The Bulwark Podcast: Ben Wittes – "Who the F* Are You?"**
Release Date: February 25, 2025

In this thought-provoking episode of The Bulwark Podcast, host Tim Miller engages in a candid and incisive conversation with Ben Wittes, Editor in Chief of Lawfare and Senior Fellow in Governance Studies at the Brookings Institution. The discussion delves deep into the intricacies of legal analyses surrounding executive actions, the unsettling shifts within the FBI's leadership, and the evolving landscape of U.S.-Ukraine relations. The episode also introduces listeners to new voices joining the conversation, including Anastasia Lapotna and Tyler McBrien.

1. Opening Remarks and Lawfare's Role

[01:38] Tim Miller welcomes Ben Wittes back to the podcast, highlighting Wittes' extensive work with Lawfare and his contributions to Dog Shirt Daily on Substack. Wittes humorously reflects on the current political climate, remarking, "every time you think you've hit bottom, you scratch and there's a Dan Bongino underneath."

Miller shares his appreciation for Lawfare, noting its resurgence in providing detailed legal analyses, especially during tumultuous times. Wittes elaborates on Lawfare's mission: "We try to give information to legal practitioners who are working in this space... talking about this in the language that people are going to have to talk about it in briefs."

2. Analyzing Executive Orders and Legal Challenges

The conversation shifts to the complexity of interpreting and responding to executive orders. Wittes emphasizes the necessity of separating political reactions from legal scrutiny:

[04:31] "If you are talking in politics, you do not have to take this stuff seriously. And you shouldn't take it seriously... What we do is we try to give information to legal practitioners who are working in this space."

Miller critiques the use of buzzwords in legal defenses, coining the term "legal wash" to describe the convoluted justifications often presented in legal briefs supporting contentious executive actions.

3. The Enigma of 'Doge' and Federal Oversight

A significant portion of the discussion centers around the mysterious entity referred to as "Doge." Wittes explains the challenges in identifying the administrative head of this federal agency, highlighting a recent hearing involving Judge Colleen Collar:

[07:56] "Yesterday there was a hearing... questioning really matters because, you know, there's all kinds of things that presume that there is such a thing as a doge."

Miller connects this to broader themes of transparency and accountability within the administration, questioning the authority and legitimacy of "Doge's" actions, especially regarding financial disbursements to critical programs.

4. Critique of the U.S. Attorney's Office under Ed Martin

Wittes offers a scathing critique of Ed Martin, the acting U.S. attorney, highlighting his aggressive stance against entities like the Associated Press:

[17:00] "I think listeners might need to know why the AP is not an America first organization... And I am, of course, speaking sarcastically when I praise."

Miller humorously responds, reinforcing the podcast's critical stance towards Martin's priorities and actions within the Justice Department.

5. FBI Leadership Shake-up and Its Implications

The episode delves into recent leadership changes within the FBI, particularly the appointment of Dan Bongino as Deputy Director. Wittes raises concerns about Bongino's qualifications and the potential impact on the bureau's effectiveness:

[32:00] "Dan Bongino is not a career FBI agent... And so it could not be more insulting and it could not be more dangerous."

Miller highlights Bongino's controversial background, questioning his suitability for such a pivotal role within federal law enforcement.

6. Consequences of Executive Overreach on Federal Agencies

Wittes discusses the broader ramifications of the Trump administration's aggressive firings within federal agencies, emphasizing the loss of expertise and the undermining of institutions:

[39:02] "We effectively lose those who have crucial expertise... These are people with families... expected to spend their careers in The Bureau."

Miller echoes these concerns, illustrating the real-world impacts of administrative decisions on public safety and institutional integrity.

7. Launch of the 'Escalation' Podcast: Exploring U.S.-Ukraine Relations

The latter part of the episode introduces Anastasia Lapotna and Tyler McBrien as they discuss their new podcast, Escalation, which chronicles the history and complexities of U.S.-Ukraine relations. The trio explores themes such as:

• Misunderstandings and Missteps: Anastasia shares insights into the fraught dynamics between the U.S. and Ukraine, particularly in the context of leadership and policy decisions.

  [56:38] Anastasia Lapotna: "...the more Trump attacks Zelensky, the more Ukrainians rally around Zelenskyy... they think he's our legitimate president, our legitimate government."

• Strategic Ambiguity and Its Detriments: Tyler McBrien critiques the U.S.'s historical approach to Ukraine policy, highlighting how strategic ambiguity has often disadvantaged Ukraine.

  [61:28] Tyler McBrien: "The US has often trafficked in this type of strategic ambiguity only to Ukraine's detriment."

• Unity Amidst Crisis: Despite internal criticisms, Ukrainians exhibit remarkable unity in the face of external threats, bolstering Zelenskyy's standing even amidst domestic dissatisfaction.

8. Concluding Thoughts and Future Directions

Wittes reflects on the evolving U.S.-Ukraine relationship, expressing concern over the Trump administration's shifts:

[59:12] "We fundamentally changed the nature of the relationship to one that is imperialistic, extractive and cooperative with the totalitarian regime."

The episode concludes with a somber acknowledgment of the challenges ahead, underscoring the importance of informed legal discourse and vigilant institutional protection.

Notable Quotes:

• Ben Wittes [02:22]: "It just goes down into the center of the earth. And there is Dan Bongino waiting for you, hugging you on the way down, bringing you down with him."

• Tim Miller [11:53]: "You are not the boss of me."

• Anastasia Lapotna [51:26]: "Apparently there is a joke... that after Zelensky's fiery press conference... Trump might want to nuke us."

• Tyler McBrien [61:28]: "The US has often trafficked in this type of strategic ambiguity only to Ukraine's detriment."

This episode serves as a crucial examination of the intersections between legal frameworks, executive power, and international relations, providing listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the current political and legal challenges facing the United States.