The Bulwark Podcast

Episode: Anne Applebaum: The Loss of 'Democratic Faith'
Date: October 16, 2025
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Anne Applebaum (Staff Writer, The Atlantic; Author: Twilight of Democracy, Autocracy, Inc.)

Main Theme

This episode explores the erosion of democratic norms and institutions in the United States and its global repercussions. Tim Miller and Anne Applebaum discuss recent policy trends that resemble authoritarian tactics, the chilling effect on political engagement, America’s waning global leadership as a beacon of democracy, and lessons from international perspectives. They also examine recent developments in Venezuela, Ukraine, and the shifting attitudes of American and international publics toward democratic values.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Humanitarian Crisis & US Foreign Aid Cuts

• [00:12–02:55] Tim Miller opens with coverage of the brutal consequences of US aid cuts, particularly focusing on Myanmar, where children are starving due to halted rations. Anne Applebaum contextualizes this catastrophe globally, referencing her recent visit to Sudan where people were “rationing what was available because they knew what was coming.”
• Applebaum: “It’s absurd to imagine that that would have no impact. I mean, it was a monumental decision... USAID was responsible for something like 40% of the world's humanitarian aid, but a larger proportion of logistics... It was a real disaster in a lot of places.” (01:37)

2. Radical Overhaul of the US Refugee System

• [02:55–05:24] The Trump administration is contemplating reducing refugee admissions, prioritizing English speakers, white South Africans, and Europeans opposed to migration. Applebaum interprets this as not reform but a perverse redefinition of asylum, stating this approach “mocks the entire system of refugee protection.”
• Applebaum: “Defining white South Africans and Europeans who disagree with their government's migration policies as being somehow victims of human rights abuse... It's a kind of troll... a way of redefining who we are and what we do.” (03:37)

3. Authoritarian Shifts in Domestic Institutions

• Immigration (ICE & “Show Your Papers” Culture):
  • [05:59–18:28] Miller highlights incidents in Chicago and nationwide, where brown-skinned individuals are increasingly subject to invasive status checks, paralleled to authoritarian regimes.
  • Applebaum: “It’s a violation of how we’ve done law enforcement forever... The idea of having some kind of paramilitary force that wears face masks... I don’t remember that happening even in Viktor Orban’s Hungary.” (17:42)
• IRS as Political Weapon:
  • [06:59–12:25] Reports indicate the IRS is being reorganized to target Democratic donors, with plans even leaked to the media, intentionally creating a chilling effect on political participation.
  • Applebaum: “This is a threat to use the power of government... against targeted political opponents. In other words, not criminals... simply people they don’t like.” (08:55)
• Press Freedom in Decline:
  • [13:36–16:39] Applebaum and Miller discuss the Pentagon’s attempt to require reporters to accept new restrictions, leading to mass loss of access except for reliably pro-Trump outlets.
  • Applebaum: “I’m worried that the purpose of this exercise was to get everybody out of the building... and make everyone use state media.” (14:39)

4. The Erosion of America as a Democratic Model

• [18:48–26:05] Applebaum explains that historically, America’s global influence rested not only on its power but on its example at home—a rule-of-law democracy, at least in aspiration.
  • The “loss of democratic faith” affects not just foreign perception but US unity and identity.
  • Memorable Quote:
    • Applebaum quoting the Brown v. Board amicus brief: “Racial discrimination raises doubts even among friendly nations as to the intensity of our devotion to the democratic faith.” (25:22, with Miller at 25:38)
  • Today, the bipartisan commitment to those ideals is in question, causing foreign allies to rethink defense, trade, and economic ties with America.
  • Applebaum: “If that’s not what we are anymore, what are we unified around? What is the national identity?” (24:45)

5. Rising Cynicism and Global Autocracy

• [29:57–33:53] Miller and Applebaum reflect on the fading memory of democratic successes post-WWII and rising skepticism, especially among the young, about America’s role in promoting democracy—citing countercurrents on both the left and right.
  • Applebaum: “There is a coalition of autocratic states who have spent the last decade trying to... push back against the democratic world. Our language was such a big threat to them.” (32:20)

6. Ukraine and Russia—A Case Study

• [34:02–39:49]
  • Ukraine’s advances in indigenous drone warfare and the impacts on Russia’s oil and gas infrastructure are discussed.
  • The Russian economy is described as under severe strain, though without a direct democratic mechanism for that stress to alter leadership behavior.
  • Applebaum: “There will come a point eventually in Moscow... when enough people will say, this war isn’t worth it, it’s costing too much, too many have died.” (38:06)

7. Venezuela: Double-Edged Intervention

• [39:49–46:10]
  • Applebaum stresses the complexity of supporting democratic resistance against Maduro while expressing skepticism about possible intervention or “kinetic actions” and their domestic and regional implications.
  • Applebaum: “It’s really important... to keep two ideas in your mind at the same time: It is a brutal and ugly regime... and... I worry about how it will be used in the US as part of the domestic narrative.” (40:44, 45:00)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “We are seeing the United States moving away from a rule of law culture... to a rule by law culture, which is what authoritarian countries have.”
  — Anne Applebaum (06:59)

• “The IRS... was not set up to terrorize Americans. And the FBI exists to protect all of us... not to the MAGA Republicans and not to Donald Trump.”
  — Anne Applebaum (09:30)

• “I don't want to give people this feeling of hopelessness, but this is an absolutely textbook way of abusing the arms and powers of the state...”
  — Anne Applebaum (09:50)

• “If that's not what we are anymore, what are we unified around? What is the national identity? I mean, is it white people? I don't think so.”
  — Anne Applebaum (24:45)

• “It is not their fault we elected this fucking moron twice... we can't get mad at them.”
  — Tim Miller on Venezuelan exile opposition's strategy (43:07)

International Perspective: Democratic Disillusion and Backlash

• Allies Adjusting Relationships:
  • Applebaum describes how European countries are quietly “looking at how to reconfigure their security in the event that the United States is no longer an ally.”
  • (28:35)
• Loss of Political Memory:
  • Fewer people have direct recollection of “when communism fell”, and generational distance is leading to apathy or skepticism about the achievements and value of democracy.
• US Domestic Identity Crisis:
  • The abandonment of democracy promotion, or even the aspiration to it, raises existential questions for national unity.

Global Hotspots: Ukraine, Russia & Venezuela Summarized

• Ukraine:
  • Despite US wavering, Ukrainians are innovating militarily but still benefit from international support. Russian society, though strained, lacks mechanisms for quick leadership change.
• Venezuela:
  • A cruel dictatorship faces united opposition, but US interference risks being co-opted into a domestic justification for further authoritarianism at home.

Books & Personal Reflections

• Anne Applebaum Book Club:
  • Prior recommendations: The Captive Mind, The Oppermans, The Director
  • New recommendation: What We Know by Ian McEwan — a future-looking novel framing our present as a lost golden age (47:59)
• On Joy:
  • Applebaum finds joy in real-world friendships and recommends the essay “The Choice of Comrades” by Ignazio Silone for those seeking solidarity and meaning in troubled times.
  • “The only thing there is, is your friends... Find people whose values you admire and who you like and stick with them.” (49:17)

Timestamps for Major Segments

• Humanitarian aid & Myanmar/Sudan: 00:12–02:55
• US refugee overhaul and race-based preference: 02:55–05:24
• Rule by law, IRS as weapon: 05:59–12:25
• Chilling effect & donor backlash: 11:02–12:36
• Pentagon press access clampdown: 13:36–16:39
• ICE/”Show Your Papers” & international perspectives: 17:04–21:06
• America’s loss of democratic “faith” & global implications: 21:06–26:05
• Diplomatic reliability and European realignment: 28:35–29:57
• Generational cynicism, autocratic pushback: 29:57–33:53
• Ukraine, Russia, and US policy inertia: 34:02–39:49
• Venezuela: democracy, intervention, unintended effects: 39:49–46:10
• Anne Applebaum Book Club & personal joys: 46:21–50:15

Tone

Crisp, serious, and analytical throughout, with moments of dark humor and poignant reflection. Both Miller and Applebaum balance urgent concern over democratic decline with a determination not to surrender to cynicism or despair.

For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

This conversation is an essential, reality-based deep dive into the state of American democracy and its knock-on effects worldwide. It offers both alarming facts and nuanced analysis, punctuated by historical perspective, real-world anecdotes, and practical reflections on resilience and solidarity for those who still believe in democratic values.