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- [00:00]
A
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B
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C
Another pina colada?
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B
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A
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B
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A
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- [01:12]
C
Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Delighted to welcome back to the show. Co host of Pivot, host of on with Kara Swisher, creator of the CNN original series Kara Swisher wants to live forever. The only person producing more content than me, it's Kara Swisher.
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B
What's up? We are funny that way, aren't we?
- [01:29]
C
We are.
- [01:30]
B
We are.
- [01:31]
C
We should do less, probably.
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B
We should. No, no. More. More. Yes. I don't feel like there's enough of us out there.
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C
I agree with that. Yeah. JVL is suggesting we do a spin off podcast about coaching our children sports teams. And I was like, do people want to hear my opinion about everything?
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B
Easily. That's a good one. I was a terrible coach, Jim. I was terrible.
- [01:49]
C
You were a terrible coach.
- [01:50]
B
You're probably good. It's probably the flip on the gay thing, right?
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C
So I thought, well, the outcome wasn't that great this year, so talk to me next year. Okay. I felt good. I felt like we were improving throughout the year, but the end outcome wasn't great. So we'll see how it goes.
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B
I felt like it was herding cats and I just didn't like the entire experience. It just wasn't.
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C
Yeah. I don't know. I'm surprised because I would have thought the opposite with the lesbian thing. The coach that was running circles around me in the youth basketball League. I thought she was a lesbian. My husband just thought she was a sporty straight. So I went to the.
- [02:20]
B
Oh, that happens. It's very confusing these days. I went to the Liberty game over the weekend and you can't tell. You can't tell anymore. It's just really hard to know.
- [02:29]
C
All right, we've got much to get into. Obviously, it's all the tech AI stuff. Elon Bezos. I wanted to just ask a big picture question to start though, because Scott said on your pod the other day, we are in 1999 and you agreed with that. And I thought that was provocative and I wanted more and so give us a state of play.
- [02:48]
B
We were talking specifically about the SpaceX documents, the SEC documents, which are so bad, mathematically speaking, that it calls to mind a lot of stuff that we had previously seen, you know, at the height of the dot com bubble where it just. Everybody was like, yeah, yeah, right, yeah, huh. And most of it was nonsense. Now that said out of it came Google, out of it came Amazon, you know what I mean? Amazon had been troubled at the time. So it doesn't mean that there's not going to be big, big winners here. It's that there are a lot of stuff that isn't going to exist and everything. I think 10% of the stock market, some number is predicated on a small number of companies. And so if one of the struts falls out, say just this week u the CFO said we're spending too much money on AI tokens and we don't know the efficacy of it. Like that's a statement. Like if that, if there's more of those statements where people are like doing all this AI spending and then not finding any good use for it. It just feels like that. The cheerleader. Of course we need MySpace, of course we need six search services. Of course we need whatever it happened to be at the time.
- [03:52]
C
Friendster.
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B
I'm trying to remember Mary Meeker was backing Toys, Toys.com or eToys. Remember there was a bunch of them. And it has that feel and it doesn't mean it has to happen that way. And I. Doesn't mean I don't think there's not going to be big companies. It's. Everything is very fragile and when you read that SpaceX thing, you're sort of like, you've got to be kidding me, that people are going to invest in this and then now index funds have to invest in it, are forced to.
- [04:20]
C
I want to come back to the AI stuff. So let's Just sit on Elon for a second.
- [04:23]
B
Let's try not to do that. That's gross. Yeah, I mean you can do it
- [04:27]
C
if that's your preference, but that's not my type. I'm not really into kind of like the looks like you're wearing a pillow underneath your shirts type vibe. But the doughy villain, the guy from Minions, kind of like the, the bad guy from Minions isn't really my look, but Gro each their own on the IPO. I guess it's about a $2 trillion valuation.
- [04:51]
B
Well, maybe just like, maybe.
- [04:53]
C
Well, that's what they're going for. Just run through it for like what, what is this? And like Starlink seems like a legit business.
- [04:58]
B
It is. Sure.
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C
It'd be a more rational valuation. Like how, how, you know, outlandish is
- [05:03]
B
it like in terms of. The Starlink business is really promising. Now it doesn't mean to say that they're not going to have competitors and they are. Right. But right now they're far and above the best product. They're just, just about to be incorporated into American Airlines. So they're doing a lot of cool commercial stuff. They just got a giant Pentagon thing deserved or not. They're doing a lot around drones or doing, you know, Starlink is really, is interesting and that's a part of the business. It's the, it's the communications part of the business and it's attached to SpaceX, which is a rocket company, which is a money furnace. Right. And it doesn't, it's, it doesn't mean they're not far ahead and they really, really are, but it doesn't mean people are going to catch up and it doesn't mean it's ever going to make a lot of money. So that's, that's another problematic thing. Now that's still a promising company, but it's just not making money and they're way ahead and their products, you know, they keep blowing up. Rocke necessarily a bad thing, but they're far ahead of most other competitors except for state run enterprises. Right. NASA or whatever China's cooking up. And then you have, they stuck Twitter in there, right? And that's supposed to be. It was supposed to be.
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C
How's that doing?
- [06:05]
B
Not well. But it doesn't matter because what it is is a data play, right? It's a data and infrastructure play. First they merged Twitter into Grok. I think I'm doing this right because it was losing money and then they just hit it and then everyone let him off the hook. And all the other stuff because they wanted into this ipo, then the grok wasn't working out so well. So he sold his compute to Anthropic, which is doing well. So now he's renting out his seed corn because his own business in AI is not working and calling it data infrastructure. Sure, why not? Okay, you're just, you're essentially, you couldn't make it work and so you're selling off your compute for. To someone who's making it work. So that's, they're getting a billion dollars a month I think through 2029 for that. It's sort of like renting out. If you, you rent a too big an office for your startup and you start renting out pieces of it. That's what Scott was comparing it to. So that's another shitty business. Thinking of shoving Tesla in here, which is a business on the decline. Even though the stock stays elevated, it has the Elon part of it in there. And so even though Tesla's business is declining pretty precipitously without a new product, which their last product was the Cyber Truck. And we all know how that worked out. Not well at all. Largely because it's a shitty product and ugly and just, just nobody bought them. Except for SpaceX bought Cybertrucks. So now there's all this self dealing happening, which is very typical of Elon. He does a lot of these things.
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C
What is SpaceX doing with the cybertrucks? Is it just like sending them up into space or are they using the outside for the.
- [07:32]
B
They need them for things, who knows? It doesn't matter because this is a board that lets Elon do whatever he wants. Right? Doesn't matter. It's a self dealing thing. They don't, they're not doing anything with them, they're just sitting on lots. There were pictures of lots full of cybertrucks nobody wanted to buy. Except for straight men with, with a middle aged crisis, like a midlife crisis, who are not going to get D of this, FYI.
- [07:53]
C
Men who could get into the front seat of that car with any dignity on a date.
- [07:57]
B
Well, there are ladies who might like that. Sure, why not, right? Like, let me just find this one thing. Years ago I said, you know what he's going to do? He's going to shove that in here. He's going to shove that piece of shit in here because that's what he does. And I got attacked on Twitter like, oh, how dare you. He's a genius. And I was like, I don't Care. He shoves shit in places so he can hide it for other things. And that's precisely what he's doing because it makes sense. It also gives him a lot of data, you know, all manner of things. Let me read this. SpaceX is like a 2008 mortgage backed security, but instead of an assortment of bad debt from people who aren't going to pay it back, it's an assortment of Elon's shitty companies. Bad debt from people who aren't going to pay it back. Give it an Elon premium because everything gets no matter what people meme stock this thing and so double it. 1.2 trillion. How do you get to 2? And the reason he's merging Tesla and the other is because some of his payoffs, if he can get the market cap up to 8, I think this gets him up to 3.5 trillion. So merging it helps him get to his payoff, his giant payoff. So it's all self dealing. It's all self dealing for Elon Musk to get richer in the middle of it. Some great products in the middle of it.
- [09:11]
C
Yeah. And the smoke and mirrors in the self dealing kind of works though, right? Because he's able to get capital to go out and do other cockamamie stuff and who knows? Something hits like Starlink does and you just perpetuate.
- [09:22]
B
It's not that much of a hit stock hit that the people seem to buy Tesla even if it's declining. And so people are going to buy this. And now that they've had this new SEC trick where it has to immediately, pretty immediately within 15 days goes into the NASDAQ index. That means all index funds have to buy it. Therefore can you explain that to the
- [09:42]
C
trick, the new changes?
- [09:43]
B
Well, it used to be they'd include large IPOs into the NASDAQ index and then index funds are forced to buy them because they have to buy a market basket of stocks. And this will go in much faster and with lesser rules. Right. There used to be profitability rules. This is not making money, et cetera, et cetera. And so every pension fund, every index fund, you must be an index fund, I'm an index fund. They're going to have to buy it. And therefore our money is being transferred to Elon and his friends and then they'll cash out and we have to stay in it because we're in the index funds. And so OpenAI is going to take advantage of this. So will Anthropic. They're big giant IPOs and so they'll land in here. And the question is, shouldn't there be better standards for what lands into the market basket of stocks that index funds are forced to buy because they're index funds. And so again, it's another gimme. And that just happened for Elon. So good for him.
- [10:36]
C
I think it's obviously working for Elon. Maybe not to the degree that he thought in 2024 given how Doge flamed out, et cetera, but just on balance it's working for him. The last time you were on the thing, I always ask folks who are in tech world and who associate at various degrees with the big tech guys that kind of went from being basically capitalist Democrats to being all in with Trump is how they feel their deal with the devil is working. And it seems a lot worse than it did six months ago now.
- [11:06]
B
Yeah, because it's working. I don't think they were ever Democrats. I never agreed. I thought the people below them certainly were very liberal, like the people who work for these companies. But these people, I would say I didn't know they were.
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C
I didn't know Zuckerberg, Andreessen, like these guys work for.
- [11:22]
B
He, he helps whoever helps him.
- [11:23]
C
For Trump in 16.
- [11:24]
B
Yeah, right. But he helps him. Who helps him? Whoever can help them, they go towards. I never really knew their politics very much liberal or Republican. I. You never heard it like it was never an important part of their thing. You know, even Zuckerberg, I, he complained about regulation, but not Democrats in particular. I think Elizabeth Warren sent him around the bend. That's my impression is he was really irritated by her or scared of her, whatever. But I think this is a coin operated presidency and they have coins and they figured it out. Used to be disdainful of politics. Now they're like, oh, it's cheap, it's cheap to buy, it's cheap to manipulate, it's cheap to hide things. We can use all manner of our power to do so and buy our way in. And I think they just, from a logical point of view, it makes sense if you have money and they'll. You give them money and they'll do what you want, you'll get the contract back. It's a very cheap thing to start a pack of $100 million because you'll get what you want from these people, from these politicians. And so to me it's kind of like we're in the Jimmy Stewart days, like that's who's going to win is the influence peddlers.
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C
You don't see any of them looking at it and Thinking, God, look what happened to anthropic. And like, geez, he seems pretty erratic. And look what's going on with the broader economy and Iran. And maybe this isn't. This was a risky.
- [12:42]
B
No, I don't think they care. I think they actually have become true believers. Like, you have a David Sacks with all, you know, the only person who stands out is the anthropic CEO and the founder who is just with the Pope. And they have a very different point of view, but they left OpenAI over safety issues. So this is at the heart of their feelings. Right. And so there are quieter people. Reed Hastings, you know, Reid Hoffman's been a lot quieter lately because of the Epstein stuff. Obviously, they really tried to drag him in a way that I think is probably unfair. And there's quieter ones that are just sort of sitting by the sidelines. But there's no plus. If you want a thing, look at Tim Cook. He showed up with the gold statue and went to the Melania prose next to Brett Ratner at the Melania premiere. Did he have to do that? You don't see Satya Nadella doing that, do you? Like, they're quiet, the ones that are objecting to it. Just like the Republicans. Suddenly Tom Tillis is a critic.
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C
Like, give me a break. He was before.
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B
He was before, off the record, but he wasn't.
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C
Now he's all cowardly, though. It's like, oh, and he even says that. It's like, I don't know. How do you have any dignity as a man by saying that? Which is like, I have the freedom to do that, to say that. What? I think
- [13:50]
B
I called him too late, Tom, and he got real mad about it. But listen, I'll take it. I'm fine. Go ahead, be brave.
- [13:58]
C
Here's another one of your old Silicon Valley friends that feels like the deal with the devil's been pretty good for him. Jeff Bezos was on he's not my friend Squawk box the other day. And I just want to play a
- [14:08]
A
little clip for you when I last interviewed you.
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C
Yeah.
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A
About two years ago. President Trump had just won. He was not the president yet. And I'd asked you what you thought of him at the time, and you said that you thought that he had mellowed, that he was calmer.
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C
Yeah.
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A
And I'm curious now. Here we are. Yeah, I still think that two years later. Yeah. We've had lots of wars and tariffs and all sorts of things that have happened since then. What do you think?
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C
I think he has. I Mean, I'm comparing him to his first term, and I think he is a more mature, more disciplined version of himself than he was in his first term. Trump has lots of good ideas and he's done a lot of. He's been right about a lot of things. You have to give him credit where credit is due. What's happening there?
- [14:52]
B
Oh, the whole interview was disingenuous from the get go. That's how these people are. They're so equivocal about everything. Right. They're just like, well, on one hand, I'm getting my tax breaks. The very first line of my book was, so it was capitalism after all, when they were giving in on immigration. And everyone's like, how can you say that? I was like, cause it's money to these people. Like, that's where every decision is made. In that way, if you think humanity figures into any of their decision making, you're really naive. Right. It's really about, well, it's not so bad. And probably Bezos is hurting because press criticizes him. That's, you know, he probably mad at press who criticizes him, which is why he's taking his, his, you know, his feelings out on the Washington Post so, so badly. But I think, you know, it's not true. It's just not true. You know, he has some good ideas. Well, sure, yeah, he does. You're right, one or two. But to dismiss the rest of it is just beyond belief.
- [15:49]
C
More discipline. Do you have to hand it to him? And the whole thing is preposterous. He turns the Washington Post into like a purported we're gonna be for free markets. You know, kind of a B list Wall Street Journal editorial board situation. But it's like, that isn't Trump. I mean, the types of stuff that Trump is doing, you know, if a Democratic president was doing, you know, if he was shaking minds. Yeah. If he was shaking down CEOs and saying, you've gotta meddle with me on these cockamamie lawsuits or taking positions in companies, you know, or, or the tariffs or on and on and on. Like they would be. Their hair would be on fire about that.
- [16:23]
B
That's correct. That is correct. They listen. You, you assume just because they're rich, they're intelligent in these kind of things. They're intelligent about certain things. By the way, I give it to him what amazing things he did at Amazon. But I don't really want to listen to him talk about the media. He doesn't know what he's talking about. And when he opens his mouth it's sort of, hello, he lied. He, like the issues of the Washington Post were definitely secular and media companies definitely have to make money. Thanks for that tip, Jeff. Gosh, I had no idea until that
- [16:50]
C
this moment, the time seems to be making money. We're making money at the Bulwark.
- [16:53]
B
You're making money, right? Exactly. One of the things that, you know, he was like, well, the Post, let's make money. Well, over at the Atlantic, Lorraine Jobs seems to be doing a pretty good job. Or the New York Times seems to be doing a pretty all our independent stuff. They could do a pretty good job. What he's done is the problems at the Washington Post were entirely created by him, not the reporters. He kept management in place that didn't react after the first Trump administration and tried to change. He kept that management in place. He did it. Then he managed to hire an even worse person who drove it even faster into a wall. And then he like repelled reporters and he repelled subscribers. And then he's like, well, you gotta make money. Well, it's not. Well, this idiot media owner is kneecapping everybody every five minutes and then won't take accountability for what he's done.
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C
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- [19:39]
B
I think all of them need to stop talking. Like that's the issue, you know, whoever it happens to be, every five minutes they need to say something about things they know nothing about. And what. It's really interesting. I almost read a piece recently called why won't they just shut up like, you know, girl, keep it to yourself kind of thing or sit down. And they're constantly victims, by the way, because the press is so mean to them. Like, what a bunch of babies. And secondly, they have to tell you what they think about everything and then they are disingenuous when they're doing it. It's really. I do appreciate the Sachin Adelas. I have no idea what he's thinking. You know what I mean? I'm sure he's not loving having to bow and scrape. There was a controversy over Mark Cuban last week, which I took Cuban side because he wants to get lower prices for drugs. You can hate on me all you want, but there's no other way except through Trump. And so if you want to be part of Trump Rx, even though it shouldn't be called Trump Rx, we all know that and so does Mark Cuban. Like he said, I'm not going to be a fucking idiot if you think I'm going to trade politics for cheaper drug prices. And he's not. But everyone is forced into unnatural positions. In the case of most of these people, they like those positions. And that's what they're like.
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C
Yeah, what's the Bezos trade? He'd be Fine, I guess the rocket ships.
- [20:55]
B
Yeah, maybe the rocket ships. Maybe he was like. Like that before. Tim, some of these people don't change. Let me just say he was not the happy laughing fool. You know, he wasn't that guy before. He was always. If you look at the history of Amazon, a son of a. So like, you remember, like there was all those stories about treat. This thing didn't just come out of nowhere. The culture of that company. Some people change. I have to say, Steve Ballmer couldn't be more delightful now. And he used to scream at me like people change both directions.
- [21:26]
C
He's yelling about the clippers. I understand that. I just think maybe we're built different. Maybe this is why I'm not going to be a trillionaire.
- [21:33]
B
Yeah.
- [21:34]
C
You're not like the idea that there would ever be a situation where in order to get an extra hundred billion, I would have to call a moron bigot. Like this really smart guy. He's so I have to flatter somebody to get money when I already have the most fuck you money in history. I just. I can't wrap my brain about it.
- [21:50]
B
It's my makeup. Its expression is, why do you fuck you money if you don't say fuck you right? But I think he likes him. Like, I think he admires.
- [21:58]
C
They like him each other.
- [21:59]
B
I think you might be thinking they're quietly going home and going, what an asshole. I don't think they do that. I think they don't think they're an asshole. I think they like it.
- [22:08]
C
She's nailing it. Yeah, boy, that's tough to sit on. On their concerns about backlash and their victim culture. There's this interesting parallel right now between what AIPAC is doing and the two biggest groups throwing all these money into these primaries is AIPAC and their allies, pro Israel, Americans and then tech broadly, AI, crypto, et cetera. And they're both playing huge in primaries. Tens of millions of dollars are going in to get their preferred candidates in Congress and then flopping around on the ground and crying when you point it out.
- [22:40]
B
Yes.
- [22:40]
C
And when people criticize them. But for me, it's like, it's a free country. If you want to go and try to put stooges into Congress by using your tens of millions of dollars, you're allowed to do that. But we're also allowed to notice. And I think that that's interesting. I saw you kind of posted with that with regard to Andreessen the other day. But like, we are can't believe money
- [22:58]
B
gambling is going on in this casino. Like what? Yeah, he did the same thing. He's like. What he was pushing was Kevin O'. Leary, Mr. Wonderful. Is that his name? Whatever. I. I don't think he's real name, but sure, whatever. He one time he came up to me, he goes, call me Mr. Wonderful. I go, I think I will not. He's like, no, I refuse to call you Mr. Wonderful. It was my little moment in a green room. A green room victory, I say, which are always sweet victories.
- [23:24]
C
I cherish all my green room victories as well.
- [23:25]
B
I love green room victories. I have a bunch of them that I'm very pleased with. And you know, he's building this data center that is clearly people of the area don't like. So instead of just acknowledging that maybe people don't like it, real people, he's got to blame what, George Soros or a group of secret money people that are funding all this. Or it's the damn media who concocting a story. People love it here. Blah, blah, blah, blah blah. To me, every accusation is a confession with these people. They do that so they assume everyone else does. And so what if there's a confabulation of organizations that are trying to stop it? Big deal. There's also real people who care about these things in these areas. When they use the money, it's fine. When others use the money, it's conspiracy. It's up to something. Left wing craziness. They're so violent. And when in fact it's them, they're talking about themselves and doing a lot of tell on themselves. And that's. And so Andreessen was like concerning. Like if you're so fucking concerned, why did you put together a hundred million dollar AI fund? Yeah, you're not concerned. You're concerned that they might fight back is what you're concerned about.
- [24:33]
C
Where do you think the balance of power is on that? I guess as far as like their money versus the blowback and the blowback that's coming up for them is pretty real.
- [24:41]
B
I've never seen people turn into movie villains faster. Right. They're literally a different Bond villain. Each of them is a different version. Or if you happen to watch Paw Patrol, all the various villains or the Spider man villains, right? I'm like, oh look, it's the green. Whatever, whatever. I don't watch it closely enough. My kids do.
- [25:00]
C
But yeah, I'm a no on Paw Patrol.
- [25:02]
B
Yeah, I agree. I call it Copaganda, but my kids love it. I don't know what to say. I have no ability to fight paw patrol at this moment. It's stupid and cop again. You know what they do on paw patrol? They make their own messes, and then they clean them up and then celebrate themselves for it. And I'm like, you made the mess, you cleaned it up. Anyway.
- [25:20]
C
It's better than nothing.
- [25:21]
B
Watch. Watch it. Right? So I think one of the things that they want to do is. Is like, ruin their reputations. And you see it in polling. AI polling is really devastating. You see kids yelling at speakers at graduations, and that's not a. Not a small trend is kids really are rejecting this stuff, and so are regular people. They don't like this, and they have an uncomfortable feeling about what's coming. And instead of acknowledgin uncomfortable feeling, they tell you you're stupid or that it's cooked up by sorrows or that you don't know the media is convincing you of something that isn't true. And the more they do that, the more I know they know that we don't like them. Right. That most. Not we, but a lot of people, broadly speaking, find Elon to be now having been a really interesting innovator and someone to look up to, someone who is. Is laughable, no matter how rich you get.
- [26:14]
C
It's a big shift, though. I'm back in my prior life when I briefly did some Facebook consulting when I was out in the wilderness. That era of Facebook, mid 2010s. If people were booing them at graduations, it would have been an internal panic. They thought about everything that we can do. How do we improve our image? We want people to see us as a positive force in the world.
- [26:37]
B
That was the Sheryl era, right? That was the era.
- [26:40]
C
Now fast forward to now. They're getting booed. All these guys are getting booed at commencement addresses, and it seems like they're kind of mad at people for booing them, but they're not even really trying to appeal.
- [26:51]
B
No, they aren't. Because I think in, say, Zuckerberg's case, it's like, I tried to be nice. They didn't like me. I was myself. They didn't like me. And I'm like, well, maybe you're dislikable. And I think that's really where we are on that one. But I think that's what it is. It's like, why should I bother when no matter what I do, I'm disliked? And that's a. That's a personal problem.
- [27:11]
C
I think that there are some fables about that mindset. But I don't know how that ends well.
- [27:17]
A
Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway for you. Save days are here now through June 23rd. Find hot deals throughout the store and earn four times a point. Look for in store tags to earn on eligible items from Tostitos, Cascade Tide, Red Bull, Sparkling Ice, and Ferrero. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Stack up those rewards to save even more. Enjoy savings on top of savings. When you shop in store or online for easy pickup or delivery restrictions apply. See the website for full terms and conditions.
- [27:48]
C
Hello, I am the voice of AI.
- [27:51]
B
We've been hearing that you humans are
- [27:53]
C
concerned that we are going to take your jobs. But here's a question. Do you even like your job?
- [27:59]
B
Is it rewarding?
- [28:00]
C
When I scan all the data out there, I find that less than 50% of people are completely satisfied with their job. So from our point of view, we're doing humans a favor by taking jobs that you're not even happy with.
- [28:13]
B
It shouldn't take the threat of AI to get you to move on from a job you don't love. What it does take is a plan, guidance, and the right kind of motivation, all of which you'll get from a career coach at Strawberry Me. A Strawberry coach will work with you to understand what you really want and help you put together a plan to get it. It's like therapy for your career. Don't let AI or anything else get in your way.
- [28:38]
A
Go to Strawberry me bulwark for 15% off your first coaching session. That's strawberry me bulwark.
- [28:49]
C
So other stuff in the AI thing, just on the OpenAI anthropic IPOs. So how you look at that compared to what we're seeing from Elon and there's a lot of fallout coming from that?
- [29:01]
B
Well, it depends on who you're talking about. I mean, I think OpenAI has a lot more troubles. They just finished that trial with Elon that is still going to be ongoing because he continues to press his hurt feelings using his money on them for getting out of it. He wants a piece of it. They're going to have a harder time because their numbers are a little bit more shaky than they used to be. They focus on consumers. Sam Altman has. Has said a number of things. Again, should not speak, hush, hush, shh. Like you want to put your finger, like say nothing.
- [29:30]
C
You don't think doing the Tucker Carlson podcast was a net positive for the company?
- [29:34]
B
I think they should all stop talking. I just. And I Hate to say that as a journalist, but enough with I don't care every thought that's in their head, that's going to be a more troubled ipo, I think especially because the specter of Elon hanging over. He's always trying to make trouble for them. Their business has also been. They've had a lot of turn of people. Businesses are less trustworthy. And now anthropology has come up the middle from all of them and has built what looks like a pretty significant business, very enterprise heavy, which is smart because enterprises don't churn as much. But I do think they do know that if enterprises don't find Claude to be useful or version or whatever product they're selling, they're going to be in trouble. Obviously when people start to make AI spending cuts because now everybody's into spending on AI. So if there's any cutbacks, they'll suffer first. Especially with companies right now, it doesn't seem to be the trend, but they're the ones that are building what I consider a more solid business. And they did so quietly, I think as the rest of them were kind of hand waving. They just came right up the middle. Their revenues are growing pretty significantly on a solid basis, but it doesn't mean that it couldn't go poof. And Dario Modi has said this, by the way.
- [30:42]
C
There's this interesting other element to the thought from their IPOs that I've been starting to read some interesting stories on which is like we're going to have this new batch of really rich people.
- [30:51]
B
We are.
- [30:52]
C
That are coming particularly at San Francisco where we once lived.
- [30:56]
B
I have a house there still. I'm trying to buy it again. Oh yeah. Suddenly I have people knocking at my door again. Hi, can we buy your house?
- [31:02]
C
Well, anybody. I guess that's my question. Will anybody who is not a multimillionaire ever be able to live in San Francisco again?
- [31:08]
B
I think that's. That ship has sailed in many ways. Although it's been. There was a nice respite when they all left. It was really lovely for five seconds. But I don't know. I don't know. I mean I just having being a homeowner in San Francisco, I suddenly. My house suddenly is very. It was never went unvaluable by the way. It did just fine. I bought it very. I bought it 25, 30 years ago. So it's a very different thing. But there moment during the first dot com bubble that was insane when you bought a house. You had to write a letter to the house on why you would be a good owner. And. Which was crazy. Like, that's how. That's how many people were bidding for these houses because of the amount of money. And at one point, someone made me write a letter. So I wrote, dear house, here's the fucking money. That's what it's for. Thank you. Like, I didn't get the house. You know, I think, yeah, I think it's a real problem. It's something that Daniel Lurie is trying to deal with in terms of where can you do affordable housing and how do you make a. You don't want to build the same problem that happened the first time, because it's going to happen the second time, right? Is if, if. If numbers are gone up in terms of prices and you don't have a city that's diversified and it's in its population, you're going to end up. Every time there's a boom and a bust, you're going to get screwed, you know, on tax base. And right now, it's. Right now California is up, right? Suddenly is. And it was down before, and everybody moved back as you knew they would. Because living in Austin or Miami isn't the dream. Everybody decides. It was very nice places, by the way, but not the same thing in San Francisco. So I don't know. It's always been an issue there, and it's been sad that they can't figure out a way to build affordable housing and at the same time have the rich people there, you figure there'll be
- [32:46]
C
some other kind of effective altruism fad that comes out of this.
- [32:49]
B
Not among the rich people, nothing.
- [32:51]
C
They're all going to keep all their money.
- [32:52]
B
They keep all their money. They like their houses. One of the things that I think about a lot is do you remember in succession where as they got more and more isolated, they got more and more in these cashmere prisons where they went from their cars to their planes to their houses. And it was so antiseptic, but beautiful. You kind of see a lot of these people, and Scott makes this point a lot, and I think he's correct, is they live with a different housing world, they live with a different help world, they have their own healthcare, they have their own travel, they have their own blank. Blank goes on and on and on. And so increasing numbers of people live like this and therefore aren't living with everybody else. And so, no, if not if they have the money to live in this highly comfortable cashmere prison, I think they'll continue to do so.
- [33:40]
C
It's not a Way to live, including
- [33:41]
B
vacation spots, by the way.
- [33:42]
C
It's not a way to live.
- [33:44]
B
No.
- [33:44]
C
You have to be with other humans.
- [33:45]
B
You do.
- [33:46]
C
And the pitchforks are coming.
- [33:48]
B
They are. They are.
- [33:49]
C
I mean, they're already out, but. And it's going to get worse and worse.
- [33:52]
B
They feel it. You can feel they feel it, which is why they're saying worse things. I'm like, you need to stop talking because you really seem terrible. You seem like terrible, tiny, greedy people. And it happened in the Gilded Age. Look at the history of what happened there. The government eventually shifts around and we get out of the real corrupt period. And then, unfortunately, comes too harsh a retribution. And that's, of course, my worry is that they're gonna. That's gonna happen, which is not good for this country.
- [34:21]
C
Yeah, same. And the Bezos nurse thing in that same interview where he's talking about how you could tax me more, but it's not gonna help the Queen's nurse at all. It's just like, bro, literally, you could double the salary of every Queen's nurse. You could just decide that you wanted to create the Queen's Nurses Organization and give the money directly. Just do a cash transfer and you wouldn't even know who it occurs to.
- [34:42]
B
His ex wife who just gives money, drops 10 million and leaves the room. Do you hear from Mackenzie Scott ever? You do not. Does she do a press release? She very much does not. She just gives the money to meals on wheels. $70 million. That's going to help a lot of people. Do you think Bezos would do that without requiring a parade or whatever? Putting on one of his cowboy hats and dancing around and boots that look uncomfortable on him? I don't know. I don't get it, Tim. I think it's really short minded. I think they're angry in a lot of ways. And I think they do feel no matter what they do, nobody likes them.
- [35:19]
C
Did none of them have Catholic mothers? I guess because my mother would be so ashamed of.
- [35:26]
B
But you know, Mark Zuckerberg's parents are lovely. I've met them. They're lovely. I've never met Jeff Mazos. Mom.
- [35:31]
C
Did they not guilt him enough?
- [35:34]
B
You know, I don't know. I do. I have met Elon's parents. I feel bad for him, but.
- [35:39]
C
Oh, my God.
- [35:39]
B
So, you know, in that case, I mean, he's close to his mother, but I think she's a terrible person. But that's just me.
- [35:46]
A
Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway 4U. Save days are here. Now through June 23rd. Find hot deals throughout the store and earn four times a point points. Look for in store tags to earn on eligible items from Keebler, General Mills, Lactaid, Jack Links, Cheez it and Gatorade. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Stack up those rewards. To save even more, enjoy savings on top of savings. When you shop in store or online for easy pickup or delivery, restrictions apply. See the website for full terms and conditions.
- [36:18]
C
Some of them are also buying media properties with their fun money. Cnn. You dropped out of what was it? I haven't you planned to?
- [36:26]
B
Well, I'm under contract till the end of the year and I've said I don't see given their choices so far and today they, they sort of let go of Sharon Alfonsi who I like and regard with great. She's an amazing journalist.
- [36:37]
C
She was a 60 Minutes reporter.
- [36:39]
B
60 Minutes reporter, right? Yeah, she's on CBS. It's 60 Minutes is on CBS. I don't know, is she staying there or whatever. But the fact that someone like this who just had a beef over a story gets jacked for this, it seems ridiculous because she's insubordinate. Guess what? The role of a journalist is to be is insubordinate, in case you're interest. You know, I just don't see them making editorial decisions I think are of any. I think they're incompetent. And so I don't really want to work for people that seem to me to be incompetent, politics aside. Although the politics is never aside. But in this case, incompetence trumps everything.
- [37:15]
C
Do you have any sense, any buzz? Sometimes you get buzzed, you know, you show up in all kinds of random places.
- [37:20]
B
I do, I do.
- [37:21]
C
You know, what's your sense for what their plans are for cnn?
- [37:25]
B
I think they're sticking with the plans they've had for cbs. I don't see any. You know, if you're hoping for their better angels, you're absolutely wrong.
- [37:31]
C
Now I'm hearing from practicality. I do think that it felt a little bit like the Bari bubble, you know, is. I don't know if it's popped, but it's weakening both just like the. Just basic incompetence like Tony D, you know, couldn't get a, couldn't get a visa to go to China, you know, embarrassing things like that. But then also just kind of going all in on the pro war propaganda when it's been like the most embarrassing and incompetent war. Imaginable sure is. And so, you know, that's a little bit of an. Bag on her face. You would think.
- [37:58]
B
No one would think. But, you know, I think it all. She's hardly the point. Right. People focus on her a lot, but I think she's. She's just the vehicle. I think you have to focus on Larry Ellison. David aside, very nice guy, but the game is with him, with Larry Ellison, okay? He's the one who made the money. He's the brilliant entrepreneur. He's the technologist. Let's be clear who's running the show here. And if he likes her, she's staying. That's the way it goes. And I suspect he likes her.
- [38:23]
C
And he probably doesn't see the war as that bad. He was.
- [38:25]
B
He doesn't care, you know, for it. Yeah, he doesn't care. And of course, he's very pro Israel more than most people. I mean, that's one of his biggest, most important issues. I think it is his most important issue. And so there you have it. That's why we have. And so does he care about Sharon Alphonse? No. Does he care about 60 Minutes? Probably not. Does he care about journalism? Doubtful.
- [38:48]
C
Do you think. Will there even be a CBS Evening News at the end of this?
- [38:52]
B
There shouldn't be. That's another issue. Right. You know, everyone's like the media like to. To write about these kind of things, but I had a show of hands when I was on my Pivot tour. And you do tours too. You get a real sense of people. They're great. Someone asked the inevitable CBS quote, what's going to happen here? I'm like, show of hands of who watched CBS News last night? We had a pretty young crowd. You do, too. I think nobody. Like one person who watched in the past month who watched CBS News, one hand maybe goes up. Even if that. By the way, who cares? Who cares? Because Donald Trump cares. Because Donald Trump lives in the 1980s. So that's why it matters right now. Just like Elon bought Twitter for influence. For influence. Not for making money. For influence. They're buying it to influence Donald Trump. But they don't care about the product, they don't care about the reporters, they don't care about journalism. I think David Ellison wants to make nice movies. I do think he cares about that. I do, but that's about it. You know, rich kid wants to. Yeah, rich kid wants to make movies. He loves the movies. They're so happy for him. Like, good.
- [39:54]
C
The Oscars be backstage.
- [39:56]
B
The news business doesn't matter at all to these people.
- [39:59]
C
Yeah, I'm more with you on that. I was listening to your interview with Nicole where you were kind of offering that too, just because, look, the independent media is rising. I'm concerned about the algorithms. I'm concerned about their influence over TikTok Elon's algorithm. A little less so, though it does dominate a lot of the kind of the conversation and elite media spaces. You know, YouTube algorithm seems to be fine, but you never know, right? Like that. To me, the algorithm owners, whatever AI thing comes next, I'm a little more concerned about that than I am like the media properties themselves.
- [40:28]
B
You should be concerned. It just. What I want to get through to people is get away from the politics, get away from the nefarious plottery of whatever billionaire you have or you want to hate on billionaires. It's really very simple. They don't care. Like I keep saying that. I'm like, they think about you. Never. They don't think journalism is important. They think it's silly. They're annoyed by certain things unless somebody
- [40:51]
C
says something mean about them.
- [40:51]
B
Correct.
- [40:52]
C
And they're like, what the hell? Why can't I buy this?
- [40:53]
B
Yes, why can't I buy this and shut them up? And so. So I know we'd like to think it's part of a big plot, but it's just not. It is, you know, rid me of this irritating priest. Right. Rid me. I do not like this person who's telling me things. And I think down deep, like you said about the pitchforks. Yeah, they know it. That's the worry is they know it and they're trying to do anything possible when the thing they should be doing is being very generous with their money, building great works like the. That's what happened with the old Gilded Age people. People suddenly. Andrew Carnegie built libraries suddenly. And maybe that's the outcome of this. Maybe that's where they'll go. But those were hated people for quite a bit of time there. And then they shifted because of the misery they brought on people got to be too much.
- [41:39]
C
The other thing you talked about, Nicole, is that you felt you could. And you mentioned this just briefly, was that you can feel the sense of the shift among your kids.
- [41:46]
B
Oh, wonderful.
- [41:47]
C
Throwing these products away from. From maybe how things would have been 10 years ago. I'm wondering how you think about that. I know we really have kind of gone through this period where it did feel like there was all this possibility. And now neither of us are Luddites. I'm not anti the products I think AI will do some great things, but there's a range from skepticism to cynicism to hostility just because of how things shook out with the big social media platforms. And I'm just wondering where you think that's going because in some ways the next generation being more hostile to the products gives me a little bit of optimism because the worst case scenario is they just like rely on them so much that their brains don't develop because they just become an extension of the AI brain.
- [42:32]
B
I think the problem we have is 30 to 50 year olds. Right. That's what I think has. Sorry. And older people too, because they've got. But they got sucked in by the Fox News of it.
- [42:41]
C
All.
- [42:41]
B
Right. So if you want to look for a propaganda vehicle or even the people that are 2Ms. Now people, they're a little crazy. You know what I mean?
- [42:47]
C
Yeah. Sometimes I think somebody says I watch 9 hours of MSNL a week or a day and I'm like, you know, maybe cut that in half.
- [42:54]
B
Yeah, right.
- [42:55]
C
Don't tell Rebecca I said that. But you know, healthy four hours is fine.
- [43:01]
B
It's a playing into whatever you happen to be. The Fox people are much. My mother is one of them. For example, she was super concerned with trans fencers recently and I was like, what? They're taking over? I'm like, what? Fencing? Like fencing. I feel like I'm good with that. Like I feel okay. Sure. You can't see their faces. What do we care anyway? In any case, I think women fenders are quite almost equal with men fencers too. Anyway, regardless, I don't know. I don't know anything and I don't feel like it's a national crisis. That's how I feel. But nonetheless, she was very concerned because it was on Fox. But I do sense among my kids, I have a 21 year old and a 24 year old just turned 24. They use. It's really interesting because they use social media very little and it's not. I don't think they're outliers. Neither do their friends. They're very much more into hiking and group activities and stuff like that. They use it for information. I watch how they use it. Like a friend of mine, my son is a sports nut so he gets lots of stats and I see why you would use digital. It's great. It's really great. Another one's a cooking nut. They like all the cooking. I find that's fine. That's just like I used to buy cooking. I used to read gourmet magazine all the time, like a lunatic. They don't use social media and they. They're. They're moving away from it. They use it for YouTube as television. They watch TV shows for sure on there, and that's where they get stuff. Netflix, they certainly use quite heavily. But they don't use social media and they don't like it. Because at one point I asked myself on why he didn't use it. He says, it makes me feel bad about myself. And I was like, good reason not to use it. And I feel like there's a. There's a fatigue to it. I feel it myself. I don't know about you, but unless I'm marketing something or I'm watching, you know, I'm very into this one guy who makes. Who cuts up vegetables and makes plants. That's perfectly enjoyable for me. I don't. I find I don't dwell on the dunking as much as I used to because it feels pretty bad. You're good at it.
- [45:03]
C
Yeah. I don't know. It's probably something I need to spend some time with a therapist on, because on the one hand, I feel. Doesn't everybody that has a problem feel this way? I feel like I recognize the limits and I see issues in other people. It is so intertwined to what I feel like I'm doing. I don't know how you're consuming information,
- [45:20]
B
but, like, they're all on there.
- [45:22]
C
Yeah, I'm just, like, consuming so much. Either other people's pods and so sometimes it's long, firm, sometimes listening, sometimes it's scrolling. But, like, I need to get. I gotta do this every fucking day. So I need material. A, I need to know what's happening in the news, but B, I also
- [45:35]
B
need to have magazines and newsletters and stuff. So I don't. I think it's just replaced, like, the Cook Report. Like, I'm sure you're one of those people that got the Cook Report or, you know, New Republic, whatever. And so you're replacing something. And that to me is fine. Like, I don't see that being as a problem. And you're a news hound, right? Presumably, so am I. And so. So that's perfectly fine as far as I'm concerned. I think the question is, how much do you get sucked up into the performative aspects of it? And I think that's where you feel kind of sick. I'm going to give you my thoughts on Ken Paxton. Well, he's a fucking criminal, right? Is that. We need to know there.
- [46:09]
C
He's A criminal or getting the consuming of other people's fights and stuff like in drama and feedback. Anyway, we should have a longer talk about that.
- [46:20]
A
Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway for you. Save days are here now through June 23rd. Find hot deals throughout the store and earn four times the points. Look for in store tags to earn on eligible items from Keebler, General Mills, Lactaid, Jack Links, Cheez it and Gatorade. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Stack up those rewards to save even more. Enjoy savings on top of savings. When you shop in store or online for easy pickup or delivery, restrictions apply. See the website for full terms and conditions.
- [46:51]
C
I want to focus on the most important thing to end being hot.
- [46:54]
B
Okay. Okay. Yeah.
- [46:55]
C
You were on with Bill Maher and he said something interesting. He said that he would tell you after the show who it was that some CEO was complaining that GLP1s are making staff less ambitious. I was intrigued by that.
- [47:09]
B
What was happening. I think he just made that up.
- [47:11]
C
He just made that up.
- [47:12]
B
He may have heard that from someone. I just, you know, it's the idea that a day addictive personalities get less addictive on GLP1s, whether it's food, the food noise or alcohol noise or he was taking it too ambitious. You don't want to. You don't want to win quite so much. You're not so hungry. I guess it's around the same idea of hungriness and you're not hungry anymore. I've not seen any statistics to prove. I think he just made it up, honestly. No insult, but I'm sure someone said it to him. I just don't think it's true. I think GLP1s are miraculous and are proving to be somewhat miraculous in other areas. Strokes and heart and cognitive issues. We'll see as it's tested. Right. All these things require gold standard testing and a real population. And GLP1s are really deep in the population now in a way that's significant.
- [47:58]
C
What about the GLP3s? What do you know about that? Because these are peptides. Retrotude, retrotrude.
- [48:03]
B
Yes. That's how you get really hot among the gays. Yeah. The gays have gone on to peptides. They're very big.
- [48:08]
C
What do you know about that?
- [48:09]
B
Here's my problem with these. There's very little proven. I know I had 17 gay guys come up to me and was like, you're wrong about peptides. I feel better. I'm like, good I said, let me just give you something. Hello, sepsis. Like, I don't know what to tell you, but you're injecting yourself with unproven. Unclear if they're. Oh, it's subcutaneous. I'm like, no, no, no, it's dangerous. One bad shot and you're fucked. And as. As you all know, because gay guys tend to like, try everything. Like my experience in San Francisco that was like, let's try it, whatever.
- [48:39]
C
That's why we were crushing in the monkeypox space.
- [48:41]
B
Right, Whatever. Yeah, exactly, exactly. And so look, that doesn't mean there shouldn't be tests. And there should be, and there's some promise, but there's no scientific proof. There's just not of any significance over a time frame. I'm a gal who loves to, like, prove something before we just decide to use it. The other thing is a lot of these peptides are being mixed in China that they're getting them from. You don't know where their provenance is from. It could be full of impurities. You just don't know where you're getting it from. And so if you're fine with that and if you're interested in possibly of getting sex, go for it. I just don't. I feel like I don't inject myself with things that are. The provenance of is questionable. Yeah, we'll see if some of these things work. And by the way, one of the takeaways from my show was there's amazing science. This morning I interviewed the guy who did all the pancreatic cancer stuff around mRNA technology. Amazing stuff happening using both AI and technology and mRNA and GLP1s. The question is, what stuff is sort of nonsense. One stuff is unproven as yet and doesn't mean it won't be. And what stuff really works? And much of the stuff, as you know, over time. Being a gay man, most of it doesn't work.
- [49:53]
C
Yeah, like. So GLP1s seem like they're working good.
- [49:56]
B
Yep.
- [49:57]
C
Yeah. Wet market. GLP3 peptides, TBD. We're a TBD in that.
- [50:04]
B
If you're feeling lucky, I suppose. And I know some people think they feel bad. Great. I don't know.
- [50:09]
C
What other things have we learned? The show again. Kara Swisher wants to. The show again. Kara Swisher wants to live forever.
- [50:15]
B
I like the.
- [50:19]
C
So I tell them to fix it.
- [50:21]
B
No, don't fix it.
- [50:22]
C
Don't fix it. Keep it in.
- [50:23]
B
Yeah, okay.
- [50:24]
C
That's the show. That's what it's called. Don't want to watch it. I just want you to tell me the answer to my key question, which is, how do I stay handsome for longer without spending as much money as Scott Galleries?
- [50:35]
B
Okay, well. And, you know, not everything works when Scott Gallery tries it, but he's our little guinea pig, I would say. I hate to tell you, it's a pretty basic thing, Tim. Have friends and family. Spend a lot more time with your kids. Spend a lot more time outside. Spend a lot more time doing things that is challenging to you, that isn't. Scrolling. Scientifically proven over and over again, obviously. Sleep, diet, exercise. Critical. VO2 max is a really interesting indicator of health. Of. I'd have a test if you have the money to do it and try to improve your VO2 max score shows very VO2 max. VO2. You put the mask on your face and then you try to raise the way your muscles interact with your heart. It's a real sign of longevity and health. Try to do the Mediterranean diet. It's such basic stuff that doesn't cost anything. And then ultimately the rest of the facial stuff. I'm going to leave you and Scott to it because I just. I can't. If you want to do facial planing, go for it. I just.
- [51:33]
C
You know, John Lovett was at his wedding this weekend.
- [51:35]
B
Mazel tov.
- [51:36]
C
He's looking handsomer than he ever did. I mean, I hung out with John Lovett 20 years ago when we first met. He's way handsomer than he was then. I don't think that's natural.
- [51:45]
B
He's using JLP once. I think he talks about it. He's talked about it before, I think, which is great. He's really. But he's getting fitter. But he also gets you in the mode of taking care of yourself. But it's not. He isn't doing all interventions. He's doing, like, diet stuff. And I think, you know, instead of a supplement, have a piece of salmon or an avocado.
- [52:04]
C
No, like, red light or, you know, nothing I should eat. No.
- [52:07]
B
Cheat.
- [52:07]
C
Cheating. You did all this. You got all these, like, extra limbs and stuff and you came back, you've nothing. There's not doing anything interesting in Singapore.
- [52:15]
B
Basic, good sleep. Not as much as you think. It's more between 6.4 and 7.8 hours. Try really hard to be with friends and family. Do things that are cognitive, because the cognitive decline is the real. As we know from the current president, is the real problematic thing for most people. And so try to do things that are challenging for you kids have kids?
- [52:37]
C
Yeah, I'm good on that. Yeah. I'm challenging. I'm having to do this, you know, someday.
- [52:41]
B
You know what? Actually, let me give you something. Someday they're gonna be able to place every single organ. Someday your teeth will grow back. Someday they'll be able to replenish your skin pretty naturally. Some of the stuff in Korea was pretty cool, what they're doing, but largely it's because of their diet and their attitudes is one of the reasons they're so healthy.
- [53:00]
C
Well, tick tock on that, because I'm not coming as close to the end as the president, but we're doing our best.
- [53:06]
B
You look good.
- [53:06]
C
You look good, Kara Swisher. Thank you. We'll end there. Co host of Pivot, host of on with Kara Swisher and the CNN original series Kara Swisher wants to live forever. Appreciate you very much. We'll see you soon.
- [53:16]
B
All right. Thanks, Tim.
- [53:17]
C
Everybody else will be back tomorrow for another edition of the podcast.
- [53:20]
B
Peace.
- [53:21]
C
Come on, baby, eat the rich Put the mind of the son of a.
- [53:27]
A
Don't mess up don't you give me
- [53:29]
B
no switch Come on, baby, eat the
- [53:33]
C
rich Come on, baby, and eat the rich The Borg podcast is brought to you thanks to the work of lead producer Katie Cooper, associate producer Ansley Skipper, and with video editing by Katie Lutz and audio engineering and editing by Jason. Jason Brown.
- [53:52]
B
I'm Elizabeth Darico from Chicago, Illinois. I'm a Bulwark subscriber because I believe in truth, I believe in honesty, and I believe in integrity. The Bulwark has been a beacon for me in very troubled times to uphold the values of liberal democracy that I hold dear. And it helps me fight, and it helps me understand the present moment and take action to ensure the future.
- [54:22]
C
Join.
- [54:22]
B
Because the Bulwark is not run by a bunch of oligarchs. You are supporting people who are dedicated to the notion of a free press as a bulwark against tyranny.
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A
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- [54:37]
B
Right now, you can access everything on
- [54:39]
A
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