The Bulwark Podcast

Episode: Ben Wittes: A Defiant Ukraine

Date: February 11, 2026
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Benjamin Wittes (Editor in Chief of Lawfare, Senior Fellow at Brookings, Author of Dog Shirt Daily)

Episode Overview

This episode features a detailed on-the-ground report from Ukraine by Benjamin Wittes, who has just returned from Kyiv, Kharkiv, and Odessa. He and Tim Miller discuss the humanitarian toll of Russia’s ongoing energy war, the resilience and defiance of Ukrainians, the perception of U.S. and European support, and implications for the war’s geopolitical future. The conversation then pivots to U.S. legal and political news, including the crumbling state of government law enforcement and reflections on the state of the Washington Post. Throughout, the tone is clear-eyed, spirited, at times bleak, but ultimately focused on the struggle for liberal democracy.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Humanitarian Crisis: Ukraine’s Winter Energy Catastrophe

[02:49–11:36]

• Severity of Crisis Underreported

  • Wittes describes the situation as much worse than depicted in the American press, emphasizing widespread loss of heat, electricity, and water.
    • "The average building in major cities may have neither heat nor electricity nor running water because a lot of heating in Ukraine is piped in from centralized facilities...The Russians have been hitting electrical plants, hitting heating plants. It’s so cold that if you don’t have heating and electricity, the pipes freeze very quickly." — Benjamin Wittes [02:49]
  • The crisis is impacting entire cities, with significant variance:
    • Kharkiv, though closer to the front, is faring slightly better than Kyiv due to a more distributed power system.
    • Many people live in "subsistence conditions," using tents on beds for insulation.
  • Deaths have occurred, especially among the vulnerable.
    • "There was an old lady who was actually a survivor of Babi Yar...who died in her apartment the other day. In the cold. It’s bad." — Wittes [09:13]

• Personal Relief Efforts

  • Wittes and Ukrainian host Nastya have personally raised $80,000 to buy large batteries and supplies to help keep individuals warm.
    • "We have now raised $80,000 and spent as much of it as we can get into the country on just buying individuals stuff...It really is down to a person to person kind of thing." — Wittes [10:55]
  • Direct aid is urgent, but the scale of the state-inflicted crisis is daunting.

• Intentionally Inflicted Suffering

  • The energy crisis is described as an act of state violence by Russia.
    • "It’s maddening partly because it’s intentionally inflicted." — Wittes [10:01]

2. Resilience and Defiance: Life on the Frontlines

[13:20–21:12]

• Kharkiv: Defiant Under Fire

  • Despite regular bombardments and severe damage, life and routines continue.
    • "People go to work, people get up in the morning and have days and there are very few buildings that are not scarred...But the city does continue to exist and function and in a way that’s kind of breathtaking." — Wittes [13:20]
  • Vivid anecdote: A Kharkiv military officer told Wittes,
    • "We’re not leaving. We didn’t leave when the Russians were in the city. We didn’t leave when they’ve bombarded the city for four years, and we’re not leaving now. I think that’s kind of the vibe that you get. It’s this very fist-in-the-air. We are here. We’re not going anywhere. Fuck you." — Wittes [15:32]

• Social Fabric: Community Amid Ruins

  • Kharkiv’s “chi chi” cafes operate right next to bombed out buildings; daily life persists amid destruction.
    • "You can be inside [a café] and really have no sense that you’re not in Paris or Stockholm...but you look out the window and there is a bombed out building on the other side of the street. [My host] said, 'That view is why I wanted you to meet me here.'" — Wittes [20:10]

• National Mood: “We’re Not on the Verge of Collapse”

  • Despite bleak conditions and U.S. political rhetoric, Ukrainians are not close to surrender or collapse.
    • "Despite what Trump is saying every few weeks, the Ukrainians are not about to collapse...they’re in a situation in which their resources are stretched extremely thin, but the other side’s resources are also stretched extremely thin." — Wittes [05:22]

3. Negotiation, Territory, and Humanity

[16:20–19:15]

• War Goals vs. Reality

  • When asked about willingness to negotiate, Ukrainians maintain maximal objectives (full territorial restoration, return of kidnapped children, reparations) but also recognize real limits.
    • "If you say, what is a just and fair and reasonable outcome, they say, 'get the fuck out of our territory...' But if you say, is a ceasefire going to include withdrawal of Russian forces from currently occupied territory? They’ll say, 'of course not.'" — Wittes [17:06]
  • For many, concern for occupied compatriots supersedes regaining territory.
    • "Americans talk about territory as though it’s land. For us it’s the people living under that occupation that is the real concern...I think most people will tell you they’re more immediately concerned about people." — Wittes [18:20]

• Unbreakable Ties to Home

  • "They don’t want to be driven out of their homes... there's a lot of obstinacy that people come by well and legitimately." — Wittes [19:19]

4. The West and Ukraine: Betrayal, Dependence, and Realpolitik

[21:12–34:49]

• Ukrainian Views on American Support

  • Feelings are complex: a mix of admiration for U.S. ideals, reliance, and sharp sense of betrayal.
    • "There’s a historic sentimental attachment to us...And partly for that reason, there’s a real sense of betrayal." — Wittes [21:15]
  • For Americans, witnessing Ukrainian suffering creates a sense of “embarrassment” for how the U.S. has prioritized its own “imaginary” political grievances.
    • "There’s something embarrassing about being there...we made up problems to hate each other about and then we tore our society apart over them...and they’re being bombed by the Russians." — Wittes [24:01]

• The “Unbombed”

  • Ukrainians refer to privileged outsiders as "the unbombed", a label Wittes says fits Americans and helps underscore the disconnect between real crises and U.S. political dysfunction.

• Geopolitics: The Putin “Victory” Scenario

  • Discussion of a scenario where Putin consolidates current gains, forcibly russifies occupied territory, and continues regional provocations—a slow-motion “victory.”
    • Wittes: "The ambition that you describe is exactly what he’s trying to do...creating these little fake state things in a variety of different locations, of which the Ukrainian territories are just one, that’s clearly what he’s trying to do." [26:13]
  • Ukraine and Europe both wary of relying on the U.S., knowing American support now swings violently by administration.
    • "For the foreseeable future [Europe] will not be able to restore the closeness of the relationship because we change course every four years." — Wittes [30:43]

• Ukrainian Diplomatic Agility

  • Praises Ukraine’s ability to “whittle away” at difficult U.S. relationships, extracting necessary support without humiliating appeasement.
    • "They’ve been very, very effective at managing this relationship. And that’s not because...that’s a credit to their diplomacy under enormous pressure." — Wittes [33:38]

5. U.S. Law and Political Dysfunction

[36:27–43:44]

• Fulton County Affidavit Flaws

  • Wittes reacts to the release of an affidavit supporting the raid of the Fulton County election office, describing it as "a list of conspiracy theories that have been mostly debunked."
    • "The question of how an FBI agent actually filed that document like that one’s a mystery to me." — Wittes [37:16]
  • Raises concern about the failure of courts and law enforcement to check such moves.

• Staffing Crisis in Federal Law Enforcement

  • Acute shortages and institutional decay in key government offices undermine rule of law:
    • Example: 75% of U.S. attorney’s office in Minnesota quit; only one lawyer left in Chicago CFTC office.
    • "Their lack of horses to carry out their lawfare seems to be a big problem for them at this point." — Miller [41:46]
    • Wittes: "It is shocking to watch it...I’ve never seen a situation in which you wonder if the lawyer who wrote the average brief has any idea what the factual record looks like." [43:02]
  • Government disorganization tempers "malevolence", but leaves real cases—like sexual abuse and trafficking—unaddressed, resources diverted to “less important” priorities.
    • "The non availability of people because resources are being sucked up by deranged priorities is more norm than exception at this point." — Wittes [48:39]

• Challenges in Immigration Law

  • Circuit court splits are teeing up major Supreme Court decisions on issues like indefinite detention, tariffs, and birthright citizenship. Wittes warns broad Congressional statutes give administrations leeway to enact sweeping policies.
    • "My working assumption is that with most of the immigration law stuff...the administration is going to win a lot of this stuff. And the reason is that Congress has written these laws very expansively...they’re not very well written." — Wittes [49:52]

6. Washington Post and the Fate of Institutions

[51:47–55:31]

• Bezos Ownership and Institutional Decline
  • Wittes reflects on the rapid decay of the Washington Post, tying it to poor leadership and broader threats to journalism.
    • "It is in a death spiral now, and it is heading to one or either death by death or death by becoming...a skeleton of itself. And it’s very sad to watch. I grew up there professionally, and I have a great deal of attachment to the place..." — Wittes [51:56]
  • Notes the irony: as Lawfare expands global reporting, legacy media is retreating.
    • "I was in the weird position of suddenly realizing that Lawfare now has more employees in Ukraine than the Washington Post..." — Wittes [51:49]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Ukrainian Defiance:
  "We’re not leaving. We didn’t leave when the Russians were in the city. We didn’t leave when they’ve bombarded the city for four years, and we’re not leaving now. I think that’s kind of the vibe that you get. It’s this very fist-in-the-air. We are here. We’re not going anywhere. Fuck you." — Benjamin Wittes [15:32]

• On the Energy Crisis:
  "It’s maddening partly because it’s intentionally inflicted...there’s something very evil about it. There’s something very upsetting about it. One of my hosts, Nastya...their pipes froze and they had to move out of their apartment into a hotel for a few days because not only did they not have power and heat, they didn’t have running water anymore either. It’s bad." — Wittes [10:01]

• On American “Decadence”:
  "There’s something embarrassing about being there...we made up problems to hate each other about and then we tore our society apart over them...and they’re being bombed by the Russians." — Wittes [24:01]

• On Media & Institutions:
  "These institutions that seem very permanent are permanent until they’re not." — Wittes [55:20]

• On Law Enforcement Dysfunction:
  "I’ve watched this department for 30 years now, and I’ve never seen it be incompetent before...I’ve never seen a situation in which you wonder if the lawyer who wrote the average brief has any idea what the factual record looks like." — Wittes [43:02]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Ukraine Energy Crisis and Relief Efforts: 02:49–11:36
• Kharkiv and Living on the Frontlines: 13:20–21:12
• Ukrainian Perspective on Negotiation and Occupation: 16:20–19:15
• Ukrainian-American Relations, “The Unbombed”: 21:12–24:50
• Putin’s Geopolitical Objectives: 26:13–28:12
• European Realignment and U.S. Trustworthiness: 30:43–34:49
• Fulton County Affidavit & Lawfare Dysfunction: 36:27–43:44
• Law Enforcement and Legal Staff Shortages: 41:46–48:54
• Immigration Law and Supreme Court Prognosis: 49:15–51:29
• Washington Post Meltdown and Institutional Permanence: 51:47–55:31

Closing Thoughts

Wittes paints a vivid, harrowing, yet inspiring portrait of Ukraine’s struggle and spirit, lamenting both the U.S. and Europe’s inability to provide consistent support. The episode is a call to attention: for the humanitarian toll of war, the dangers of American political dysfunction, and the fragility of institutions. Throughout is a palpable respect for the stoicism and perseverance of ordinary Ukrainians in the face of targeted, calculated suffering—and an implicit challenge to listeners to be worthy allies.