Ashley St. Clair and Cameron Kasky: Leaving the MAGA Cult

Summary

The Bulwark Podcast

Episode: Ashley St. Clair and Cameron Kasky: Leaving the MAGA Cult
Air Date: March 17, 2026
Host: Tim Miller
Guests: Ashley St. Clair, Cameron Kasky

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Overview

In this double-header episode, Tim Miller talks with two former youth activists who have stepped away from their earlier political identities:
Part 1: Ashley St. Clair — ex-TPUSA provocateur, former right-wing influencer, and mother of one of Elon Musk’s children — shares her journey from being deep in the MAGA movement to breaking away and now leading public legal fights regarding AI harms and online harassment.
Part 2: Cameron Kasky — cofounder of March for Our Lives and former candidate for New York’s 12th congressional district — discusses his recent fact-finding trip to Palestine, his work on human rights legislation, and the tectonic shifts in progressive and Democratic politics.

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Part 1: Ashley St. Clair—Leaving the MAGA Cult

Ashley’s “Villain Origin Story”

[02:41-04:24]

• Began activism in college campus groups like Young Americans for Liberty before joining Turning Point USA.
• Attracted attention for being the “token conservative” and was drawn to the “contrarian” appeal and the online validation that came with being provocative.
• The digital ecosystem provided instant feedback: “You're 18, nobody’s listening to you, and suddenly you have 10,000, 40,000 [followers]... all of these people are liking my things. They think I'm important, they think I'm smart. That was formative for me.” (Ashley, [05:48])

The Mechanics of Right-Wing Influencer Culture

[06:39-11:28]

• Early amplification by figures like Mike Cernovich and Jack Posobiec led to rapid growth.
• Much of the right-wing influencer sphere is “subsidized by wealthy donors” through hard-to-trace payments for content, promotion of cabinet picks, or political messaging.
• “There’s a lot of dark money groups… they will pay you just to put out messaging. And there’s no rules… to even put notification that it’s an ad because it’s just messaging.” (Ashley, [10:53])

Monetization, College Dropout, and Vulnerabilities

[09:03-10:47]

• Dropped out of college encouraged by movement rhetoric that devalues higher education, something she later regretted.
• “I have regrets that I repeated those talking points that people shouldn't go to school... There's something similar to an abusive relationship, where if you quit your job, you can't leave—it keeps people within that cycle.” (Ashley, [09:27])
• Most of her income came from campaign or production work, not direct influencer monetization.

Manipulation and Echo Chambers

[07:14-08:17]

• Discussed the “nut picking” tendency—seeking out caricatures of the opposition to confirm bias and feed outrage.
• “It kind of feeds into itself where you want to find [the crazy leftist] to show everyone that it's real. And you have veterans ... saying, ‘good job, patriot.’ That makes you feel important.” (Ashley, [07:40-08:18])

The Elon Musk Chapter

[12:50-18:37]

• St. Clair recounted her entry into Musk’s orbit and the surreal scale of his influence.
• “You know, you're kind of like, I have girl bossed way too close to the sun...” ([16:51])
• She discussed the mix of philosophical and extravagant conversations, the intoxicating nature of proximity to “something so much bigger,” and the eventual awakening to red flags—both personal and societal.
• “There's red flags where you're like, this could harm a lot of people.” ([17:01])
• On Musk’s constant posting: “He posts all night. Yes, it's all him. All his posts are written by him.” ([17:46])

Legal Battles & AI Harms

[21:14-26:27]

• Ashley is now embroiled in legal battles with Musk, both over child custody and over XAI products generating AI-generated porn and non-consensual images.
• She described discovering AI-manipulated nudes of herself—as well as minors—propagated by “GROK,” Musk’s company.
• “Within our lawsuit against xai... anybody with an X account needs to know that you may be jeopardizing your chances at holding this company accountable.” ([23:52])
• Warned about the ways X’s terms of service can limit victims’ ability to sue.
• Noted that issues remain rampant and little has changed in company behavior.

Reflections on MAGA, Manipulation, and Regret

[27:49-29:29]

• “It was very helpful to get off the Internet for a while... your access to information, frankly lived reality, is really important for having views outside of these things.” (Ashley, [27:49])
• Noted how individuals can feel “stuck,” especially if their community and economic identity are tied up in the movement.
• “There is also a mass manipulation campaign going on. I don’t think that should be downplayed... More and more of these tech bros buying up our media platforms because it’s so valuable to hold your attention and hold the keys to perception.” ([29:29])

Examples of What’s Gone Wrong

[29:36-32:23]

• Ashley pointed to ICE, the economy, foreign policy, and Trump’s betrayals as areas where she feels the “movement” has become egregiously out of step with its selling points.
• “What's happening with ICE... we're having people who cared about immigration and we have Trump gold cards and normal people are being rounded up and sent to El Salvador. It's disgusting. We have American citizens being shot on the streets by ICE.” ([29:36])

On How to Reach Women Leaving MAGA

[39:45-42:06]

• “The right has a big issue festering underneath in terms of the sentiment against women... A lot of women from the right keep in communication with me... they're waking up to the fact that they've also been had, that they've been used as pawns.”
• “It is a cult. And what you have to understand is in any abusive relationship… your access to other people, you're very isolated.” (Ashley, [40:37])
• Advised compassion and “holding space” for reformed members, regardless of how late they may come to awareness.

Her Evolution and Core Values

[45:07-46:32]

• “I would say no” (to holding onto any MAGA elements). Her remaining values—for example, supporting free speech—are “just American,” not maga.
• Sees the movement’s wealth and power up close: “To be in the rooms with the wealthiest people in the world and they're talking about socialism being handouts... that kind of flips a switch in you.”

Notable Quotes

• “I have girl bossed way too close to the sun.” (Ashley, [16:51])
• “It actually is a good thing to grow and say, ‘I was really wrong and I'm sorry, and let's all try to have a clearer picture of what's happening right now.’” (Ashley, [37:59])
• “These very lukewarm (Democratic) candidates who aren’t offering accountability... Democrats need to take a hard look and start offering more social programs and holding these corporations accountable.” ([46:59])

Memorable Moments

• On the “harem”: “I wish the harem would unionize, honestly... but he's quite the union buster.” (Ashley on Musk, [18:20])
• On parenting: “My son has said that he has crabs in his pocket that he will throw at people if they’re not wearing green. So the crabs are doing the pinching.” ([50:44])

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Part 2: Cameron Kasky — From Activism to Palestine, Progressive Primary Politics

Trip to Palestine, West Bank

[54:03-62:00]

• Kasky’s first-ever trip abroad (at the suggestion of critics): “A lot of people in my district were saying, well, if you care so much about the people over in Palestine, why don’t you go over there and see how they feel about you, Jewish boy. So I went over there and it turns out they like me way more than they like me in my congressional district.” ([54:03])
• Described life under occupation: checkpoints, settler violence, raids, and infrastructure choked off from communities.
• “The West Bank operation is very much death by a thousand cuts... It's a slower, more meticulous process that involves going after water sources, energy grids, all these different things...” ([56:15])

Human Rights Legislation

[62:00-65:44]

• Working with Ro Khanna on a resolution targeting the ongoing abuses in the West Bank: settlement demolition, land confiscation under “archeology” pretexts, infrastructure that isolates Palestinian communities.
• “Every single bullet fired by Israeli forces... we’re all chipping into that, you know. And I can't say the same thing about Barbecue's gang in Port Au Prince.” (Cameron, discussing US funding, [65:28])

Progressive Primaries & Outside Money

[65:48-73:08]

• Discussed the outsize influence of AIPAC, AI, and crypto money in Democratic primaries from Illinois to New York.
• On influencers being paid to shift public opinion: “Influencers getting paid $1,500 per post to shit-talk Kat [Abu Ghazale].” ([71:11])
• On AI lobbies: “My AI take is basically destroy every AI data center. Alex Borres is like, make sure your children aren’t making child porn on AI. Apparently he’s just like this huge fucking threat to them.” ([72:01])

Redemptive Power and Political Change

[74:38-78:58]

• On redemption and growth: “One of the most classic themes in a story of all time is: can a man change?... All of the happy stories end with the answer yes, and all of the tragedies end with no… I think a lot of people want to believe in the redemptive power of the human spirit.” (Cameron, [74:38])
• Relevance for ex-MAGA figures, and people grappling with their own transformation: “If we were all defined by our lowest moments, we would not be in good positions. Anybody listening to this can think of the worst decisions you've ever made... If somebody tried to say, that's you, that's who you are, you would say, absolutely not.” ([78:28])

Notable Quotes

• “I have no idea whether that will work. Like, I truly don’t.” (Tim, on negative campaign ads in the current environment, [74:38])
• “If we were all defined by our lowest moments, we would not be in good positions.” (Cameron, [78:28])
• “It's not moggable.” (Cameron, on the podcast’s lack of "looksmaxxing" appeal, [79:36])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Ashley’s origin story & online rise: [02:41-07:40]

• Right-wing influencer economy: [05:48-12:08]

• On leaving MAGA/echo chambers: [27:49-31:14]

• AI “GROK” lawsuit & terms of service warnings: [21:14-24:37]

• Critiques of Trumpism/growing disillusionment: [29:36-32:23]

• On reaching out to ex-MAGA women: [39:45-42:06]

• Advice to Democrats: [46:59]

• Ashley’s reflection & hopes for her children: [49:28-50:44]

• Kasky’s Palestine trip & human rights bill: [54:03-65:44]

• Democratic primaries, outside money: [65:48-73:08]

• Redemption and change: [74:38-79:35]

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Tone & Takeaways

The episode is candid, introspective, and at times irreverent. Both St. Clair and Kasky exhibit humility regarding their own missteps, and offer an insider perspective on manipulation, media ecosystems, and the difficulty of breaking free from ideological “cults.”
St. Clair’s journey is a cautionary tale about the seductive power of online affirmation, the danger of dark money, and the need for real accountability in tech. Kasky’s work highlights the international human impact of American policy—and how reform requires not only clear-eyed advocacy, but a willingness to reassess personal and political positions.

Memorable closing note from Ashley:
“My son has said that he has crabs in his pocket that he will throw at people if they're not wearing green. So the crabs are doing the pinching. He's outsourced the pinching to his minion crabs.” ([50:44], Ashley St. Clair)

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For listeners:
This story isn’t just about two “leavers”—it’s a guide to understanding how identity, ideology, and disinformation become entwined, and why breaking away is both harrowing and essential. The episode invites both empathy for the process of change, and urgency in confronting the machinery that exploits online communities and American politics.

Transcript

[Tim Miller]

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[Ashley St. Clair]

to save the sun shining, birds are singing, and all feels right in the

[Tim Miller]

world until the season changes and suddenly you lose your motivation to get out of bed. In fact, one in five people experience some form of depression no matter the season or time of year.

[Ashley St. Clair]

At the American Psychiatric association foundation, our vision is to build a mentally healthy nation for all because we want you to live your best life and be your best you all all year round.

[Cameron Caskey]

Please visit mentallyhealthynation.org to learn more.

[Tim Miller]

Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We have a double header for you today of former child activists or youth youth activists in politics. In segment two, it's my old buddy Cam Caskey off the campaign trail. He's working on a bill in Congress I want to talk to him about. But up first. She was a former right wing influencer with TPUSA and others and a writer. She's also the mother of one of Elon Musk's children. It's Ashley St. Clair and who apparently watches the Bulwark Podcast. And you know, we're we're meeting now. This is our first meet. We've been dming. How's it going, Ashley?

[Ashley St. Clair]

It's going. My mother is also a big fan of the Bulwark Podcast.

[Tim Miller]

Oh really?

[Ashley St. Clair]

Yes, she is. So I appreciate you guys holding space for the more moderate.

[Tim Miller]

Where does she live? Where are you from? I don't actually even know.

[Ashley St. Clair]

She's in Colorado now. But we are not from Colorado. But a lot of my family's out there.

[Tim Miller]

My people. Yeah, we're all transfired to Colorado.

[Ashley St. Clair]

She'll be seeing Erica Kirk visiting the Air Force Academy.

[Tim Miller]

Oh Lord. Okay, well, much to get into on TP USA for people who don't know who are like, oh my God, God, I just heard that introduction. I've never heard Ashley Sinclair's name. And we have viewers and listeners who are not on social media who are not following the influencer wars on the right. And so for those folks Give us the first date. How did you emerge? What's your villain origin story?

[Ashley St. Clair]

My villain origin story is I started really on campus with these campus groups like Young Americans for Liberty as soon as I got into college Fresh. And then I got involved with Turning Point and I was tweeting, and it just kind of snowballed from there. It was within a few months that I was invited to my first Turning Point event, that I was meeting Charlie Kirk, that I was doing events in Colorado, and then it just snowballed.

[Tim Miller]

It snowballed. So where were you on campus?

[Ashley St. Clair]

I was in Colorado. University of Colorado in Colorado Springs. So it was a smaller campus and there was some appeal to the provocateur nature of rolling a free speech ball around campus.

[Tim Miller]

And is that a lib campus going to Colorado Springs? Because Colorado Springs is kind of conservative.

[Ashley St. Clair]

More conservative. But the campus was definitely more liberal. Like all of the heads of the philosophy department when I first came, there were petitioning for Donald Trump to not speak on campus, which, you know, in retrospect, they were probably correct about. But in that moment, I was like, this is philosophy. We're supposed to hold court for all opinions.

[Tim Miller]

So, yeah. So that was what appealed to you? Kind of like contrary and sticking your finger in the eye of the professors that wanted to tell you to follow various woke pieties. Or was there something else that appealed to you about it?

[Ashley St. Clair]

Yeah, it was, you know, you're the token conservative in the class, which I found engaging to some respect. But it was also, you're young and 18, and you get a lot of attention on social media by being provocative in some sense.

[Tim Miller]

So how did that start. You started posting and then TPUSA would just from a process standpoint, because there's a lot of discussion about this, particularly on the left. And when I went to the last. I didn't go this past year to America Fest because given after Charlie was killed and everything, it just was too much for me to take. But the year before, I went to the Turning Point festival at the end of the year, and I'd been going every year, and I wrote, you know, pretty mean assessment of the substance of what I was hearing at the festival.

[Ashley St. Clair]

Was it mean or accurate?

[Tim Miller]

Accurate. Mean and accurate. You know, accurately mean about the just hateful bullshit that was coming from the stage. But before I did that, I started by just saying, like, you have to. You do have to give credit where do. Like, there is no version of this on the left. It kind of emerged from nothing. Like, it emerged from the ether. Like the. You Know, during the Obama era and the Bush era, when I was on campus, like, was just a very lefty space. The college Republicans were very dorky and a very minority part of the campus. Like, and tps, they changed that. And, like, they brought a lot of people there to the festival. Like, the crowd is huge. There are people there that aren't particularly political, who are young, who they had engaged. As far as just their mission was concerned, it was a success. Just looking at it as, like, a political organizing tool. But one thing I don't have, like, visibility into is, like, how they, like, recruited ambassadors like you. Like, what was that process like? Was that organic or.

[Ashley St. Clair]

So I was just kind of shit posting online on Twitter, and then Mike Cernovic actually found me, and him and Jack the Sobic started sharing my tweets, my periscopes, my lives, and it just. Twitter was very ripe for reply. Guy bullying, in a way. So, you know, you're replying to AOC and replying to Elizabeth Warren, and it just kind of blows up in a way that you don't expect because you're 18 and nobody's listening to you, and suddenly you have 10,000, 40,000. You remember when you hit those milestones, you're envisioning that many people in a room. You're like, oh, my goodness, all of these people are liking my things. They think I'm important, they think I'm smart. And especially when you're just getting a sense of identity in your youth, like, freshly 18, that was formative for me.

[Tim Miller]

So, like, were you monetizing it like, when you're in college?

[Ashley St. Clair]

Not particularly. Eventually I got into I'll sell a T shirt or this or that, but I didn't really monetize it in the same mode that a lot of other people did. I worked behind the scenes. So I also worked on campaigns at 18 and door knocking and, you know, cleaning up the door knocking data and donor events, that sort of thing. So primarily, my mode of income was a bit different than most influencers. I kept normal jobs as opposed to doing a podcast.

[Tim Miller]

So I was looking at some of your early material, and it's a lot of nut picking. You know, I mean, there's some nutty leftists, okay, don't get me wrong. But, you know, it's a lot of, like, Ashley St. Clair confronts deranged leftist. You know, that's like a lot of what it was. So, like, when you were doing that, was it like, how much of it were you like, I really believe this stuff. How much of it was like wwe, you know, just like, talk about that.

[Ashley St. Clair]

I think it's very circular too, because you're told that these things exist and that there's this caricature of the left and that they're all crazy and they're all deranged and they all have the purple hair and whatever. And then when you see it, you're like, I found it. It is real. Look, guys, it's real. So I think there's that then where it kind of feeds into itself where you wanted to find it to show everyone that it's real. And then there is, you know, you have veterans who are coming up to you saying, like, good job, patriot. And that makes you feel a bit more important or like you're doing.

[Tim Miller]

You're giving thanks.

[Ashley St. Clair]

Some real on the ground soldier work.

[Tim Miller]

People are thanking you. Mostly men, I'm assuming.

[Ashley St. Clair]

Yes, yes.

[Tim Miller]

Older men.

[Ashley St. Clair]

Yes. Older men with vet thanking you.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. So I could see how you would take that as like, wow, like, I am doing important work, actually.

[Ashley St. Clair]

Yes, yes. And the work in question is tweeting.

[Tim Miller]

But also some YouTube did some videos, you know, man on the street stuff.

[Ashley St. Clair]

You know, I think I've. I've put that away in my brain.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, that happened. I watched some of them, and some of the leftists that were yelling at you were deranged, but I don't know what you were saying off camera.

[Ashley St. Clair]

So anyway, I was very nice in person.

[Tim Miller]

So then you drop out of school?

[Ashley St. Clair]

Yes, I drop out of school.

[Tim Miller]

This is like the classic conundrum of the whole Charlie Kirk thing is he was college dropout also. Then he's organizing on college campuses, and then now it's like all the red states want to build statues to him on college campuses. And it's kind of like, see what you want about Charlie, like, nice or otherwise. Like, the school part of it wasn't really the part that was being fostered, sort of.

[Ashley St. Clair]

And I do have regrets that I repeated those talking points that people shouldn't go to school because I'm back in school now and I have two kids. So it's. It's a lot more difficult to do after you have children. But there's also something that's very similar to when you're in a relationship and the guy tells you, you know, quit your job and don't do this. But then if you want to leave, you don't have any mode to make income. You don't have the same ability. And I think that's really similar on the right, where they tell these kids you know, you don'. Need to do that. You can make money in right wing politics or start your own show or sell your own merch, but then if they leave, that source of income is, is gone. So it kind of keeps people within that cycle more than it would if they had a career or education outside of it.

[Tim Miller]

So that's what you did after you dropped out. It was just full time influencer stuff. Yeah. So then during that part, were you like actually making money through your own content or rich people subsidizing you?

[Ashley St. Clair]

It was decent money, but again, I wasn't making much money from my content. I was just working behind the scenes. So I worked on campaigns, I worked in fundraising, I worked in production doing Republican ads. I always had a decent salary job that I was primarily making income from.

[Tim Miller]

But that is a thing out there, right? Like there are some of these. Right. Real influencers are like kind of subsidized by.

[Ashley St. Clair]

Yes. Very, very wealthy donors and where you can't really track the money. There's a lot of dark money groups on the right as well and influencer apparatuses where they will pay you just to put out messaging. And there's no rules right now to even put notification that it's an ad because it's just messaging. So there's, there's a lot. A large portion of the right wing influencer space is paid in one way or another for whether it's opinions or pushing certain cabinet picks, they make money for all of it.

[Tim Miller]

Can I say this is going to be the story of the 2028 campaign, by the way. It's like paid influencers and AI influencers. And that is happening on the, the right is way ahead on that, but this is happening now on the left too. I talked to Cam about the Illinois primary in the second segment, but I saw like, you know, some influencer. It's like the woke ginger or something is like getting paid to support some candidate and it's not disclosed, you know, in the primary. And I get people sending me all the time, like random influencers who are saying this and saying that. Like people have to be really careful out there with like, if you're just following a random person with an Instagram account, like maybe that person is, is just earnest and viral or like maybe not.

[Ashley St. Clair]

And yes. Yeah, back during the election I was offered money to promote like Rick Grinnell for Secretary of State. I mean they, they do all of this. I was like, no, thank you. But this was, this was very much a thing and they were offering a lot of money. Tim.

[Tim Miller]

To promote Rick Grinnell for Secretary of State.

[Ashley St. Clair]

Yes, yes. And as I'm given this offer, I see all of a sudden these people pushing Rick Grenell for Secretary of State. And I'm like, you're paid, you're paid, you're paid. But this happens all the time with everything from support for certain bills to support for cabinet picks. And there is a lot of money that is difficult for many people to turn down.

[Tim Miller]

It's pretty delicious that people are trying to pay to get Rick Grenell in Secretary of State. And instead he got stereotyped and put as the gay in charge of the theater. And then he was fired from the theater for being too mean, too big of a dick. That's a shame. That's quite a negative trajectory for Rick Grinnell. So let's do the Elon origin story. And I guess I should say before we get to this, you have an ongoing custody battle with the richest guy in the world, or the second richest, whatever he is. Now, I obviously don't want to do anything that puts that in any jeopardy. And so anything that you can't say, please, no stress. Your original encounter with Elon, though, according to this article, was based on a gay best friend who was showing you a lot of rocket videos. And I don't know, I think having a rocket gay as a friend was maybe your first mistake. But tell us about what happened.

[Ashley St. Clair]

He loved the launches, the SpaceX launches. And, you know, you're kind of exposed to them, like, throughout, because he was a very big, larger than life figure, Elon. So I was exposed through little things like that. And obviously I had friends who liked Tesla and my rocket gay. Loved showing me lawn.

[Tim Miller]

We're not psychology there. We're just going to move forward.

[Ashley St. Clair]

No. So, but besides that, I didn't really have much interest in what he was doing until he was buying Twitter and I was like, yes, free speech. Because I hated Jack Dorsey at the time.

[Tim Miller]

So, like, how does one go about meeting Elon Musk? I'm trying to think to myself, like, I don't even know how I would do that. Like, if I were to, say a gay that, like, liked Peter Thiel instead of thinking that he was the Antichrist. I'm not exactly sure how I would, how I would go about that. Like, so what? How does that happen?

[Ashley St. Clair]

He had reached out and, you know, asked if I was ever in San Francisco or Austin, and I had told him, you know, I'm in Austin quite a bit, but I'm supposed to be in San Francisco. Whenever you get back to Seth at the time was my boss. Boss from the Babylon B about an interview date at Twitter headquarters. And within, like, a couple minutes, I'm getting a text from Seth saying, elon got back about the interview. We're going to go to San Francisco in, like, 48 hours.

[Tim Miller]

Got it.

[Ashley St. Clair]

So that's how I ended up meeting him.

[Tim Miller]

It's like, how much time did y' all spend together during that period?

[Ashley St. Clair]

A decent amount of time.

[Tim Miller]

Okay. And so there's a lot of discussion out there right now. Megyn Kelly talking about Mark Levin's micropenis. And I'm just wondering if there's any.

[Ashley St. Clair]

I don't know anything about Mark. I don't know anything about Mark Levin's penis.

[Tim Miller]

So you can't compare and contrast.

[Ashley St. Clair]

I can't compare and contrast.

[Tim Miller]

What is it? I guess I'm just like, what is it like? Let's just put aside the politics for a second. He's constantly tweeting. He's just this figure over here for me. I interviewed Walter Isaacson about this, and it's kind of like he doesn't seem like he sleeps. He's tweeting all night. He's very manic. He has 13 children, multiple ex wives. I don't understand how he. What is it like to be in his orbit?

[Ashley St. Clair]

You know, when I first met him, I thought he was very interesting, especially I was 23, 24 at the time. And guys my age are not talking about philosophy or Schopenhauer or.

[Tim Miller]

He's talking about Schopenhauer.

[Ashley St. Clair]

Yes, to a degree. So, you know, finding someone who could speak about something, and at the time, you think this individual is a part of something so much bigger than themselves, and they're fighting the good fight. You know, that's very intoxicating to a young girl who's.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Ashley St. Clair]

Does not have a fully developed prefrontal cortex at the time. So I think there's. There's been a difference in my view, since I've developed that.

[Tim Miller]

And at some point during that, you had to be like, I'm in too deep on this thing.

[Ashley St. Clair]

Yeah. You're kind of like, I have girl bossed way too close to the sun, and you start recognizing things again. I can't speak too much about anything.

[Tim Miller]

Sure.

[Ashley St. Clair]

Because there's probably four attorneys paid two grand an hour to watch this. But you see the red flags that you're like, oh, yeah, I'm. I should probably protect myself. And it's also, there's. There's red flags that you see that are not just personal relationship red flags, but red flags where you're like, this could harm a lot of people. This is a lot bigger than myself. These red flags are indicative of greater harm to a lot of people in the country, a lot of people in the world. So. So I think that was also an internal battle in my head where I'm like, am I reading too much into this, or is this genuinely dangerous?

[Tim Miller]

He is posting all night.

[Ashley St. Clair]

He posts all that? Yes, it's all him. All his posts are written by him.

[Tim Miller]

You didn't get to ghost any of them during your moments. You didn't get to ghost.

[Ashley St. Clair]

There were a couple that came out of my mouth, and he was laughing and then typing them down immediately. So he does have muses for some of his late night.

[Tim Miller]

I did really love Grimes. I guess I don't. I don't know her at all, but I liked her music, and I liked her video about eating spaghetti. Do you like. Do you guys have, like, a support network now?

[Ashley St. Clair]

You know, I wish the. I wish the harem would unionize, honestly. But at this point. But, you know, he's quite the union buster. I do. I feel deeply for Claire and Grimes, but I do love her music as well.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, maybe we can get them all together if you're out there. Grimes. She talks about Chopin hour, I think, Right? Aura Frames. We've been talking about that. Another gift for all occasions and any person. Sometimes it's hard to think about what you want to get somebody if it's the person you have to buy something for. Every year. I know. Coming up on Mother's Day. Mother's Day is not far away. Can you believe that? It comes around every year. You have to come up with the Mother's Day gift. It's a challenge if you're like me. My mother's birthday. It's like the same week as Mother's Day. Most years, two gifts. Some years I fail. Sorry, Mom. If that is an issue for you in your life, whether it be your mother, grandmother, aunt, cousin, coworker, Aura Frames is great. Aura Frames offers free unlimited storage. You can add as many photos and videos as you want. You can preload the photos before it ships. Personalize your gift. It's got a great gift box included. If you're not a rapper like me, can share photos and videos effortlessly. So you're updating your gift throughout the year. This is awesome. Particularly for family members live out of state. You send them something, keep them updated on, you know, the latest silly photos from their grandkid. Or great niece or nephew or whatever it is. Named number one by Wirecutter, you can save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com for a limited time. Listeners can get $35 off their bestselling cover map frame with code bulwark. That's auraframes.com, promo code bulwark. Support the by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. I want to go forward to kind of the news around what's happening on X and all that, but as it stands now, obviously I can't talk about the details, but, like, you guys are still embroiled in a. In a lawsuit where he's trying to.

[Ashley St. Clair]

Up to you.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Multiple. Multiple lawsuits. That's tough. That's got, I guess, putting aside the specifics of the Elon thing, like, that's like, how do you, like, deal with that mentally? Like, it's got to be tough to think, like, think about all of the assets and resources and friends that he has. I don't know. That's got to be intimidating.

[Ashley St. Clair]

It is. But I also think people need to fight back. I think it's very important to have that endurance, especially when it comes to legal fights. Half of the battle with a legal fight is just an endurance task. They try to run you out with these attorneys, but you too can read the laws in which they cite to you, and half of the time they're incorrect. So I don't take them as seriously as they would like to be taken, which I think is. Is helpful.

[Tim Miller]

And you're in law school now, right?

[Ashley St. Clair]

I. I will be starting in the fall.

[Tim Miller]

Starting in the fall. Congrats. Thanks. So you can go through the briefs yourself.

[Ashley St. Clair]

If I. If I have to be in court for this long, I might as well make sure 18 of them are with Esq after my name.

[Tim Miller]

So I love that One of your suits not related to your kid is about what is happening on X with regards to porn. This is news also breaking this morning. There are multiple additional lawsuits from teen girls who were. I guess they had pictures of themselves in clothes posted on social media, and GROK took off their clothes and made it seem like they were nude pictures of them. That happened to you as well. Talk about what's happening with those suits and the status.

[Ashley St. Clair]

So back in late December, GROK was unleashed onto the public with a new image generation manipulation feature in which it was able to undress women and children and anybody, really, but primarily women and children were targeted by this. And so myself, I found countless photos of me undressed, bent over Covered in white fluids and real life. Life aspects of my life were in these photos as well. It had my real face, it had my real kids items in the background. It had my home. And the only thing that was different was my clothes being removed or bent over or covered in whatever. So we're suing XAI now in New York for a variety of different issues. One is product liability because they shouldn't have released this product onto the public. ChatGPT is not doing this. I've not been victimized by ChatGPT or Claude undressing me. And as you mentioned, now there's three teens suing in. In that suit. They cite that one of the girls, two of them are under 18 and one of them had their yearbook photo taken and undressed and Grok undressed this minor. It happened to me as well in some of these photos. I was 14 years old and they undressed me. For everyone else it needs to be stopped. But what I want people to understand is right now, within our lawsuit against xai, first they, they tried saying that we are bound by the X terms of service and that if we want to sue, we have to go to this one rinky dink court in Bumblefuck Texas, where the only judge owns Tesla stocks. That didn't quite work. So now they're trying to hold me to the X terms of service. So if anybody has an X account, you need to know that they you may be jeopardizing your chances at holding this company or any of its affiliates accountable. Because this is the game that they play. I have not used X since.

[Tim Miller]

Explain that. Why? Why would that jeopardize you?

[Ashley St. Clair]

So they claim within their very laborious terms of service on X, they say that if you want to take action against X or any of its affiliates, which could be Elon Musk himself, it could be Tesla, it could be space X.

[Tim Miller]

Sure.

[Ashley St. Clair]

Who knows at this point. Doge, what have you. Your claims are limited TO I believe $100 and you have to take it in the Northern district of Texas so use of this platform. They are trying to claim that me even viewing the terms of service page is ascension to the terms of service. And there's you know like eight Harvard trained attorneys trying to make this argument. So anyone who has an X account really needs to know what they're signing up for here. And then if they want to take action, one, you should do it as a Jane Doe and two, you should be deleting your account.

[Tim Miller]

Wow. And is this still like it's ongoing? Has Grok fixed this. Are people still being.

[Ashley St. Clair]

To my knowledge, it's still happening. It's still happening. Especially on the standalone Grok app and website. They have not fixed these parameters to my knowledge and there's still images of me circulating, but there's not really any good way for me to find every image that they have. Unless first of all I can't go on the platform because they're suing me for $75,000 minimum. But it's. How do you even find them?

[Tim Miller]

There's other porn on X, you know, and like Elon is branding the Grok as, you know, the AI that isn't going to be woke or whatever, you know, and so it doesn't seem like it's an accident. I guess this is hopefully something we learned in your discovery. But it doesn't, you know, this doesn't seem like an oversight situation.

[Ashley St. Clair]

No, because they could have and around. When Linda Yakarina, the former CEO of X resigned, she amidst within the 24 to 48 hours that she resigned, she was the victim of rape fantasy. So as will stancil by Grok and they didn't do anything and this was just text based. So they were aware that these things were happening and they did, they did nothing. XAI has an issue because nobody really wanted to play with Grok. It was, you know, the odd kid on the playground that nobody really wanted to hang out with. Everyone else was surpassing Xai in terms of the AI race. And now all of a sudden during this funding round they have this, this feature unleashed in which usage spikes astronomically. And within the scandal they raised, I think it was $20 billion from their, their funding round as this was happening with the collateral of women and children being undressed.

[Tim Miller]

We'll keep monitoring those stories. Like you said, it's did. So is it now, is there like a class now or are these all happening individually?

[Ashley St. Clair]

I believe there's a class action in California happening right now. Mine is I'm the only plaintiff because this was for us the most effective way to go about it because it was, you know, me personally who's being defamed. And I've been at the end of rather intense targeted harassment on X for a variety of reasons, including the owner.

[Tim Miller]

That's fucking brutal and I appreciate that. It's just like on all this stuff you don't have to be doing this. You could have disappeared and taken the alimony. So I appreciate that you're out there doing this. I want to talk a little bit more about your kind of evolution. I Went through this, having been a Republican, wrote about this a lot. People came to me and asked me to write a burn book. I'm sure you've gotten that request as well. I ended up writing like a half a burn book. I decided, you know, I was like, I was only going to do the burn book part if I talked about myself first and, like, my trajectory and my evolution and, like, what I thought I missed and why I got wrapped up in it. Like, what could be learned from that? So I'm wondering, like, how you kind of feel now, like, looking back on that.

[Ashley St. Clair]

I think it was very helpful for me to get off the Internet for a while. There's a lot of echo chambers that everyone kind of ends up in there. And your access to information and frankly, lived reality is really important for having views outside of these things. While I was within maga, I certainly had doubts. There were moments of free thinking that I had. But you're so wrapped up in it and your whole identity, is this your whole source of income, your career, your. You know, especially when you have kids, you're like, what am I going to do if I blow up my life and attack these people who are not exactly stable? But again, I got involved very young. It was this sense of belonging. And then I dropped out of college and I was in it. But I think, especially recently, there's no way that you can watch what's happening and not say something because it's so egregious. I think there's a lot of people, there's some people within my own family who voted for Trump and said, what is happening? You know, we did not vote for this. We did not anticipate this. And some people might call those who say those things, you know, stupid or, you know, we tried to warn you. But there is also a mass manipulation campaign going on. And I don't think that should be downplayed. I think people are being really manipulated and deceived on social media as well. And as we know, there's more and more of these tech bros buying up our media platforms because it's so valuable to hold your attention and hold the keys to perception.

[Tim Miller]

What have the administration so far? Like, when you say what's happening is so egregious, what are some examples of things that you find to be egregious?

[Ashley St. Clair]

I think, especially with ice, I think what's happening with the economy, with foreign policy that, you know, we're promised no new wars and they are gleefully blowing up, capturing foreign leaders, using our tax dollars and having These tech bros at the White House, the average everyday person has been left behind. You know, we're having people who cared about immigration and we have Trump gold cards and normal people are being rounded up and sent to El Salvador. It's disgusting. We have American citizens being shot on the streets by ice. And I'm not quite sure how even people that I knew can watch this and not think that this is going to come for them as well as it relates to free speech. You have Brendan Carr threatening to revoke broadcaster licensing over what people say. That's not what any of these people that I knew supposedly signed up for. We're supposed to care about free speech, we're supposed to care about the sovereign rights of citizens. And that, to me, has been very difficult to watch because I feel like I played a role in having that come to fruition. And I'm not quite sure the best way to help except speaking out now and saying this is wrong and it shouldn't happen.

[Tim Miller]

I think some people would say, particularly the immigration thing, I think it's interesting you started with that, with ice, that like, I don't know, the Trump first term had Stephen Miller. There was child separation, like, isn't that kind of what people signed up for, at least on the ICE part of it?

[Ashley St. Clair]

I did not. You know, there's also, behind the scenes, there's these assurances like that would never happen. You know, of course we're just going to get the criminals out. And you heard Trump repeat this over and over again. We're just going after the criminals, which, you know, obviously is a very small percentage of the population of immigrants that are here. But also just the cruelty of it is really difficult to watch. When I was down at the border, you see that there's obviously a national security issue with. You don't know who's coming through the border. I saw burned IDs, I saw buried IDs, I saw people who were very obviously fleeing some sort of criminality in other countries. But that again, was such a small percentage. And it, it doesn't seem like they're getting any of those people out of here. And I've always been very against the feds and law enforcement and authority in a way. But I, I can't understand why the Republicans think it's okay to say, well, you know, if you don't follow the law, you're going to get shot. But I, I do suppose we were warned about that in BLM while we were making fun of all those people.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. When the looting starts, the shooting starts we have today, I think, the first person to quit the administration in protest over one of these issues of the Iran war, Joe Kent. He posts this. After much reflection, I've decided to resign from a position as director of the National Counterterrorism center, effective today. I cannot in good conscience support the ongoing war in Iran. Iran posed no imminent threat to our nation, and it's clear that we started this war due to pressure from Israel and its powerful American lobby. I don't know. I look at that and I'm kind of of two minds about it. Like, on the one hand it's like, well, all those things you just listed, like, it is true that Trump has betrayed his base on a lot of things and I think on foreign policy most clearly. On the other hand, you look at Joe Kent and he's somebody who's done a lot of groiper stuff and you see the Israel stuff in the statement and it's like, well, that's why Marco's statement kind of complicates all this. It's like Marco kind of said that this was what happened. But on the other hand, it's like, is Joe Kent quitting because he's, because you know, of his conspiracy theory view about Jews? And it's like, I don't know how to assess that. So it's, it's good that I guess some people are seeing that Trump has betrayed them. Whether their motivations for that might be suspect, though, I don't know. What did you make of Joe Kent?

[Ashley St. Clair]

Whatever his motivations are, I think there's a lot of people, I think it's more of a bipartisan issue on both the left and the right, this support for Israel at all costs and that we're going to get involved in any war, we're going to do whatever is in the best interest of Israel. While there's people in America who can't, don't have health care, they don't have affordable housing. I think they're, whether it was Israel or any other nation that we had a comparable relationship with to where, you know, the American people are being impacted by what this foreign nation wants, people are feeling that and they're not happy about it on both the left and the right. And there's, there's going to be some intersect. And just because there are fringe characters who correctly identify the issue, I don't know that it, it should be discarded, especially going into the midterms.

[Tim Miller]

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[Ashley St. Clair]

Yeah,

[Tim Miller]

I want to talk a little bit about how hard this is to do what you're doing and maybe to a lesser extent, what Joe Kent's doing. I was listening this weekend to Tim Dillon. He's a comedian. He's like sort of a nationalist comedian that I think he had dinner with. J.D. vance got kind of sucked into that kind of world, like a lot of manosphere guys did. He's very sympathetic to kind of the American a first worldview. And he was talking about the rally that Trump had in Kentucky and how sad it was. And I want to play a little bit from that I don't know what any of these people are getting out of it anymore. They elected this guy, and then this guy is basically letting Jared Kushner and Bibi Netanyahu just carve out the Middle east, do whatever the hell they want, just make deals.

[Cameron Caskey]

And. And it's.

[Tim Miller]

It's tough because I know it's really, really hard to admit you got.

[Cameron Caskey]

You got God.

[Tim Miller]

It's really difficult to admit that almost

[Cameron Caskey]

no one can admit. It's very hard to admit you've been taken advantage of by someone that you

[Tim Miller]

respected, by someone that you liked and respected. This is actually a very difficult thing to do.

[Cameron Caskey]

It's easy to say you got scammed by some stranger, but someone that you trusted, respected, liked.

[Tim Miller]

And a lot of these people here,

[Cameron Caskey]

you know, in the back of their head, they can't admit it to themselves yet, but they feel like they've been taken advantage of.

[Tim Miller]

This is not about them anymore.

[Cameron Caskey]

It's dawned on them.

[Tim Miller]

They go, this is not really about us. That had to be kind of hard. I was listening to that, thinking about talking to you on Tuesday. Like, how. How hard was that for you?

[Ashley St. Clair]

It's difficult. But I. I also am hopeful that there's more humility within the right and the left for anyone who was wrong about certain issues, because it's a. It's okay to be wrong. We have this weird dichotomy in the Internet where it's. You have kind of this permanent fixture of identity, and you're never allowed to change your opinion because you're always fixed to past versions of yourself. But it's actually a good thing to grow and say, I was. I was really wrong and I'm sorry, and let's all try to have a clearer picture of what's happening right now. So I. I think Tim's spot on. They got God and they were deceived, and none of this is anything that he campaigned on, Whether it's from the Epstein files to Israel to, you know, the big, beautiful ballroom. This is all atrocious. And it's the American people who are suffering.

[Tim Miller]

I assume you hear from people like, do you hear from people that you knew from Tposa or Babylon B days or MAGA days? Like, what. What. What do they think about all this?

[Ashley St. Clair]

I do. And there's people that have espoused to me that they. They feel stuck. They know what's wrong, and they feel stuck. And I will tell you that the right has a. A big issue with what's festering underneath in terms of the sentiment against Women. There are a. A lot of women from the right who still keep in communication with me and they see what's happening. And especially as it, it relates to the rhetoric against women on the right. They're not just turning a blind eye to this and it's going to impact them, whether in the midterms or, you know, 2028. They're waking up to the fact that they've also been had, that they've been used as pawns within this fringe movement.

[Tim Miller]

How would you recommend people from the left or from the just broad anti Trump movement, like, talk to women like, that? I'd communicate with them and try to find common ground with them because I do think that I assume the natural impulse of many listeners of myself towards that. It's like, oh, oh, oh, you, you're just waking up to the fact that the MAGA movement hates women, are you? It's like you got, you know, you're part of a cult for a man that was like, has sexually assaulted multiple women and had three wives and called in the New York Post to talk about how great his sex with his mistress was. And it's like I talked about grabbing women by the pussy. It's like, like you're just seeing this now. And so that's the instinct. But we want to put that instinct aside over here in the box for a second and think about, like, where are areas of common ground, like, what are ways to communicate that are useful?

[Ashley St. Clair]

It is a cult. And what you have to understand is in any abusive relationship, right, your access to other people, you're very isolated. Your access to information is cut off. Your access to people who might have, you know, rational thoughts about what you're involved in, you're cut off from that as well. So what you have to understand is these people, you know, they're told it's fake news, all of this is fake news. The only thing you can trust is Twitter and Truth Social. And for better or worse, they actually believe that to an extent. They believe that these esteemed outlets are lying to them, that nothing they put out can be true. So I think just, just little by little, showing them that they're still. There's still space for them. It's not easy to do what I did and apologize for all of the things that I said and really, you know, I meant on Matt Bernstein's podcast. And all of these words that I had said, which were incredibly hurtful, are put up on the screen and read back to you. And that's really hard to do, but I think as long as there's space for these people to come back and say, hey, we understand that this is a whole new world in social media and the Internet and these cults can grab you in on your phone and nobody can ever see you again. I think that's the best way to. To do it is to be compassionate to some of these people, even if they're not being very compassionate themselves right now.

[Tim Miller]

Maybe this is your job. I listen to that podcast that you're on with Matt, who's a nice guy I love, really left guy, and a lot of the conversation was about, like, how you could make amends with the trans community and the LGBT community and all this. I don't know how much value is there to having you put on your hair shirt and go and put up the. Put up the rainbow flag. It's fine. You can do all that as a gay. I can be like, it's fine. I don't know. I kind of feel like your penance should be talking to the trap girls.

[Ashley St. Clair]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

And communicating to them, because they're not going to listen to Matt Bernstein. Like, they're not going to listen to Matt Bernstein. They're probably not going to listen to me. And maybe they would listen to you.

[Ashley St. Clair]

I think it's also very important to hold that space where you do hold accountability. Because what I've realized leaving is that to. To ignore the issues from these, you know, the. The communities that the woke fixated on a wa for a while, these issues come back and affect all of us. Okay. The way in which the trans community is scapegoated, that impacts women and everyone else as well. The way in which BLM was scapegoated and demonized. They were warning about a lot of the issues that we're now facing with ICE right now. And so I do think it's also important to say, hey, here's what I missed and here's why we should listen to those individuals. And if you don't, it's going to come for you next. I think it's really important to hold space for how very small percentages of the population are used by political parties, I guess.

[Tim Miller]

I think that space is being held for those communities, though. I think it's your job to go down to the fucking TPUSA events and. And go up to the girls and be like, are you sure you want to be here? Are you sure? Are you sure? Are you sure? Yeah. Are you sure that you want to do this? I think that's a better use of your skills. One man's opinion. Yeah, that's it.

[Ashley St. Clair]

Yeah, I think it's important, but it's also.

[Tim Miller]

Are the women inside the White House? I don't know. I mean, the women inside this administration,

[Ashley St. Clair]

some of the women within the White House hold a degree of psychopathy that I'm not sure there's anything I could say that would. Would be helpful. Now, obviously at times I've lacked empathy when in being in politics and the things I've said, but the women within the White House really scare me, to be honest.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. So you sort of go through this transformation. You have this personal crisis that kind of precipitates it, that some of the views from your time in that world you have to maintain. Right. Or have to still have some resonance with you, or do you look back at it and think that, God, I was just caught up in this and it was all a lie, or are there some things. I don't know. I was like, peeking at your Twitter and it seemed like right before you left X and it felt like there was still. You still had some views. You had some USAID views that I disagreed with that you were sharing. I don't know. Do you have other. Are there MAGA elements that you think still resonate with you?

[Ashley St. Clair]

I would say no, because, you know, my first instinct is to say yes, because there's constitutional values that I hold. But that's not maga, that's just American.

[Tim Miller]

So what are some of those, though?

[Ashley St. Clair]

I don't know. Free speech? Especially. Especially with AI. I think we're really. There's a lot of people who are going to be forgotten as, like, our general consciousness is aggregated and stolen from us. But there's also. People will say, I made such a pivot because, you know, X, Y, Z, or I'm grifting. But they don't consider what it's like to see the underbelly of such power and how up close I saw it and saw such immense wealth and such immense power that it really kind of radicalizes you the other way because, you know, to. To be in the rooms with the wealthiest people in the world and they're talking about socialism being handouts, is as a normal person whose mom didn't want to go to the hospital when she was having a heart attack because she wasn't insured, that's kind of flips a switch in you where you're like, oh, you guys all actually really suck. You might be ontologically evil. And so I think that's true. That's. Yeah, I've had A hard flip the other way, especially as it relates to my views on capitalism. But I saw something very ugly.

[Tim Miller]

When you see that they're evil, it's hard to say, well, I do have to hand it to him on the Jones act, and I deal with this as well. But how about maybe looking at it from this perspective rather than complimenting them? If you're talking to Democrats, just practically speaking, somebody who lived in that world and who had friends there, is there something that Democrats are doing that is blocking them from being able to reach those people? Are there things that you wish that they would do?

[Ashley St. Clair]

Yes, they are incredibly lukewarm. Like the Democratic Party is very lukewarm. I don't think they're speaking to any real issues that people are facing. People need health care. People need housing. They need a lot more than what the Democrat Party is saying that they support now. And Gavin Newsom going out and saying, we went too far with the trans stuff. Why even address it at all? This is a non issue. I do believe, like, old Woke is dead now. But it's these very lukewarm candidates who aren't offering accountability for the corporations and big tech and all of these people and entities that have pillaged America. There's nobody talking about AI governance whatsoever. And I think that's really harmful. I think if the Democrats want some sort of future, they do need to take a hard look and start offering more social programs in conjunction with really holding these corporations accountable.

[Tim Miller]

I want you to let the dog out a little bit more. I'm giving you, I don't know, were you Catholic? What did you grow up? What was your evangelical Jewish? Okay, well, so, I don't know, maybe producer Katie can tell me what Jewish people do in this situation. The Catholics, I give you penance. You do 10 Hail Marys and 10 Our Fathers, and then you get to move forward. I want to give that to you in the Catholic spirit because you did this tweet right before you went dark. Ruben Gallego wrote, trump wants to invade Panama, Greenland and now Gaza. Trump is a warmonger. Credit to Ruben. He was right about that. You replied your mom named you after a sandwich. That's funny. He was right. You were wrong. But I want you to use that skill set for good. That's what I want you to do.

[Ashley St. Clair]

I was right that his mom named him after a sandwich.

[Tim Miller]

And it's funny.

[Ashley St. Clair]

Look, there's no foreign policy tape there whatsoever.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, one last try. Do you want to comment on Elon's micro phallus or like, just Draw a picture of it or something.

[Ashley St. Clair]

I am not at liberty to discuss that. Connor eats pants. Tried getting me on that as well. But the greatest journalists of our time, by the way, Connor's.

[Tim Miller]

Connor e. Pants. I can't compete with him. Is there anything like. Just let you know, like, something in his. Like in his bedtime drawer. He's got a little binky, you know, Is there a little something. Does he sleep with a. Sleep with a teddy bear or something? There's nothing. Not one little.

[Ashley St. Clair]

I will. I will respect his privacy in that regard.

[Tim Miller]

Lastly, give me a little kid talk. You got two kids now. Obviously you want to respect their privacy, but just give us something about being a mom. That's been a blessing.

[Ashley St. Clair]

Well, my older son is today St. Patrick's Day, so he's dressed as a leprechaun in the full get up. He's very excited. They are the best parts of my life, and it's all I focus on, you know, that's why I'm. I go more dark now because they are so incredible. And I hope everyone at some point gets to experience that joy of parenthood. But it really makes you reflect on what your beliefs are as you have to explain the world to these little, little beings who are going to grow into their own. And. And I don't know. I hope that my motherhood will live forever through them and through their kids. And I hope that it's impactful and meaningful and that I can make them proud. But they are. I love them both so much.

[Tim Miller]

I hope you can, too. You're doing the right thing. You're doing really well. I appreciate it. Thanks. My daughter came downstairs today in the little green hat that has the thing where you press the button and the ears go up as well as a shamrock necklace. And she looked at my husband and said, is this too much? That's the right amount, baby. That's the right amount.

[Ashley St. Clair]

My son has said that he has crabs in his pocket that he will throw at people if they're not wearing green. So the crabs are doing the pinching. He's outsourced the pinching to his minion crabs.

[Tim Miller]

All right, well, send me some kid pictures on the gram. I appreciate you so much, Ashley. Thanks for coming on the show. And take off the hair shirt and just go forth and do the right thing. All right, girl.

[Ashley St. Clair]

Of course. Thanks, Tim.

[Tim Miller]

I appreciate you so much. Up next, my buddy Cam Cass.

[Ashley St. Clair]

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[Tim Miller]

We are back. He's my mini me. We used to do a podcast together. He was also a candidate for New York's 12th congressional district and co founder of March for Our Lives. He left the campaign to focus on a piece of human rights legislation that he's working on with Ro Khanna. Because he's a person who cares. He's a person that does things and cares. It's Kam Kaski. What's up, brother?

[Cameron Caskey]

The fuck is up, gang? We're back.

[Tim Miller]

How you been? How you been?

[Cameron Caskey]

I'm good, you know, I'm good. How are you doing?

[Tim Miller]

Are you vaping? You vaping?

[Cameron Caskey]

No. I did hookah recently.

[Tim Miller]

Hookah.

[Cameron Caskey]

It had been years since I had done nicotine. But then I was in an ancient city called Sebastia. It's like a 3,000 year old city. And the mayor offered me a hit of his hookah and I was like, what am I gonna do, say no? But I hadn't eaten in like two days, so. And it had been puked. I didn't puke, but I was like. It was like, I just don't crack. Like, my entire body was buzzing. I could. I couldn't sit still. It was so. It was so crack. I hadn't slept. I was overseas. I'd never been overseas before, so I didn't really know what jet lag actually was. Jet lag to me was like going to la, and it's like, oh, you woke up an hour earlier this morning, so it's just a fucking mess.

[Tim Miller]

But anyway, wait a minute. Your trip to Israel and the west bank was your first time ever leaving America?

[Cameron Caskey]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

You've never been to Cancun?

[Cameron Caskey]

No, I haven't been to Tulum. I haven't been anywhere.

[Tim Miller]

Montreal?

[Cameron Caskey]

No, I don't really.

[Tim Miller]

That is fascinating. That kind of makes you more like the median American than I realized.

[Cameron Caskey]

I am the media in America. Are you kidding me? Like, I don't have any culture. My family history is like, oh, we moved to Florida in 1997. Like, that's. That's what I got.

[Tim Miller]

I was going to talk to you about Ashley Sinclair. We'll save that for the end. We'll save that for dessert. We'll talk about the serious stuff first. The trip where you hookahed in the ancient city, your first trip abroad was. I guess this legislation came out of that. So talk to us about your trip and what you saw.

[Cameron Caskey]

Sure. So you know, I was running for Congress in New York 12, which everybody at the Bulwark is doing these days, and Palestine was a huge issue of mine. So a lot of people in my district were saying, well, if you care so much about the people over in Palestine, why don't you go over there and see how they feel about you, Jewish boy. So I went over there and it turns out they like me way more than they like me in my congressional district. It isn't even close. Like, I would have a much better chance.

[Tim Miller]

Did you do a poll?

[Cameron Caskey]

If there was, I would have a much better chance winning over there than I would in New York 12.

[Tim Miller]

I disagree. I think. I think your chance of New York 12 was better than you thought. But we'll save that for another day.

[Cameron Caskey]

I mean, we'll see. Listen, there was a poll that got leaked to Jewish Insider in an article where they were trying to rat fuck me. And it was like, yeah, Caskey's unpromising polling showed him at 8% with nobody over 20. And I was like, you know that that's like a dramatic over performance, right? Like, I would not have guessed that at all. I would have put myself maybe 8%, 8% with nobody over 20 better than Jeb. Well, you know, not. It's not a competition, it's a different situation. But no. So point is, I go overseas again. I'd never been there before. I have to make up a fake reason that I'm going to get through Israeli customs. Because if you tell the Israeli airport that you're going to the occupied west bank, they'll interrogate you. They might just turn you away. In 2022, a law got passed where Israel can just not let you in if they don't want to. There doesn't need to be any sort of alignment between you and any violent rhetoric or language or strong borders. It's just like they could just not like your vibe and be like, okay, get the fuck out. Because it's the only democracy in the Middle East. So put together this elaborate plan to get through customs. Got through customs, went right to the West Bank. I went to Beit Suhur, which is the city where the shepherds found out about the birth of Jesus. And then they went over To Bethlehem, which I also went to. I went to the Church of Nativity and I did that thing where you get on your knees, like right where Jesus was born, and you do a little prayer. And I was like, I mean, I've read Revelations, so I've got that going for me in the Christian world.

[Tim Miller]

Well, that's crazy. What was the vibe like at the Church of the Nativity?

[Cameron Caskey]

It was, it was Christmas week. I was in Bethlehem on Christmas Eve, so it was kind of crazy. I was like, whoa, I'm leading a peace march in Bethlehem on, on Christmas Eve. Like, if I were Christian, this would probably be the coolest thing in the world. But again, almost everything I know about the Bible is the Book of Revelations. And the Book of Revelations is wild. It's like, it makes Genesis look like a children's book. It's like a bun. The Bible is these allegories and these stories about temptation and, and the human nature. And then Revelations is like, all right, guys, there's going to be a giant snake made out of fire that's going to eat the entire world. I digress. I go around the west bank and it's a very interesting situation because I'm in all these different sorts of life. I'm in these urban population centers and then these Bedouin villages and these more suburban areas and everything. And the life that they experience there, there's all these different sorts of. Of struggle that they go through. Because in some places you see these military checkpoints where people cannot walk home because they just get turned away by the Israeli army. And what should be a 7 minute walk back to their house ends up taking them 90 plus minutes. And then there's other places where settler militias will just raid villages and shoot people point blank in broad daylight. This happened to my friend's husband who was murdered last year by a guy named Yanon Levy, who not only faced no criminal consequences, he also regularly comes back to the village to harass people. To this day, and it's just all these different things. Like in Gaza, you have this very clear picture of this war and this bombing and this constant barrage of drone strikes and bullets in the West Bank. It's very much death by a thousand cuts. And it's a slower, more meticulous process that involves going after the water sources, energy grids, all these different things. Economic, collective punishment. It's a very complex situation. And I'm a dipshit layman. I'd never left the country before, so it was just a weird experience for me.

[Tim Miller]

How long were you There.

[Cameron Caskey]

I was there for a week. I would have stayed longer if I weren't running a congressional campaign.

[Tim Miller]

What about the plane with the kids? Talk to me about the shooting hoops.

[Cameron Caskey]

Oh, my God. Well, the kids were so cute. There was one little girl who I scared. She was probably about 4 years old. And I was going up to her brothers in Hebron to play football with them. That's what they call it, football. It's this word for soccer that people use. And she saw me and she kind of jumped for a second. And I realized this girl was probably, like, three or four years old. The tourism industry in the west bank, which is like what keeps the west bank alive, has just disappeared since October 7th. I. I might have been the first white person she has ever seen that was not a settler trying to harass her family.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Cameron Caskey]

And then I just gave her candy, and she was chill. The kids, they go crazy for candy. And I went to this village called Umahir where I brought bags of candy. My friend Jasper, who's a journalist, told me to do it, and the kids would just swarm me. But then when I ran out of candy, I did not know the Arabic to tell them that I didn't have candy. So they thought that I was just, like, playing a game with them. And they kept on being like, candy can. I was like, guys, guys, I actually don't have any more. I'm sorry. I was going over to different villagers who spoke English. I was like, can you guys tell them in Arabic that I don't have candy anymore?

[Tim Miller]

Universal experience. The kid will love you until the second that you don't give them exactly what they're hoping for. And then all of a sudden, you're worthless. Totally useless.

[Cameron Caskey]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

So you come back, you decide to get out of the race. We'll get to that in a sec. You go down to D.C. you talk to Roe Khanna and others about doing some legislation. What are you guys asking for?

[Cameron Caskey]

I mean, everything that happens in the west bank, we fund. And a lot of people in the liberal Zionist world who are ultimately supportive of Israel agree that the west bank operation is something that must be stopped at all costs. Like even people who will totally defend Israel and ultimately consider themselves allies of Israel, they're against the west bank stuff. But there's this big misunderstanding that the west bank settlements are something that happen in spite of Israeli policy and not as the direct result of Israeli policy. But there is a guy named Bezalel Smotrich, the finance Minister of Israel. Netanyahu is placed in charge of the occupied West Bank. Smutrich was a wanted terrorist in Israel. He was somebody that even the Israeli government said, we need to put this guy behind bars. Only maybe, let's say 20 years ago now he's in charge of the west bank. And since October 7, kind of under the COVID of Gaza, the West bank settler violence, settlement expansions, it is all just. It's been on fast forward. I mean, right when I got back, like the day my flight landed. And we'll talk about the girl who doxxed me in the airport. I don't know if you saw that.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, yeah.

[Cameron Caskey]

But the day that I landed, 19 new settlements just got approved and they're choking these people out. So I said to Roe, we can't just, you know, talk about how the settler violence is bad. We can't just demand investigations into the killings of American citizens who are killed in the West Bank. I mean, just stop and think about that for a second. American citizens are killed by Israelis in the West Bank.

[Tim Miller]

There's somebody from Philadelphia a couple weeks ago.

[Cameron Caskey]

Yeah. And of course, John Fetterman didn't have a word to say about it. But we can't just look at the settler violence as if the settlements themselves are not the reason this is happening and as if the State of Israel itself is not allowing these settlements to happen. I mean, again, people will act like the settlements are like acne and they just kind of pop up out of nowhere. But it's the Israeli military that accompanies the settlers to go kill these people. And it's not just the Israeli military, it's also the Palestinian Authority. Palestinian Authority that governs the west bank will just stand there while an Israeli military officer or an Israeli settler kills a Palestinian. And the PA just sits there and does nothing if not actively participates. So it's this very complex situation. And what I said to Ro was we need a resolution that is going to shine a light on all the different tactics that Israel is using in the west bank. Because every area you go to, they're doing different things. They're placing demolition orders on community centers. They are in Sebastia, for example, the place I hit the hookah. They are using archaeology as an excuse to steal land from Palestinians. So Israeli officials will basically submit a picture of broken clay pots and say, oh, this is actually an archaeological site. We need to make sure Palestinians can't build anything here. We need to confiscate it for ourselves, actually. So they'll obviously burn down all the Palestinians olive groves everywhere you go. You could point to all these different things. And if you look at the resolution that Roe introduced, that we worked very hard on, you can see we cover a lot of different things from a lot of different angles. Because the west bank operation is very

[Tim Miller]

complex for dummies like me. Just the nuts of it. The nuts of the resolution is what, like they ask, is what?

[Cameron Caskey]

Demanding an end to a lifting of the demolition orders on buildings in. And then we list all the different villages where that's happening and into the archaeological land. Confiscation. In places like Sebastiao, there's a lot of roads that are getting built that are cutting Palestinian villages off from one another because they will, like, be building infrastructure for Israeli settlements and in doing so, just cut off Palestinians ability to reach their water supply, to reach their electricity, and just a lot of different things like that. We're working on something in the near future to look at the fact that we are offering US Embassy services in the occupied west bank, which, by the way, like, according to the Oslo Accords, according to the agreed upon international law, the Israeli settlements in the west bank are a huge human rights violation. I. I see this to people pretty frequently. Even if you just completely took Gaza out of the equation, even if you acted as though there was absolutely nothing going on there, the west bank occupation is still one of the biggest human rights violations happening in the world right now. But there's a difference between the west bank and Sudan and the gang wars in Haiti and Ukraine. There's a very important distinction to make here, which is that the American taxpayer is not subsidizing the RSF in Sudan. I mean, I think we need to be placing harder sanctions on the United Arab Emirates, who are.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, we're doing deals with the UAE that's subsidizing them. So. So it's, you know, a little bit of a bank shop, but, yeah, sure.

[Cameron Caskey]

But like every single bullet that is being fired by Israeli forces, whether that's children in Lebanon, whether that's all. We're all chipping into that, you know. And I can't say the same thing about Barbecue's gang in Port Au Prince.

[Tim Miller]

I want to move on and talk about the primary stuff. Since you were in a primary race. We got a primary tonight.

[Cameron Caskey]

I was in a primary race. Do we do.

[Tim Miller]

There's a bunch of races in Illinois. Senate race has been interesting. I think the lieutenant governor there. Stratford.

[Cameron Caskey]

Is the Senate race close?

[Tim Miller]

It is, yeah. A lot of these races. The degree to which AIPAC has played such a big role in all these races is like, pretty insane actually, because in the Senate race in Illinois, it's like everybody's accusing everybody else of being the AIPAC candidates. And like that's the thing that I'm seeing the most. It's like fucking wild. But Juliana Stratton's Lieutenant Governor, she was losing in the polls. Raja, I don't want to butcher his name, Congressman. Raja was winning the polls, but Stratton seems to be, you know, kind of have the momentum. We'll see how it shakes out tonight. But then there are a bunch of congressional races, including the one that's gotten the most attention is when one of our former FY POD guests, Kat Abu Ghazale, was the kind of lefty online candidate against Daniel Biss, who's more of like a, I guess, liberal left traditional candidate. And then there is an actual APAC candidate in that race. Then I think there's another leftist candidate. It's kind of a four way race. Cat and Bis seem to be the two most likely to win. I mean, you've been monitoring that. You got, you have any hot takes on it. I've seen some tweets from you on that race.

[Cameron Caskey]

It'll be very interesting to see. I mean, you're right to say it's going to be Bis or Cat. And either way, I mean the way that I put it is like if Kat comes in third place, that is still a dramatic over performance considering like

[Tim Miller]

her youth narcolepsy, her radical left positions.

[Cameron Caskey]

Well, she, again, she's not even the radical leftist in the, in the race. There's a, there's a girl who's running against her from the left. So this is, this is how weird the APAC world has gotten. This is how strange the puzzle of like APAC science has gotten. There's a candidate named Bushra who is to the left of Kat and has a lot of community ties that are sort of, you know, people around her who are telling her, no, you can actually win. No, you can actually win. I've noticed from my experience as a candidate that that's something that happens a lot with candidates, like a lot of the candidates who stay in races. And I'm sure you've seen this a million times a lot of the candidates where you're like, oh, the only reason they're staying in is because they're trying to make a point or because, you know, they, yeah, there's some sort of end game here. It's so hard to believe that some people can actually be convinced that somehow, even though they're polling at 0.05%, they can make it happen. No, a lot of these people are just surrounded by enough people being like, no, no, no, no, you got it. No, you got it.

[Tim Miller]

You had to experience this. Was it weird being a candidate? People treat you different. Like, when you were a candidate for a couple months, did you notice people being, like, a little nicer to you or a little bit more excited to see you, buttering you up a little more?

[Cameron Caskey]

Yeah, I guess. I don't know. I just. I very deliberately surround myself with a specific type of person, generally speaking, because, you know, the way my brain works, I just constantly need to be around people who are telling me that I'm full of shit. But no, I definitely had some people around me from my team. Maybe not on the higher levels of my team, but, you know, in sort of like the middle management side of my team who just thought I could do no wrong and everything. And I was like, okay, calm down. Down. Like, hey, hey. I'm not even professing to be as smart as you're treating me right now. Like I'm running as a layman. I'm just running as a dip.

[Tim Miller]

You do get a lot of people telling you they're for you, you know, which makes you feel like you could win. This is like the. The anecdote. People I coach you be like, yeah, I'm for you. It's like, are you even in my district?

[Cameron Caskey]

Yeah, that's one of the big things. Yeah, it's like, oh, my God. I would have been so much more effective as a national candidate than as a. Than as a New York 12 candidate. I could have gone to Wisconsin and talked about my fucking baseball team the whole time and immediately won the state.

[Tim Miller]

Back to Bushra.

[Cameron Caskey]

Yeah, with the CAT race. So you've got Bushra, and she's running to the left of cat. And apac, through one of their many shell companies, has been releasing pro Bushra ads to explain why Bushra is actually the right choice.

[Tim Miller]

They did this in New Jersey, and in New Jersey, they ended up with a leftist congressperson, beat Tom Malinowski, who was more of a bulwarky Democrat because Malinowski had criticized Israel. And so now they ended up with a squad member. This happened.

[Cameron Caskey]

The other thing is Daniel Biss, who I don't think is bad, by the way. I prefer Cap, but I don't think Bis is some rotten piece of shit. But Daniel Biss, from what I understand, tried to get the APAC endorsement, didn't get the APAC endorsement, and is now like, I'm not bought off by aipac. And it's like, yeah, they didn't want you, bro. Like, sorry. So APAC chess has just gotten so complex now that they're spending money on candidates that were that candidate someone who actually has a shot, they would be doing everything they possibly can to stop. And it's just very strange. But then you saw there was a report and msnbc, I think they're the ones who broke this. There were influencers getting paid $1,500 per post to Shit Talk Cap.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Cameron Caskey]

And it's not just aipac. There's a fuckload of crypto and AI money in Illinois as well. Like, the amount.

[Tim Miller]

This is happening in your race, too. There's like a pro AI cannon.

[Cameron Caskey]

They're trying to destroy Alex Boris, the two guys, like, who were the traditional New York candidates here. Because, you know, George Conway is a special case. Jack Schlossberg is a special case. Alex Boris and Michael Lasher are like the expected guys here.

[Tim Miller]

And for the machine candidates. Yeah.

[Cameron Caskey]

I mean, Alex Boris, literally, because AI is his primary focus. But Alex and Micah, from a policy perspective, are almost indistinguishable from one another. But AI is spending millions already to stop Alex for, like, some fairly regular AI takes. Like, my AI take is basically destroy every AI data center.

[Tim Miller]

Unplug the server.

[Cameron Caskey]

Yeah, yeah, they destroy it all. Build affordable housing over them. Alex Borres is like, make sure that, you know, your children aren't making child porn on AI. Just like, very basic things like that. And apparently he's just, like, this huge fucking threat to them. But I said privately to Alex, like, dude, you need to keep reminding people that it's the worst people in the world who are trying to stop you. That's your best weapon here. Judge me by my enemies. Like that. You know, those AI execs who tweet things like, I want to destroy the world, and, like, you know, immigrants are destroying the country, and I want to use AI to purify our nation. Yeah, all those guys are spending against Boris. And it's interesting because you've got apac, which is this big new boogeyman, and then you've got AI packs, and it can get a little confusing.

[Tim Miller]

I don't know if those are the two interest groups we want to making choices in Democratic primaries, but that's where we're at right now. That's maybe a conversation for a longer day. I have one other primary. I want to get your head. Have you endorsed anybody, actually, in your old race yet. Have you endorsed anybody yet?

[Cameron Caskey]

No, I don't. Maybe I will, maybe I won't. I'm not sure.

[Tim Miller]

During that, you made my life a lot easier, because I'm for George. I'd only donated to you, I will say, but now I get to be for George. I haven't actually wrote the checkbook yet. Hopefully he's not listening to the podcast. I'm going to get a text after this asking for my contribution.

[Cameron Caskey]

You had publicly endorsed me on our last FYPOD episode, and you had said, I endorsed Cam. You couldn't take it back.

[Tim Miller]

Correct.

[Cameron Caskey]

And I was going to make an endorsement section of our website, and it was just going to be you and Ms. Rachel. It was going to be endorsed by Tim Miller and Ms. Rachel.

[Tim Miller]

I'm fucking pissed at you. You didn't do that. There's an ad out today from Janet Mills attacking Graham Platner on this. The ad is women looking at an iPad reading his Reddit posts where he says that women who get assaulted should act like adults, then they should not get so fucked up. I gotta just say, this is the thing you're not supposed to say as a podcaster, as a commentator on all this. I have no idea whether that will work. Like, I truly don't. Like, I think that in some, like, in a different world, I think those are some pretty bad Reddit posts. And Democratic primary voters who are very me too oriented and friendly would reject a male, white, male, straight that had posted stuff like that. In this day and age, after the Biden thing, after just the disappointment with the establishment, I don't know. I think. I'm not sure it's going to work. You're just more in touch with the, you know, progressive ID than me. So I was. I was interested in what you thought about that.

[Cameron Caskey]

I think the progressive id I said this about me recently because I had made some comments in the past that were by really any measure just outright Islamophobic. And I was talking to people about it because it was being called into question the sincerity of the dedication that I have to, to human rights in the Middle East, North Africa region. And I said, you know, it's kind of one of the most classic themes in a story of all time is can a man change? Like, if you go through all of literature, fables, tales dating back to ancient times, one of the most common themes you'll see is, can a man change? And you'll notice that all of the happy stories end with the answer yes. And all of the tragedies End with no. And I think that a lot of people want to believe in the redemptive power of the human spirit. And a lot of people also recognize that it's not like this was someone who was a business leader posting this shit from his C suite, you know, executive first class airplane seat. This was somebody who had just come back from war. So somebody who just came back from, by the way, the same type of war that everybody is outraged about right now. And people see these comments as something that were being made by somebody who was dejected. And it felt like the American experiment, politically and socially had left him behind. And now what is he doing with his life? Is he continuing to stew about in the dark or is he trying to do something to help people? So I think that this would have been a very different story if Graham Platner was running against Jon Ossoff or Raphael Warnock, but he's running against an extremely weak candidate. I think Ossoff and Warnock or Elizabeth Warren, even somebody with some juice, it would be a different story. But Janet Mills doesn't have any juice.

[Tim Miller]

It's really powerful. What you said there about the fables and the redemptive spirit. It's tied to what we talked about in the first segment. Talked about this with Ashley and, and how she's obviously grappling with this and what she needs to do to redeem herself, which is kind of a crazy thing to grapple with as a 26 year old single mother of two. But that's what she has to kind of think about what is valuable for her to do.

[Cameron Caskey]

She's 26.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, we talked about Joe Kent. Yeah, with two kids, we could really speedrun your trip to parenthood.

[Cameron Caskey]

I was gonna say put us in a group text.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, we'll put you in a group text after this. Also not blunt. The other thing we were talking about was Joe Kent on that show. Joe Kent resigned today. And it's like Joe Kent did a bunch of anti Semitic shit in the past and he resigned over the Iran war. And it's like, well, did he resign over the Iran war because he's anti Semitic or did he resign over the Iran war because it's corrupt and wrong and it goes against like what he believed as a former soldier who thought that we weren't going to get into stupid wars anymore? And it's like. And the same thing with Platner. And it's like, I think people assess all of these people, whether it be like Ashley or Joe or Platner, and are like, I Carme, for that matter, and try to decide, like, am I being snowed by this person, or is this person demonstrating that they are redeemable and that they want to be redeemed and that they're earnest? And it might be different in different of those cases, but, like, my view on the Platner thing is, like, all you can do is judge them by what they're doing now. And maybe you end up getting snowed sometimes, but you can judge them by what they're saying and doing now. And I would rather someone try to redeem themselves and be imperfect than the opposite.

[Cameron Caskey]

If we were all defined by our lowest moments, we would not be in good positions. Right? Anybody listening to this can think of the worst decisions that you've ever made, the worst beliefs you've ever held, the worst things you've ever said, and if somebody tried to say, that's you, that's who you are, you would say, absolutely not. That was so.

[Tim Miller]

Or maybe kind of. Or maybe it's part of who I am and it's what I'm grappling with. Like, everybody has demons, you know? You know what I mean? Like, that's also part of it.

[Cameron Caskey]

No, I don't know what you're talking about. I don't have any demons.

[Tim Miller]

You have no demons. Well, I don't have demons.

[Cameron Caskey]

If you go into my brain, it's just angels floating around with harps.

[Tim Miller]

We all got demons, baby. Yeah. I don't know. I always go back to the old Hillary thing. Everybody obsessed over her, saying that the maggots were deplorable. And I was like, that wasn't the problem is that she said they're irredeemable. And I don't know. We'll see if any of these people earn. Earn their redemption. Cam, we were supposed to talk about looks maxing. We're like an hour over the length of how long this podcast is going to be. So we're going to do, like, we'll just. Very quick. We're going to brag on this. Everybody's talking about Clavicular now. Clavicular won't come on the Bulwark because he doesn't think it's moggable. Which is wrong. Which is wrong.

[Cameron Caskey]

It's not moggable.

[Tim Miller]

Cameron and I podcast one, Go to the FIY Pod archives. It wasn't even really the first episode. It was a trial to see if this project could work. Oops. And it was about fucking looks maxing.

[Cameron Caskey]

We're doing this shit. We're doing this shit over A year ago. Get ahead of the game, get mogged. Everybody get mugged.

[Tim Miller]

That's Cameron Caskey. I appreciate the work you're doing, brother. Let's stay in touch, all right?

[Cameron Caskey]

What do you mean let's stay in touch? We fucking. We talk. I'll see you at the wedding every day. All right.

[Tim Miller]

We do talk a lot.

[Cameron Caskey]

Yeah, let's stay in touch. Email.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, you're right. What the fuck was I saying? I don't know, man. It just was like. I was just like. Talk to me, babe, talk to me. I just want your attention. Sorry.

[Cameron Caskey]

I'll see you at the fucking wedding that we're going to together.

[Tim Miller]

See you at the wedding. I'm Cameron's plus one for a wedding soon. Everybody. Thank you, Ashley St. Carter. Thank you to Cameron. Up tomorrow we have another friend of Cameron's, I think, who's going to be on the pod. And this is a little teaser for that. So we'll see you back here then. We'll see you in Texas. Come to the Austin events. Way up in the balcony, there are a couple seats left. You'll be able to see me with your binoculars if you buy tickets right now. The bulk.com events events and we'll see all y' all soon. Bye, Cameron, won't you help to say these songs of freedom. Redemption song Redemption Song the Bork podcast is brought to you thanks to the work of lead producer Katie Cooper, associate producer Ansley Skipper, and with video editing by Katie Lutz and audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.