The Bulwark Podcast: Bill Kristol and Jane Fonda - The New 'Fierce Urgency of Now'

Date: October 6, 2025
Host: Tim Miller
Guests: Bill Kristol, Jane Fonda

Episode Overview

This doubleheader episode of The Bulwark Podcast zeroes in on the rising clash between rule of law and creeping authoritarianism in the United States, amid real-time constitutional crisis moments and an emboldened Trump administration. In the first half, Bill Kristol joins for an in-depth analysis of the legal, political, and cultural fallout from the administration's unprecedented use of military force in U.S. cities. In the second segment, iconic activist and actor Jane Fonda discusses her relaunch of the Committee for the First Amendment and the pressing need for trans-partisan resistance to authoritarianism—to evoke, in her words, the "fierce urgency of now."

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Rule of Law vs. The Rule of Trump (Bill Kristol, 00:00–25:11)

The Chicago and Portland Crisis

• The crisis centers on Trump deploying federal agents, and now National Guard troops, in Democratic-led cities like Chicago and Portland, even against the wishes of state and local officials.
  • Gov. Pritzker of Illinois labeled it "Trump's invasion" ([05:04] B).
  • Oregon Judge Karin Immergut—Trump-appointed—blocked the federal deployment, emphasizing longstanding limits on using military force against civilians:

    "Furthermore, this country has a long-standing and foundational tradition of resistance to government overreach, especially in the form of military intrusion into civil affairs." ([06:23] B)

MAGA Reaction & Caesarism

• Kristol identifies a shift from judicial deference to open advocacy of presidential "Caesarism":
  • Steve Miller asserts that "the president is commander in chief of the armed forces, not an Oregon judge" ([09:24] B).
  • Kristol warns:

    "They're not saying he's commander in chief in the context of war abroad...they're saying he is commander in chief here in the U.S., without regard to law, tradition, or even the Constitution." ([08:22] A)

• Miller and Kristol connect this to historic moments when authoritarian regimes seized on emergencies to consolidate power (e.g., Hitler and the Reichstag Fire, [13:53] B).

Provocation, Violence, and the "Reichstag Fire" Analogy

• Both hosts argue federal authorities are actively provoking violent incidents to justify escalation: > "ICE is provoking violence at this point. ICE has committed a lot more violent acts than the people protesting." ([15:16] A)

Quotes:

• "We're now at a different point...than we were maybe a month ago. Now we really have the real moment of crisis." – Bill Kristol ([05:17] A)
• "They're saying the quiet part loud—it's dictatorship, basically." – Tim Miller ([09:11] B)

2. Media, Shutdown Politics, and the Role of Resistance (00:00–25:11)

The Government Shutdown Fight

• Democrats are handling the shutdown with a focus on healthcare, but Miller and Kristol say the core fight is really about lawlessness and authoritarian governance.
  • Kristol:

    "Don't Democrats need to say, in light of new circumstances, that they will not vote to fund an administration that's trying to impose martial law at home and start unauthorized wars abroad?" ([21:09] B)

• The hosts discuss the importance of connecting legal, political, and popular (grassroots) resistance as mass protests (like the upcoming "No Kings" rally) are planned.

The New Authoritarian Rhetoric

• Trump's inappropriate speech to Navy sailors, using rally language and attacks on Democrats, is highlighted:

  "We have to take care of this little gnat that's on our shoulder called the Democrats." ([27:17] B) "The oath they take is to the Constitution, not to him." – Kristol ([29:22] A)

Notable Quote:

• "There's a natural support for authoritarianism out there...bad ideas can have momentum, unfortunately, almost as much as good ideas." – Bill Kristol ([34:29] A)

3. The Democratic Bench & Party Strategy (Spanberger, Georgia, etc.) ([35:54] B onwards)

• Discussion on Democratic candidates and the need for higher standards in nominations.
• Debate over whether ex-Republican Jeff Duncan can win as a Democrat in Georgia, and the implications of broadening the Democratic tent to include former GOP officials with integrity.

Quotes:

• "Democrats want to win...there are certainly ideologically motivated Democrats, but there are also Democrats who really, if you're in Georgia and you look at Brian Kemp's last years...: 'I would like somebody that will...put in place a more reasonable restriction when it comes to abortion.'" ([42:07] B)
• On Jeff Duncan’s candidacy: "He should be praised for doing it. And if he loses, he should still be praised for doing it." – Bill Kristol ([41:32] A)

4. Jane Fonda & The Committee for the First Amendment (Segment starts at [46:43] C)

Reanimating Her Father's Legacy

• Fonda relaunches the Committee for the First Amendment, first founded during the McCarthy era to defend free speech in Hollywood ([48:00] C).

  "Even if you didn't agree with each other, you knew that you each had the right to speak what you felt without danger...If we lose that, our fathers and grandfathers fought wars to protect that right." – Jane Fonda ([47:26] C)

Free Speech Under Threat

• Touches on the FBI firing an agent for having a pride flag and Apple removing an app to warn neighborhoods of ICE agents as symptoms of authoritarian suppression.

  "It's all to scare people." – Fonda ([52:28] C)

• Fonda emphasizes the urgent timeline:

  "Historically, it takes 18 to 22 months for an authoritarian to consolidate power. Once that happens, it's very hard to defend democracy after that. That's why there's an urgency." ([51:18] C)

Unity Across Political Lines & Nonviolent Resistance

• Fonda repeatedly stresses the importance of unity: "We have to get together and unify now across the political spectrum." ([51:51] C)
• Advocates for mass action—strikes, boycotts—alongside protests, all strictly nonviolent:

  "The ticket to success is nonviolent, but we can have fun...We're creators, right? We're storytellers. So we can show—we can model for the rest of the country—creative, nonviolent, noncooperation." ([54:44] C)

Overcoming Demonization

• Fonda reflects on her own past vilification ("Hanoi Jane") and the power of meeting the real person:

  "If people knew where my heart was, they wouldn't think I was Hanoi Jane. My heart is with working people." ([59:06] C)

• Expresses hope in activism and the ability of action to bring optimism:

  "Listen, you're looking at a very hopeful person. And that's because I'm active." ([54:29] C)

Notable Exchange:

• Tim Miller: "Maybe it's the henchmen, or maybe they were all full of shit on the free speech thing." ([53:00] B)
• Jane Fonda: "This is the playbook that we're confronting here. And this has never happened to us before...So we have to gird our loins." ([53:14] C)

Connecting with a New Generation

• Fonda shares that she still hears from people who believed the old smears about her, but more are coming around, especially veterans. She encourages engagement outside echo chambers, telling about her antiwar organizing in middle America during the Vietnam era ([60:20] C).

Final Thoughts

• Fonda emphasizes that the Committee is not about building an organization but a rapid, creative, united movement to confront authoritarianism.
• She and Miller joke about an unlikely alliance with Bill Kristol and the Weekly Standard era, driving home the gravity and urgency of the present moment transcending old divisions ([64:08] C).

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• "We're now at a different point...Now we really have the real moment of crisis." – Bill Kristol ([05:17] A)
• "They're saying the quiet part loud—it's dictatorship, basically." – Tim Miller ([09:11] B)
• "The oath they take is to the Constitution, not to him." – Bill Kristol ([29:22] A)
• "Once [an authoritarian] consolidates power...it's very hard to defend democracy after that." – Jane Fonda ([51:18] C)
• "If you want to be hopeful, do hopeful things." – Jane Fonda ([54:36] C)
• "We can have fun. And I mean, we're creators, right? We're storytellers. So we can...model for the rest of the country creative, nonviolent, noncooperation." – Jane Fonda ([54:44] C)

Important Segment Timestamps

• [00:13] Show kickoff, new staff (Catherine Rampel), Bill Kristol intro
• [04:05] Discussion of Chicago/Portland military deployments
• [05:17] Rule of law vs. "Rule of Trump"
• [09:22] MAGA justification for using military force
• [13:53] "Reichstag Fire moment" analogy and implications
• [21:09] Democrats' response to shutdown/authoritarian escalation
• [27:17] Trump’s political speech to sailors & consequences
• [46:43] Jane Fonda segment: Committee for the First Amendment, uniting the left and right, history of activism
• [51:18] Danger of rapid consolidation of authoritarian power
• [54:36] "If you want to be hopeful, do hopeful things."

Tone & Takeaways

The episode is urgent, frank, and occasionally wry—anchored in the seriousness of the moment, but drawing on the guests’ experience and conviction that principled, united action can still preserve democracy. Fonda’s activism and optimism, combined with Kristol’s constitutional focus, signals broad-based resistance as paramount, while Miller anchors the discussion in the nitty-gritty of current events and politics. The mood is of resolve and warning, but also hope.

For listeners:

• The episode makes clear the stakes of current constitutional crises, demystifies the legal basics, and ties personal stories to political strategy.
• The call to action—cross-partisan, creative, and nonviolent—is both practical and urgent for anyone concerned about the direction of the country.

End of summary.