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- [02:13]
Tim Miller
Hello and welcome to the Bull Work podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. It is. It's December 1st. Somehow I don't. I don't really know how that happened. I got to start Christmas Shopping. I don't, I don't know what's, what's going on. Bill, how are you doing? How's your Thanksgiving?
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Bill Kristol
Time flies when you're having fun, Tim. You know, it's the Trump, Trump. Sometimes the Trump era seems like it goes in dog years or whatever, but maybe this is the opposite. We're all.
- [02:33]
Tim Miller
Yeah. I don't know. It has felt like a long year.
- [02:36]
Bill Kristol
But my Thanksgiving was good. Thank you. And yours.
- [02:38]
Tim Miller
Mine is good. The whole family was at a big house on the beach, which, which explains my beach clothes for the YouTube viewers. You know, is that restful to have four children under seven at the beach? Not really. But is it fun and nice and wholesome? It is. So I'm happy to be back with you, though. I want to indulge, you know, it's podcast hosts rights, I think, to begin, it's a lot of news. But to begin with the stuff that's happening on my neck of the woods, which is in New Orleans. And the Border Patrol plans its invasion of New Orleans into Jackson Square beginning today. Unfortunately, I'm flying back tonight, so I'll be in the air during this. But there is a Protest tonight at 6pm in Lafayette Square for all the, all the locals listening, if you want to head down there. You had your conversation yesterday with Aaron Reichland Melnick that focused on immigration and what their plans are. Obviously this is absurd to send the CPB into New Orleans. This is a solution in search of a problem and we'll kind of see how it shakes out. But based on what we've now seen in Chicago, Charlotte and elsewhere, I think we know it's coming. So I'm wondering what your thoughts are on that and your conversation with Aaron yesterday.
- [03:47]
Bill Kristol
I mean, I am curious to see what happens. And I think the upshot of my conversation with Aaron was worrisome. And he's a genuine expert on this, obviously, and follows it very closely and has been, I think, a voice of alarm, but a little bit cautious alarm in the sense that, well, they can't really ramp up as fast as they said they would and there are some legal constraints. But he's been struck too by just how far they've gone, how far they're going. And with all the money that's flooding in and all their talk about now moving beyond just, well, gee, we have to kick out the criminals to just flat out re migration. We've got to clean, you know, we're going to remove 53 million foreigners. Most of Trump said didn't hear it was At Thanksgiving, his Thanksgiving tweet, most of whom I think he said are criminals and other such types and public charges. Unbelievable nonsense. They seem to be all in on this. And you know, practically, I've always thought, won't Trump pull back a little? It's not very popular. It's getting crazier and crazier, but there seems to be no instinct to pull back. So I think for me, what it says is we sort of want to think we've seen the worst of it. You know, probably Chicago, that was kind of, that was bad. But, you know, they've got to let up at some point. They've got money flooding in, they're hiring people. They're hiring people who like doing this. Apparently the more you see these videos of ICE and the Border Patrol, they're finding new cities to go to, as you just said, and it's bad. I mean, I think the degree to which we are going to have this just chugging ahead in a lawless and brutal way and the radicalization of the anti immigration agenda, if I can put it that way, it's not good.
- [05:16]
Tim Miller
The individual stories, you know, I'm already obviously getting a lot of texts from folks locally in Louisiana and just anecdotes. Little Mexican restaurant that opened up after Hurricane Katrina, like closing down because they don't want to put any of the workers at risk. That dialysis center saying like people aren't showing up to get their dialysis because there's worried that ICE is going to be there. I mean, it's just like there's just so few people that are for this. To your point about like the, the, the political argument for it is, is crazy. And I do think that the importance in this case of the aforementioned protest and showing up and speaking out about it, because while it seems like Trump and Miller, et cetera, are not going to be cowed, I do think that to the extent that we're seeing some cracks in other Republican world, I think it's possible that some of them will be less supportive as this continues to escalate and go forward. And I think that it's important to kind of focus on it for that reason.
- [06:13]
Bill Kristol
I totally agree. And I say this in the newsletter in a slightly different context, but Congress can control this. I mean, the notion that there's nothing we can do except demonstrate. And I'm for demonstrating, don't get me wrong, I'd be very impressed. I think actually the citizen action with regard to ICE, 98% of it, 2% of it's probably over the top, but has been really admirable, I've got to say. People are taking risks and doing much more than they need to do to go out on the street and help people who are being harassed and not more than harassed, I mean, being obviously seized by ICE and harassed as well. So I'm impressed by the citizen reaction. But Congress can stop it. Congress can put all kinds of rules in place on use of ice, use of Border Patrol, standards by which they should pursue, under which they should operate and so forth. I feel I was silly saying Congress, Congress, Congress, the Republicans in Congress. Could you please do something? It's like pathetic to keep saying it, I suppose. On the other hand, as you say, there are some cracks and they really do need to do something. Otherwise we're going to have three years. If you didn't like what you've been seeing in Chicago for the last month or two, we're going to have a year or maybe three years of that and city after city and what is it going to do to the country? I mean, and then with tens of billions of dollars more behind ICE and the Border Patrol.
- [07:29]
Tim Miller
Yeah, I mean, Congress is funding it to the point that they can stop it, put rules around it. I think it actually, it feels pathetic, but it isn't to bring out the Republicans in Congress. There's a story I came across this morning about something that's kind of flown under the radar, but Trump's pulled a lot nominees lately because like Republican senators behind the scenes are doing things. So again, you had Epstein, the vote go against him and everything unravel as he starts to feel more like a lame duck. Just sort of a little bit more courage or a little bit more willingness to kind of, you know, put sticks in the spokes of what they're trying to do. I think it's possible. I, I don't think it's particularly likely, particularly on this issue since it's so central to Trump. But you know, I mean, there are potentially things around the edges that could be done. And obviously in Louisiana, this is only happening because our stupid governor is allowing it to happen. And maybe in certain states, not Louisiana, unfortunately, but in other states, I do wonder if the politics are a little different. We talk about the individual stories, just this other one from over the weekend of Lucia Belloza. She's a 19 year old college student. She was brought to the US from Honduras when she was eight. She was on her way to surprise her family for Thanksgiving break. Flying from the Northeast out of Texas, she was detained at the airport in Boston and deported to Honduras. She had a federal judge's order blocking removal, and yet the government deported her anyway to a country that she hasn't lived in since she was 8. Just insane, totally depraved behavior that has, like 20% support in the country doing, like, deporting dream or kids back to countries they never really lived in. You know, And I think in addition to being illegal, like, the other thing that struck me for over the weekend was Kristi Noem was out, and she basically confirms in an interview that she approved the planes that sent the Venezuelans to sicot in El Salvador, even after the judge objected. And so you do, I think, have like this humanitarian crisis along with like a real. Some real rule of law, you know, questions and potential issues down the line should we ever get through this.
- [09:38]
Bill Kristol
It is depraved. That's a good word for it, unfortunately. I mean, really unfortunately, that this is happening in this country and these are not marginal cases. This is not the sort of reasonable version of a restrictionist agenda. We should let fewer people in. We should be a little stricter about the ones we find who have broken the law and maybe done something violent and make sure they really get expelled. It's so many miles or whatever furlongs I don't remove from this. And also, the mask came off this weekend, this past few days in terms of what their agenda is with Trump embracing remigration, term that's become popular on the far right in Europe to mean. And this is literally what it means. And what Trump's implying with this is 53 million foreigners not just stop people from coming. We want to get rid of people who've come here, not just people who've broken the law, but people who've come here legally or people who are undocumented but haven't broken any other laws, but even if they are documented and they're children. Because we want to turn this country to get rid of the impact of all these people, basically brown and black people basically in Europe and here who have come to this country and. And When Trump says 53 million foreigners, most of whom are criminals or public charges or sponging off the country, whatever he says in that one tweet, he's talking about, I don't know, he's talking about J.D. vance's in laws, right? He's talking about his wife, his wife just mentioned, and his own in laws. I mean, not that he cares, I guess, but it's grotesque. It really is grotesque. And the policy that follows from this understanding is depraved. And so un American, so anti American. The public has been good, actually, in its reaction, I would say, all things considered, given that they were genuinely concerned about the border and that Trump had a bit of an advantage on that issue to start of. But it'd be nice if Republican members of Congress and other elites spoke up a little. It's not like business leaders don't have some say in this. It's not like they couldn't raise this when they were at their black tie dinners with Trump. It's not like others couldn't raise this weigh in. So I really, I don't know, maybe as I say, one feels a little foolish sometimes just saying this over and over, but things do change. You know, you say things a few times that don't have any effect and then if Trump's at 38% instead of 45%, and if, as you say, if there are cracks that are emerging into support because of Epstein and other issues, one has to just keep saying it, I guess.
- [11:53]
Tim Miller
Sure. And business leaders locally also own Charlotte, New Orleans. And I was looking at kind of the list of the sponsors on the protests, you know, in New Orleans. I'm not seeing the Chamber of Commerce on there. You know, Right. In the past, business has actually been an ally in a lot of ways on the immigration issue. You mentioned the Trump lead. So this is in response to this terrible shooting in D.C. which I want to talk about, but I just want to read a little bit from it. I mean, I think obviously folks will have seen this, but just to set the table, these West Virginia National Guard soldiers who've been deployed to D.C. we're still in D.C. we're near the White House when they were shot by a Afghan Asylee, basically shooter was in the anti Taliban paramilitary force in Afghanistan. And so he had qualified for the program that allowed Afghans that basically helped us to come to America after the end of the Afghanistan war. This process started during Biden. He was actually approved for asylum during the Trump administration. I don't think that's going to be happening anymore. I want to talk about the actual murder and the National Guard soldiers, particularly Sarah Beckstrom, who died in a second. But to your point, on Trump's reaction, he writes, I will permanently pause migration from all third world countries, denaturalize migrants who undermine domestic tranquility, and deport any foreign national who's a public charge, security risk or non compatible with Western civilization. Those are two things that are just worth noting there. So we're going to get rid of the legal status of people that undermine domestic tranquility. So what could that be? That could literally be anything. That could be somebody that sends a tweet criticizing Trump or are posting a meme about Charlie Kirk. We've seen this. Or obviously commenting on the Israel war, like, like these are the types of things that potentially could lead to someone losing their green card status in the country. We've already seen it. And then we're going to deport people who are non compatible with Western civilization. To your point about the racial element of this, I did a little rant, but Scott Jennings over in the Bloor takes feed if people want to listen to that. But like, what are these guys even talking about anymore when they're talking about Western civilization? Like for a while it was talking about kind of like enlightenment ideology and you know, like our, our allies, you know, our, you know, with other western nations and like being democratic, I mean, like fighting for the west, had this meeting in like from the 80s till recently of, you know, like, you know, basically this sort of classically liberal ideology in our system of alliances and capitalism and trade. Trump's against all of that. Like Trump is trying to break down our western alliances and realy us with the Sharia law dictators and El Salvador and maybe Russia. Right. And so like, what do they mean when they say people are non compatible with Western civilization? I mean, it seems like basically that they're non white and that they're critical of this administration is essentially what they mean.
- [14:50]
Bill Kristol
Oh, totally, totally. It's really. I mean, this is this awful killing that he's using that excuse. And this guy apparently had some kind of psychotic breakdown basically. You know, his family's been worried about him. They tried to get him, I think, some counseling. It didn't work. He drove cross country. It's terrible what happened, obviously, but the idea that this is an indictment of Afghans who fought with us, well, it's pure demagoguery. What can you say? Right.
- [15:15]
Tim Miller
Well, and again, I just want to be really clear and obviously our listeners understand this, but you know, assholes clip all this. Like this person, this is so sick and unacceptable in all regards and there's just nothing that can be said. Mark Kirtland's piece was so good in the book. People should go read it about like, what this is going to do to the fellow members of the West Virginia National Guard and like his experience, like the tragedy of losing somebody like this who is just trying to serve the country. It is horrible what happened simultaneously to that. Like, we all speak. This is One of the rare things that people on the right and the left both agree on right now about the problem of mental health issues, like, for soldiers, like our soldiers, American soldiers that were serving in Iraq and Afghanistan and how to deal with that when they come home and, like, the challenges related to mental health services and all this. So it's like, there's this horrible war that went on for two decades in Afghanistan. Like, and a lot of people were helping us in. In that effort. The options that were facing us were like, abandon all of them and say, hey, thanks for the help. Screw you. Good luck with the Taliban, who, you know, who will end up treating all of you just horribly.
- [16:27]
Rocket Money Advertiser
They'll.
- [16:27]
Tim Miller
You'll be prisoned or killed or whatever. Like, so we can abandon all the people that helped us, which, you know, in the long term, what is that going to say about America? And, and, you know, when we ask a future nation to help us when national security is at stake, so we could abandon them, or we can, like, take the people that helped us, allow them to come here if they so choose, try to integrate, you know, integrate them into society, provide the services and, like, they're bad options. Like, they were bad. Like, those. That is it. Like, that is what you're left with. And obviously, a lot of folks we know Will Selber and our friends have been working with a lot of the Afghans that have come to America who are, like, great Americans who are working and going to. And for them all to be smeared because of this one guy's, like, mental break and his horrific actions is terrible and, like, worse than them being smeared is. Now you have Trump completely changing the policies to make our immigration policy closer to China than it is to what we've wanted in a free country. And so, like, these are just, like, the hard questions that, you know, everybody has to grapple with in a sensitive situation such as our leaving of Afghanistan. And, like, you know, look, you know, we all know what these guys are going to do about it, right? Which is just demagogue and, And. And use it to essentially eliminate anybody having the opportunity to come, to come to America for a better life. And so, you know, because they don't care about that.
- [17:54]
Bill Kristol
No, they. I mean, that's very clear, right? The Haitians, Stringfield, I always come back to that one, but it's the most obvious. There was no charge. They went to a town that was in decline. They've helped revive it. They were working hard, and they were attacked and made the object of demagoguery a year ago. A little over a year ago. And he now has, in fact, followed through and is going to pull, has pulled maybe temporary protected status from the Haitians and is going to try to deport them all. There's no accusation of anything there. Right. They don't have a higher crime rate. I mean, it's over. You know, it's all. They don't want them here. They do not want those people here. They don't want their kids here. They don't want the country to look a little browner and a little darker, and they don't want people from, quote, Third World countries, just the way a hundred years ago people didn't want Jews from Poland or Italians from southern Italy. And it's bigotry, and that's what it is. But the damage it's doing, I mean, A, it could be some of it should be stopped by Congress, but B, the damage it's doing to the social fabric, don't you think? Well, to the people themselves, of course, who are the objects of the bigotry and who now worry about their future. I mean, Trump is. But also in general to the social fabric. I mean, it's important to have a country that, where people have the incentive and the feeling they should try to work together and make this all work out, not the opposite.
- [19:08]
Tim Miller
Yeah. And JD like when he was at the Vatican after the Pope died, is doing an interview, I think it was with Ross Douthat, where he's talking about how we need to do this because of the social fabric. Right. Like, the social fabric of the country has already deteriorated. So this is all part of the rationale for this deportation regime and these new policies is keeping the country together. But, like, that's absurd on its face. Like, it's absurd on its face. It's based on this premise that, like, 10 years from now, if the country is a little bit whiter, then we're all going to get along better. Like, what is evidence for that? I mean, like, the a, like the political divide is maybe the starkest between, between whites in the country. I mean, like, if you just look at it and what we're doing now is, is going into these communities, terrorizing them. You know, we saw this in Charlotte, as I mentioned. We're saying in New Orleans now, people are scared to go to school, people are scared to get health services that, you know, engenders bitterness. Like that is doing the opposite. And then, and then taking this horrible tragedy in D.C. and, you know, making it about, okay, well, now we're going to take certain classes of people and attack them and otherwise, like that's what they're designed to do. Okay? Like if they want to advance their policy because that's their ideology, fine. But trying to wrap this in the idea that this is going to help the social fabric of the country is preposterous. So I should just say, because I meant to, Andrew Wolf was the other West Virginia National Guard guy that got shot. The latest update is for taping. This is that he was in critical condition, but things are looking better for him. So hopefully he comes out the other side of this. That's just one of these situations where it's like, it's so fraught because every element of it is bad. The shooter's actions just abominable, terrible. It's just a nightmare. The poor West Virginia National Guard soldiers, why were they in D.C. during Thanksgiving serving no real purpose? Trump's reaction to it, like the worst type of demagoguery. Me and Bill's podcast has been positive the last two weeks. Okay, people, so we're going to have to get into the muck a little bit today. Hey everybody. You wouldn't know it looking at my tan right now, but fall is in full swing and fall calls for comfort that you can count on. And our sponsor Mack Weldon's got all the essentials for fall. Comfortable, easy to layer clothes designed for cooler days and timeless style. Their new Ace line, inspired by their best selling sweatpants, combines everyday comfort with long lasting and confident looks. You can explore new hoodies, half zips, sweats, crew necks and more@mackweldon.com and get 20% off your first order of 125 bucks or more with the code the Bulwark. I have had to turn to some Mack Weldon to, you know, feel comfortable but also look good. Podcasting. You might have seen a, a black button up on me where I'm looking pretty sharp. And I've got some other stuff I'm eyeing, you know, because unfortunately I do have to leave the beach here soon and return to Washington D.C. and New York where it's looking chilly. I'll just say it's looking chilly and I'm going to need some Mack Weldon to keep me nice and warm. You should check it out too. Also for gifts, we're getting a Christmas season. You know, if you got a little kind of golf dad in your life that needs a little half zip, check out Mack Weldon, which is the go to choice for guys who want to look great without even trying. Their clothes are designed to fit your style. And the demands of modern life. They look like regular clothes, but they feel comfortable and they feel modern, not cheap. So fall into comfort with Mack Weldon's Ace collection. Go to mackweldon.com and get 20% off your first order of 125 bucks or more with promo code thebullwerker. That's M A C-K W-E-L--O-N.com, promo code the Bulwark. You began the newsletter today. Your newsletter with a great quote from the City of God, remove justice and what are kingdoms but gangs of criminals on a large scale, which is very relevant today. So I want to talk about our gangs of criminals and how we're acting across Venezuela, Russia pardons some other areas, but just want to talk a little bit about the newsletter and the big picture of this first.
- [23:17]
Bill Kristol
Yeah, I mean, we have, I guess, was provoked by the pretty obvious war crime that seems to have been committed, if the Washington Post reporting is to be believed and no one's really challenged it. Seriously, blowing up all these boats is probably a war crime or lawless, certainly, as even Andrew McCarthy of National Review says. But ordering a second strike to kill the two survivors, which seems to have happened is literally the definition of a war crime. It is the definition of a war crime in the Defense Department manual. Killing people in a shipwreck is sort of the quintessential thing you can't do, even if the original thing were lawful, which it probably wasn't so terrible that we did it.
- [23:53]
Tim Miller
It's notable for people who don't know Andrew McCarthy has been is a National Review, their legal writer, who was pretty generous to Trump, I would say, over the cases with regards to the impeachments. I think that's a nice way to put it. And I just think it's worth noting because I went and read it after you mentioned it to me, has been there is no caveat, there is no kind of talking around it. His description of what the the lawlessness of the government's actions in Venezuela before this report and then now with this killing of potentially reportedly two people that had survived the initial attack and then we just gathered them out of the water. Anyway, he was just abundantly clear about the illegality of it, which is noteworthy given where he's been before on Trump.
- [24:42]
Bill Kristol
Yeah, absolutely. And then of course, we have the normal financial crimes, money crimes, the grifting. I mean, it's so out of control. It's so massive. It's so many different people are now involved in so many different fronts. Some of it's now mixed up, maybe always was, but a little more obviously mixed up in key foreign policy decisions. So the Witkoff stuff with Russia influencing our Ukraine policy, obviously in the Middle east, we've seen that for quite a while. It's not just that they're getting rich, which is they shouldn't because it's against the law to do what they're doing, but also they're getting rich at the expense of our national interest of doing their duty as public servants, beginning with the president and all the way down. But the amount of it is really astounding. So that. That's upsetting. Then of course, there's the Epstein thing. We'll see if they continue to try to cover up those sex crimes. So we have money crimes, sex crimes, war crimes. It's a gang of criminals. I mean, I guess I somehow that St. Augustine quote occurred to me and then I kind of started to write the thing. You know, I write the Morning Shots, the newsletter mostly in the morning, but I collect material the night before I had so much stuff and I looked at it this morning, I thought I could go, I should probably go through all these things, you know, all the evidence of corruption, of criminality, of just shamelessness and grifting and conn. Their own supporters and so forth. And I didn't actually in the newsletter, but partly I just didn't have the energy at the time. It got too depressing. Almost like we were saying before, we were a little upbeat the last two weeks. We were upbeat because the wheels are coming off. And I think that is true incident. These two things can both be true. The wheels are kind of coming off and it's also getting worse. And which is going to happen first is a huge question. And also the other problem is if the wheels come off, if you want to torture this metaphor, you know, like an out of control bus careening across the American landscape and across the world, that's not a good thing either. So. But anyway, I think that's why we're sort of seem simultaneous. We seem slightly schizophrenic probably on this podcast, you know, because it is kind of an odd situation. But I mean, again, the degree of criminality. And I thought maybe I shouldn't use the term criminal. That's a little strong. I could say grifter and I could say this, but I mean, they are a gang of criminals and from the top down, and they're all complicit and the ones who aren't personally engaging in the grifts are complicit and legitimize. If you're in the White House counsel's office, you're letting all this happen. And I've lost all patience with the notion that some of them are better than others. Almost at this point, I feel like if you're part of it, you're part of it. And if you're in the Congress and doing nothing about it, you're kind of part of it too. So it's bad.
- [27:02]
Tim Miller
Hey man, I kind of feel like we should just leave the podcast there. It'd be a little bit of a short podcast, but that pretty much sums everything up. But why don't we do what you did not have the stomach to do in the newsletter, which is go through each of them one at a time briefly. In Venezuela, I think is the most striking one pun was not intended there. But as mentioned, reportedly Hegseth ordered that everybody be dead. In the first attack on the boat in the Caribbean, two people survived. They did a follow up strike, killing two people in the water. Heggs has been asked about this. He doesn't really answer. Trump's been asked about this. He doesn't really answer. They're not denying it. And then after kind of these media questions, Hex posts onto X a picture that is a spoof children's book titled Franklin Targets Narco Terrorists. And it features a turtle shooting a boat with a bazooka. And interestingly, the turtle appears to be missing the boat. The missile or whatever it is seems to be hitting just to the side of the boat, which is maybe kind of an apt metaphor because it seems like that might be what have actually happened, which is why we had to shoot a second time to kill the people that were at sea. But just like the childishness combined with the criminality I think is pretty noteworthy.
- [28:18]
Bill Kristol
It's unbelievable. I mean, did they get. Incidentally, that's a pretty popular children's series, right? The Franklin and became a TV series I think from the books and all this.
- [28:25]
Tim Miller
We're not big Franklin readers in our house. Yeah, I don't call it that.
- [28:28]
Bill Kristol
Well, it came out. I noticed I looked up for two seconds, mid-80s or something. So I don't really remember too well from our kids. But anyway, they should be suing or something. Not that it matters these days, I guess. Hag sister says the right.
- [28:40]
Tim Miller
I don't know. I'm pro suing. I was trying to goad Andrew Weissman into suing Trump on the podcast last week. Week, which I do think he should. That was not A bit.
- [28:47]
Bill Kristol
Right. It's a total defamation what he said, what Trump has said about him.
- [28:50]
Tim Miller
Yeah, right.
- [28:51]
Bill Kristol
Yeah. Hegseth is. I mean, it's juvenile. It's offensive. And say that first boat, the more you think about it, The World War I reads up the pictures in this idiotic cartoon sketch that Hegseth used AI to, or someone used AI to produce, has two or three, if I recall, drug smugglers in the boat and then a whole bunch of drugs. Like to show you, oh, they're smuggling drugs. This first boat had 11 people, which is why people from the beginning thought this probably wasn't really a drug boat. It's probably a human, you know, smuggling vote, which means some of the people in there were. People wanted to come to the US Were paid, I suppose, these traffickers to bring them or somewhere else, Trinidad or something. Yeah. And just got killed. And so it's even in a weird way, the. The stupid cartoon thing seems to suggest confirmation for the notion that this first boat was not even. Even if you think it's okay to blow them up, which it isn't, without any evidence and knowing who they are, these people really, really, really weren't okay to. To kill. So anyway, it's horrifying. They're not going to apologize. I don't know internally that they'll be held accountable. The whole JAG system has been gutted. This Justice Department, the degree to which we've depended on a Justice Department being willing, maybe sometimes a little cautious with its own administration, but willing to actually enforce law against people in the government. I mean, if that stops happening, what's left? I mean, who enforces the law? The president doesn't insist on it. The jags, DOD seems to have been gutted in terms of its internal checks and balances. Justice Department's not going to do anything. It's really a very bad. This is when you come back to Congress. Courts can do a little. You come back to Congress and this as in other areas. Now here we do have a little bit of congressional action. Right. The kind of joint statements by the Republican chairs and the ranking Democrats in both the Senate and House Armed Services Committee. So maybe a little hope that this is so shocking that maybe they will do something and maybe it'll remind them they can do a whole lot of other things as well.
- [30:43]
Tim Miller
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- [32:19]
Bill Kristol
I don't know if we do, actually. I think we said. Trump said we do. I read somewhere that there's still flights taking off. So I don't know.
- [32:25]
Tim Miller
Okay. The President of the United States is just kind of out there making claims that may or may not be accurate about our military actions related to Venezuela, which is potentially a no fly zone. Risky flights, I guess, flying through there. And it gets this question, like, what are we going to do? We plan on shooting planes out of the air. That was the implication of Trump's announcement. You know, maybe this is one of the fake things. This is part of the, what do they call it, the crazy man theory, where it's like, you know, you just have a president out there making random proclamations and, you know, seeing how people react to it. So we have a maybe, maybe not no fly zone over Venezuela. Scott Besant was out this is about a week ago now, but I don't think I talked about it worth mentioning. He made an aside comment on the Laura Ingram show when talking about inflation where he said if something happens down in Venezuela, maybe we can see oil prices come down even more. This is an interesting comment for the Treasury Secretary to make that maybe part of the inflation strategy is war in Venezuela where we take their oil and that decreases oil prices. I was reading this morning Matt Iglesias has a pretty interesting kind of piece about this potential war in Venezuela. And it's like I feel like I'm about as sympathetic as you could be to There was a quasi serious proposal going around for the last few years related to this, which was that it would benefit the US to help for there to be more stability obviously in Venezuela, for there to not be migrants. It would make us less reliant on Middle Eastern and Russian oil. And it's kind of all these arguments that you can maybe sell me as a, as a recuperating neocon on but like we're not doing any of these things, right? This is just a totally shoot from the hip. We're like shooting boats out of the sea and we've got random aircraft carriers around Venezuela and there's no plan. But I feel like we've been saying this in the podcast for like a month now, but I they're at least doing the things that they would do if they are planning on trying to overthrow Maduro. And I guess supposedly Trump talked to Maduro, Maduro over the weekend. Who knows about what?
- [34:31]
Bill Kristol
I still think Trump's aversion, the lesson he's learned that starting these wars doesn't work out well for presidents politically might be strong enough that it's all bluff and talk and he's going to then claim victory with Maduro and he will make some deal and maybe he will get access, he'll get us access to a lot of the oil or something like that. And then he'll forget of course entirely about the huge human rights violations and the refugees and everything else, all the other damage Maduro's doing to the country and decide, you know what, he can get along with Maduro just like he's getting along with every other dictator he runs into and can cut a deal with. So I don't know, it's so irresponsible, it's so reckless. The side effects in Latin America and elsewhere, the knock on effects could well be very damaging and we could stumble into A war which we are totally unprepared for and have no plan for that I know of apart from bombing a few places.
- [35:22]
Tim Miller
To your point about maybe it's just a straight kleptocracy deal that could very well be the outcome of this given the also reporting that we have from over the weekend weekend from the Wall Street Journal with regards to Russia and maybe that is what is undergirding his call with Maduro. This Journal piece which I'll put in the, in the show notes because it's just like really unbelievable. It's really. Yeah. It's just hard to even process like how we have reverted from the entire for all of the you know, mistakes and misjudgment calls the post World War II system. Like at the very least like we, we had a rules based order where leaders of all these countries were trying to make based on the best interests of people and make judgment calls and deal with threats. And there was no really thought that anyone from Eisenhower to Bush was cashing in on the side based on these deals. Not the case anymore. We're fully into spoil system kleptocracy foreign policy. The title of the article is Make Money Not War. Trump's Real plan for Ukraine. I'm just going to read one of the paragraphs. Gentry Beach, a college friend of Donald Trump Jr. And campaign donor has been in talks to our require a stake in Russian Arctic gas if it's released from sanctions. Another Trump donor, Stephen lynch, paid 600 grand this year to a lobbyist close to Trump Jr. Who is helping him seek a Treasury Department license to buy the Nord Stream 2 pipeline. We've discussed all the Witkoff family issues. I mean like they have completely intermingled questions about what to do with Ukraine with questions of how, how individuals in addition to America, they would argue America, but also specific individuals close to the administration can cash in and economically benefit from Russia.
- [37:11]
Bill Kristol
Yeah, they're selling out Ukraine which has been fighting bravely obviously against invasion by a dictator, brutal invasion of a dictator for the sake of their personal financial interest. I mean I hate to sound hysterical but it almost literally is the definition of treason. Right. I mean it's not treason. We're not fighting, it's Ukraine. So but it's, but it's still, still it's not for some mistaken view of Russia could be an important ally in the future and geopolitical blah blah, blah. Right. It's pure personal money.
- [37:40]
Tim Miller
Yeah. And again to their pitch the idea that the US Is going to benefit materially from Economic rapprochement with Russia is insane. It's insane, sure. On the margins. Could specific companies benefit and could some jobs be created? Russia is not providing. It's not like Nixon going to China. That's not what's happening here. If we're just being frank about the economic potential of this deal. So the one just little factoid in that article which I knew, but I didn't have the specific fact in my mind, and I think it's striking enough to mention Wyckoff is planning his sixth trip to Russia. Russia which is coming up here this month, where he plans to meet Putin again. He hasn't been to Ukraine. He hasn't been to Ukraine. It's like the, the main man, like the point man for this negotiation who has been like receiving awards from Putin and advancing Russian talking points, like, isn't even listening to the country that is our purported ally in this situation. Crazy.
- [38:57]
Bill Kristol
It's sickening really. I mean, it really is sickening. It's one thing for people, let's say, to make mistaken judgments about geopolitics at all. This is just selling out for personal financial gain.
- [39:08]
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- [40:11]
Tim Miller
Really quick on two other corruption things. I would make a mistake if I didn't mention there's New York Times article on David Ball sacks AIs are he is really mad about this, as are a lot of his friends in Silicon Valley. Because you know, basically people should read that whole article too. But the long and short of it is Sachs has a ton of investments. He has, I guess 449 stakes in companies with ties, ties to artificial intelligence. He is the point man for deregulating everything AI related. Folks in Silicon Valley and Sachs are basically saying, well this isn't a Tom Homan situation. Nobody's handed him 50 grand personally to carve out a specific deal for somebody. The New York Times didn't demonstrate any of that. It's just a broader story about how the AI Azar is point man is just mobbed up with all the big AI companies and on a very sensitive topic, but also has some geopolitical issues. For example, some now offering chips to UAE and Saudi who are maybe not the most reliable partners depending on what your belief is about the potential for the most highly productive chips. He's doing everything possible to kind of maximize the AI company's profits and potential and maximize the deal potential even with foreign despots without any sort of reins or limits on it. The AI guys say, well good, that's what we want because we want to win the competition. I think everybody else is like, I don't know, maybe shouldn't we have some balancing views? I'm not saying that we kill the industry, but should we really have a total shill from the industry who has literal financial stake in these companies being the point man on this? That notion is not appreciated among David and his friends in Silicon Valley.
- [42:04]
Bill Kristol
I've forgotten about Tom Holman. That's so old fashioned like getting $50,000 in cash in a paper bag. I mean it's so trivial compared to the degree of what's going on with the crypto stuff, the bitcoin stuff, the AI stuff. Someone has a good tracker of how much money the Trump family has made so far in the Trump second term and they're at 3 billion, $3 billion. So for Tom Homan, he's not small potato. I don't really feel bad for Tom Hoban on the way.
- [42:30]
Tim Miller
He should have a bitcoin home in cash, you know, and all this stuff.
- [42:35]
Bill Kristol
Is not just again that they're getting the money, but this damage they're doing to the system and to the country and to the world order. I mean to friends around world, it's really, it's really something else. And you know, I used to think on tariffs even like, well he's mistaken, he has a stupid economic theory and I guess that's true to some degree. And obviously he does believe in that, I guess. But so Much of that is also a grift. I mean it's all this is where I guess I've now lost any faith that anything they do is. I mean, the tax bill, at one point I would have said, well, that's just Reagan kind of, you know, tax theory taken to an extreme and foolish and so forth. But nonetheless you can see why they think it's good for the country. But I also think now the most simple minded, if I can put it this way, neo Marxist explanation is probably correct that you know what, they want more money, so they passed a tax bill that gives them more money.
- [43:23]
Tim Miller
I don't think this. And you know, just to make the libs mad who listen, I should say that the top tax rate is like 40% lower than it was during the Reagan tax bill in 81. So there's some reasons to maybe not do the Reagan tax policy now different from 1981. But anyway, one other corruption story, I don't know if there'll be much to say about this, but just want to make sure that everybody's seen it. Donald Trump granted clemency to private equity executive David Gentile. I hate, he's smearing my people, the Gentiles. David Gentile had just begun a seven year prison sentence for what prosecutors described as a $1.6 billion fraud scheme. He was the founder of GPB Capital and he had been in jail for 12 days when he was granted clemency. This is also, you know, one of these frauds that like there were actual victims. Right. It's not one of these things where there was a fraud where it was like he kind of lied about the valuation of his company and like it's hard to find a real. That's not the case here. Like people got screwed over by this guy. And straight clemency after 12 days. I'm sure it was a real rough 12 days in the Ghislaine Maxwell prison for the guy.
- [44:38]
Bill Kristol
Yeah. And God knows what money is trading hands with various family members and other friends to make this one happen. And the Honduran one that Ant wrote about, they promised to pardon the former Honduran president who was convicted in the US of financial crimes. I mean, this is not like, oh, maybe he got railroaded in some third world country, you know, and he's been, I guess promised pardon to promise clemency. And that turns out all to be, I thought at one point that was maybe he just liked him because he was a fellow kind of authoritarian right winger, which is true also. But it turns out there's a big financial connection there with some of Trump supporters.
- [45:17]
Tim Miller
Right.
- [45:17]
Bill Kristol
And it's all about bitcoin and stuff. I couldn't even follow it. It's so complicated.
- [45:22]
Tim Miller
I was going to save this one because it hasn't happened yet. But just as a little teaser for people, because we'll get into it more later the week. The nuts of the story here is that the leader of Honduras was working with Peter Thiel and Mark Andreessen and others on what seems to be kind of an onshore version of seasteading. Steel was very big into seasteading when there would be, like, a community on the sea that did not have to follow the laws of free countries. And that cryptocurrency would be how they traded money. And it would be legal to do twink blood injections or whatever else Peter Thiel wants to do outside the bounds of US Rules, and he's going to do it on the sea. The Honduran president was like, why don't we create a city here in Honduras? And for this type of community, there's big investment there from the other libertarian Silicon Valley types simultaneously. Honduran president was doing a lot of drug trafficking. I thought the administration supposedly is really harsh on drug trafficking. That's why we're bombing boats out of the Caribbean. This guy was doing drug trafficking, among other crimes. He gets indicted here in America. And, yeah. Now the plan is for him to be part of it. We'll see how that shakes out. There's a Honduran election, I think today.
- [46:35]
Bill Kristol
Yesterday, I think last night. I think it's unclear who's won. I don't really know much about it, but, you know, I forgot. I think I'm. Thank you for the correction. Side said financial, but he's. He was indicted and convicted here for. For drug smuggling, basically. Massive, massive amounts of cocaine.
- [46:48]
Tim Miller
Yes.
- [46:48]
Bill Kristol
And so that's. Yeah. Trump really cares a lot about that. Allegedly. Right?
- [46:52]
Tim Miller
Yeah.
- [46:52]
Bill Kristol
Very deep.
- [46:52]
Tim Miller
Very deep.
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- [48:55]
Tim Miller
Speaking of elections, I should also mention we have the Tennessee special tomorrow with Afton Bain who is running in one of these preposterous districts around Nashville where they pizza Nashville into three or four districts where you have like we got one third of Nashville and then it goes all the way out to rural Tennessee. All of those districts are pretty big stretches for the Democrats. This one was maybe depending on who you talk to and what you would rather prefer, whether you want the kind of the more suburban upper middle class Nashville types or whether you want some of the more colleges I think in HBCU and more kind of black voters in her district. So both of them are like Republican plus 20. Pretty big stretch but who the hell knows off off your election that's tomorrow. If you have friends in Nashville, call them and see if they're in the, the, in that part of the pizza. Make sure they're voting. Finally, let's end on something happy. Not happy. Not happy. Happy is not the right word. Let's end on something that we can all just kind of watch with a bemused detachment, and that is Donald Trump's physical standing. I don't know if you have any thoughts on this. We had a listener sent me a photo from a friend who was at a Mar A Lago wedding. And it was a picture of Trump which we'll put on screen for the YouTube viewers. Looking horrible. I did verify this was posted on an, on an Instagram slides. It's not AI. There's like a various slides. I saw the other pictures and he looks very bad without his makeup on. Like, he really should just get the makeup tattooed on his face so he's permanently orange because he looks. And as bad as the orange looks, he looks horrible with his actual skin. And then we talk about this on the next level, but there's this video of him walking outside the one White House where he's really laboring to walk.
- [50:47]
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- [50:48]
Tim Miller
I've been reluctant to be the, you know, Trump. Like, Trump is deteriorating person. Like, in a lot of ways, for me, Trump has been like, decently similar from how he was 10 years ago, always a little bit crazy. But I, I don't know. So I'm opening up to you, Bill Kristol, as somebody who is, you know, in Trump's generation. What are you maybe see the signs among your friend, among your peers? Are you seeing anything that you see from others in your peer group? I wonder.
- [51:17]
Bill Kristol
I'm going to pretend I didn't even hear that question, but I am going to, finally. The only thing I'm going to say is, I mean, I think he probably is declining somewhat. The thing about the corruption, just so we can get back is it's so widespread, though, that among him and in the movement, if you. Or among his supporters. We were talking about some of the tech guys, but obviously not just tech guys. The energy guys, everyone. I don't know. What if he goes away? Well, Vance is more ideological, which is both good and bad, obviously, in some ways. But I don't know, I feel like the whole, the whole thing is now so permeated. I don't the right way to say it, that even if Trump is removed from it, plopped away, it's got to chug on for its own Sake. None of them could afford to let it stop. You know what I mean?
- [51:59]
Tim Miller
Right.
- [52:00]
Bill Kristol
First, incidentally, they can't. This is a big, big, big problem. They can't afford to really have honest elections in 2028 because what if they. They lose power? Then what happens to all their deals and all their corrupt. Well, everything they've done that's corrupt, that could look. Be looked into. And also going forward, everything starts to fall apart. So I think the degree to which we now have, if this gets permitted to go on much longer, we have way beyond a Trump problem. We have sort of a systemic problem almost that it is. If Putin left tomorrow, I suppose there'd be a fight over his heirs. It'd be less dangerous, probably. It'd be a little better, probably. But the chances of an actual Democrat, Democrat suade winning as opposed to just one faction or another of the kleptocratic dictatorial, autocratic cabal, probably not so great. So that's, I guess that's. I don't know. That's my. Okay.
- [52:48]
Tim Miller
Thanks for bringing us back down, Fox. The way Trump walked.
- [52:51]
Bill Kristol
Sorry about that.
- [52:52]
Tim Miller
He is walking very strange. He did that nice putt. Fox News did a. Fox News released a single video of Trump's golf match, which was kind of a chip putt that he made from the fringe. So it was an interesting editorial choice by Fox and Brett Baer, who is in the foursome and who is cheering very excitedly. And I pointed this out on social media and some of the Trump fans are saying, this is just what bros do when they golf. I was like, is that really true? Do news anchors golfing with presidents, golfing with lawless presidents usually jump for joy when they make a putt? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. It feels a little close for comfort for me. One man's opinion.
- [53:31]
Bill Kristol
Look at the bright side, Tim. Your friend Jennings was this Scott Jennings. Think how unhappy he was that Brett Baer was there golfing and showing true fealty by jumping with joy when it could. Scott is thinking, that could have been me. It would have helped me so much in all my efforts and endeavors. And instead he's salting Brett Bear. Brett Bear's ahead of him in line.
- [53:51]
Tim Miller
You know, I should know. Brett did barely kind of make it off the ground, but he's trying to jump. Okay, the serious thing. I did want to end with one serious thing because you left me with an interesting thought that I just kind of want to leave for mull over. I do think that once we get into maybe next year, as early as the midterms, but certainly 2028 tech world is going to try to cut a deal with the Democrats to solve this corruption problem that you're saying. And there's going to be a lot of pressure from the big CEOs, the big platforms, the guys with big megaphones to say Democrats, okay, if you just chill out on us, if you don't go after us so hard, we're creating a lot of jobs, we're creating a lot of wealth in the country. We'll come back into the fold. Right? This was just a little Valiants and I don't know, we're looking at some of these weirdos coming behind Trump and I don't know if we can deal with them quite as well. And that is going to be, I think, an interesting judgment call, that we're going to see different Democrats fall on different sides of that line over the next few years. Despite being mostly, I would be smeared by the leftists who follow this. As a corporatist Democrat, besides being basically a capitalist Democrat on this one issue, I feel like I might end up finding myself on the side of the populace because I think going at these guys and not being susceptible to their siren song is probably the right way to go. But I don't know that it's 100% clear judgment call. So anyway, that's something I'll leave people with. Do you have any thoughts on that or should we just let that hang?
- [55:20]
Bill Kristol
Oh, that's interesting. We should discuss that over the next year or two.
- [55:24]
Tim Miller
Year or two.
- [55:25]
Bill Kristol
I'm also ambivalent. We could be sort of populist, free market types, but not think that the AI guys should get special deals. I guess that would be the way to square the circle somehow. But who can? Who? I don't know who's going to embrace that among the Democratic Party. But the one point I will make, though, I've become convinced this is an A.P. stoddard, our former colleague and who's doing fine. And I had lunch with her this week. She's absolutely convinced of this, that being anti anti is too strong, being skeptical of AI being for regulating it, being serious about it, not just giving them everything. She's absolutely convinced that'll be the winning message in the Democratic primary in 28 and that it's a good issue for people to educate themselves on for these candidates and the rest of us as well, and it'll be a big issue. Do you agree with that? I was struck she made this case to be pretty convincing. I hadn't really thought about it much honestly.
- [56:11]
Tim Miller
I think it might be and we should get AB back on the podcast. It's been too long. We can have her make it to the listeners. So AB will be calling. Bill Kristol, appreciate you very much. Everybody else, I'll be back in my home studio tomorrow in New Orleans, so come back and hang out with me then. Peace.
- [56:31]
Bill Kristol
Be back home. I'm so glad we back home. I'm so glad.
- [57:20]
Musical Guest / Outro
Music right here. How they had us on that bridge so let's get it how we lit us why we did what we did When I lost my city almost lost my mind in and out of hotels feel like I'm doing time please Mr. Officer don't shoot Cause I ain't ain't this I was stuck up on that roof Ain't trying to make an excuse but they running from the truth we know they blew them levers man but we ain't got no proof Whatever they do I can't turn my back I was born right righteous or righteous where I'm at send them troops home the d and tell FEMA we going to need more than 10 stacks wherever you at SA to the Cali yo one time do it big H town all the way to the A We appreciate the love of my people can't stay we the.
- [58:37]
Tim Miller
The Borg Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
- [58:46]
Rocket Money Advertiser
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