Bakari Sellers: The Danger of RFK Jr.

Summary

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The Bulwark Podcast

Episode: Bakari Sellers: The Danger of RFK Jr.
Date: September 23, 2025
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Bakari Sellers

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Episode Overview

This episode features Tim Miller in conversation with Bakari Sellers, attorney, CNN political analyst, and author of "The Moment: Thoughts on the Race Reckoning That Wasn’t and How We All Can Move Forward Now." The two address current political developments, the dangers posed by RFK Jr. and the broader implications of pseudoscience at the highest levels of government, recent controversial press conferences, disinformation around vaccines and autism, media free speech, Democratic leadership, and the realities of American political realignment.

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Main Themes

• The rise of pseudoscience and misinformation in the Trump administration and the consequences of empowering figures like RFK Jr.
• The cruelty and dangers of misinformation about autism, vaccines, and public health.
• The media’s current free speech battles and political interference.
• Corruption and ethical rot in American government.
• Self-critique and strategic imperatives for the Democratic Party in the face of evolving political realities.
• Honest reflection on the post-George Floyd racial reckoning and its aftermath.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. On RFK Jr., Trump, and Pseudoscience in the White House

[02:03 – 04:51]

• Recent White House press conference was described as “Veepish,” with Trump and RFK Jr. blaming Tylenol for autism.
• Sellers criticized the lack of scientific rigor and the danger in having figures like RFK Jr. in positions of power:

  "RFK, his pseudoscience, lack of common sense... it's inherently scary to have those three (RFK, Trump, Dr. Oz) over our medical devices in this country." — Bakari Sellers (04:42)

• Miller called out the irresponsible claims:

  "If your whole press conference was about how we found this one ingredient that is causing autism, that you would have, like, I don't know, said it once before. But that's not how our president rolls, not at all." — Tim Miller (03:12)

• Sellers explains Tylenol's history and how its introduction post-dates the discovery of autism, making their claims incoherent.

2. Vaccine Panic and Cruelty

[07:56 – 09:28]

• Miller underscores the cruelty of blaming mothers for their children's autism:

  "It's fucking cruel. I can imagine if you have a kid with autism and ... then you got the president up there being like, well, it was your fault, Mom ... It's sick." — Tim Miller (08:21)

• Sellers highlights the absurdity of men with no understanding of childbirth telling women to “tough it out” instead of taking medication during pregnancy.

3. Disinformation from the Podium

[09:39 – 12:50]

• Tim recaps further misinformation from Trump on vaccines (e.g., Hep B, MMR, vaccine “water” theory) and the use of podcasts as references (e.g., Theo Von’s interview with an Amish guest as “evidence”).
• Sellers lampoons the White House’s "veepish" quality and describes the surge of “barstool wisdom” overtaking actual policy:

  "You don't expect that podcast to be picked up and being asked and quoted in a presidential press conference on a very, very landmark issue such as autism and Tylenol." — Bakari Sellers (13:55)

4. Media Free Speech and Corporate Pressure

[17:00 – 19:55]

• Miller and Sellers discuss recent actions by Nexstar and Sinclair to preempt Jimmy Kimmel after his controversial comments, and tie it to FCC merger politics:

  "There's a free speech issue where Jimmy is going to still be silenced ... about 60 of the ABC affiliates." — Tim Miller (17:01)

• Sellers notes Trump's unique blend of cruelty and financial self-interest driving political decisions, contrasting with bygone “scandals” like Lincoln Bedroom access.

5. Corruption and Ethics Breakdown

[26:37 – 29:01]

• Discussion of Trump administration official Tom Homan allegedly accepting bribes (in a Kava bag!)—the hosts wryly analyze the normalization of unethical behavior:

  "I have a rule against taking 50,000 in cash, like in a bag, a plastic bag or anything like that." — Bakari Sellers (27:14) "They just have this kind of thumb, their nose at the system. Ethics and rules don't apply." — Bakari Sellers (28:22)

6. State of the Democratic Party

[29:01 – 34:17]

• Sellers expresses deep concern about Democratic leadership’s lack of clarity and vigor:

  "Leadership or lack thereof ... Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries ... don't provide me any ease in believing that the Future of the party is strong." — Bakari Sellers (29:13)

• He points to promising local leaders but laments lack of national direction; Miller worries about how quickly Trump’s administration is dismantling checks and balances.

7. Kamala Harris’s Post-VP Book and Democratic Direction

[34:17 – 41:17]

• Sellers defends Harris's forthrightness in her new book:

  "She is telling her truth. And she doesn't have too many fucks to give. And I'm with it." — Bakari Sellers (34:33)

• Discussion about what, if anything, Democrats could have done differently in the face of political headwinds and whether imagination or boldness could break the party out of its strategic rut.

8. Reviving the Democratic Bench & Creative Strategies

[42:35 – 44:43]

• Sellers and Miller discuss party-building in deep red states, with Sellers advocating basics: local races, voter engagement, and pragmatic (if incremental) resource deployment.

9. Reflections on the 'Race Reckoning' and Backlash

[48:12 – 53:40]

• Sellers reflects on his book and the incomplete “race reckoning” of the 2020s, agreeing that backlash was underestimated and that not all post-George Floyd moves served idealistic purposes:

  "Sometimes people are in the movement for change, and sometimes people are in the movement for change (money)." — Bakari Sellers (49:06) "We underestimated what that backlash would look like." — Bakari Sellers (49:19)

• Both agree economic and systemic justice should remain central, invoking Jesse Jackson’s ability to unite diverse groups:

  "We need to go back to a party of Jesse Jackson." — Bakari Sellers (53:11)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• RFK Jr. and Medical Misinformation:
  "He's just a wild boy. And I'm not sure that's someone you want in that position of power... It's inherently scary." — Bakari Sellers (03:26)

• Cruelty of Trump’s Autism Comments:
  "It's fucking cruel ... you got the president up there being like, well, it was your fault, Mom." — Tim Miller (08:21)

• On the Breakdown of Political Discourse:
  "You're drinking out of a fire hose just like every day." — Bakari Sellers (11:41)

• On Free Speech in the Trump Era:
  "Sinclair does local news Fox for quite a while now and that's a real problem." — Tim Miller (17:13)

• On the Need for Democratic Reform:
  "If you give me $5 million in South Carolina, we ... might not win the state, but instead of getting beat, you know, 60, 39, you're now in a 52, 46 type of place." — Bakari Sellers (44:43)

• On the Racial Reckoning & Its Limits:
  "We were very, very close to having another period of Reconstruction ... it's oftentimes met with a fierce backlash. I think we underestimated what that backlash would look like." — Bakari Sellers (49:19)

• On Big-Picture Strategy:
  "If you want to center identity to that degree ... the white folks are going to start centering identity too. ... as a strategic matter it's kind of against liberal Democratic principles." — Tim Miller (51:29)

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Important Timestamps

• [02:03] Start of discussion on RFK Jr., Trump, and the Tylenol/autism press conference.
• [04:51] Sellers frames the “triumvirate” of Trump, RFK, and Dr. Oz as “inherently scary.”
• [07:56] Transition to the real-world impacts on mothers of such medical disinformation.
• [09:39] Trump’s further vaccine misinformation and referencing podcasts for policy.
• [17:00] Start of the Jimmy Kimmel/free speech segment and affiliate boycotts.
• [26:37] Discussion of the "Kava bag" bribe and normalization of non-criminal but unethical conduct.
• [29:01] Sellers critiques current Democratic leadership.
• [34:17] Discussion of Kamala Harris, her new book, and whether Democrats could have done things differently.
• [41:17] Creative brainstorming on how Democrats could break into currently unreachable states.
• [48:12] Deep dive into Sellers’ reflections on the racial reckoning and American backlash.
• [53:11] Sellers calls for a return to the inclusive coalition-building of Jesse Jackson.

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Tone Highlights

• Conversational, irreverent, and self-deprecating; a blend of sharp critique and gallows humor.
• Honest, sometimes raw acknowledgment of the cruelty and absurdity of modern American politics.
• Nuanced, occasionally world-weary, but striving for hope and practical solutions.

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Conclusion

This episode dives deeply into the intersection of political disinformation and public health, diagnosing the dangers of pseudoscience in the White House, and explores how media, corruption, and internal party critique shape the American political landscape. Sellers brings candor and humor to the realities of Democratic organizing and offers a sobering, nuanced reflection on the limits of America’s “race reckoning.” Amid the chaos, Miller and Sellers hunt for both accountability and solutions, reminding listeners of the urgency and stakes of today’s political moment.

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Transcript

[Bakari Sellers]

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[Tim Miller]

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[Bakari Sellers]

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[Tim Miller]

Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Delighted to. Welcome back. It's been a minute. He's a CNN political analyst and attorney. He's wrote a bunch of books. The latest one was the Moment Thoughts on the race reckoning that wasn't and how we all can move forward now. That's a heavy question. It's Bakari Sellers. How you doing, man?

[Bakari Sellers]

I'm doing well. It's always good to be with you. I hope you're doing well, man.

[Tim Miller]

In my little life here, you know, my family, New Orleans life is good outside of the Bulwark is good. Outside of my bubble. That's out of my control, man. That's not.

[Bakari Sellers]

I'll be in New Orleans. I'm gonna be in New Orleans. Coming up, I'm coming down to help out one of my good friends, Helena Moreno. Be the next man.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, you're helping out Helena? You name dropped her the last time on this podcast. I got my man Royce. Dude Duplessis is also in the race. State Center. Yeah. Good guy.

[Bakari Sellers]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

We've got two good candidates for mayor down here. Either one of them will be a big upgrade over our current mayor, who kind of just gave up on the job. A fun woman. Great. I mean, if I want to go down to Frenchman street, have a couple drinks and, like, get low with somebody, like Mayor Cantrell is towards the top of the list, but like the mayor, the mayoring job of mayor, kind of mayor got kind of bored with that.

[Bakari Sellers]

Mayor is a tough job. Mayor is a very tough job. And. And it's even tougher in a city like New Orleans. So. But Helena. Helena's gonna be. I'm supporting her. I'm gonna come down there and particularly on election night, try to celebrate that race with her.

[Tim Miller]

All right, well, holler at me. Well, we'll see you in person, hopefully. Let's get to the news. I guess we gotta start with. I was thinking about this because it's such a competitive category But I think that the press conference at the White House yesterday was actually the craziest press conference we've had in the first nine months of the administration. A lot of competitive, a lot of potential nominees there. I mean, the press conference of Zelensky was maybe the most offensive to me, the most maddening, but just like, pure, like, veepish. The most vpish press conference we've had, I think it was yesterday. It was Donald Trump and RFK Jr. And some others making some announcements about what they've discovered or they think they've discovered about autism. They are pinning the blame on Tylenol. And I want to play one clip in particular that just shows you how, how seriously Donald Trump took the kind of research on this topic before the press conference came out.

[Bakari Sellers]

Effective immediately, the FDA will be notifying.

[Tim Miller]

Physicians that the use of said, well, let's see how we say that. Acetaminophen. Acetaminophen. Is that okay?

[Bakari Sellers]

Which is basically commonly known as Tylenol.

[Tim Miller]

Got no faith in medicine. Acetaminophen. There you go. You'd think that if your whole press conference was about how we found this one ingredient that is causing autism, that you would have, like, I don't know, said it once before. But that's not how our president rolls, not at all.

[Bakari Sellers]

And I, I think that, you know, part of the inherent danger of this administration has been the danger around rfk and, you know, rfk, his pseudoscience is kind of lack of common sense, his past life, his life experiences. To sum it up, he's just a wild boy. And I'm not sure that that's someone you want in that position of power that they're in, where they govern the health of millions of Americans, particularly our youngest and most vulnerable. Tylenol came on the scene about 1955, thereabouts. Somebody will correct me on that, I'm sure. And autism was discovered in, you know, the 19 teens. So I, I'm, you know, I, I, I'm interested if there are any notable legitimate studies about this correlation between the two. But I do think that if you look at other things which cause serious deaths in this country, particularly those among, let's have a discussion about gun violence and, you know, what are, what are causing those guns, or childhood suicides or teenage suicides, to be specific. I just, I find this, and the triumvirate, for lack of a better term, of RFK, Donald Trump and Dr. Oz is, I want to laugh at it, but it's inherently scary to have those three kind of over Our medical devices in this country.

[Tim Miller]

I like how you pretended like you didn't know the year there. 1955. I googled it. You had it right. You nailed it right on the. Right on the. No False Modesty on the Bollocks podcast. I do wonder you mentioned that RFK is real danger here. Do you have to take any responsibility for that? I do get told a lot by commenters from time to time that I own all of this, even though I've been against Trump for 10 years because of my past, my Republican past, by the kind of transitive property. Do you take any ownership over rfk? You know, trying to get rid of the vaccine schedule?

[Bakari Sellers]

No, we. We traded that. That Kennedy a long time ago. They're Kennedys. We want most of them. We want Joey.

[Tim Miller]

I don't know. You guys are both Democratic trial attorneys, though. You know, you got. It's. There's something there.

[Bakari Sellers]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

You ever sign a brief with him?

[Bakari Sellers]

I've never. I don't think so. Jesus, let me pull that up and look and see. I did not. I have never written around with a bear in my trunk.

[Tim Miller]

I've never beheaded a whale.

[Bakari Sellers]

I've never done heroin. Heroin, as it's called. I haven't had any insects or parasites eating my brain or anything like that. I just think that we've lived a different lifestyle.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Never did heroin either. Scared of needles. Thank God. One of the great gifts the Lord gave me was fear of needles. To your point about that, the studies here, just for the interest of public information, Yale School of Public Health has said that frequent or prolonged use of acetaminophen has been associated with some disorders, but researchers have found no proof that it causes autism. There was a recent Harvard study that found a slightly increased chance of autism for women who took Tylenol while pregnant. But Harvard School of Public Health dean said it was possibly a causal relationship and more study was needed. There have been other studies that have shown some other things with even more association that they didn't mention in the press conference. One I just want to throw out there for you is a study that shows that old sperm causes autism. We've got a lot of older men having babies with younger women recently, and that. That geriatric sperm might. Might not, you know, might not be the healthiest. I'm not saying that, but I do think it's interesting that RFK and Donald Trump, of all people, didn't. Didn't choose that. You know, out of all the studies out there in the literature, that wasn't the One that they identified, I think.

[Bakari Sellers]

Well, I mean, your producers didn't do a great job because of the simple fact that I'm not qualified to talk about this. I'm on year seven of my sperm no longer working.

[Tim Miller]

So congrats.

[Bakari Sellers]

And I'm like, beyond the. Beyond the reverse.

[Tim Miller]

God, that's gotta be a level of freedom. Seven years of knowing it doesn't work. Listen, you go put your.

[Bakari Sellers]

Go put your legs up in the stirrups every now and then, those cold stirrups on your ankles. I brought my wife in and they cauterized it, so it's. You had to smell of it. And. But, you know, I. I am not qualified to talk on this topic because I went in, I went and did my duty a few years ago.

[Tim Miller]

Next time I'll. We'll have to start quizzing all guests whether they've gotten sniffed before I start bringing up topics. There you go. Well, they're kind of, I guess, related just in sense of where their mind is. These men. Trump and rfk. One of the other things that came up again, this press conference was supposed to be about their alleged reveal, which we're joking about it, but it's also like, scary and actually cruel and mean.

[Bakari Sellers]

When I was thinking about press conferences, though, we forgot the one that he was sitting across from the. I forget which president of the African country it was, and he.

[Tim Miller]

South Africa.

[Bakari Sellers]

Was it South Africa?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure he just insulted.

[Bakari Sellers]

The hell out of him while they.

[Tim Miller]

Were sitting there blaming his people for like a murder. For murder or something.

[Bakari Sellers]

Murdering white folk. That's a crazy one that goes up there with Zelensky. But please continue.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, no, I was just saying that it's fucking cruel. I can imagine if you have a kid with autism and you loving that kid and you want to make sure you did everything right, and then you got the president up there being like, well, it was your fault, Mom. You couldn't deal with the pain of pregnancy. You took a Tylenol. It's just. It's sick. Not that these guys ever actually think about anything like that, but in addition to the irresponsibility, there's like a level of cruelty to it that is.

[Bakari Sellers]

Yeah. And. And the question was asked, you know, what should. What should pregnant mothers do? And I mean, he was like, tough it out.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Bakari Sellers]

Like, dude, like, you're one of the weakest men we know physically. I mean, I don't understand women. Women giving birth is. Is probably the strongest exercise of the human being that you'll ever have. I mean, that is just some. I mean, they literally get an inch near death. Like, I know. You know the story of my wife, she nearly died in childbirth. She lost seven units of blood when she was birthing the twins. And so it's fascinating. And to have, you know, these kind of old, Old geriatric men up there, you know, telling women again, what they can and can't do with their bodies is. Is beyond fascinating.

[Tim Miller]

With their soft hands. I always want to. We'll do this just for the YouTube. I like to give this to the YouTube viewers once every kind of quarter, which is Trump getting scared of the eagle. That's the bald eagle. That's one of my favorite little videos.

[Bakari Sellers]

He just.

[Tim Miller]

It's like he's gonna get. He's gonna get bit by the. Be. One other thing on this. He went down a couple of other sidetracks, obviously. And I'm not gonna play all the audio. I did something with Sam Stein yesterday. Folks gonna listen to that. But talk about the MMR vaccine. He's talking about all this other stuff. Trump also started riffing on the Hep B vaccine, and he says this. He goes, hep B is a sexually transmitted disease, so there's no reason to give that back to the baby. Maybe we start giving it to the girls when they're 12. Now, there are a couple problems with that. Number one, the reason you give a baby the Hep B vaccine is in case the mother has Hep B and you're pre. Protecting the baby from the mother. Not that number two, is in his construct. He's like, when we need to start giving it to the girls as an STD vaccine is at the age of 12. Given all the Epstein chatter, I felt like that was an interesting year to choose 12.

[Bakari Sellers]

Yeah. No, between that and the New York Times story today on Elon Musk father.

[Tim Miller]

That's just horrifying story, to be honest. The Elon Musk father story, I had to stop reading it. It was so gross.

[Bakari Sellers]

Yeah. In the work that I do sometimes between. I don't really. It just. It kind of. It freaks me out, to say the least. But there are some untoward things that that White House should probably stay away from. And I. All of this is a distraction from releasing the actual files. I mean, I thought that. Thought that your good friend Cash Patel was gonna. For day one, he and Pam Bondi were gonna. Weren't you. Weren't you at the White House holding up the notebook? They didn't give you one of the notebooks?

[Tim Miller]

No, I wasn't One of the influencers that gave that. That binder to. Yeah, no, that was D.C. dran. The libs of TikTok, lady. It's not really my own.

[Bakari Sellers]

They don't hang out with you. Okay.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. No. Well, anyway, they should release where Trump has mentioned the Epstein files. And I guess I'm not saying that this is evidence per se, but it is noteworthy that Trump thinks that 12 would be the age that girls should start getting vaccines for sexually transmitted diseases.

[Bakari Sellers]

You know, the funny part about it is I missed that completely covering Trump. And I don't want to say that, because when I say covering, people mistake that for journalism, and I'm not. I. I have a huge respect for journalists. I get paid for my opinion. But even giving commentary during the era of Trump, I think I forgot how just stupid this shit all is. Like it. You're drinking out of a fire hose just like every day. I mean, I didn't even catch that part of the. You were so dumbfounded by the. By the sentence he said before.

[Tim Miller]

How could you. And the whole press conference was crazy.

[Bakari Sellers]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, like, there was one. There's too much water in the vaccines. The babies can't take it. And it was just totally. It was insane. It's. It was a total. It was like Cliff Clavin from Cheers. We're going to. I'm going to do, you know, elder millennial reference. That's probably Gen X even, you know, just at the end of the bar. But it's just. He's the president, and he just starts popping out. He's like, hey, do you guys know. You know, my old lady told me that you can't give the vaccine to the kids because the water. Too much water in the.

[Bakari Sellers]

And then he. Yesterday, he also went down a path.

[Tim Miller]

Oh.

[Bakari Sellers]

Where he was talking about the Amish community, and he was quoting, like, Theo Vaughn's podcast. I don't know.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, right. And I was just like. About how the Amish don't get autism.

[Bakari Sellers]

I was like, what?

[Tim Miller]

Like, I don't think that's right.

[Bakari Sellers]

What world are we living in? And I'm pretty certain that's not right, but, like, what world are we living in where. And I love Theo Vaughn, by the way. I want to go on his show one day.

[Tim Miller]

Same. I feel partially responsible for this because I've got a mutual buddy with Theo. Shout out to him. He's a listener, and I sent him a text and I was like, you know, I watched the Amish kid podcast that Theo did. Folks who don't know what we're talking about here. Theo Von is like one of these bro podcasters and he usually has. He's hilarious.

[Bakari Sellers]

Now you.

[Tim Miller]

He's hilarious.

[Bakari Sellers]

You have to be.

[Tim Miller]

Has on comedians and stuff. And then sometimes he says weird stuff on. And he had this Amish kid on. He started asking him, like, what was life like as an Amish kid? And it was like, really funny. I sent this to my friend. I was like, send this to Theo and tell him I want more of this. Fewer interviews where he talks to J.D. vance, right? Because, like, this man is not equipped to interview J.D. vance, right? Because he'll, like, ask him a question and JD will just lie through his teeth and like, Theo doesn't know enough to push back. It was just fine. God love him. I was like, he's very well equipped to ask an Amish kid whether they've got ADHD in Pennsylvania. Like, that's. That's like. I was like, that's his wheelhouse.

[Bakari Sellers]

But you don't.

[Tim Miller]

You don't expect that. And that's true. That would be the president's wheelhouse, too. Not telling women what to do during pregnancy.

[Bakari Sellers]

You'd also don't expect that podcast to be picked up and being asked and quoted in a presidential press conference on a very, very landmark issue such as autism and Tylenol.

[Tim Miller]

You don't. But here's. This is. This is the fucking real world that we're in. All right, everybody, time for a little life talk. I like giving out life advice. You know, I've been asking for people to ask me for life advice questions. For the FYPOD mailbag segment, you can email bulwarkpodcasthbork.com if you need some life advice from me. But as for today, I'm going to give you some life insurance talk thanks to our sponsor, Selectquote. You might already have life insurance, but do you know how much you're paying for it and how much you're being covered? Odds are you pay too much for too little. Did you know that if you receive life insurance through your job and you're unexpectedly laid off, you could suddenly be covered for? Nothing scary to think about, but simple to get right. Thanks to Selectquote where I headed to sort out my life insurance policy. For over 40 years, SelectQuote has been one of the most trusted brokers in insurance, helping More than 2 million Americans secure over $700 billion in coverage. Their mission is to find the right insurance policy for your coverage. Unique needs. Unlike other one size fit all life insurance companies, select quotes license agents work for you in as little as 15 minutes. They'll compare policies from top rated carriers to find you the best fit for your health and your budget and they work for you for free. If you have high blood pressure, diabetes or other heart disease or other pre existing conditions, Selectquote has partners with policies designed for many of them. So you can get the protection you deserve, get the right life insurance for you for less and save more than [e-mail] bulwark or save more than 50% on term life [e-mail] bulwark today to get started. That's SelectQuote.com bulwark Speaking of that, Jimmy Kimmel, we got a lot of Jimmy Kimmel news since we last hit the pod. We had a moment yesterday where free speech was alive and well. Bob Iger actually nutted up for once a little better late than never, I guess and said he's going to bring Jimmy back on the air. That's great. He's going to be on air tonight, folks who are interested in that. What has happened since though, has been a little more discouraging. And I think that there are some things that have happened this morning that are going to really be where the rubber meets the road on this issue. So Sinclair said last night that they're preempting Jimmy Kimmel now unless he donates to Turning Point usa. This is bad and ridiculous, but we've been living in this world where Sinclair does local news Fox for quite a while now and that's a real problem. Next, though, we have this next star which is the biggest of the ABC affiliates. Okay. They just said right before we started taping that they are also going to continue to preempt the show and their 28 ABC affiliates pending assurance that all parties are committed to fostering. And I'm not even going to read their bullshit statement. So here's the thing. Nexstar wants to be able to merge with Tegna and have a market share that's bigger than what's allowed currently by the rules. So they need the FCC to approve it. And so what we have here is like a straight free speech issue where Jimmy is going to still be silenced on if you had Sinclair +Nexstar about 60 of the ABC affiliates. So there's a free speech issue there.

[Bakari Sellers]

57, I think.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. But there's also on top of that, just this straight corruption issue that we're seeing across this Trump administration. You know, where these guys are like bullying companies to do what they Want if they're going to get what? You know, if they are going to get theirs from the government. So I don't know. What do you make of all this?

[Bakari Sellers]

So, yeah, I mean, I think that there's always with, with Donald Trump, one of the things that we oftentimes don't see the forest for the trees because as much as we want to see the hate and the cruelty, we oftentimes miss the business motive that is behind a lot of the decisions that he makes. Most of them are for some, you know, purely profit. You know the hundred thousand dollar card that, that they're selling now.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I mean just those H1B visas.

[Bakari Sellers]

1B visas. It would make Terry McCullough proud. That was a long joke from a while ago.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, we're a long way. Lincoln Bedroom, you know the Lincoln Bedroom scandal, which I was a repub. Was a child then actually, so whatever. But which I was against at the time, like makes it that much better. But they're donating this to the dnc, right. They're, they're donated to the political organization like the Trump's kids. Like it's Trump's kids and Trump's family and Wick's family. It's like in Tom Homan's own himself. Like these guys are like just taking straight cash bribes like it's a third world banana republic. It is a category difference a little bit from the Lincoln Bedroom.

[Bakari Sellers]

Huge. Huge. So anyway, so I think the first thing is you have to look at the business motive, you have to look at branding. Carr being a little bit out of his depth. But you know, I, I would still bet dollars to donuts today that he approves that merger because of the actions of NextStar. And so that's first. The second thing is you had this issue of free speech and you know, five years ago Democrats were going down this path where people were getting canceled because of their ignorance. And I, you know, I kind of hated that. I mean, I don't think you can foster good dialogue or teach people anything if you're canceling them because of simply things they don't know or the ignorant statements they make. But now you are having the, the total inverse of that. And Republicans are taking pride. Megyn Kelly, you know, she sends out. I think you got into it with her yesterday, didn't you?

[Tim Miller]

Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

[Bakari Sellers]

Oh, look at that.

[Tim Miller]

I'm to blame. It's my, my. One of my people killed Charlie. I guess because we're both white and, and thank trans people.

[Bakari Sellers]

Kind of sort of though. Y' all do have a similar look. I need to go look at the stairway picture.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, he's a lot younger than me, so I am keeping it. I am keeping it tight.

[Bakari Sellers]

You are. I mean, you're. And then you're doing that, are you. Are you doing Botox?

[Tim Miller]

Hell, no. No, man. This is natural. This is unnatural.

[Bakari Sellers]

This is all natural.

[Tim Miller]

Drinking water, if you're into that. You know, I've got. I've got a couple friends who are Botox practitioners. What do you say if you're selling BO slanging? I got a couple of people slanging Botox in my life, so nothing in that. Not. Not for me yet.

[Bakari Sellers]

So, anyway, free speech, being under attack. And then the last thing is, you know, Jimmy Kimmel. I thought that, you know, I'm not sure what he said that was so, like, offensive. I missed that. I've listened to the entire kind of rant, and I missed the. The part where people took offense. I mean, I. I've said this before on cnn. I'm concerned where we lost the nuance that we can say that we are bore and any type of political violence or an assassinations. And you feel bad for Erica Kirk. I was listening to CD Jakes yesterday. And you feel bad for his kids. And we've gotten away from actually having that kind of heartbeat where you understand that he was a husband and a father. But you can also, in the same, you know, sentence, be very critical about the way that he talked about black people or the very critical about the way that he talked about trans folk or the racism or bigotry or, you know, all of those things that were more than just innuendo or thoughts. If you go back and listen to his show and it's funny because you have this kind of generic framework, tweets. I don't know if you've seen them circulate where they're like, I sat for hours and watched all of Charlie Kirk's videos, and he was not racist or bigot. And it's like everybody's retweeting the same thing. I just think as a country, we. He was a complicated individual, and we have to be able to have complex and complicated thoughts as we talk about folk. And you just don't sanitize them because they die.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I agree with that. And the Jimmy thing, like, it was technically not true, but, like, okay, number one, he's a comedian. Lots of people said technically not true things. Going out and correcting it would have been totally fine. Saying, if you're. Whatever. Tpusa or whatever JD Vance or the president wanted to be. Like, Jimmy said this joke. It's not like the President's been above live tweeting tv and he loves doing that. He could have just done that. That'd be totally appropriate in the discourse. And those guys said way crazier shit than Kimmel said. I mean, J.D. vance was like there was a secret cabal of people that funded the assassination. I mean, I, that's direct quote. But that was essentially what he said. And his comment was way crazier than what Kimmel said.

[Bakari Sellers]

And not only that, but, you know, for me, I'm like old enough to remember like the list of Fox News hosts that repeatedly lied about the election. I mean, they, they sent text messages out saying one thing and came on TV and repeatedly lied.

[Tim Miller]

Or Paul Pelosi or you could go down the list.

[Bakari Sellers]

I mean, Donald Trump Jr. Had a picture of underwear and a hammer after Paul Pelosi was nearly murdered in his home.

[Tim Miller]

Sick.

[Bakari Sellers]

Sick. So I don't, you know, I just think that the conversations we're having right now, I just, I probably shouldn't feel like this, but I just throw up my hand sometimes and just say, I don't, I don't know.

[Tim Miller]

I get. Professor, I did peers yesterday and why.

[Bakari Sellers]

The fuck did you do that?

[Tim Miller]

Here's why. I told. I'm about to tell you why. Because I didn't want to do it. I didn't want to and I don't. I say no most of the time. But for this exact reason you said, I was like, I feel like people have been insane in the last week and a half and they don't broke any of nuance that what you're talking about. And I knew that what he wanted was to have one of these shows where there are liberals are like, Charlie Kirk is a transphobe. And like you. What you put out in the world, you get back and all this kind of stuff, which I just feel very uncomfortable with. I'm fine with saying what you just said. Like, we should be honest about his views. And he was against gay adoption. He doesn't think my family should exist. So I don't like, don't love Charlie Kirk's ideology. But like, but like, you know, I mean like some of the, some of the, you know, you know, what they wanted, they wanted that like kind of of some version of he deserved it versus the, you know, the folks on the other side being like, all the liberals are murderers and wanted. They want him dead. And the left has gone crazy. And the left is responsible for this. And I just, like. I felt like there's value to put out into the world right now. Actually, no, there are a lot of bad pundits out there and a lot of people out there that give shitty views and say things that are overwrought or hyperbole or false, and none of them are responsible for this. Like, we can't be in this place, man. We have to be able to live in a world where we debate and fight, and you deal with people that sometimes are bad faith, and you do so in the public square, and you don't get to a place where, like, people start to say, okay, well, your words are responsible for that assassination. Because then we go down to a really dark place, man. Because there's a lot of bad words out there. We got a lot of guns in this country, and I don't think you want to live in a country where. Where people start to take that seriously. And so, anyway, that's why I went on and did it. Probably in vain, but, like.

[Bakari Sellers]

Yeah, I mean. I mean, his peers. You're never going to change him.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Bakari Sellers]

And he's just a, you know, kind of weird cat, but.

[Tim Miller]

No, they're all weird. No doubt. Like I said, probably in vain, but I just was like, I don't know, man. Somebody's got it. I don't know. I felt compelled to get that out into the world.

[Bakari Sellers]

I'm glad you did it. I mean, I looked at the interview he did with my good friend Don Lemon the other day, and I was.

[Tim Miller]

Just like, I couldn't even watch most of that. I also turned that on. I was like, this is too much to kill.

[Bakari Sellers]

It just went. It went off the rails. Yeah, I don't watch. I can't.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, we're. I'm giving way. We're giving him too much time. I did that for his audience, not for mine. I'm sorry, folks. You should have fast forwarded through all that. Hey, everybody, you've probably heard me mention that the Bulwark is headed back on the road this fall, but we've got some big updates that I want you to hear first. Most importantly, we are adding a show in Toronto. I told you Canadians I was doing my best to make it happen. We've so. I'm so thrilled by the response we've had from our Canadian friends and wanted to make sure if you wanted to be able to come, you could. So we added a matinee, a brunch show, whatever you want to call it. Maybe a drag brunch don't tell JD Vance the next day. No promises on drag queens there, but, you know, maybe the spirit of a drag brunch. And so that will be Saturday the 27th. Go to the bulwulwork.com events to get all the details and to get your tickets for that encore show in Toronto, also New York, that's going to sell out here any minute. So if you want to see us in New York on October 11th, get your tickets ASAP. There's still a bunch of tickets left for DC on October 8th, but we've got some exciting guest announcements coming soon. So if you're interested in coming to dc, get on that as well. All the information available@the bulwark.com events. It's me, Sarah and Sam up in Toronto. Me, Sarah and JVL and some of our other Bulwark friends and. And a special guest in Washington, D.C. look forward to seeing you all out on the road. We'll catch you soon. Get those tickets. Now. I want to get to Democrat stuff, but just two other things really quick on this administration, the homan thing. And we've been talking about corruption a little bit, but, you know, I want you to put your legal hat on in addition to your politics. Hat on. And guy took 50 grand in a kava bag. Press secretary yesterday goes out and says he never took it. That's a smear. Then I was interesting to note that Tom Holman then went on Laura Ingram last night, and when she asked him about it, he never said he didn't take it.

[Bakari Sellers]

No, he said he didn't do anything illegal.

[Tim Miller]

He didn't do anything illegal. Which to me is an admission. But you hear about this more than I do. What do you think?

[Bakari Sellers]

One, I love Kava. Kava's a great restaurant.

[Tim Miller]

A little slot bowl.

[Bakari Sellers]

Yeah, Yeah, I love it. I mean, and I, I just, you know, I think that that that's indicative of the neighborhood they were in where this guy decided to pay. I also have a hard and fast because kavas aren't everywhere. So this deal didn't go down in the hood.

[Tim Miller]

Okay. I'm just. I'm just deducing all the things they got. They got. Any comments in the Rio Grande Valley? I'm sorry, I don't know if I need to be smearing our good friends in McAllen. I don't know if kava's made it down there yet, though.

[Bakari Sellers]

I have a rule against taking 50,000 in cash, like in a bag, a plastic bag or anything like that. Just, I mean, you know, Checks, you know, that's a lot cleaner than getting 50 grand in a bag of cash. The other thing is, I'm not sure he did anything illegal.

[Tim Miller]

Really.

[Bakari Sellers]

I think it's very, very, very untoward and. Yeah, very untoward and unaccountable push backing.

[Tim Miller]

About this lawyer, did he file it on his taxes, the 50 grand?

[Bakari Sellers]

Now, see that. Now that is a question that we don't have any information or facts on. But that would be his most glaring liability in terms of some type of perpetrating some type of fraud or anything. He wasn't in a position. He wasn't in a position to actually insure or give someone a job. Saying that I can help you get a job, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, is one thing, but I'm not sure that in itself, like, in theory, if.

[Tim Miller]

It wasn't a sting. You can't criminalize stupidity, right? Like if somebody wanted to give him 50 grand in the hopes that he would help them down the line, like, that's not illegal until it happens.

[Bakari Sellers]

In fact, I'm going to CAVA today to see if there's anybody in there just offering. But I. I just. And I have a hard time with him. I watch that. That was it. Lori Ingram.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Interview.

[Bakari Sellers]

I watched that Laura Ingram interview yesterday, and it's indicative of the entire administration. They just. They have this kind of thumb, their nose at the system. Ethics and rules don't apply. Okay. Even if it was illegal, Department of Justice ain't gonna hold me accountable, right? Like, I'm out here. I'm out here rounding up all the brown folk. Like, that's what I'm doing. And they don't like that I'm doing that. And I'm like, that has nothing to do with the fact that you have no ethics. Right? And so. So I'm interested to hear, if there was a sting, there has to be a DOJ or FBI agent who was involved in it. I'm interested to hear the tapes or hear from that officer about what happened and provide more context right now, I don't think he did anything illegal. I think it's unethical as hell. And I do like cava.

[Tim Miller]

All right, Bakari, let's look at the Democrats biggest picture. What has you worried about the state of the party? What's keeping you up at night when you think about where the Democrats are right now? What's got you sleeping with one eye.

[Bakari Sellers]

Open leadership or lack thereof? Chuck Schumer and Akeem Jeffries. They don't provide me any ease in believing that the Future of the party is strong. Now, I will tell you that the kind of 180 to that is like Brandon Scott, the mayor of Baltimore, Andre Dickens, the mayor of Atlanta, Frank Scott, the mayor of Little Rock, Randall Wolfen, the mayor of Birmingham, my good friend Helena Moreno, who's on City council, running for mayor. Down there, we have a bench of people who are doing great work.

[Tim Miller]

Work.

[Bakari Sellers]

Whether or not you're talking about improving literacy rates in these cities or reducing. BRANDON Scott, Baltimore. Baltimore has the lowest crime rate that they've had since 1970. He's reduced their violent crime by 50%. I mean, I just think that their platforms, that these individuals need to be on their messages that they need to. To be putting out. And the other side is you have people like, whenever there's an issue, you have Hakeem Jeffries putting out eight paragraphs on Twitter. Don't nobody have time to read all of that. I don't want to read that. That what keeps one eye open at night is just the lack of leadership in Washington that we're displaying.

[Tim Miller]

Just coming from the administration side of it. I don't know, man. The speed at which they have acted on a lot of this stuff, I think has been pretty noteworthy to me. There's nothing they've done that's like, oh, I'm surprised that they did that. But the speed at which they've kind of dismantled a lot of institutions and neutralized checks on their power, that worries me. And I wonder, kind of putting the Democrats aside for a sec, will there even be time to fight that back? You know what I mean? How do you kind of look at that when you think about, let's say, hockey and Jeffrey's got his shit together and the Democrats went back to the House, it's like, what worries you about what the administration is doing?

[Bakari Sellers]

I still think what went back to House, but I've been thinking about this analogy a lot. Donald Trump the bull in the China shop is a very real analogy. And I think it has a lot to do with what you just said, because when you have a bull in a China shop, until that bull either runs out the shop or whatever, that China is forever broken. Right? Donald Trump has forever altered the very foundation of this country. He has shook democracy at its core. And I don't think people take that seriously enough, particularly my friends on the center right and far right.

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[Bakari Sellers]

And so I though, understand political waves a lot like you do. And so I honestly think he only has about another 13, 14 months of effectiveness.

[Tim Miller]

Hopium Bakari is Back. I'm so excited about this. Sort of be able to get to talk about this a little bit more, but keep going.

[Bakari Sellers]

Yeah. I think that after the midterms, there will be individuals like JD Vance who will find ways to, you know, separate himself from Trump on certain issues. You'll have people who are running for reelection who are going to separate themselves from Donald Trump on certain issues, and you're going to have it in. I mean, right now, people just say it's Vance versus Rubio, but you and I both know it's going to be at least 10 people in that primary.

[Tim Miller]

I think my girl Megyn Kelly might be running. I don't understand what else is going to explain her behavior. Tucker, One of those, One of those, one of those podcast guys is going to be running.

[Bakari Sellers]

The only person who puts more pros out around serious issues than Akeem Jeffries is Megyn Kelly. Like, I was like, I can't get into a Twitter fight with Megyn Kelly because I'm not going to sit. I don't have time to read.

[Tim Miller]

I can't read all of that in response. I love that. I love Hopi and Bakari. That's great. Our audience could use that. The pushback to that is, what if their power grab is not related to the political waves and the political kind of back and forth, Right? Like, what if they lose in the midterms in the House and decide not to seat people and just decide that they're going to start dismantling the government even more? A lot of fucking damage could be done by 2028, even if they are politically weak, if they don't, if, if they act with impunity, if they act like they don't care about that.

[Bakari Sellers]

I mean, I still believe in the courts to a certain extent, that's qualified, to a certain extent. What we learned after 2016 and Donald Trump, and it also taught us that this country has a very, very short memory, is that people wanted, after four years of Donald Trump or whatever it was, they were really thirsting for it. After two and a half, three people wanted some sense of sanity, which is what. What Joe Biden projected, right? I'm talking about 2020, Joe Biden.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, sure.

[Bakari Sellers]

And he projected that sense of sanity. And I think people are going to be grasping for that again very soon because the chaos at which we are moving and people see the grift, I think people, people really see the grift. I mean, people are taken aback sometimes by the, the fireworks and the, the gold cards and the displays and The UFC fight on the front line. I mean, what is the. What is the White House becoming? And I think that there's going to be some. The greater majority of our country just wants to be able to have days where we forget who the hell the president is.

[Tim Miller]

All right, now we get to the juicy stuff. Your girl, our girl, the vp, Kamala, she's out there. She's got a book. She was out there last night. She's on Maddow. What do you think about this? It's kind of a quasi burn book. It's kind of a soft burn book that she's doing a little bit on the 107 days.

[Bakari Sellers]

I just think that she is. She is. Tell her truth. And she doesn't have too many fucks to give. And I'm with it. I mean, I spoke to her last week about it, and she's deeply concerned about the future of the country. She does not like to lose. She also realized that she was tired and she'd been in politics for a very long period of time, climbing that ladder. DA elections, Attorney General elections, United States Senate elections, you know, running for vice president, President of the United States. And she went through this process and she was disappointed with people. People. I mean, I think that this fair to say that the disappointment she had with the Obamas was palpable. If you read the book and look at the difference in the response between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, you'll see that there's frustration there. And the most damning of which is your. Your buddy.

[Tim Miller]

Which buddy?

[Bakari Sellers]

Gavin Newsom.

[Tim Miller]

That's my buddy. He's been on every podcast in the world except. You're welcome on the show, Kevin. Right now, I was on the common side of this whole fight, as you remember, but. But I do think this respect given it was pretty baller for Gavin to apparently text her hiking when she like, called him to. To. To get his endorsement officially. And then they never called hiking call later. And then they never spoke again the rest of the campaign. I was like, that's kind of an alpha move even.

[Bakari Sellers]

Even though if you know Gavin, that, that makes. That makes sense.

[Tim Miller]

Context of the time. I would have, I would have appreciated everybody being on board for trying to stop fascism. But you know, just as a, As a literary device, it's, it's, it's an interesting story and I have a. I.

[Bakari Sellers]

Have a unique relationship with governor's hiking. Being from South Carolina.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, yeah, that's true.

[Bakari Sellers]

You know, my governor went on the Appalachian Trail and never came back. So, you know, I understand yeah, that Gavin was hiking. I got in trouble for saying this a while ago, but it. It's funny because it became true when the book was written. But I said that, you know, they gave her. Her portfolio was trash when she got elected. Voting rights and immigration, two things that we know that we didn't have enough votes to pass. You know, Manchin and Cinema weren't voting for those things. And so it just gave her. And she talked about the handcuffs that people like Anita Dunn and Jenna Malley and Valerie Biden Owens put on her when she was Vice President of the United States. And I just, you know, it's her truth. I think Democrats. I think there are two books. I think the Democrats need to learn from Jake's book, and I think Democrats need to learn from.

[Tim Miller]

I'm here for the Biden talk because I think it is deserved. And I wish you would have said it during the campaign, to be honest, because I think probably would have helped her to get a little distance. And everything that she said about Biden was true. I guess I just, like, don't. And I hope to have a chance to ask her. I guess I just don't understand, like, what the point is about some of the other stuff, you know what I mean? Like, there isn't a lot of precedent for a book like this. Right. Like, this usually this kind of material about, like, oh, why did the VP pick so and so over so and so for vp? That's usually the kind of thing that would come out in John Heilman's book. You know what I mean? Not, like, not the principal. Not from her. Yes. Yeah. And so it's like, it is different to have, like, the principal out there, just, you know, I. Shooting a lot of daggers around all over the place. And I. I guess I'm just wondering why, like, what. What do you think is the reason, like, why?

[Bakari Sellers]

I mean, I. I don't think she has any to give. And I think that people still don't really know her. I mean, she's been. So whether or not she put herself in a box or her consultants or people around her put her in a box, when you get beat, there is a certain. I mean, we didn't win any swing states. There's a certain freedom to get in your ass kicked.

[Tim Miller]

Right. Right.

[Bakari Sellers]

I mean, that comes with it.

[Tim Miller]

There's another version of this, though, that could be like, all right, you do a little bit of talk about the real story with the Biden thing and the switch, which is neat. And then the rest of this is about fighting is about getting up off the mat. You can imagine a traditional politician book. Maybe we don't want a traditional politician book, but it's worth kind of thinking through that exercise. Right. Like you can imagine that book. And that's not this really.

[Bakari Sellers]

Yeah, that's not what this is really. I mean, I think. Think that. I mean, there's no space for what's. My friend Allen and what. They write the presidential books all the time.

[Tim Miller]

John, Allen and Amy Parts.

[Bakari Sellers]

Yeah, Correct. There's no space for that book because this is the definitive. Like this is it.

[Tim Miller]

She.

[Bakari Sellers]

She's telling you everything. She's telling you about the interviews they have for vice president. She's telling you how. It's a question that everybody has. It's a question that I have on a daily basis about Pete Buttigieg. Right. I love Pete. Pete's one of the smartest people I've ever met in my life.

[Tim Miller]

Life.

[Bakari Sellers]

I think Pete would be one of the best presidents this country's ever seen. The question is looming. Will America vote for gay men with beautiful kids? And, you know, as soon as the debate is over and he kisses his husband, what's the response? I mean, and. And that for me is un. Is an unfortunate reality of where we are as a country, but one that I'm hoping that Pete's willing to take a swing at the fences and say that the country is better than that and we're better than that. But those are conversations that people are having. Or Josh Shapiro, how he couldn't really be a number two.

[Tim Miller]

But how about I. I hear all that. And again, I don't. I don't begrudge her writing that or have. Or having that conversation. But there's like. The more relevant part of the conversation is like, what could she have done to have won? Right. Like, what would you. What should she have done different to have one? Maybe the. Well, I don't know.

[Bakari Sellers]

I think that's a short chapter because I don't think there's. I don't think there's anything.

[Tim Miller]

Come on.

[Bakari Sellers]

I don't think. I don't think any Democrat. I think the economic headwinds were too strong.

[Tim Miller]

That's crazy. You don't believe there was any possible way a Democrat could have beaten Donald Trump with his indictments and his weaknesses?

[Bakari Sellers]

I think he had a great deal of weaknesses, but I think the country was in a place where Democrats for far too long had put their head in the sand on issues like inflation and immigration and crime, issues that although the numbers may have been because as soon as somebody says something about immigration or crime, we would pull out a statistic. Statistic or crime chart.

[Tim Miller]

Well, then there's your answer, though. Why couldn't Democrats go to run somebody who didn't have all the baggage on immigration and inflation and crime? That would have been another. That could have been something to do. That's just an idea. While we're spitballing, I know it's your.

[Bakari Sellers]

Show, but let me ask you one question. What? Name one Democrat that could have won. And by the way, just understand, I think your viewers, your listeners know this and your viewers. Like, this didn't happen in a vacuum. Like, individuals in power around the world got beat.

[Tim Miller]

Well, she didn't get killed. I mean, it was not that. It was not that far away. So, like, look, I start to think about. You look at this. And I. I asked Pete this question when he was on. I was like, you get in a DeLorean, what would you do different? And it was all nibbling around the edges. And I guess my point is, like, I don't know, given the stakes, right? Like, if you. If you did something totally crazy, like, do you think Kamala and Cuban would have won? Do you think that Cuban could have softened the bros enough? I think maybe I would listen to that. Do you think that, like, if you did the swing state thing with Shapiro and Whitmer, they would have done better? Maybe. Maybe not. I know. Don't. I don't know. Maybe not.

[Bakari Sellers]

No.

[Tim Miller]

But, like, I think it's just worth talking through all that stuff. If Kamala had, like, hard distanced herself from him on a couple things, might that have helped? I don't know. Yeah, maybe. Right?

[Bakari Sellers]

Yeah. I don't know if that would have been enough. I mean, she didn't get killed.

[Tim Miller]

Correct.

[Bakari Sellers]

I just don't think that with the economic climate, not just here, but throughout the world, I think the political headwinds were against us. I do think that there are some interesting things.

[Tim Miller]

Merrick Garland could have indicted Donald Trump a little earlier.

[Bakari Sellers]

That would have. Actually, if Merrick Garland would have done.

[Tim Miller]

His job running against Ron Desanctimonious, probably would have been easier. Easier?

[Bakari Sellers]

Much, much easier. I mean, she. She beats him going away, but by the way, is he gonna run for president? I guess so. I forgot.

[Tim Miller]

It depends on how his wife does in the governor's race, I think.

[Bakari Sellers]

But I just think that, like, Mark Cuban is an interesting person. I will tell you that. I will tell you that. Anybody. They didn't really ask me, but I told them that Tim Walls was my fourth choice. Of those listed for vice president, number one was Mark Kelly, number two was Pete Buttigieg, and number three was Josh Shapiro.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I don't know if the VP would have really mattered. I guess my point is like Cuban would have just shaken things up. And this is not even really a particular endorsement of Cuban when he was on. We disagree on a bunch of stuff. My point is like, I don't know, sometimes I think that there is a failure of imagination. People get into this rut. So here's another example. This is one of my list of things I wanted to ask you about. On the failure of imagination question, how does a Democrat win in South Carolina? Again, like the Democrats, in order to be able to actually govern, need to be able to win in places besides the 25 states that Joe Biden won. How do they do it? What would be a way to do it?

[Bakari Sellers]

So are you asking about like South Carolina, Mississippi, Alabama, or are you asking like North Carolina, Virginia, Georgia, because those are different.

[Tim Miller]

I'm not asking on North Carolina, Virginia, Georgia, because Joe Biden won those states. Well, not North Carolina. I'm asking about South Carolina, Mississippi, Alabama or Iowa, Ohio, Texas. Democrats have to win in some of these places. And like, I don't think that there's a lot of creative thinking. I guess that's my point of critique of the Kamala thing. There's not a lot of creative thinking about like, like there's a lot of people being like, well, what do you expect, man? This is just the nature. It's a polarized time in the economy. And I'm like, like we're going in, we're running headlong into fascism here. Can we like try, can we try some off the wall ideas?

[Bakari Sellers]

I agree with you. There is a NC Action I believe is North Carolina. Damn, I can't think of the name of it. But they started with about eight $25,000 donors. And what it is is it's an organization that has, has separate C3s and C4s. One of them has consistently updated photo rolls. The others do outreach, etc, they provide grants. But what they really have done in North Carolina is go outside of those research triangle, Charlotte, etc, and they've gone into those communities, those rural communities day in and day out, knocking on doors, informing voters. And although you said something that I find to be like, we have to think outside the box sometimes the box is like where we need to be and we need to get back to.

[Tim Miller]

Those, start doing the box.

[Bakari Sellers]

We got to start doing those fundamentals again. In South Carolina, we have so many voters who have fallen off roads, who've been disinterested. You know, we had an amazing opportunity with, with Jamie Harrison when he raised $110 million or something like that. And I'm not sure it was a.

[Tim Miller]

It was a head burned. It might as well just throw it in the Atlantic Ocean.

[Bakari Sellers]

Jamie did what he could do in that race, but there are some things that we can, we can look back on it, and I think he would too, in some hindsight and say that there is some infrastructure, party building that we can do a better job of. In South Carolina, though, we have to start by doing things like running people for dog catcher, city council, state House. In states like South Carolina, Mississippi, Alabama, you just have primaries. All right. And people run unopposed for state house seats all the time.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Bakari Sellers]

I mean, it makes no sense. They run unopposed for local city councils and we have to do a better job of candidate recruitment, all of those things. Things, it takes money and resources. But if you give me $5 million in South Carolina, we might, we may not win the state, but instead of getting beat, you know, 60, 39, you're now in a, you know, 52, 46 type of place. And that means that you can have some, you can have changes in the legislature, etc.

[Tim Miller]

This is my problem with Jamie Harrison thing. It's nothing against him personally. This is an indictment of like the consultant culture. It's just like in everybody and the culture is like, nobody wants to talk each other, other. You know, this was a problem with the Biden thing. So this is where I did the one thing I disagree with, the convolent. I thought the Obama position was fine. It was like, we're in unprecedented times. Let's play it out. Maybe there's a stronger candidate than you. Probably not. It'll probably be you. But like, why are we, why can't we have a little bit of healthy disagreement? Because when you don't have healthy disagreement, it leads to things like spending a hundred million dollars in South Carolina and have it go nothing. I mean, like, what was the point of that money? Like, I don't want, you know, sometimes there's like a culture of like, well, what else were you going to do? I don't know, something else Besides spending on TV ads, losing by 20 points. You could have used it.

[Bakari Sellers]

My constructive criticism is about. Yeah, like, like long. Like when you look back at it, what, what was created in the long.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Nothing to benefit.

[Bakari Sellers]

Yeah. And so that, that's the concern that we have. And that's the same concern we have with, with, you know, the billion dollars that Kamala raised. I think that's, I think your criticism is fair, more than fair. I mean, it doesn't take a lot here in South Carolina, but it does take some, something.

[Tim Miller]

Last thing, I just real quick, in South Carolina, what about and maybe this is hopeless. I'd mentioned on last week some listeners didn't like it should South Carolina try to find some, I don't know, some good old boy that loves guns.

[Bakari Sellers]

I'm talking about this now. I mean, we, you know, I have a good friend, Jermaine Johnson, running for governor here. Yeah, but, you know, I, I don't know. I mean, if he runs against Nancy Mace, I mean, there are chances.

[Tim Miller]

Do you think Nancy Waste is mentally well, well, like, do you think that she is mentally healthy?

[Bakari Sellers]

I know Nancy very well. I know.

[Tim Miller]

That's why I'm asking. Do you think she's, I don't think.

[Bakari Sellers]

That Nancy is the same person that she was four, six, eight years ago, but I will tell you that I, I, I think she's mentally fine.

[Tim Miller]

You do?

[Bakari Sellers]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

You don't think she needs help? Like, if outside of the context of politics, if you guys are just friends, would you ask her if she, she might need to consider therapy?

[Bakari Sellers]

I think she definitely needs therapy. I think most of y' all need therapy, though. I mean, I, I, I'm in therapy for the motherfuckers who don't go to therapy. That's why I'm in therapy.

[Tim Miller]

So, yeah, the answer is I'm sorry. Okay, fair enough. Jermaine Johnson, your point is if it's, it's a tough race.

[Bakari Sellers]

It's a tough race. I mean, and to your, to your, to your credit, a good white male businessman.

[Tim Miller]

I don't even know. How about a black male business? Like the whiteness would help. Sure. A share, but like a black sheriff that also, like, thinks the gun rights are really important and isn't, like, has maybe some second thoughts about trans kids and sports. I don't, like, those aren't my positions. I'm just trying to, to like, come up with what, what, how do you model a person that wins there, you know?

[Bakari Sellers]

Yeah, I mean, that would be, that would be fascinating.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, nobody's trying.

[Bakari Sellers]

That would be fascinating. But that's, this still is South Carolina.

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[Bakari Sellers]

And Nancy's in, literally, Nancy's gonna have people who don't vote for because she's a woman. I mean, we still have, we still have voters like that. She probably is going to be Your next governor of South Carolina, though.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, my God. Okay. All right.

[Bakari Sellers]

Has she come on your show yet? Have you sent her your invitation?

[Tim Miller]

Nancy, you're always welcome on the show. Would love to hear from you. I got Wes Donahue waiting in the wings. We'll do kind of like a thing where we spring your old staffers on you on the show, kind of Jerry Springer style. All right, final topic.

[Bakari Sellers]

I will watch that.

[Tim Miller]

As mentioned at the top, thoughts on the race reckoning that wasn't. This is just on the top of my mind right now because you mentioned earlier this idea of canceling people for their ignorance, and maybe that went a little overboard. I had ta Nehisi Coates on a couple months ago, and I was asking him about this, like, about the backlash, and he said this. He said, I think all movements had their excesses, and I think all movements have their fools. And sometimes those fools have power, and sometimes those excessive people have power, and they do things that are not smart and not in service of the ideals that they claim to be serving. And that's where I just want. I'm just curious, your honest take on this. When it comes to the kind of racial awakening stuff that you wrote about in the book, how much of that was in service of the ideals that folks were claiming to be serving, and how much of that ended up being a little bit counterproductive to the service of the ideals that they were serving?

[Bakari Sellers]

I think that there is a little quip that people say sometimes, sometimes people are in the movement for change, and sometimes people are in the movement for change. And I think that's a fair assessment. We were very, very close to having another period of Reconstruction in this country. Country. And as oftentimes happens in the country, whenever you get close to having those periods or go through those periods through reconstruction, it's oftentimes met with a fierce backlash. I think we underestimated what that backlash would look like. Now, were there steps too far that we took when it comes to maybe things like black girl magic or maybe some of the stances we took on the LGBTQIA plus issues. Were there stances that we took. Took, you know, regarding monuments or painting roads or all of that other stuff.

[Tim Miller]

That the monument stances were good, but go ahead.

[Bakari Sellers]

I mean, that's not my ministry. I'm not going to be there in the middle of the night because substantively, I don't think that moves the ball down the road, taking down a statue or. Or painting Black Lives Matter square. Right. I just don't think that moves the.

[Tim Miller]

Ball and racism in the football field. You don't think that was the thing that was going to do?

[Bakari Sellers]

Oh, I mean, I thought Roger Goodell should have got the Nobel Peace Prize for that.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, just for that.

[Bakari Sellers]

And so I hope, I hope people hear the stark.

[Tim Miller]

It's interesting that the same stadiums that had end racism on the end zone, like up till like last year, maybe even some of them this year, also had like tributes. Charlie. Hagiography to Charlie Kirk on the board. You know what I mean? It's kind of like the winds are hollow, I guess is my point. And I would say that to the Charlie Kirk crowd too. These guys will turn back on you in a second.

[Bakari Sellers]

We still have systemic issues in this country that have to be deconstructed. And we still have issues such as, you know, people ask me all the time about systemic racism. Give me an example. What are you talking about? And I'm sorry, black women are still three to four times more likely to die during childbirth than their white counterparts. That's a fact. I'm not talking about people calling you. I'm talking about the access to quality health care. I'm talking about access to first class education, making sure that people are drinking clean water, not breathing in unhealthy air, making sure you're not living in food deserts. These things that although the correlation with poverty is there regardless of race, there is still is is an issue of race when you underline those things. And we didn't during COVID we had an opportunity to peel back the layer of the onion and unfortunately people got $1,600 to checks and the fight was not had.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I guess that's why, because I agree with you. All those things that you mention, like about healthcare and about access, clean drinking water and food, it's like pretty separate from like the Robin d' Angelo kind of identity side of things. I'll make a statement. Utah Fugitive. Agree with that. I think that in retrospect, elevating of diverse voices was good. Centering race across all verticals to a degree that a lot of folks in the movement did, ended up inevitably creating a backlash. Because it's still a white country, it's still a majority white country. And if you want to center identity to that degree, where identity is the first thing people talk about, racial identity in every case, like the white folks are going to start to start centering identity too. And that is not to excuse them for racist behavior. That's not to do any of that. It's just as a strategic matter it's just, it's kind of against liberal Democratic principles. But it also, I just think, is not in service of the ideals that you're serving and inevitably is going to lead to this place where there's like a real, a real backlash. I just wonder if you think other folks in your world reflect on that.

[Bakari Sellers]

I think you're right to a degree. And I think that you're, you're, your point, if people reject it, outwardly, they would be foolish because they need to hear that. And I think that that has a great deal of value. I think that there is a patent fear when you make that statement that people immediately begin to think like Bernie Sanders, right. And they're like, you know, you have this purely economic message or message about poverty that eliminates the overtones or undertones of race. Like, we've never dealt with that in the country where I think we need to go. And this is going to kind of weird people out. But if you go back and listen in 84 and 88, I think you'll be moved. We need to go back to a party of Jesse Jackson who was able to effectively, not just his oratory, but effectively bring communities of color, bring immigrants, bring working class folk together around those issues that we just talked about, which are not just, just issues of differences, but they're literally killing us. Jesse is somebody who, and by the way, you should get, you got to get Abby Phillip on the show. She has a new book on Jesse.

[Tim Miller]

I'm working on that. If you're, if. Well, if Republicans brought back Pat Buchanan, why not Democrats bring back Jesse Jackson? Do you have a favorite Jesse Jackson speech you want to leave people with? They want to go pick one. You got one or. Oh, I.

[Bakari Sellers]

Yes, actually, his 84 DNC speech. We start there.

[Tim Miller]

I feel like I watched that 18 years ago when I was Republican. So I'm going to go watch it after this. I'll probably have new, new eyes on it. I've had some changes in my life also that might give me some new perspective on that speech. And so I will do that after this. Bakari Sellers, man, I already always appreciate the time, man.

[Bakari Sellers]

I love you, man. Love your family. Call me if you ever need anything. I'll see you soon.

[Tim Miller]

All right, back at you. Hopefully we get to see you in New Orleans. Everybody else will see you tomorrow for another edition of the podcast Peace. Girl, you have no faith in medicine. Oh, girl, you have the basic medicine. You'll see the medicine. You'll see the medicine out. Girl. Is there a way to find a cure for this implanted in a pill. Just the name upon the bottle which determines if it will is the problem you're allergic to to a well familiar name you have a problem with this one if the results are the same. But see the medicine, you have a medicine out. Girl, you have no faith in medicine. Oh girl, you have no faith in medicine. The board podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.