The Bulwark Podcast

Episode: Bakari Sellers: The Danger of RFK Jr.
Date: September 23, 2025
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Bakari Sellers

Episode Overview

This episode features Tim Miller in conversation with Bakari Sellers, attorney, CNN political analyst, and author of "The Moment: Thoughts on the Race Reckoning That Wasn’t and How We All Can Move Forward Now." The two address current political developments, the dangers posed by RFK Jr. and the broader implications of pseudoscience at the highest levels of government, recent controversial press conferences, disinformation around vaccines and autism, media free speech, Democratic leadership, and the realities of American political realignment.

Main Themes

• The rise of pseudoscience and misinformation in the Trump administration and the consequences of empowering figures like RFK Jr.
• The cruelty and dangers of misinformation about autism, vaccines, and public health.
• The media’s current free speech battles and political interference.
• Corruption and ethical rot in American government.
• Self-critique and strategic imperatives for the Democratic Party in the face of evolving political realities.
• Honest reflection on the post-George Floyd racial reckoning and its aftermath.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. On RFK Jr., Trump, and Pseudoscience in the White House

[02:03 – 04:51]

• Recent White House press conference was described as “Veepish,” with Trump and RFK Jr. blaming Tylenol for autism.
• Sellers criticized the lack of scientific rigor and the danger in having figures like RFK Jr. in positions of power:

  "RFK, his pseudoscience, lack of common sense... it's inherently scary to have those three (RFK, Trump, Dr. Oz) over our medical devices in this country." — Bakari Sellers (04:42)

• Miller called out the irresponsible claims:

  "If your whole press conference was about how we found this one ingredient that is causing autism, that you would have, like, I don't know, said it once before. But that's not how our president rolls, not at all." — Tim Miller (03:12)

• Sellers explains Tylenol's history and how its introduction post-dates the discovery of autism, making their claims incoherent.

2. Vaccine Panic and Cruelty

[07:56 – 09:28]

• Miller underscores the cruelty of blaming mothers for their children's autism:

  "It's fucking cruel. I can imagine if you have a kid with autism and ... then you got the president up there being like, well, it was your fault, Mom ... It's sick." — Tim Miller (08:21)

• Sellers highlights the absurdity of men with no understanding of childbirth telling women to “tough it out” instead of taking medication during pregnancy.

3. Disinformation from the Podium

[09:39 – 12:50]

• Tim recaps further misinformation from Trump on vaccines (e.g., Hep B, MMR, vaccine “water” theory) and the use of podcasts as references (e.g., Theo Von’s interview with an Amish guest as “evidence”).
• Sellers lampoons the White House’s "veepish" quality and describes the surge of “barstool wisdom” overtaking actual policy:

  "You don't expect that podcast to be picked up and being asked and quoted in a presidential press conference on a very, very landmark issue such as autism and Tylenol." — Bakari Sellers (13:55)

4. Media Free Speech and Corporate Pressure

[17:00 – 19:55]

• Miller and Sellers discuss recent actions by Nexstar and Sinclair to preempt Jimmy Kimmel after his controversial comments, and tie it to FCC merger politics:

  "There's a free speech issue where Jimmy is going to still be silenced ... about 60 of the ABC affiliates." — Tim Miller (17:01)

• Sellers notes Trump's unique blend of cruelty and financial self-interest driving political decisions, contrasting with bygone “scandals” like Lincoln Bedroom access.

5. Corruption and Ethics Breakdown

[26:37 – 29:01]

• Discussion of Trump administration official Tom Homan allegedly accepting bribes (in a Kava bag!)—the hosts wryly analyze the normalization of unethical behavior:

  "I have a rule against taking 50,000 in cash, like in a bag, a plastic bag or anything like that." — Bakari Sellers (27:14) "They just have this kind of thumb, their nose at the system. Ethics and rules don't apply." — Bakari Sellers (28:22)

6. State of the Democratic Party

[29:01 – 34:17]

• Sellers expresses deep concern about Democratic leadership’s lack of clarity and vigor:

  "Leadership or lack thereof ... Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries ... don't provide me any ease in believing that the Future of the party is strong." — Bakari Sellers (29:13)

• He points to promising local leaders but laments lack of national direction; Miller worries about how quickly Trump’s administration is dismantling checks and balances.

7. Kamala Harris’s Post-VP Book and Democratic Direction

[34:17 – 41:17]

• Sellers defends Harris's forthrightness in her new book:

  "She is telling her truth. And she doesn't have too many fucks to give. And I'm with it." — Bakari Sellers (34:33)

• Discussion about what, if anything, Democrats could have done differently in the face of political headwinds and whether imagination or boldness could break the party out of its strategic rut.

8. Reviving the Democratic Bench & Creative Strategies

[42:35 – 44:43]

• Sellers and Miller discuss party-building in deep red states, with Sellers advocating basics: local races, voter engagement, and pragmatic (if incremental) resource deployment.

9. Reflections on the 'Race Reckoning' and Backlash

[48:12 – 53:40]

• Sellers reflects on his book and the incomplete “race reckoning” of the 2020s, agreeing that backlash was underestimated and that not all post-George Floyd moves served idealistic purposes:

  "Sometimes people are in the movement for change, and sometimes people are in the movement for change (money)." — Bakari Sellers (49:06) "We underestimated what that backlash would look like." — Bakari Sellers (49:19)

• Both agree economic and systemic justice should remain central, invoking Jesse Jackson’s ability to unite diverse groups:

  "We need to go back to a party of Jesse Jackson." — Bakari Sellers (53:11)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• RFK Jr. and Medical Misinformation:
  "He's just a wild boy. And I'm not sure that's someone you want in that position of power... It's inherently scary." — Bakari Sellers (03:26)

• Cruelty of Trump’s Autism Comments:
  "It's fucking cruel ... you got the president up there being like, well, it was your fault, Mom." — Tim Miller (08:21)

• On the Breakdown of Political Discourse:
  "You're drinking out of a fire hose just like every day." — Bakari Sellers (11:41)

• On Free Speech in the Trump Era:
  "Sinclair does local news Fox for quite a while now and that's a real problem." — Tim Miller (17:13)

• On the Need for Democratic Reform:
  "If you give me $5 million in South Carolina, we ... might not win the state, but instead of getting beat, you know, 60, 39, you're now in a 52, 46 type of place." — Bakari Sellers (44:43)

• On the Racial Reckoning & Its Limits:
  "We were very, very close to having another period of Reconstruction ... it's oftentimes met with a fierce backlash. I think we underestimated what that backlash would look like." — Bakari Sellers (49:19)

• On Big-Picture Strategy:
  "If you want to center identity to that degree ... the white folks are going to start centering identity too. ... as a strategic matter it's kind of against liberal Democratic principles." — Tim Miller (51:29)

Important Timestamps

• [02:03] Start of discussion on RFK Jr., Trump, and the Tylenol/autism press conference.
• [04:51] Sellers frames the “triumvirate” of Trump, RFK, and Dr. Oz as “inherently scary.”
• [07:56] Transition to the real-world impacts on mothers of such medical disinformation.
• [09:39] Trump’s further vaccine misinformation and referencing podcasts for policy.
• [17:00] Start of the Jimmy Kimmel/free speech segment and affiliate boycotts.
• [26:37] Discussion of the "Kava bag" bribe and normalization of non-criminal but unethical conduct.
• [29:01] Sellers critiques current Democratic leadership.
• [34:17] Discussion of Kamala Harris, her new book, and whether Democrats could have done things differently.
• [41:17] Creative brainstorming on how Democrats could break into currently unreachable states.
• [48:12] Deep dive into Sellers’ reflections on the racial reckoning and American backlash.
• [53:11] Sellers calls for a return to the inclusive coalition-building of Jesse Jackson.

Tone Highlights

• Conversational, irreverent, and self-deprecating; a blend of sharp critique and gallows humor.
• Honest, sometimes raw acknowledgment of the cruelty and absurdity of modern American politics.
• Nuanced, occasionally world-weary, but striving for hope and practical solutions.

Conclusion

This episode dives deeply into the intersection of political disinformation and public health, diagnosing the dangers of pseudoscience in the White House, and explores how media, corruption, and internal party critique shape the American political landscape. Sellers brings candor and humor to the realities of Democratic organizing and offers a sobering, nuanced reflection on the limits of America’s “race reckoning.” Amid the chaos, Miller and Sellers hunt for both accountability and solutions, reminding listeners of the urgency and stakes of today’s political moment.