Detailed Summary of "Ben Wittes and Michael Feinberg: Breakdown at the FBI"
Podcast Information:
- Title: The Bulwark Podcast
- Host/Author: The Bulwark
- Episode: Ben Wittes and Michael Feinberg: Breakdown at the FBI
- Release Date: July 16, 2025
- Description: Tim Miller and guests discuss the latest political news for the flagship podcast of the Never Trump movement and the reality-based community. Every weekday, insightful analysis, political hot-takes, an unabashed defense of liberal democracy, and long-form interviews that cut through the "both-sides" BS are provided.
Introduction
The episode opens with Tim Miller introducing a “Lawfare double header” featuring Ben Wittes and Michael Feinberg. Michael Feinberg, a former Assistant Special Agent in Charge of the Norfolk National Security and Intelligence Programs at the FBI, recently resigned after facing a potential demotion due to his friendship with Pete Strzok, a figure previously spotlighted in Donald Trump's Russia investigation narratives.
Michael Feinberg’s Resignation and Background
Tim Miller provides context on Feinberg’s resignation, highlighting his extensive career in the FBI, including his role as Unit Chief at the J. Edgar Hoover Building in Washington, D.C. The conversation quickly shifts to personal anecdotes, with Michael sharing his disappointment over the circumstances leading to his departure.
Notable Quote:
"I was explicitly told by my special agent in charge that my career was functionally over."
— Michael Feinberg [05:38]
Political Influence and the FBI
Michael Feinberg delves into the political dynamics within the FBI, specifically addressing how figures like Dan Bongino and Kash Patel are perceived to foster a “deep state conspiracy” mindset. He emphasizes that his friendship with Pete Strzok was purely based on shared interests, such as their mutual admiration for The Smiths, dispelling notions of any deeper conspiracy ties.
Notable Quote:
"Patel and Bongino really do believe that there is some sort of deep state conspiracy... which is just, quite frankly, not true."
— Michael Feinberg [06:06]
Shifts in FBI Priorities
The discussion shifts to the reallocation of the FBI’s resources under the current administration. Feinberg criticizes the redirection of skilled agents from national security and white-collar crime investigations to immigration enforcement and perimeter security tasks, roles traditionally outside the FBI’s core competencies.
Notable Quote:
"Instead of doing that, you now have massive amounts of agents standing around doing perimeter security, rounding up children and grandmas."
— Michael Feinberg [12:15]
DOJ and Institutional Capacity Drain
Ben Wittes joins the conversation, expanding the scope to include the Department of Justice (DOJ) and other federal agencies. He outlines a comprehensive “purge” targeting politically suspect individuals, coupled with general downsizing efforts that undermine the institutional capacities of these bodies.
Notable Quote:
"There is a purge going on, which is, you know, an active getting rid of a certain cadre that are politically suspect."
— Ben Wittes [37:32]
Internal Culture and Morale in the FBI
Feinberg provides insight into the deteriorating morale within the FBI workforce. Many agents feel disillusioned, believing their work no longer aligns with protecting national security but instead serves political agendas. He contrasts the sentiment among the general workforce with that of senior executives, some of whom are perceived as opportunistic.
Notable Quote:
"The workforce... is miserable. They joined the FBI out of a real desire to serve their country and protect it from serious threats. And a lot of them don't feel like they're doing that anymore."
— Michael Feinberg [16:12]
Discussion on Accountability Mechanisms
The conversation touches on the lack of accountability mechanisms within the FBI and DOJ. Feinberg expresses skepticism that current leadership understands the FBI's operational intricacies enough to misuse its powers effectively. However, he remains concerned about the long-term cultural erosion under Kash Patel’s leadership.
Notable Quote:
"I don't think Patel or Bongino understand enough about how the FBI works to fully leverage its abilities."
— Michael Feinberg [30:34]
Ben Wittes’ Insights on DOJ and Federal Agencies
Ben Wittes elaborates on the widespread impact of the administrative purge, noting that similar actions are occurring across various departments, including Education and State. He also highlights the devastating effects on the government’s grant-making capacities, particularly in scientific and biomedical research.
Notable Quote:
"The breadth is enormous... there's a large scale destruction of the government's grant making capacity."
— Ben Wittes [37:32]
Epstein Files and Conspiracy Theories
The discussion briefly veers into the Epstein investigation, addressing conspiracy theories surrounding missing video footage. Feinberg dismisses these theories, emphasizing the rigor and transparency of FBI investigations and cautioning against allowing conspiracy theorists to influence law enforcement narratives.
Notable Quote:
"This is a prime example of why you don't want conspiracy theorists running a really important law enforcement and intelligence gathering operation."
— Michael Feinberg [26:35]
Ukraine Policy Discussion
Towards the end of the episode, the focus shifts to recent policy changes regarding Ukraine. Ben Wittes acknowledges Donald Trump's limited but significant shift in policy, allowing Ukraine access to offensive weapons, which he views as a necessary step despite initial delays and hesitations. However, he criticizes the transactional nature of the policy, emphasizing the need for sustained financial support from the U.S. and its allies.
Notable Quote:
"Ukraine desperately needs those new, more air defenses. It has been asking for long range missile capability for a long time. If it gets both, that is a big deal."
— Ben Wittes [61:05]
Conclusion
The episode wraps up with reflections on the current state of federal law enforcement agencies, the erosion of institutional integrity, and the broader implications for American democracy. Tim Miller and Ben Wittes encourage listeners to engage with Lawfare Media and stay informed about ongoing governmental changes.
Notable Quotes Highlighted:
- Michael Feinberg [05:38]: "I was explicitly told by my special agent in charge that my career was functionally over."
- Michael Feinberg [06:06]: "Patel and Bongino really do believe that there is some sort of deep state conspiracy... which is just, quite frankly, not true."
- Michael Feinberg [12:15]: "Instead of doing that, you now have massive amounts of agents standing around doing perimeter security, rounding up children and grandmas."
- Ben Wittes [37:32]: "There is a purge going on, which is, you know, an active getting rid of a certain cadre that are politically suspect."
- Michael Feinberg [16:12]: "The workforce... is miserable. They joined the FBI out of a real desire to serve their country and protect it from serious threats. And a lot of them don't feel like they're doing that anymore."
- Michael Feinberg [30:34]: "I don't think Patel or Bongino understand enough about how the FBI works to fully leverage its abilities."
- Ben Wittes [37:32]: "The breadth is enormous... there's a large scale destruction of the government's grant making capacity."
- Michael Feinberg [26:35]: "This is a prime example of why you don't want conspiracy theorists running a really important law enforcement and intelligence gathering operation."
- Ben Wittes [61:05]: "Ukraine desperately needs those new, more air defenses. It has been asking for long range missile capability for a long time. If it gets both, that is a big deal."
This episode provides a critical examination of the internal challenges facing the FBI and DOJ, highlighting the impact of political interference on national security operations and institutional integrity. The candid insights from Michael Feinberg and Ben Wittes paint a concerning picture of declining morale, loss of expertise, and shifting priorities within key federal agencies.