The Bulwark Podcast: Ben Rhodes – "The World We Made"
Release Date: June 18, 2025
Host: Tim Miller | Guest: Ben Rhodes
Introduction and Guest Background [01:43 – 02:31]
The episode kicks off with Tim Miller introducing Ben Rhodes, a first-time guest on the podcast. Ben Rhodes is renowned for his role as a speechwriter and Deputy National Security Advisor under President Obama, his involvement with the Iran nuclear deal, contributions to MSNBC, co-hosting "Pond Save the World," and authorship of After the Fall: Being American in the World We've Made.
Ben Rhodes:
"I have a special segment for Worldos... there are four reasons I wanted to get you on the pod and the last one is hilarious." [02:06]
Tim expresses excitement about having Ben on the show, hinting at a special segment designed for their mutual audience.
U.S.-Israel-Iran Relations and the Impact of the Iran Nuclear Deal [03:12 – 07:36]
The conversation delves into the precarious state of U.S.-Israel-Iran relations, particularly focusing on the aftermath of Israel's bombing of Iranian facilities and its implications for the Iran nuclear program.
Tim Miller:
"We’re in this incredibly dangerous and volatile moment... It would take Iran, you know, estimates range from months into years, to both acquire enough nuclear fuel for a weapon..." [03:12]
Tim criticizes Israel's unilateral bombing of Iran, arguing it ended diplomatic negotiations prematurely. He suggests that Trump's administration was likely unaware of the full ramifications, betting against the theory that the bombing was a calculated psyop.
Ben Rhodes:
"You don't think that's the accurate story?" [05:09]
Rhodes echoes Tim's skepticism about the Trump administration's intentions, agreeing that Trump's alignment with hawkish elements likely influenced the aggressive stance toward Iran.
Critique of Israel’s Military Actions and Their Broader Implications [07:41 – 16:42]
Rhodes offers a nuanced critique of Israel's actions, acknowledging their strategic sentiments while highlighting the potential long-term consequences of such military aggression.
Ben Rhodes:
"What crazy about that idea?" [07:13]
Tim counters that bombing Iran's nuclear facilities is ineffective long-term. He emphasizes that decapitating a nation's leadership can lead to instability, comparing it to past U.S. interventions in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Tim Miller:
"I believe war to solve problems when there are alternatives that still need to be tested is just, is wrong... we're normalizing a lot of military force..." [09:46]
Tim underscores the moral and societal damage caused by excessive military force, warning against the erosion of international norms that prohibit unauthorized aggression.
Domestic Authoritarian Trends and Their Dangers [36:22 – 43:48]
The discussion shifts to domestic issues, specifically the alarming incidents of ICE arrests and the broader trend towards authoritarianism within the United States.
Ben Rhodes:
"What's your threat level right now?" [36:22]
Tim responds with concern, highlighting the normalization of military and law enforcement actions against political figures and protestors. He warns against viewing these acts as isolated incidents, emphasizing their role in a broader authoritarian agenda.
Tim Miller:
"We're past Hungary on the spectrum here. We're past Hungary, headed to Turkey..." [37:03]
Tim draws parallels between current U.S. events and authoritarian practices in countries like Hungary and Turkey, expressing fear that the U.S. may be slipping into a more oppressive regime.
Democratic Strategy and Response to Authoritarianism [43:48 – 57:38]
Ben Rhodes and Tim Miller explore strategies for the Democratic Party to combat rising authoritarianism, emphasizing the importance of addressing these issues head-on rather than sidelining them for other political gains.
Tim Miller:
"I fall on the, like, take this on and emphasize it... we have no shot." [44:57]
Tim advocates for Democrats to prioritize confronting authoritarian tendencies, such as aggressive ICE actions, rather than focusing solely on economic or social policies. He argues that standing against principles like undue government power is crucial for maintaining democracy.
Ben Rhodes:
"We're going to keep some people up at night with some night sweats." [42:15]
Rhodes agrees, suggesting that highlighting these authoritarian actions can galvanize the base and attract those uneasy with the current trajectory, even if it may initially seem like a political loss.
Authoritarianism’s Global Impact and Democratic Resilience [53:04 – 57:38]
Ben Rhodes introduces themes from his book, emphasizing how internal democratic failures can influence global authoritarian movements. The discussion highlights the importance of a strong, principled democracy in countering global threats.
Tim Miller:
"I truly believe that what we do at home is the most important thing that reverberates around the world..." [53:04]
Tim stresses that maintaining a robust and ethical domestic policy is essential for inspiring and supporting global democratic movements. He references activists like Alexei Navalny and Hong Kong protesters, who look to Western democracies for models of resistance against authoritarianism.
Ben Rhodes:
"Resistance and opposition for the sake of. It is good because that is needed to stop it." [57:16]
Rhodes underscores the necessity of resistance movements in halting the spread of authoritarianism, aligning with Tim’s views on the importance of democratic integrity both domestically and internationally.
Closing Remarks and Quiz Segment [58:04 – End]
The podcast concludes with a light-hearted quiz segment where Tim and Ben test each other’s knowledge of global leaders, adding a humorous end to the intense discussion.
Ben Rhodes:
"The leader of Pakistan." [58:09]
Tim Miller:
"Imran Khan is in jail... Actually, the leadership of Pakistan is the Chief of Staff of the army." [58:22]
Despite initial stumbles, Tim manages to answer subsequent questions correctly, showcasing camaraderie and wit between the hosts.
Notable Quotes
-
Tim Miller:
"We cannot bomb a nuclear program out of existence... It’s not good to normalize that." [07:13] -
Ben Rhodes:
"This is the scariest stuff that's happening... political violence becoming normal again." [48:37] -
Tim Miller:
"The Democrats are stuck in this permanent 2002 midterm election... They think the alternative is war." [29:04] -
Ben Rhodes:
"We have to stop seeing these things as temporary and start being like, huh? Like, what if the National Guard doesn't go home?" [42:15]
Conclusion
The episode provides a comprehensive analysis of the intertwining crises of international diplomacy, particularly U.S.-Israel-Iran relations, and escalating domestic authoritarian practices. Ben Rhodes and Tim Miller collaboratively argue for a proactive Democratic strategy to counteract both internal and external threats to liberal democracy. Through their insightful dialogue, they emphasize the importance of maintaining democratic principles to inspire global resistance against authoritarianism, while also addressing the immediate need to confront and dismantle emerging authoritarian trends within the United States.