The Bulwark Podcast: Bill Kristol – A Kleptocratic, Autocratic Cabal

Date: December 1, 2025
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Bill Kristol

Episode Overview

In this episode, Tim Miller and Bill Kristol dive deep into the intensifying themes of corruption, authoritarianism, and anti-immigrant policies defining the current Trump era. Their discussion spans the brutal expansion of federal immigration crackdowns, escalating war crimes and kleptocracy in foreign policy, and the worrying entanglement of business and government at home. The show pulls no punches in characterizing the Trump administration and its enablers as a “gang of criminals”—with Kristol invoking St. Augustine to frame a U.S. government that now blurs the line between state and mafia.

While focusing on the alarming radicalization of law and policy, the hosts highlight personal stories, the human cost of these policies, cracks emerging among Republicans, and the possible role of civic resistance. Throughout, both maintain a tone of exasperated realism mixed with flashes of dark humor.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Immigration Crackdown & the Radicalization of Policy

[02:12-09:38]

• Tim Miller introduces local New Orleans context: plans for a Border Patrol “invasion” and protests in response.

• Miller relays real-life consequences: businesses closing, patients skipping dialysis for fear of ICE.

  • “There’s just so few people that are for this. To your point about the...political argument for it is, is crazy.” (Tim Miller, 05:16)

• Bill Kristol outlines his grave concerns:

  • The agenda has shifted from targeting criminals to mass “remigration”—the expulsion of up to 53 million “foreigners.”
  • Policies are becoming more “lawless and brutal,” with ICE and Border Patrol receiving billions in new funding.
  • Possible congressional intervention: Kristol laments Congress’s inaction but insists they “can control this.”
    • “Congress can put all kinds of rules in place on use of ICE, use of Border Patrol... I feel I was silly saying Congress, Congress, Congress...But things do change.” (Bill Kristol, 06:13, 11:53)

• Miller shares harrowing individual cases—like a 19-year-old college student deported, and Kristi Noem’s admission of deporting Venezuelans against a judge’s order—underscoring systemic cruelty and legal violations.

Notable Quote

• “It is depraved. That's a good word for it, unfortunately. I mean, really unfortunately, that this is happening in this country and these are not marginal cases.” (Bill Kristol, 09:38)

2. The Racial, Authoritarian, and Demagogic Dimensions

[09:38-19:07]

• Trump’s rhetoric after a tragic DC shooting (by an Afghan asylee) is dissected:

  • Miller quotes Trump’s pledge to "denaturalize" migrants undermining “domestic tranquility” and to deport those “non compatible with Western civilization.”
  • The hosts point out the racial and authoritarian dog whistles, with “Western civilization” framed as code for “non-white, non-loyal.”
    • “What do they mean when they say people are non compatible with Western civilization? I mean, it seems like basically that they're non-white and that they're critical of this administration.” (Tim Miller, 13:54)

• The DC shooting context:

  • Both hosts agree it’s a tragedy, but Trump's use of the event for sweeping policy changes is condemned as “pure demagoguery.”
  • Miller connects the broader move to target all Afghans and others, gutting humanitarian priorities—even for those who helped the US.

Memorable Moment

• “Now you have Trump completely changing the policies to make our immigration policy closer to China than it is to what we’ve wanted in a free country.” (Tim Miller, 16:26)

3. Social Fabric, Protest, and the Limits of Resistance

[17:54-23:16]

• Kristol highlights the damage to America’s social fabric and sense of national community:
  • The policy isn’t rooted in evidence about social cohesion; terrorizing immigrant communities breeds alienation and fear.
    • “It’s important to have a country where people have the incentive and the feeling they should try to work together and make this all work out, not the opposite.” (Bill Kristol, 18:56)
• Miller notes the historical absurdity of claiming “whitening” the country will solve polarization.

Notable Quote

• “It’s based on this premise that, like, 10 years from now, if the country is a little bit whiter, then we're all going to get along better. Like, what is evidence for that?” (Tim Miller, 19:07)

4. War Crimes, Venezuela, and the ‘Kleptocratic Cabal’

[23:16-30:43]

• Kristol brings up “the pretty obvious war crime” committed in Venezuela, echoed even by conservative legal analysts.

  • Ordering a second strike to kill survivors after destroying a boat is “literally the definition of a war crime in the Defense Department manual.”
  • The cover-up and lack of accountability, coupled with juvenile social media posts mocking the violence, underline the administration’s “childishness combined with criminality.”
    • “But ordering a second strike to kill the two survivors...is literally the definition of a war crime...It is the definition of a war crime in the Defense Department manual.” (Bill Kristol, 23:16)

• Miller: The administration’s foreign policy is not just reckless, but deeply unserious—possibly using a “crazy man theory,” threatening a Venezuela no-fly zone for political theater.

5. Corruption, Grifting, and Sellouts—Home & Abroad

[30:43-39:08]

• The hosts detail how foreign policy is now entangled with personal enrichment:

  • Wall Street Journal reporting on Trump associates scheming for Russian gas and pipeline deals if sanctions are lifted.
  • Witkoff, a close Trump donor and proxy, is negotiating with Russia directly, meeting Putin repeatedly, but hasn’t visited Ukraine.
    • “They have completely intermingled questions about what to do with Ukraine with questions of...how individuals...can cash in and economically benefit from Russia.” (Tim Miller, 37:10)

• Kristol: It approaches “the definition of treason,” but even absent wartime, it’s a wholesale sellout of American interests for personal profit.

  • “It's sickening really. I mean, it really is sickening...This is just selling out for personal financial gain.” (Bill Kristol, 38:56)

6. Corruption on the Home Front: AI ‘Czars’ and Clemency for Fraud

[40:10-46:47]

• Miller describes the New York Times investigation into David Sacks, the AI deregulation czar with nearly 450 stakes in AI companies.

  • His policies benefit industry giants and foreign autocracies alike; tech allies argue this simply ensures ‘winning’ the AI race.

• Kristol lampoons the old-style cash bribes as “trivial” compared to the billions now passing between Trump's family, allies, and business community.

  • “Someone has a good tracker of how much money the Trump family has made so far in the Trump second term and they're at...$3 billion.” (Bill Kristol, 42:29)

• Discussion of Trump’s granting clemency to David Gentile—a private equity executive imprisoned for a $1.6B fraud—underscores the normalization of grift. They preview further corruption involving Honduras, Peter Thiel’s “seasteading,” and cryptocurrency-plans amid drug trafficking.

7. Reflections on Systemic Rot & What Comes After Trump

[51:16-53:50]

• The hosts reflect on how “the whole thing is now so permeated”—the Trump ecosystem is a self-sustaining corruption machine that will not simply end with his departure.

  • “Even if Trump is removed from it, plopped away, it's got to chug on for its own sake. None of them could afford to let it stop.” (Bill Kristol, 51:59)

• Miller speculates the tech world will seek deals with Democrats to protect their interests in the post-Trump era; he urges holding the line against corporate seduction.

• Kristol agrees, promoting a healthy skepticism toward unfettered tech-industry power—a message he predicts will be successful for Democrats going forward.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|------------|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 05:16 | Tim Miller | “There’s just so few people that are for this...the political argument for it is, is crazy.” | | 09:38 | Bill Kristol| “It is depraved...that this is happening in this country and these are not marginal cases.” | | 11:53 | Bill Kristol| “Congress can put all kinds of rules...I feel I was silly saying Congress, Congress, Congress...But things do change.” | | 13:54 | Tim Miller | “What do they mean when they say people are non compatible with Western civilization? ...basically that they're non-white and that they're critical of this administration.”| | 16:26 | Tim Miller | “Now you have Trump completely changing the policies to make our immigration policy closer to China than ...a free country.”| | 18:56 | Bill Kristol| “It’s important to have a country where people have the incentive and the feeling they should try to work together…”| | 19:07 | Tim Miller | “It’s based on this premise that...if the country is a little bit whiter, then we’re all going to get along better...what is evidence for that?”| | 23:16 | Bill Kristol| “Ordering a second strike to kill the two survivors...is literally the definition of a war crime in the Defense Department manual.”| | 37:10 | Tim Miller | “They have completely intermingled questions about what to do with Ukraine with...how individuals...can cash in and economically benefit from Russia.”| | 38:56 | Bill Kristol| “It's sickening really...This is just selling out for personal financial gain.” | | 42:29 | Bill Kristol| “Someone has a good tracker of how much money the Trump family has made so far...they're at $3 billion.” | | 51:59 | Bill Kristol| “Even if Trump is removed from it...it's got to chug on for its own sake. None of them could afford to let it stop.”|

Important Timestamps

• [02:12] – Podcast begins, Tim Miller & Bill Kristol check in; immigration enforcement in New Orleans
• [03:46-05:16] – Miller on local fallout, real-life stories of ICE crackdowns
• [09:38] – “It is depraved...” (Kristol on mass deportations and policy shift)
• [13:54] – Miller on Trump’s “Western civilization” rhetoric as code
• [16:26] – Trump uses DC shooting as pretext; “closer to China” (Miller)
• [23:16] – Venezuela war crimes and St. Augustine quote (“gangs of criminals”)
• [37:10] – Wall Street Journal on Russia, Ukraine, Trump cronies
• [42:29] – Kristol on $3B in Trump family enrichment; old vs. new corruption
• [46:47] – Honduras, Peter Thiel, and the “seasteading” corruption nexus
• [51:16-53:50] – Will removing Trump fix the system? (Hint: “No.”)

Language & Tone

• The hosts are blunt, informed, and deeply critical, but sprinkle in gallows humor to leaven the gravity.
• Tone alternates between exasperation, moral outrage, and the wry cynicism of veteran political analysts who have covered “crazy” for too long.
• Both maintain their signature blend of facts, policy analysis, and cutting through “both-sides” equivocation with unapologetic clarity.

Summary for New Listeners

This episode provides a sweeping and sobering account of how anti-immigrant extremism, corruption, and authoritarianism have left American institutions battered—and why neither policy nor accountability will improve unless Congress, business, and citizens confront the kleptocratic cabal at the nation’s helm. Kristol and Miller weave together the personal and the geopolitical, refusing to let listeners lose sight of the human toll beneath the headlines. If you want to understand how corruption, bigotry, and “gangster government” now overlap—and why American democracy’s future may hinge on what happens in Congress, tech, and the streets—this is a must-listen episode.