The Bulwark Podcast: Episode Summary Featuring Ben Wittes

Episode Title: Ben Wittes: Americans Elected a Serial Criminal to Be President
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Ben Wittes, Editor in Chief of Lawfare, Senior Fellow in Governance Studies at the Brookings Institution, and writer of Dog Shirt Daily on Substack.

1. Introduction to the Trump Trials

In this episode, host Tim Miller welcomes Ben Wittes to discuss the culmination of the Trump trials and their broader implications. Wittes provides an overview of the current status of these legal proceedings, emphasizing the imminent end of the trials:

"The Trump trials have come to an end. There’s no reason to think that that is not the case. Right. That anything will continue in New York or anywhere else."
[05:18]

Wittes outlines the probable outcomes for the various cases, highlighting the federal cases related to classified documents and January 6th, which he believes will likely be dismissed either by Jack Smith or Trump's attorney general. He also touches on the Georgia case, noting its self-destructive trajectory but acknowledges that co-defendants may still face charges.

2. Critique of the Criminal Justice System

Wittes delves deep into the effectiveness of the criminal justice system in handling high-profile cases, particularly Trump's. He argues that the system has failed to fulfill its fundamental purposes:

"What good is a criminal justice system that can't do justice, protect democracy, or persuade voters?"
[10:02]

He elaborates that the Trump trials exemplify a significant failure, as the system neither punished wrongdoing effectively nor protected democratic institutions. Furthermore, the trials failed to influence public perception negatively towards Trump, as evidenced by increased voter support post-indictments.

"The Trump trials really stand for the proposition that at least as regards Donald Trump, we are a government of men, not laws."
[14:41]

3. Redeeming Aspects Amidst Failure

Despite the overarching failures, Wittes identifies three redeeming aspects of the Trump trials:

1. Creation of a Comprehensive Record:

   "There will be... no doubt that we elected a serial criminal to be president."
   [14:45]
   The extensive documentation during the trials serves as an undeniable historical record of Trump's actions.

2. Accountability Through Judicial Proceedings:

   "It is in its own form... to have to sit there and be powerless to stop this from happening and have people pronounce judgment on you is its own form of accountability."
   [15:35]

3. Ongoing Prosecution of Associates:

   "The underlings are not saved by this... some have already pledged and some will presumably continue to be prosecuted."
   [17:50]

4. Prospects for Future Legal Actions

Wittes discusses the likelihood of future legal actions against Trump, especially concerning potential pardons:

"I expect him to do that early and like I expect him to betray Ukraine early and perfectly happy to be pleasantly surprised if he A takes longer or does less of it or B doesn't do it at all."
[19:51]

He anticipates that Trump will exercise his pardon power, particularly concerning January 6th defendants, which Wittes views as a "cosmic democratic disaster."

5. Judicial Nominations and Lame Duck Period

The conversation shifts to the political maneuvers surrounding judicial nominations during the lame duck period. Tim Miller brings up the appointment of Eileen Cannon and discusses the Democrats' strategies to influence the judiciary:

"I assume that there will be as quick a push to do as much pending business as possible."
[26:58]

Wittes acknowledges Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer's effectiveness in confirming judges and expresses skepticism about efforts to unseat Supreme Court justices like Sonia Sotomayor.

6. Ukraine Support and Future Concerns

Wittes provides insights into the complex dynamics of U.S. support for Ukraine, highlighting internal disagreements among Ukrainians regarding American policies:

"Privately, there are Ukrainians who... dislike Biden because he's put all these restrictions on their use of weapons systems."
[28:16]

He underscores Trump's inconsistent stance on Ukraine, noting his calls for a "quick peace" under Russia's terms without clear commitment to ongoing support:

"The only hope in this area... is that some of his underlings quietly did the right thing in a bunch of areas related to Ukraine."
[29:21]

7. Democratic Concerns: Immigration and Justice Department

Wittes expresses acute fears regarding the Trump administration's potential actions on immigration and the Justice Department's weaponization:

"I am certain that there will be a substantial effort to deport very large numbers of people."
[34:41]

He fears mass deportations and the establishment of camps, coupled with the possible firing and replacement of key Justice Department officials, which could undermine federal institutions' integrity.

8. Personal Reflections and Coping Mechanisms

Addressing personal well-being amidst political turmoil, Wittes shares his strategies for coping:

"I do not listen to his voice. If I have to deal with a Trump statement or speech, I find a written version of it."
[38:05]

He emphasizes focusing on significant issues, like the rule of law and Ukraine, while avoiding unnecessary stressors such as engaging with hateful social media interactions.

9. The Importance of Civil Society

In a poignant discussion on maintaining democratic resilience, Wittes likens democracy to a rheostat:

"Democracy is not a light switch that you turn on or off. It's a rheostat, a dimmer."
[41:43]

Both host and guest reflect on the enduring nature of civil society, drawing parallels to global movements in Hungary and Hong Kong, and stressing the importance of grassroots engagement despite facing setbacks.

Conclusion

The episode offers a comprehensive analysis of the Trump trials' outcomes and their broader implications for American democracy and civil society. Ben Wittes underscores the failures of the criminal justice system in holding powerful individuals accountable, the risks posed by potential executive pardons, and the ongoing challenges in supporting Ukraine. His reflections provide both a critical perspective on current political dynamics and a call to action for maintaining and strengthening democratic institutions.

Note: Advertisements, intros, outros, and non-content sections have been omitted to focus on the substantive discussions between Tim Miller and Ben Wittes.