The Bulwark Podcast: Anne Applebaum on USAID's Absence in Sudan Release Date: August 7, 2025

Hosts and Guests

• Host: Tim Miller
• Guest: Anne Applebaum, staff writer at The Atlantic and author of Autocracy Inc.

1. Introduction and Light Banter

The episode begins with a light-hearted exchange between Tim Miller and Anne Applebaum about favorite snacks, setting a relaxed tone before delving into deeper political discussions.

• Tim Miller [00:00]: Initiates a conversation about the perfect snack.
• Anne Applebaum [00:04]: Responds with preferences for convenience and quality.

2. Corporate Influence and Autocracy

The conversation shifts to the troubling interaction between CEOs and former President Donald Trump, highlighting the erosion of institutional integrity in American politics.

• Anne Applebaum [03:12]: Highlights Apple CEO Tim Cook offering a 24-karat gold plaque to Trump, likening it to Politburo gift-giving during the Soviet era. She criticizes CEOs for feeling compelled to "suck up" to Trump to avoid punitive actions.

  "CEOs of these high-tech companies, like, feeling like they need to suck up to the President or else they will be punished specifically... it's a totally insane banana republic." [03:55]

• Tim Miller [03:55]: Draws parallels between the current political climate and the Soviet Union's downfall, emphasizing the importance of apolitical institutions for economic success.

  "The idea that politics has become so personalized... contradicts everything that the founders intended when they wrote the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution." [05:20]

• Anne Applebaum [06:52]: Discusses the culture of fear in American boardrooms, where executives are wary of opposing the leader, mirroring autocratic tendencies.

  "There is a culture of fear, I think, in boardrooms around the country where we cannot get crosswise with the leader." [06:52]

3. Reciprocal Tariffs

Tim Miller updates listeners on the implementation of reciprocal tariffs affecting various countries, emphasizing the unpredictability and economic repercussions of such policies.

• Tim Miller [15:23]: Details the reciprocal tariffs imposed on countries like Brazil, Syria, Laos, Myanmar, and others, questioning the logic and potential fallout.

  "The whimsical nature of it... it's almost like you have this on the other side of the planet, there's this huge reaction and people lose their jobs. It's very disturbing." [17:35]

• Anne Applebaum [17:30]: Adds a sarcastic remark about possible personal dislikes Trump may have for Switzerland, highlighting the arbitrary nature of tariff decisions.

  "Trump would look kind of silly in a skiing outfit. So maybe it's something about that. It's an aesthetic." [17:35]

4. Ukraine Conflict Updates

Anne Applebaum and Tim Miller analyze the ongoing conflict in Ukraine, questioning Putin’s commitment to ending the war and the geopolitical implications of potential peace negotiations.

• Tim Miller [20:24]: Argues that Putin has never intended to end the war and continues to pursue the subjugation of Ukraine, citing recent aggressive rhetoric.

  "He is still using that kind of language... he still thinks that there are allies." [20:24]

• Anne Applebaum [22:44]: References an article suggesting Putin's aim is to secure a peace deal that aligns with his geopolitical goals, particularly keeping Ukraine out of NATO.

  "Do we think that's what Putin's aims are? I don't know. What do you think?" [22:44]

• Tim Miller [23:12]: Disputes the notion that NATO is the primary concern for Putin, instead highlighting his ideological opposition to Ukrainian independence and democracy.

  "For Putin, Ukraine is an ideological problem... the idea that Ukraine is not Russia and won't be, then I don't think the war is really over." [25:20]

5. Sudan Civil War and USAID Cuts

The core of the episode revolves around the devastating impact of USAID's abrupt withdrawal from Sudan, exacerbating the ongoing civil war and humanitarian crisis.

• Tim Miller [29:02]: Describes the chaotic state of Sudan, where the absence of the U.S. and other international actors has led to an exacerbated civil war fueled by external powers seeking resources.

  "The state has effectively disappeared. There's a civil war. They're basically parts of what used to be Sudanese military fighting each other." [29:02]

• Anne Applebaum [37:05]: Questions whether the U.S. absence is the sole factor worsening Sudan’s situation, noting that similar conflicts existed even with more U.S. involvement.

  "What is appreciably worse, like the US's absence is notable... but how meaningful was the difference when there was more international engagement." [37:54]

• Tim Miller [37:54]: Emphasizes the crash of USAID, detailing how its sudden termination dismantled crucial humanitarian aid infrastructure, leading to severe shortages and chaos on the ground.

  "The provision of food, this is not democracy promotion... was hugely important. The abrupt, disastrous way that it ended... meant disasters." [42:54]

• Anne Applebaum [42:54]: Expresses frustration over the U.S. prioritizing trivial matters over humanitarian crises, indirectly referencing inflated budgets for non-essential activities.

  "We had to raise the river because it was a little too low. So we spent 50 million on Trump's golf trips. So priorities are pretty important." [42:54]

6. Personal Stories and Human Resilience

Despite the grim situation in Sudan, Anne Applebaum and Tim Miller highlight the resilience and idealism of the Sudanese people striving to rebuild and care for their communities amidst chaos.

• Tim Miller [44:04]: Shares poignant anecdotes of Sudanese individuals who remain hopeful and continue to organize humanitarian efforts like soup kitchens, even in the face of extreme adversity.

  "You meet amazingly idealistic people... it's a kind of miracle that I keep uncovering in different parts." [44:04]

• Anne Applebaum [48:29]: Acknowledges the emotional toll on those assisting in Sudan but underscores the unwavering spirit of the local population.

  "How do they go on...? It's a conflict about nothing, really... How do they go on?" [48:29]

7. Book Recommendations

The episode concludes with Tim Miller recommending insightful books that explore themes of autocracy and resistance.

• Tim Miller [47:33]: Recommends "The Director" by Daniel Kellerman, a novel about a German anti-Nazi film director navigating post-war Hollywood and returning to Nazi Germany.

  "It's about how do you readjust?" [48:02]

• Anne Applebaum [48:29]: Expresses appreciation for the book recommendations and shares her admiration for Anne's literary contributions.

8. Conclusion

The episode wraps up with warm exchanges between Tim Miller and Anne Applebaum, expressing gratitude and anticipation for future discussions.

• Anne Applebaum [48:29]: Thanks her guest and hints at future appearances.

  "I appreciate you so much... We'll have you back again soon, I hope." [48:29]

• Tim Miller [48:36]: Signs off as the podcast credits roll.

Key Takeaways

• Erosion of Institutional Integrity: The personalized politics exemplified by CEOs gifting Trump undermine democratic institutions and promote autocratic tendencies.

• Impact of USAID Withdrawal: Sudden cessation of USAID's operations in Sudan has led to severe humanitarian crises, highlighting the critical role of consistent international aid.

• Complexity of International Conflicts: The Sudanese civil war illustrates the chaos resulting from the absence of a liberal world order, with multiple external powers exacerbating the conflict for their gains.

• Resilience Amidst Chaos: Despite overwhelming challenges, the Sudanese people demonstrate remarkable resilience and a commitment to rebuilding their society.

Notable Quotes

• Anne Applebaum [03:12]:

  "CEOs of these high-tech companies, like, feeling like they need to suck up to the President or else they will be punished specifically."

• Tim Miller [05:20]:

  "The idea that politics has become so personalized... contradicts everything that the founders intended when they wrote the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution."

• Anne Applebaum [06:52]:

  "There is a culture of fear, I think, in boardrooms around the country where we cannot get crosswise with the leader."

• Tim Miller [15:23]:

  "The whimsical nature of it... it's almost like you have this on the other side of the planet, there's this huge reaction and people lose their jobs. It's very disturbing."

• Anne Applebaum [22:44]:

  "Do we think that's what Putin's aims are? I don't know. What do you think?"

• Tim Miller [25:20]:

  "Unless there's a Russian acknowledgment of Ukraine's right to exist... then I don't think the war is really over."

• Tim Miller [37:54]:

  "The provision of food... was hugely important. The abrupt, disastrous way that it ended... meant disasters."

• Tim Miller [44:04]:

  "You meet amazingly idealistic people... it's a kind of miracle that I keep uncovering in different parts."

Produced by: Katie Cooper
Audio Engineering and Editing: Jason Brown