Ben Wittes and Michael Feinberg: Breakdown at the FBI

Summary

Detailed Summary of "Ben Wittes and Michael Feinberg: Breakdown at the FBI"

Podcast Information:

• Title: The Bulwark Podcast
• Host/Author: The Bulwark
• Episode: Ben Wittes and Michael Feinberg: Breakdown at the FBI
• Release Date: July 16, 2025
• Description: Tim Miller and guests discuss the latest political news for the flagship podcast of the Never Trump movement and the reality-based community. Every weekday, insightful analysis, political hot-takes, an unabashed defense of liberal democracy, and long-form interviews that cut through the "both-sides" BS are provided.

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Introduction

The episode opens with Tim Miller introducing a “Lawfare double header” featuring Ben Wittes and Michael Feinberg. Michael Feinberg, a former Assistant Special Agent in Charge of the Norfolk National Security and Intelligence Programs at the FBI, recently resigned after facing a potential demotion due to his friendship with Pete Strzok, a figure previously spotlighted in Donald Trump's Russia investigation narratives.

Michael Feinberg’s Resignation and Background

Tim Miller provides context on Feinberg’s resignation, highlighting his extensive career in the FBI, including his role as Unit Chief at the J. Edgar Hoover Building in Washington, D.C. The conversation quickly shifts to personal anecdotes, with Michael sharing his disappointment over the circumstances leading to his departure.

Notable Quote:

"I was explicitly told by my special agent in charge that my career was functionally over."
— Michael Feinberg [05:38]

Political Influence and the FBI

Michael Feinberg delves into the political dynamics within the FBI, specifically addressing how figures like Dan Bongino and Kash Patel are perceived to foster a “deep state conspiracy” mindset. He emphasizes that his friendship with Pete Strzok was purely based on shared interests, such as their mutual admiration for The Smiths, dispelling notions of any deeper conspiracy ties.

Notable Quote:

"Patel and Bongino really do believe that there is some sort of deep state conspiracy... which is just, quite frankly, not true."
— Michael Feinberg [06:06]

Shifts in FBI Priorities

The discussion shifts to the reallocation of the FBI’s resources under the current administration. Feinberg criticizes the redirection of skilled agents from national security and white-collar crime investigations to immigration enforcement and perimeter security tasks, roles traditionally outside the FBI’s core competencies.

Notable Quote:

"Instead of doing that, you now have massive amounts of agents standing around doing perimeter security, rounding up children and grandmas."
— Michael Feinberg [12:15]

DOJ and Institutional Capacity Drain

Ben Wittes joins the conversation, expanding the scope to include the Department of Justice (DOJ) and other federal agencies. He outlines a comprehensive “purge” targeting politically suspect individuals, coupled with general downsizing efforts that undermine the institutional capacities of these bodies.

Notable Quote:

"There is a purge going on, which is, you know, an active getting rid of a certain cadre that are politically suspect."
— Ben Wittes [37:32]

Internal Culture and Morale in the FBI

Feinberg provides insight into the deteriorating morale within the FBI workforce. Many agents feel disillusioned, believing their work no longer aligns with protecting national security but instead serves political agendas. He contrasts the sentiment among the general workforce with that of senior executives, some of whom are perceived as opportunistic.

Notable Quote:

"The workforce... is miserable. They joined the FBI out of a real desire to serve their country and protect it from serious threats. And a lot of them don't feel like they're doing that anymore."
— Michael Feinberg [16:12]

Discussion on Accountability Mechanisms

The conversation touches on the lack of accountability mechanisms within the FBI and DOJ. Feinberg expresses skepticism that current leadership understands the FBI's operational intricacies enough to misuse its powers effectively. However, he remains concerned about the long-term cultural erosion under Kash Patel’s leadership.

Notable Quote:

"I don't think Patel or Bongino understand enough about how the FBI works to fully leverage its abilities."
— Michael Feinberg [30:34]

Ben Wittes’ Insights on DOJ and Federal Agencies

Ben Wittes elaborates on the widespread impact of the administrative purge, noting that similar actions are occurring across various departments, including Education and State. He also highlights the devastating effects on the government’s grant-making capacities, particularly in scientific and biomedical research.

Notable Quote:

"The breadth is enormous... there's a large scale destruction of the government's grant making capacity."
— Ben Wittes [37:32]

Epstein Files and Conspiracy Theories

The discussion briefly veers into the Epstein investigation, addressing conspiracy theories surrounding missing video footage. Feinberg dismisses these theories, emphasizing the rigor and transparency of FBI investigations and cautioning against allowing conspiracy theorists to influence law enforcement narratives.

Notable Quote:

"This is a prime example of why you don't want conspiracy theorists running a really important law enforcement and intelligence gathering operation."
— Michael Feinberg [26:35]

Ukraine Policy Discussion

Towards the end of the episode, the focus shifts to recent policy changes regarding Ukraine. Ben Wittes acknowledges Donald Trump's limited but significant shift in policy, allowing Ukraine access to offensive weapons, which he views as a necessary step despite initial delays and hesitations. However, he criticizes the transactional nature of the policy, emphasizing the need for sustained financial support from the U.S. and its allies.

Notable Quote:

"Ukraine desperately needs those new, more air defenses. It has been asking for long range missile capability for a long time. If it gets both, that is a big deal."
— Ben Wittes [61:05]

Conclusion

The episode wraps up with reflections on the current state of federal law enforcement agencies, the erosion of institutional integrity, and the broader implications for American democracy. Tim Miller and Ben Wittes encourage listeners to engage with Lawfare Media and stay informed about ongoing governmental changes.

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Notable Quotes Highlighted:

1. Michael Feinberg [05:38]: "I was explicitly told by my special agent in charge that my career was functionally over."
2. Michael Feinberg [06:06]: "Patel and Bongino really do believe that there is some sort of deep state conspiracy... which is just, quite frankly, not true."
3. Michael Feinberg [12:15]: "Instead of doing that, you now have massive amounts of agents standing around doing perimeter security, rounding up children and grandmas."
4. Ben Wittes [37:32]: "There is a purge going on, which is, you know, an active getting rid of a certain cadre that are politically suspect."
5. Michael Feinberg [16:12]: "The workforce... is miserable. They joined the FBI out of a real desire to serve their country and protect it from serious threats. And a lot of them don't feel like they're doing that anymore."
6. Michael Feinberg [30:34]: "I don't think Patel or Bongino understand enough about how the FBI works to fully leverage its abilities."
7. Ben Wittes [37:32]: "The breadth is enormous... there's a large scale destruction of the government's grant making capacity."
8. Michael Feinberg [26:35]: "This is a prime example of why you don't want conspiracy theorists running a really important law enforcement and intelligence gathering operation."
9. Ben Wittes [61:05]: "Ukraine desperately needs those new, more air defenses. It has been asking for long range missile capability for a long time. If it gets both, that is a big deal."

This episode provides a critical examination of the internal challenges facing the FBI and DOJ, highlighting the impact of political interference on national security operations and institutional integrity. The candid insights from Michael Feinberg and Ben Wittes paint a concerning picture of declining morale, loss of expertise, and shifting priorities within key federal agencies.

Transcript

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[Tim Miller]

Hello, and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We've got a Lawfare double header of sorts in segment two. Our friend Ben Whittis is back. But first, he was recently a top deputy in the FBI's Norfolk office. He resigned after being told he'd be demoted for being friends with someone on the Cash Patel enemies list. His title had been Assistant Special Agent in Charge of the Norfolk National Security and Intelligence Programs. He'd previously worked at other roles.

[Ben Wittes]

Such as.

[Tim Miller]

Such as the unit Chief at the J. Edgar Hoover Building in D.C. it's Michael Feinberg. How you doing, man?

[Michael Feinberg]

I'm doing well. Yourself?

[Tim Miller]

Well, I'm still employed, so I'm doing better than you, I guess. Seems like.

[Michael Feinberg]

Yeah, yeah. And I saw from one of your earlier podcasts that you actually got to go see Oasis kick off their reunion tour.

[Tim Miller]

I saw Oasis's first homecoming show in Manchester in Heaton Park. It was. It was fucking brilliant. It was brilliant.

[Michael Feinberg]

Yeah. I feel bad I've been making fun of Oasis on Blue sky lately, but that's a mistake. That has more to do with the personalities of Liam and Noel. I've actually seen. I saw them a few times in their original.

[Tim Miller]

They sound as good as ever, man. I don't know. Liam's been. I think may. I don't know if Liam stopped smoking or what's going on, but they sound great. Highly recommend. And you've got free time, so they're playing all over the world.

[Michael Feinberg]

Well, we're having a kid in about two and a half years, so unfortunately, free time is not really on the agenda for me.

[Tim Miller]

Congrats. Well, my advice to new parents, nobody tells you this, like, three months to nine months is actually a great time. To world travel with a child. No one tells you this because after. Because you know, they, you know, unless you have a cranky child. But most of them at that age just shut up. If you just give them a bottle or change the diaper once you get to about a year, you know, they've got minds of their own.

[Michael Feinberg]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

So anyway, so maybe contemplate that we have at least something in common. Robert Burns, you wrote an article for the Law Fair that said goodby to all that about leaving the Bureau. And like one of these insane only in Trump 2.0 stories, you're forced to leave, I guess, because you went to a concert with Pete Strzok, who people might remember from the lovers texts that Trump liked to mention on the campaign trail from the first Russia investigation. So I guess that. I guess you were spotted with Pete and that led to a series of events which brings you here. Why don't you just kind of walk us through what happened?

[Michael Feinberg]

Yeah, so I don't actually quite know how this was brought to the estimable Dan Bongino's attention, but he did handle it with his usual temperance and maturity. So, you know, I was at the office on a Saturday and I get a call from my special agent in charge who tells me that it has come to the attention of the Deputy Director, as she called him.

[Tim Miller]

Deputy Dan, we call him around here.

[Michael Feinberg]

Yeah, yeah, it's. It's come to his attention that I have remained friends and remained in contact with Pete Strzok since he left the Bureau. And there's nothing false in that. It's absolutely true. You know, he and his wife were a guest at my wedding. We hang out quite a bit. We talk all the time, as I said in the piece, largely about the food scene in various cities and mostly about different bands. Our friendship kicked off when we discovered we were both huge Smiths fans. It's not exactly the stuff of a deep state conspiracy, more just us showing our.

[Tim Miller]

I don't know, Morrissey has been getting pretty kooky these days.

[Michael Feinberg]

So, yeah, he's problematic, let's put it that way. But yeah, so I admitted to being friends with Pete and there were a series of more phone calls about it and bit basically by the end of the day, once I had sort of regained my self composure because it was very clear to me that my career was. My life really was about to change drastically as a result of having a target on my back for Bongino and Patel. I was explicitly told by my special agent in charge that my career was functionally over. I was not going to get a promotion for which I was in. I needed to prepare for the fact that I would in all likelihood be demoted. And I also needed to reconcile myself to the fact that I would be called up to D.C. in order to submit to a polygraph about the nature of my friendship with Pete, whatever that means.

[Tim Miller]

They explicitly said that to you? You're gonna have to go take a polygraph test like you're in, meet the parents to talk about whether you and Pete were. What, I don't know, like, what would even have been the accusation?

[Michael Feinberg]

As near as I can tell, Patel and Bongino really do believe that there is some sort of deep state conspiracy, like something out of a Chesterton novel, that is.

[Tim Miller]

I don't think either of them have read any Chesterton.

[Michael Feinberg]

I'm actually making a point to drop in as many cultural references they would not understand in every interview I do as possible. But yeah, I think they really do believe that there is some sort of organized deep state resistance to the Trump agenda, which is just, quite frankly, not true. And the mere fact that Pete and I get along and our friends was enough that they needed to, I don't want to be melodramatic and say, ruin my life, but, you know, they needed to take away my primary source of income when my wife was seven months into a high risk pregnancy, make us go through COBRA for insurance, remove the mission and dedication to our country for which I've always been proud of. It's weird, I wish I had a better word for it than that, but.

[Tim Miller]

Lunacy would be maybe one way to start, lay the predicate for people a little bit. What kind of work were you doing?

[Michael Feinberg]

Yeah, so I was most recently at the Norfolk field office where I was the assistant special agent in charge over the entire national security portfolio. And for a good part of that time, including the first three or four months of the transition, I was actually the acting special agent in charge because the former had been promoted. So it was natural for me to step into the role. But Prior to those 18 months, I've dedicated my entire career to combating the Chinese Communist Party and its efforts to undermine the national security of the United States. I oversaw a number of very public indictments which had a material effect, I think, making us safer. And I worked on a lot of stuff that's still classified that I can't get into, but that all ended in a similar place.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, you would think that China hawks had it. Like yesterday. There was the testimony from Mike Waltz who got downgraded to UN Ambassador after the signal gate situation. I know he spent his whole career being a China hawk. There are a number of China hawks administration. You would think that there would be like a counter balance of people who are not. Who are less concerned about your. Your friendships and more concerned about institutional knowledge against the Chinese. No, nobody actually cares about that.

[Michael Feinberg]

No, there is. There is a complete willingness to jettison any sort of subject matter expertise from the FBI if the individuals who possess it are political undesirables, friends with political undesirables, or just had the timing misfortune of having been promoted by Chris Ray.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, so you mean like there. There are people that just got kind of got caught up in bad timing, bad luck?

[Michael Feinberg]

Yeah, I mean, if you. If, you know, within the Bureau, we use the phrase seventh floor is a sort of metonym for all FBI leadership.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Michael Feinberg]

And within the first week of the administration, like, everybody on the seventh floor was given their walking papers. I mean, you know, this is reported in the Times and the Post and the Journal. It's no secret. Like, they just eviscerated the top line of leadership that had all the real institutional knowledge, not just about the threats, but about how best to use the levers of power that the Bureau has.

[Tim Miller]

So, like what? I mean, I guess you were in there as recently as, what, six weeks ago or something. Like what. What is happening now? Like, what are they? What are the remaining people working on? How's the morale like?

[Michael Feinberg]

What's the immigration and violent crime? Largely, there's a willingness by Patel and Bongino to have the Bureau function essentially as just an augmentation effort for hsi.

[Tim Miller]

For people who don't know, it's hsi.

[Michael Feinberg]

Sorry, Homeland Security Investigations, which is a subset of ice, which is Immigration and Customs Enforcement, and the FBI is also going on enforcement removal operations. It's weird. You know, traditionally a cabinet secretary or somebody like the FBI director who is immediately below a cabinet secretary, would try and hold joint loyalty to his or her president, but also the department that he or she ran. And that second concern is just nowhere in the minds of Bongino and Patel. So they're doing nothing to protect the jurisdiction and mission of the FBI. They're just using us to advance the President's primary political cause, which is the constriction of immigration into the United States. So, you know, when I was in Norfolk, national security squads, white collar squads, squads that handled public corruption, they were eviscerated to move agents and analytics support from their previous threats to immigration operations and To a lesser extent, South American gang operations.

[Tim Miller]

What does that work actually look like, if I'm not mistaken? Like the FBI doesn't really have a history of doing immigration enforcement work. So what are the agents being told? What does that actually mean? They're turning their focused immigration work.

[Michael Feinberg]

Yeah. So you're very right about the history and subject matter expertise. The FBI has actually had Title 8 authorities which would allow them to do immigration enforcement since 2001 when their powers were sort of put on steroids. As a result, in the 911 attacks, they never did it because it made no sense. Like the FBI is very good at complex investigations of highly coordinated organizations using very complicated statutes like RICO or fisa. Instead of doing that, you now have massive amounts of agents standing around doing perimeter security, rounding up children and grandmas.

[Tim Miller]

Well, that's something Dan by Gino can understand. I mean that's, you know, the RICOH cases are complicated. You know, just being a security, a mall security officer is something that's like in his. In his wheelhouse.

[Michael Feinberg]

Yeah. Perimeter security is something an agent with like six weeks in the office would normally do on an arrest. And now you have agents with decades of experience and real subject matter expert spending a good portion of their day doing it.

[Tim Miller]

So what are the practical effects of that? I know are people. I don't want you to get into trouble or anything. Are folks still doing the other work and just trying to do it themselves? Are there major things that are lost and if you were to be worried about something, what would you. What did you think?

[Michael Feinberg]

There are a couple of areas about which I'm very worried. On the criminal realm, main justice. The Assistant Attorney General for the Criminal division has been very upfront that like white collar crime is no longer a priority. He has said, I think in public statements that it harms American businesses to enforce laws on the books. So that's out the window. As has been widely reported, DOJ's Public Integrity Section pin has also been eviscerated by firings and resignations. And I'm focusing on DOJ rather than FBI resources because a lot of people don't realize like the FBI can't bring criminal cases on its own. As much as we hate to admit it, we need the help of federal prosecutors. And if the federal prosecutors are no longer working those violations, the investigators are just running on a hamster wheel like they're not getting anywhere. So that area of criminal enforcement is gone. They're not going to do a lot of right wing domestic terrorism work. In fact, they pardoned thousands of people for their role in January 6th. So that's not getting worked. And I saw no real concern on the part of FBI senior management, particularly when I was working as acting sac, to really do anything on the counterintelligence and international terrorism fronts either.

[Tim Miller]

You know it's heading over the ocean. You start to think to yourself you want to make sure you have your affairs in order. Don't want to get too macabre. I'm not a scared flyer. I love, you know, now that Sean Duffy's in charge, maybe, but still, there's something about flying over the ocean that makes you want to make sure you have your affairs in order. You have a carefree summer and that's why I'm excited. Already turned to our sponsor, Trust and Will. Trust and Will can help ensure that your loved ones are covered when it comes to things like medical decisions and power of attorney. You go to trustandwill.com bulwarks to get 20% off their simple, secure and expert backed estate planning services. Their website is easy to use and simple to navigate. Plus all your information and documents are securely stored with bank level encryption. Each Will or trust is state specific, legally valid and customized to your needs. We can't control everything, but trust and Will can help you take control of protecting your family's Future. Go to trustandwill.com bulwark for 20% off. That's 20% [e-mail] bulwark so the folks that are still there, what is morale like? And I maybe morale is good because the people that are there are folks that are excited to meet Kash Patel. I don't know. I don't know. Right. And they're fans. I don't know. Or maybe there are a bunch of people there who are just trying to keep their head down. Like what's the FBI? You know, what's like inside the building? Do you think now?

[Michael Feinberg]

So I'm happy to answer that, but I got to give two caveats to sort of qualify my answer.

[Tim Miller]

Sure.

[Michael Feinberg]

Versus I still talk to a real lot of people in the FBI. I mean it's where I spent the better part of two decades. But the people with whom I speak and the complete strangers who've reached out to me on, you know, various platforms.

[Tim Miller]

Self selecting.

[Michael Feinberg]

Yeah, exactly. Like these are people who, the people who hated what I had to say in Lawfare are not going to be reaching out to me to express their Ireland at the seventh floor. That's caveat number one. Caveat number two is I think we really need to differentiate between the workforce and the newly appointed senior executives. The workforce, from everything I am hearing both directly and secondhand, is miserable. They joined the FBI out of a real desire to serve their country and protect it from serious threats. And a lot of them don't feel like they're doing that anymore. The senior executives are more problematic because there are some who think by staying on and accepting promotions, they're acting in the best interests of the FBI. I disagree with that analysis, which we could get into or gloss over. But there's also a lot of senior executives who see opportunity and they are purposefully promoting people who are not eligible for pensions yet. So they're over a financial barrel and they can't push back against the administration. And I think people who are willing to put themselves in that situation are of a different type than the workforce who really just wants to do their work.

[Tim Miller]

Let us get into it, because I was going to ask you, was there a part of you, right, like you weren't fired, right. Like you were threatened with demotion? Yeah, you're threatened with demotion and obviously your humiliation of having to, whatever, take a polygraph test and talk about what concerts you went to with Pete Struck. So was there a part of you that was like, f these guys, I'm going to stay, make steroid Dan Bungino fly down to Norfolk and fire me, you know, to my face, and, you know, maybe I should stay in here and do the work?

[Michael Feinberg]

Yeah, So I did think of that. There were two reasons I did not pursue that path. The first is it wouldn't have been an option. I know a number of people who were targeted the same way I was. Maybe not for the exact same reason, but there was something in their life outside of the Bureau that rubbed the current rulers in the wrong way. And when they say demoted, they're being really clever about it. They're not actually giving them a diminution in pay or a change in GS levels. They're removing them from leadership positions and putting them in empty offices where they have nothing to do. So even if I stayed and accepted what was coming my way, I wasn't going to be working on investigations or operations to protect our country. I was going to be sitting in an empty office, not getting any phone calls or emails. Number two is I could have fought this. I talked to a lot of immigration lawyers in a very condensed time period to figure out whether I had a case, and everybody agreed that I did. And I would.

[Tim Miller]

Sorry, why immigration lawyers?

[Michael Feinberg]

Sorry, employment lawyers.

[Tim Miller]

When I. Yeah, I was like, all right, were you thinking about fleeing? Was that, Was that just a.

[Michael Feinberg]

All options are on the table. Sorry. Employment lawyers and fighting. That would have taken years. It would have made me miserable. It would have made me a very frustrated, bitter, angry person. That's not who my wife needs during the third trimester of pregnancy. And it is absolutely not who my son is going to need during the first few years of his life. So I made, not to sound maudlin or over wrenching, but a really heartbreaking decision that I had to leave.

[Tim Miller]

And you mentioned this just kind of to put a finer point on it, obviously there's been reporting in the Times about other senior leadership and stuff that I left. But you're just kind of the one that's talking about this the most publicly, right? I mean, the number of people that have been run out, I think exceed what is in the public domain and what people realize. Is that fair to say?

[Michael Feinberg]

Yeah, I mean, because you have a lot of things happening. You have the departure of senior executives who are being forced out. You have people like me who are choosing to resign as a means of escaping untenable situations. But you also have a really large number of people who are eligible for retirement but are still leaving much sooner than they planned. You know, most agents, because of the weirdness of the Federal Employee Retirement System, you're usually eligible to retire around age 50 and you're mandatory at age 57. You have a real lot of people who are planning to stay till 57 who are now punching out the day they turn 50.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I do wonder about that. Like I was like, if you're a 50 year old G man who's been, you know, has just decades of experience behind you, serious, not political. Right. Any meaningful way. And you go into a meeting one day and it's podcaster Dan Bongino telling you that you have to, whatever, start doing perimeter security around a park ice raid. And you've got to have talked to some people who've been in maybe not that dramatic of a situation, but like that, like type of situation. Like what. How do, how do people even process this? Like what. What is the leadership? Is there any competent person that they have, you know, given power to, in order to guard against that, or these guys literally reporting to Dan Bongino.

[Michael Feinberg]

So it is rarely the case under normal times that a line agent would ever come into contact with the deputy director. That's changed a little bit under this administration. But yeah, there's a lot of links in the chain of command between those two who relay these orders to them. The problem is if you get high enough in that chain, you're going to be dealing with somebody who is appointed by these people and by definition is willing to work with them and probably not in a position to push back. So you have that as one part of the dynamic. The other part is like they are executive branch officers. Like, if the White House, if DOJ wants to prioritize immigration, that's entirely within the bounds of legality and propriety. That doesn't mean it's smart. That doesn't mean that they're having the hard discussions about the second and third order consequences of ignoring other violations or the opportunity costs of having agents spend eight hours a day on perimeter security. So most of the line agents I know are just keeping their heads down and doing what they can within the bounds of law and their oath to the Constitution, but hating their lives on a daily basis and feeling like they're not contributing to an important mission.

[Tim Miller]

So you don't have any funny stories for me of Dan Bongino giving orders in crayon or anything to senior bureau officials?

[Michael Feinberg]

I mean, none that you don't know. I mean, Dan Bongino has spent the past week wrapped up in a conspiracy theory involving a child molesting financier who was actually arrested and killed himself during the first Trump administration. But somehow this has become a deep state conspiracy now involving Comey, Obama and Biden. Like, we're through the looking glass. This is Alice in Wonderland.

[Tim Miller]

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[Michael Feinberg]

Yeah. So look, anything is possible in the world. So I could turn out to be totally wrong. And I just want to admit that up front. But investigations don't have, like, secret vaults in cabinets where we put certain evidence and other evidence goes different places, and only some people know about the findings. Where other findings are so highly sensitive that only senior executives, like, first off, there was something really damaging on a case this size. It probably would have leaked at this point. Just being realistic. Not from the FBI, but probably from Main Justice. Secondly, like, this is. This is a prime example of why you don't want conspiracy theorists running a really important law enforcement and intelligence gathering operation. Like the only thing that should be guiding what they are putting out or what they are saying is like what did the witness and victim interviews say? What are the financial documents we've looked at say? What are the travel logs?

[Tim Miller]

I mean there's some private financial documents. Like that's the kind of stuff that might be in there that I think is a more realistic quote unquote conspiracy. There is like Trump's friends, donors, Les Wexner or whatever is in there, you know, from get paying a lot of money. And FBI looked into it and they're like, I don't know, can we invest? Can we actually indict this guy over this? It looks bad, but you know, maybe that's the kind of thing that would be.

[Michael Feinberg]

Yeah, but, but like the number 7 FOIA exception which would normally restrict the release of that sort of information, you know, it's limited to things that, that would a tip off the subject that he or she is being looked at.

[Tim Miller]

Subject's dead.

[Michael Feinberg]

Epstein's dead. Yeah. You know, and the other requirement is it's going to affect an ongoing enforcement action. And once again, Epstein's dead. It's possible they're looking at other co conspirators. I mean we know they are at least one or they're thinking of opening other cases on individuals. But like they can say that without identifying the individual. There's just a lot of smoke right now. And I've been in the government long enough to know that when people of what I will politely call the intellectual makeup of Dan Bongino see a conspiracy, there's probably not a lot of fire behind that smoke.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, so that three minute, the three minute video from the prison doesn't have you, doesn't have your G man, the Spidey sense of speed.

[Michael Feinberg]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Three minutes of missing tape, it's enough time to get in there and get somebody.

[Michael Feinberg]

I mean, look, the advice I was given when I joined the bureau very early on and that I passed on to probably every single person I ever supervised, Never assume malevolence where incompetence will suffice.

[Tim Miller]

This is where I go to my normal why I'm against most Trump conspiracy theories. It's like Trump can't keep a fucking secret. We know everything about this asshole anyway. All right, here's my last FBI expertise question for you. When the administration was first starting and all these hires were being made, right. The cash one was particularly of concern to me for a specific reason. Right. Which is the FBI does have a lot of powers. The FBI can create a lot of problems for people they're investigating before you get to a grand jury. Right. Like there's investigation, hassling. And I don't. Maybe these guys are just too incompetent to do that. And obviously Comey's been hassled a little bit. There have been examples. But like what, what do you think about that? Like as far as, as concerns about potential, you know, retribution, maybe, I don't know, maybe targeting you or others, you know, with the kind of powers that the FBI has. What, what, what might somebody be concerned about or not concerned about in that realm?

[Michael Feinberg]

This is actually one of the few things I take some comfort in.

[Tim Miller]

Great.

[Michael Feinberg]

First of all, I don't think Patel or Bongino understand enough about how the FBI works to fully leverage its abilities. Secondly, a senior appointed political official within the FBI, of which unfortunately there are now more than there ever has been, they can't run an investigation. You know, like they need a GS10 through 13 level case agent to actually go out and do stuff. And I have immense faith in the overwhelming majority of that workforce that they take their oath to the constitution very seriously. My worry is that over the three and a half to seven and a half years that Cash. I'm not going to math, however long Cash Patel is director because it's a 10 year term, you know, he's going to have the ability to really influence the internal culture of the bureau in terms of how we train new agents and play a role in terms of what sort of people we hire. So while right now there is a very strong rule of law culture within the FBI, I do have concerns that that culture may be weakened as we promote people who are willing to work for these clowns and also as we hire people who are not alarmed by what they see going on.

[Tim Miller]

So you're telling me you don't think there's a master plan? You don't think Cash is like looking at my texts about the Oasis set list and you know, trying to wait for an opportunity?

[Michael Feinberg]

I don't know. Am I allowed to ask one silly question?

[Tim Miller]

Of course, yeah.

[Michael Feinberg]

Did they play any of the B sides? Like did you get acquiesce or the master plan?

[Tim Miller]

Of course we got the master plan and acquiesce. Yeah, it was almost all the first two records they played almost nothing. So we got a ton of B sides in the first two records. Almost nothing from the last few records. Little by little they played. I forget there may be like two or three songs. So we're not on the first two records. That's Perfect.

[Michael Feinberg]

Those are the two tours. I saw them for when I was much younger.

[Tim Miller]

You got to get back out there. You got two weeks. I think you can get to Heathrow and then get back in time for that child. All right.

[Michael Feinberg]

I am never going to stop resenting my son for having a due date the same week that Pulp is reuniting in D.C. so.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, that. Well, you can do it. You can make it to the hospital in time. I had a friend that was at an LSU game while his child was being born, and he made it to the hospital in time. It's all good. You can do it. Mike Feinberg, man, I'm sorry these are doing this to you. Thanks. But, you know, don't let him get you down. I appreciate your service to the country, and let's stay in touch. All right?

[Michael Feinberg]

Sounds good. Have a good one.

[Tim Miller]

Thanks, brother. Everybody up next, Ben, with us.

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[Tim Miller]

All right, we are back with the editor in chief. What is that right? Yeah. Editor in chief of Lawfare. He also writes Dog Shirt daily on Substack. It's our old buddy Ben Whittis. What's happening, man?

[Ben Wittes]

You know, just living the dream while, you know, I'm no worse than anybody else. I'm chilling in Washington while you're hanging out in Spain and Britain.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. With that American flag. I love that you still have a little patriotism in your soul, Ben, with us in these moments. Your guy, Mike Feinberg, who wrote that Goodbye to All that piece for LaFaire, just finished with you. Caught the end of that and I don't know, man. That guy, that's just one of these examples. It's like anytime you meet one of these supposed shadowy deep state people, it's like, this is crazy. It's like this guy's got fucking conservative philosophy books sitting behind him. You can sort of scroll in there and see his Bill Kristol style library and taking his job seriously doing China counterintelligence. And he's out of there because somebody spotted him at a concert with Pete Struck or something. The whole thing is lunacy.

[Ben Wittes]

Well, yeah. So he's. So I've known Mike for a long time. We're old workout buddies. And you're working out.

[Tim Miller]

What are you. What are you doing? Max benching or what?

[Ben Wittes]

No, no, it's more of a, you know, solid core Pilates kind of situation. But you know, Mike's kind of out of my league, but we've known each other for, it's gotta be more than 10 years now. And you know, whenever I've been on the show and you know, you guys, you or Charlie before, you would ask about like, you know, what's going on in the FBI and I would say something like, oh, you know, FBI agents are, are crafted. This isn't like, you know, you know, a year at the police academy, right? This isn't like, you know, these are people with exquisite expertise and I always mention, you know, language skills and you know, some of them are, you know, money laundering experts. And I'm always thinking of Mike when I, when I say this. This is a guy who's, you know, he speaks Chinese, he's a lawyer, he's a, he's spent 15 years in China. Counterintelligence. You know, this is the kind of person you get rid of at the peril of the institutional capacity of the agency. And he knows just a remarkable amount about a lot of different things. This is, you know, what, when people think of an FBI agent, they sometimes think of a kind of knuckle dragging cop. You know, yeah, he's got some tattoos and he can, you know, bench press a lot and he knows how to handle firearms. But he also, you know, has good Mandarin, knows the history of French film, you know, has read Proust and yeah, has a, has a wall of books that he's actually read that are reflect of, you know, conservative legal tradition and other stuff. So, you know, this is the type of person they're driving out of the Bureau.

[Tim Miller]

So let's just broaden that out a little bit because he was talking about the, you know, the actual bureau itself and you know, how there's been, you know, reporting about obviously the politicals getting run out of the seventh floor, but that it's actually broader than that as far as people leaving. The same thing's happening elsewhere and it's happened at doj. What's happening at State? Like, just talk about both from a institutional capacity perspective, but also sort of the legal perspective. Last time we were talking, we're talking about like, can they do this? You know, are these people going to be able to hire employment lawyers and stay on? Like, what is your sense for the breadth of the drain from DOJ and others?

[Ben Wittes]

The breadth is enormous. And, you know, I think the best way to understand it is as there's a purge going on, which is, you know, an active getting rid of a certain cadre that are politically suspect. There is also, you know, you see this with the Department of Education, with the State Department the other day. There's also a concurrent downsizing that is just like, let's just reduce the size and capacity of the agency, which is not targeted at individuals. It's just, let's rip this agency apart and make it less capable than it used to be. And then there's a third thing that, you know, is going on that I actually doesn't involve my particular areas, but it is, you know, worth thinking about in this context, which is a large scale destruction of the government's grant making capacity. And this is particularly acute in the scientific areas, the biomedical space. You know, the world's largest funder of cancer research, which is the National Cancer Institute, is, you know, getting out of the business of funding cancer research. Right. And so you have, I think, these three strains which are somewhat independent of one another, but all part of this larger package of war on what Trump thinks of as the deep state and those of us who live in a reality based environment would call the institutional capacities of the federal government. The magnitude of it is immense and hard to get your hands around because frankly, very few of us, I mean, I have expertise in the Justice Department and the FBI. I don't have expertise in, in the, you know, the, the grant making capacities in the medical research space of the US Federal government. And so very few people have a kind of holistic sense of what this looks like. But I do think thinking of it in 360 degree terms is important. There is another way to do it, another way to think about it, which is what are we spending money on? And you know, if you.

[Tim Miller]

Immigration detention centers.

[Ben Wittes]

That's right. So if you, if you say, if you look at it in the macro picture and you say what is the Trump administration spending money on? The answer is it is reducing funding for all of these traditional things that we think of in the sort of post war era as major government priorities. And it is spending that money and much more, by the way, on building detention facilities, though not adjudication capacity to deport as many people as humanly possible.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, just a quick aside because I want to get more into the staffing side of it, but on the grant making, since you mentioned it, I did a video last night. People should go check out for more details on this. But like they're doing this rescissions package today over on the Hill, which basically defunds things they already funded as a shorthand for what they're doing. The procedural vote passed last night, 50, 50 with Vance, it's a tie breaking vote. One of the things in it, they cut the, it's like 100 million for the UNICEF general fund, which essentially just is like the organization that whenever there's a major crisis in the world they go and ensure that kids like under five are able to get food like an access to nutrition. 100 million is like nothing like this bill they just passed the OBB that raises the deficit by 3 trillion, 4 trillion, 5 trillion depending on who, which analysis you look at. You know, this is just a total drop in the bucke. And to your point, it's hard to kind of for everybody to wrap their heads around everything, you know, that's being, that's being cut in these situations and it's like these small line items for people that don't have big lobbying efforts, you know, that do real good work.

[Ben Wittes]

And the great concession that the Republican moderates, such as they are gouged from the administration on the rescissions package was not cutting, I think it was $400 million for PEPFAR. So that that's the win. Right. I think, you know, the best way to understand the administration is and its priorities is in terms of the gross financial picture and that is, you know, cutting. And look, you can agree with these values, you can disagree with these values. I happen to find them morally appalling. But just describe, let's just describe them neutrally, which is we want to lock up and deport as many people as humanly possible and we want to cut the federal government down to size in nearly all other areas and we want to give enormous tax breaks. That's the gestalt picture.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, you could just kind of evenly describe that the recent funding decisions to spend, you know, whatever 450x on prison camps that you're going to spend on food aid for the world's youth. I mean that's just what they've decided to do. Back to the staffing stuff you wrote about Arez Ruvaney, I think I'm getting that right. A DOJ prosecutor who has been pushed out and just a huge kind of firestorm around that talk about that story as a kind of representative of what's happening right now.

[Ben Wittes]

So first of all, Erez Ruvini is not a prosecutor. He was a civil litigator in the immigration space whose job for the last 15 years has been to defend administration initiatives in the immigration space, including under the Trump administration. He's one of the people who defended the travel ban.

[Tim Miller]

In the woke travel ban. He was the defender of the woke travel ban.

[Ben Wittes]

He's on the briefs. I think he argued some of the stuff in the lower court. He's a very talented lawyer.

[Tim Miller]

He was like, it isn't really a Muslim ban because we also threw North Korea on top.

[Ben Wittes]

Exactly. That's, you know, I mean, there are a lot of positions that Erez Reuveni has litigated on behalf of a number of administrations. For that I don't share. I always believe in never criticizing the career lawyers for defending the administration policy because that is their job. That is why we hire them. And they don't formulate the policy. Their job is to defend the policy. In the Biden administration, you defend the Biden administration policy. In the Trump administration, you defend the Trump administration policy. As long as you are observing the ethical rules and norms of being a government lawyer, I exempt these people from criticism. Erez Ruvaney did exactly that. And he got fired for it. And not just fired, but Pam Bondi denounced him personally on national television. And the government doesn't even really deny the allegations. Not in a, you know, not in a meaningful way that he puts forward, which is that, you know, first of all, the, the Dracula, like Emil Bovey, you know, said to a room full of lawyers that they might have to say fuck you to court orders, that the government has lied to courts, has willfully defied court orders. And rouvainy unlike, you know, these themes are the same themes as we saw in the sort of Eric Adams dropping that case. But he did something that none of these other lawyers who've left have done, which is that he wrote a 27 page account of it all and included 150 pages of underlying documents that are really shocking. And you know, we can talk about the details of that.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, sure. Shocking in what way?

[Ben Wittes]

Yeah, well, so, you know, first of all, he, you know, when he says that Emil Bovey said we might have to say fuck you to the courts, he then has, you know, a bunch of texts between him and other lawyers when they seem to be defying the court orders, where the one of the other lawyers says, I've guessed we've reached the fuck you point.

[Tim Miller]

This is like defying the. And this is in the context for people. This is defying the court orders around immigration, stuff such as like the plains to El Salvador and Abrego Garcia.

[Ben Wittes]

Exactly.

[Tim Miller]

And, and venue, the Brego Garcia case was the.

[Ben Wittes]

So he works on three cases kind of concurrently that are all still. One is Brago Garcia, one is the JGG case, which is the Alien Enemies act. Case to El Salvador. And then the third is this DVD case where, you know, that ends up with the flights to South Sudan. Right. And in each of these cases, he's trying to restrain the government from essentially first defying court orders, but then failing utterly in its duty of candor to the court. And in each case, he is either pushed back at quite senior levels or ignored. And then, look, he files this document. Emil Bovey then has his confirmation hearing. He is asked repeatedly about Mr. Ravaney's allegations. And he. I think it is very hard to escape the conclusion that he lies under oath about it. He says he doesn't recall saying that they were going to have to say fuck you to Judge Boasberg. And I think it is very hard to escape the conclusion that both he and at least one other Justice Department lawyer were engaged in a willful, not to mention the, you know, the DHS hierarchy were engaged in a, an effort to deport people illegally, irrespective of what the courts had to say about it. And so look, you know, this material is now public. And the real question is, does anybody care?

[Tim Miller]

Well, is that the. Do we have to answer that question?

[Ben Wittes]

I mean, look, yeah, I think, I think actually that's the real question. Because the answer for, you know, if you could get two or three Senate Republicans to care, that would be, well, you need four, but that would be an important thing. No chance of that, in my view.

[Tim Miller]

This is the shocking thing to me about, and this goes back to the Feinberg situation, and maybe shocking isn't the right word, but this is the dispiriting thing, is that, you know, I understand, I don't support, but I understand kind of the own, the libs drink, the liberal tears reaction that you see online when the State Department bureaucrats are like, boxing up their stuff and getting out of there and the Department of Education is trying to. This is old right wing, anti government ideology. Right. And they don't think that a lot of people in the federal government do good work and it's fine for a lot of them to be fired. Right? So I'm not endorsing that. I'm just saying, like, that is something that is understandable. The dispiriting thing is that in the DOJ and an FBI, we are talking about people that are being kicked out, that are totally apolitical, that are doing objectively real work to keep the country safe, to defend the rule of law in the country and the fact that across the board people are being run out on the rail, kicked out. You Know, expertise is being lost. They're. They're stopping doing certain types of investigations in service of, like, in service of nothing. In terms of the paranoia of the podcast host who's the deputy FBI director. Right. Like, that is the thing that is. You would. You would imagine that there'd be one Republican on the Hill that would be like, wait a minute. I. We need to have more respect for the people that are putting their lives on the line for the country that are trying to protect us, that work at the, you know, work at these law enforcement agencies. And like, there's nothing. Zero.

[Ben Wittes]

Let's talk about Senator Thom Tillis in particular. The now venerated Thom Tillis, who is venerated.

[Tim Miller]

I missed that.

[Ben Wittes]

Yeah, yeah. That. Had that happened while you were away.

[Tim Miller]

Because I would have disabused the venerators if I had been. Been in doubt.

[Ben Wittes]

You know, he. He. The big beautiful bill, and he. When Trump attacked him and said he was going to organize a primary campaign against him, he announced that he wasn't running for reelection anyway. And, you know, this augured a great new era of independence on the part of Thom Tillis. Thom Tillis spent much of the month of January fiercely defending Cash Patel and criticizing aggressively those who were suggesting that he might be a conspiracy theorist who had no business running the FBI. I have not. You know, while Tillis has said that he regrets his vote for rfk, now, he has not said anything of the kind about Mr. Patel, to my knowledge, anyway. And moreover, I have not heard him say that, you know, it is simply unacceptable for Emil Bovey to do the things that he is credibly said to have done. In fact, has provided no evidence that he didn't do, and that coming up to the Senate Judiciary Committee and saying in response to era's Ravaney's allegations, that he just doesn't recall whether he said, fuck you about the courts. You cannot confirm somebody to be a Judge on the 3rd Circuit United States Court of Appeals, which, you know, is he going to vote for Emil Bovey? I wouldn't bet against it, let's put it that way. This is a completely unacceptable set of behaviors by a lot of different people. And we haven't heard boo from the Inspector General of the Justice Department. Senate Republicans don't care. The D.C. circuit Court of Appeals put a stay on Judge Boasberg's contempt inquiry, an administrative stay, and then have been radio silent for three months. And so my question is, when you have people behaving this way, what is the mechanism of accountability or Is there none?

[Tim Miller]

I don't know. I mean, I think that there is none. Right. If the Senate Republicans aren't going to, are going to do anything about it, it is crazy. In the context of the Epstein thing, I've been doing a lot of interviews with the Epstein thing. I understand why Republican based voters and podcasters are upset about the Epstein file situation. But like, for ostensibly responsible senators, it's insane that there are Republican members of the US Senate that are trying to get accountability for Trump on not releasing the redacted Epstein files. But there's not a single one who feels like, hey, maybe it was a bad thing that we ran out the China expert from the FBI because Kash Patel's fifis were hurt, that like some, some other random, you know, he was friends with some random person. Again, similarly to the funding, it's a telling breakdown of what the priorities are.

[Ben Wittes]

Yes. So let's talk about the Real Housewives of the Justice Department. Normally, you would say it is a bad thing that the deputy FBI director just goes walkabout on a, you know, Friday, refuses to come into the office and won't say whether he's quit.

[Tim Miller]

I'm sorry, Ben. We all need mental health days sometimes. You know, if you never stormed out of the office just because you're mad at a colleague, decided you need to eat ice cream and, and, you know, watch Bravo all day, I just want.

[Ben Wittes]

To say I totally respect Dan Bongino's right to do it. Normally the President of the United States, when you ask him on a Monday morning, do you have a deputy FBI director? This literally happened Monday and Trump said, I think so.

[Tim Miller]

Like, you know, he literally, like Costanza shows back up at the seventh floor and he's like, what? You guys took me seriously? You thought I was you? That little joke on Friday about me.

[Ben Wittes]

Quitting, I understand that, you know, people think everybody needs a mental health day. The deputy FBI director is one of the true workhorse jobs of the federal government. And you don't just walk out in a snit and say about the attorney general, either she goes or I goes. And by, and by the way, the fact like, these people are like, acting like this is, you know, normally you would think it's a bad thing that they're, they've turned the upper echelons of the Justice Department and the FBI into a weird, like, the girlies are fighting reality show right now. I'm relieved that they're, you know, fighting over whether a dead guy for, he's been dead for what, six years now, 75 years. Whether he had files and they were on the Attorney General's desk or whether he never had files and that was never on the Attorney General's desk. And by the way, Dan Bungino's quit. No, he's not. Yeah, he's playing golf. I mean, I love this. And the reason is the more consumed they are with destroying each other, the less focused they are going to be on destroying the cultures of the agencies that they're running. And so, you know, bring it on. It's the Iran Iraq war. Arm both sides, amplify all the messaging.

[Tim Miller]

I think we should have like a bonjin oh, Bondi, kind of like a food fight, like in a cage, like a WWE style thing where like they both get cakes, they get to throw each other pay per view. I would pay for that.

[Ben Wittes]

I would totally. I wouldn't pay for it. I'd pirate it. But yeah, I mean, look, it is profoundly embarrassing that this is what the upper echelons of the law enforcement apparatus of the United States is doing. And the fact that we all kind of treated it like a Q and on themed soap opera going on at the attorney General and FBI director level was just kind of a normal weekend. And that the stories should be broken by Laura Loomer and Axios. Right.

[Tim Miller]

Like, these aren't like congrats to Axios on that.

[Ben Wittes]

I think it is a, it's a telling marker of where we are. Let's just put it that way.

[Tim Miller]

I've got another telling marker. Just one more thing on the staffing. So we've been, you heard from Mike Feinberg, the type of expertise we're losing from, from the FBI. I want to highlight somebody who's coming back to work. A former FBI agent who is charged with encouraging the mob that stormed the Capitol on January 6th to kill police officers, has been named as an advisor to the Justice Department task force that President Trump recently established to look into retribution against his political foes. That's Jared Wise and he's going to work for Eagle Eyed Martin.

[Ben Wittes]

Yeah. Former FBI agent.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. I thought the FBI agents were all part of a deep state plot to go after Trump and it was the woke liberal agents bureau. That seems to be wrong. If, if Jared Wise was working there.

[Ben Wittes]

Well, yeah, I mean one thing that I've never met and I, you know, I, I've hung out in FBI circles quite a bit. Left wing FBI agents, they don't exist.

[Tim Miller]

Never met like a purple haired nose ring, non binary FBI age.

[Ben Wittes]

They all work for nsa.

[Tim Miller]

Okay.

[Ben Wittes]

I'M curious. Those, those, those people are like you. You walk around the halls in Fort Meade and there'll be like some, you know, girl with purple hair walking next to a military officer. And, you know, those people are linguists and computer science geeks and math geeks, and that's all of. But the FBI is like, it's a bunch of conservative white guys.

[Tim Miller]

We do honor their service to the nsa, too. We really, we appreciate it. And always, if they get run out on the rail as well, they're also welcome on the Blorg podcast. All right, I want to do a little Ukraine. Is it good news? Obviously, unimaginable suffering has happened in Ukraine over the last six months while Donald Trump played out his melodrama with Vladimir Putin. And so it's horrible. So this is not a rah rah Trump thing, but does it feel like maybe something has changed here, or do you think that this is a can kick? Trump does this, you know, seems to be upset with Putin more open to allowing Zelensky to use offensive weapons. Zelensky is getting some ATACMs and Patriots that are needed and long overdue. Like, what's your assessment of the state of play and what are you hearing from your Ukraine pals?

[Ben Wittes]

All right, I have three things to say about this. First of all, let's distinguish between two policies that were announced on Monday. The first is the availability of weapons to Ukraine. The second is, Vladimir, you have 50 days to sign an agreement, otherwise punishing sanctions. I think the second one, you know, an inexplicable 50 day grace period. I don't think that is a big change of policy. It is a change of tone. To put the onus essentially entirely on Putin is a significant change of tone, and I do think there's promise in that. But 50 days is a long time. A lot of Ukrainians are going to get killed in those 50 days. And I don't think Trump deserves a lot of credit for, you know, announcing that something bad will happen to Russia 50 days from now. The weapons issue is a, is a different matter. And I think it's assuming it's real. And I want to see the actual weapons transfers happen before I assume that.

[Tim Miller]

Because I make sure Darren Beatty doesn't put a stop, you know, stop delivery.

[Ben Wittes]

On this, for example. I also want to make sure Trump doesn't change his mind. And I want to make sure that the Europeans are as aggressive when it comes to actually spending money as they are when it comes to talking about it, which is a, a chronic issue that Policy change is, is very important. And my willingness to criticize the Trump administration is almost infinite. But I do want to give him credit for that. If it happens, it's a very big deal. And Ukraine desperately needs those new, more air defenses. It has been asking for long range missile capability for a long time. If it gets both, that is a big deal. Now, there are two things that I don't like about this deal. One is that I don't know for sure that it's really happening. And so my, my willingness to say, well, you know, this is, this is a great thing. It should have happened eight months ago, but it's a great thing, blah, blah, blah, is tempered by the fact that I'm not 100% sure it's really happening. So hold, hold that thought. But the other thing is that I don't love the fallback to the position that, you know, we're not going to spend a dime, Europe's going to pay for it, and our involvement here is sort of transactional. We're going to supply weapons to Europe so that they can give them to Ukrainians and they will pay for them. Now, this is a, the best we can hope for from Trump, I think, and I don't, I don't want to be churlish about it, but we should be supporting Ukraine with money. And what will be to me, the Rubicon where Trump, I will say, yes, Donald Trump has changed on Ukraine in a profound way and has adopted a policy that is consistent with what I think US Policy should be, is when he goes to Congress and asks for a supplemental of whatever size is appropriate for U.S. spending. That goes back to the earlier part of our conversation where we say, look at how they're spending money and they're still not spending money supplying weapons to Ukraine. And so I think it is, look, it's an important step. It's a big change. And it does, it will save lives in Ukraine if it really happens. So I don't want to sound churlish about it. Is it, this is the day he became the president.

[Tim Miller]

No, no.

[Ben Wittes]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

I will add one amendment that's slightly churlish, but more, more cheeky than churlish, I guess, is it should be worth mentioning that that obscene scene in the Oval Office where JD Vance was demanding that Volodymyr Zelensky thank him for doing nothing. The origin of that fight, like the crux of that fight, rather than was that Zelensky was just trying to say to them that they're trusting Putin, they shouldn't trust him. That was basically the crux of the fight, was that, like, you. Like, Zelensky's basically, like, I hear what you guys are saying, but, like, he's been saying this for a decade and a half. You cannot trust that he says that he's going to come to the negotiation table. They're going to keep attacking us. And then Trump and J.D. vance got their butt hurt and pissed that Zelensky was saying that. And now here's Trump this week saying essentially Zelensky was right. And he didn't say Zelensky was right, but he's saying, yeah, yeah, like Putin. Putin didn't do what he said he was going to do, it turns out. And it's like, that's all Zelensky was trying to tell him, and he was doing it in a very modest way. And it created this. This Oval Office scene, this kind of petulant, you know, reaction from Trump and Vance. And anyway, it merits mentioning.

[Ben Wittes]

Oh, it merits mentioning. Look, nothing can redeem Trump's treatment of Ukraine in the first six months of his administration. And in no sense, when I say that this is a big deal and it will save a lot of lives, is that meant to undermine the point that the first six months of the Trump administration have been a very, very deep betrayal of our European allies and Ukrainians who are under fire. I am approaching the question from a slightly different point, which is Ukraine really, really needs new, more interceptors and more Patriot batteries, and it may just get them now, and I am very grateful for that. I am not praising Donald Trump.

[Tim Miller]

Ben with us. Thanks for checking in, as always. It's good to see you, my friend. Everybody go head over to lawfare Media. Sign up for the newsletters Dog Shirt Daily. I do. I do like the situation. Ben's been writing the Situation, which is occasionally very serious and at times, you know, has a more comedic tone to it.

[Ben Wittes]

I try to make one out of four of them. Three out of four are super earnest and angry, and one out of four is written with the idea that if you're not making fun of the situation, you are part of the situation.

[Tim Miller]

We'll leave it there. Everybody go sign up for lawfare. Ben, I'll be talking to you soon. And listeners, we'll be seeing you back here tomorrow for another edition of the Bulwark Podcast. Peace.

[Robert Burns]

Take the time to make some sense of what you want to say and cast your word Birds away upon the waves Sail them home with acquiesce on a ship of hope today and as they land upon the shore Tell them not to fear no more say it loud and sing it proud today.

[Tim Miller]

And.

[Robert Burns]

Then dance if you want to dance Please brother take a chance you know they gonna go which way they wanna go we know is that we don't know how it's gonna be Please brother let it be Life on the other hand won't make us understand we're all part of a master Sam today I'm not saying right is wrong it's up to us to make the best of all the things that come our way Cuz everything that's been has passed the answers and the looking glass as more and $20 million say it loud, sing it proud we'll dance if they want to dance Please brother take a chance you know they got to go which way they want to go we know is that we don't know how it's going to be please life on the other hand won't make you understand.

[Tim Miller]

We'Re.

[Robert Burns]

All.

[Tim Miller]

The the Borg Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown. Buying a car in Carvana was so easy.

[Trace Minerals]

I was able to finance it through them.

[Tim Miller]

I just.

[Ben Wittes]

Whoa, wait, you mean finance?

[Michael Feinberg]

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[Tim Miller]

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[Trace Minerals]

All within my budget.

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That's cool. But financing through Carvana was so easy. Finance financed, done. And I get to pick up my car from their Carvana vending machine tomorrow.

[Trace Minerals]

Financed, Right?

[Tim Miller]

That's what I said.

[Trace Minerals]

You can spend time trying to pronounce financing or you can actually finance and buy your car today. On Carvana financing, subject to credit approval, additional terms and conditions may apply.