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Charlie Sykes
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Charlie Sykes
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Charlie Sykes
Hello and welcome to the Bowler podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We have another Monday doubleheader, and segment two is going to be Trump's former attorney, Ty Cobb. And I just want to tell you in case there are any worries, because at our live shows, I received a lot of positive feedback about Bill Kristol. Mondays, people love it. And so this is not me just sort of trying to usher him off to the side slowly but surely. She says we had two weeks in her of Jane Fonda and Trump's former lawyer. Want to talk on Monday. We're going to talk on Monday. And so it's a little bit of an exception. I'm excited to talk to Ty Cob, but we are going to give you plenty of Bill Kristol time. Don't you worry.
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Bill Kristol
I'm happy to share the spotlight and the burden. You know, I don't want to have everything, everything depending on me on Monday. That would be bad, you know?
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Charlie Sykes
Yeah, I know you don't mind, but the people, the people mind. They want to hear from you.
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Bill Kristol
How did the shows go? I wasn't there. New York, Saturday night.
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Charlie Sykes
They were great. I was better on Saturday. So folks listened to the Wednesday show and thought maybe I'd won too many pops. That happens. But Saturday really was good. I thought it was great to have Kathryn Rampel out there to welcome her to the, to the team. And it was wonderful to see everybody. So thanks, everybody for coming out. And Bill, hopefully we have enough time at the end to rehash the pieing. I forgot that you got pied. So we're going to try to get to that at the end.
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Ty Cobb
That's okay.
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Bill Kristol
You know, that's one of those. I think we need to get to Ty Cobb, frankly.
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Charlie Sykes
So before we get to the.
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Bill Kristol
We don't need to really go about my. The cream pie attack on me. 20.
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Charlie Sykes
I think we might have to talk about it. But first, we have a bunch of news across the world and the country this morning. We have officially the hostage release. 20 remaining living hostages leaving Gaza. Some of the images are really moving and a lot to bear. It's worth noting it's all men. None of the women hostages survived, which I guess shouldn't be surprising, which is sad. But there's something to be said for it. We talked about this a little bit with Sam Stein on Thursday. Obviously, this is just one step in the process, but it's an important step. I was just wondering what your reactions are.
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Bill Kristol
I mean, very mixed. Danny Gordes, Daniel Gordes, who writes a good newsletter from Israel, moderate, I'd say, in the Israeli political spectrum, grew up here as a young man, has a very moving newsletter today about the mixture of incredible joy and they've been two years waiting for these hostages and following them, but also, of course, terrible sadness. I mean, the ones who were killed, to say nothing of the people killed on October 7, to say nothing of the 915 soldiers killed in the Gaza operation, to say nothing of the tens of thousands of Palestinians killed. So, I mean, it's really a, it's been a rough two years. You know, I think everyone in that area and everyone who cares about anyone in that area, and it's great, it's good that there's a ceasefire. It's great that the hostages are back. Hopefully Gaza can get rebuilt. And. But it's better than the hostages being in captivity and the bombing going on, but an awful long way to go to get to something more solid and achievable.
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Charlie Sykes
Yeah, Jared Kushner has brought peace to the Middle East. Victory lap feels a little bit. A little early, you know, as far as what is actually yet to happen. But I don't know. I'm going to have more on this tomorrow with one of our, one of our guests. We have another doubleheader tomorrow, so get ready, everybody. Back here in Chicago, the president's invasion, I guess whatever you want to call it, military occupation of one of the biggest American cities continues to pace. There's been some blocking from judges of the administration's ability to send troops both into Oregon and Chicago. There's obviously the local politicians, JB Pritzker and others have been standing up and opposing this. And so one of the pieces, scuttlebutt that's been going around is that President Trump might declare, you know, use the Insurrection act to kind of get around these legal hurdles to his desired end game. J.D. vance was on Meet the Press this weekend. I was going to play the audio from it, but then I listened to it myself and the rage that was channeling inside of me was, was so great. I did not want to subject that onto anybody else on a Monday morning. But Vance basically says the President's looking at all of his options right now. He says right now he hasn't needed to do the Insurrection Act. But we have to remember we are talking about this because crime has gotten out of control in our cities. That kind of go back and forth on these claims about crime and JD Vance basically keeping the door open to invoking the Insurrection Act.
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Bill Kristol
There is no insurrection, and that's not true. Therefore, it's that easy and they can invoke it. But I don't know that courts, I mean, courts typically don't look behind the curtain, so to speak. They defer to presidents on things of national security or quasi national security. This is so far, far removed from what the act is intended for. So ridiculous that I actually wonder if they're, you know, if that's a good legal recourse for them and maybe it even exposes them more. Now they're doing it sort of under this somewhat murky, complicated federalizing of the National Guard that has been used for other occasions, and it's used for a lot of things, actually. But what it does show, of course, is they're not willing to limit anything. It's all an excuse. It was the immigrants. We have to protect the ICE people. They're under such threat, these masked guys with guns from these protesters dressed up in inflatable costumes. It's really, we need to deploy people to protect them and to protect the facilities. Well, actually, none of them has really been attacked, and none of the facilities has really been attacked. But now it's crime. Crime is out of control. And Portland and Chicago, I guess. But I don't think that really supports the invocation of the Insurrection Act. It feels to me like it's turning a little bit against Trump. It's so ridiculous and so disproportionate and, and I really do believe this. The protesters have been courageous in Chicago in Particular where it's been rough and they are at risk when they go near that ICE facility and get tear gassed and pepper bombed and so forth. But also the ridicule. I mean, I feel like the protesters are doing a. Are being peaceful, but also clever and making the whole thing look what it is, which is more than a stunt. What's the right way to say it? A real attempt at intimidation of the American people.
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Charlie Sykes
There's a feeling of petering out in one sense. To your point on the stunts, we should shout out our colleague Lauren Egan, who wrote about the mockery of the protesters and how that has worked well, including the furries out there, and she wrote this sentence in the bulwark this morning. Inflatable frogs have been omnipresent, especially after a video went viral last week of law enforcement shooting pepper spray into one of the frog costumes, posterior air vents, which does at very serious times. It brings some silliness to this. But that's good, I think, because these things are related in a way, right? Like about why is this petering out? And what I'm talking about when I say this is particularly the sending of the troops in the National Guard into the cities. The ice stuff is a different category. But, you know, it's because we keep using the word pretext. Like, they need pretext, they need excuse. Right. And if the. If the protesters are, you know, kind of mocking them and teasing them and it's people with costumes and handing them roses and stuff, it's harder to create rationale for this. I was listening to one of these other MAGA podcasts over the weekend on my flight back, and it's like the arguments for sending the troops in Portland or Chicago are like. Are just based in nothing. Right? It's like you can hear them talking about how these protesters are so violent. That's what they keep saying, right? Like, you have to do this because the protests are so violent and out of control. And since there isn't any actual evidence of that, it becomes harder to acculturate that idea into the mainstream. And I do think maybe there's a lot. I mean, obviously this could change between now and when this thing publishes as far as what the facts are on the ground. But it is noteworthy, I think. Right?
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Bill Kristol
And they're trying to provoke the protesters, and so it could change for that reason, too. But now it is. And when we say petering out, I think we don't mean the situation necessarily is petering out. The ice is not backing off at all. So far as one can tell. And the assaults on the protesters, if anything, by ICE and other federal enforcement forces seem maybe a little stronger than, I mean, even more violent than they have been. But I do think the political momentum behind it's petering out.
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Charlie Sykes
Yeah, political momentum is petering out. Just to be. That is exactly what I meant as well.
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Bill Kristol
And I do think, you know, it's one thing for governors and mayors to say this isn't necessary. They're. People can look and say, well, they're Democrats and they're always going to say it's not necessarily in their own cities. They're not going to admit that they've let things get out of control. It's another thing for just tons of citizens, normal citizens, to show up and say this is both unnecessary and deeply offensive. You know, and that's why I do think the protests have mattered here more than I expect. I didn't quite realize that ahead of time, I got to say. You know, I mean, I didn't think about the distinction between a political official opposing something and citizens rallying to oppose it.
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Charlie Sykes
While we're talking about the protests, I do want to come back to ice. We had Mike Johnson and Tom Emmer and Sean Duffy all out over the weekend commenting on the protests and they had a similar argument that they were making. Let's actually listen to a couple of them. The theory we have right now, they have a Hate America rally that's scheduled for October 18th on the National Mall. It's all the pro Hamas wing and the, you know, the, the antifa people. They're all coming out. Some of the House Democrats are selling T shirts for the event. And it's being told to us that they won't be able to reopen the government until after that rally because they can't face their rabid base. But again, the no Kings protest, Maria, really frustrating. I mean, this is part of antifa paid protesters. It begs the question, who's funding it?
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Ty Cobb
This is about one thing and one thing only. To score political points with the terrorist wing of their party, which is set to hold, as leader Scalise just commented, on a Hate America rally.
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Charlie Sykes
So there you go. Mike Johnson, it's a Hate America rally. And Emmer, the terrorist wing of the Democratic Party. And I don't know, we have. The protests are coming up here on Saturday. Just to be very clear for everybody, no Kings protests are October 18, Saturday. I said the wrong date on a thing over the weekend. I'm doing, I'm doing my best out here, guys. The calendar, keeping track of the calendar is challenging. It is Saturday. Go to your local no Kings protest on Saturday. And especially go if you are a part of the Love America wing of the no Kings protest, which I think is basically everybody. I think it's inverse, might be projection. The Hate America side is the side calling people that are exercising their First Amendment rights terrorists. It seemed like to me, I was.
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Bill Kristol
At the no Kings protest, the first one in June, and it went out of its way to be patriotic, but it was patriotic. I mean, it wasn't just that they had been advised, which they, you know, to wave American flags and. But. But also they genuinely thought of themselves as defending, and they are, in my opinion, defending American principles and the American form of government and the American way of life, really against, against Trump's authoritarianism. And although I've seen a fair amount of the material that's been sent out for this protest, both to organizers, but also to, you know, just on the website for citizens to read, encouraging that to come, it's all bends over backwards to be peaceful and patriotic. And, you know, the millions of people are going to show up and they're going to be peaceful and patriotic on the whole Americans and the overwhelming, whole overwhelming majority. So I'm calling it, what do they call it? Pro terrorists and pro Hamas and hate America. I mean, it's. So far, it's one thing to, I mean, why are we even saying this? This is what they do.
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Ty Cobb
Right?
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Bill Kristol
But, but it's such a cliche, but it is Orwellian, right? I mean, it's one thing to say that, I don't know, pro Palestinian protesters who might include a few people waving Hamas, you know, who are Hamas defenders, that, that's all pro Hamas. That's unfair. But that's the kind of exaggeration, what that happens in, you know, this kind of political discourse. It's still bad, but this is so insanely removed from the truth that again, I sort of wonder if they can pull this off. That's the talking point. The talking point isn't we're proud of what President Trump is doing. He's improving the situation in this country. He's acting as a strong president. It's not that. Right. It's attacking millions of Americans who are going out to peacefully protest and wave signs on highways and bridges and assemble near the McLean Library, which is where I'll be, you know, on a sort of patch of green there at an intersection of two suburban roads. The idea that this is terrorist friendly is. It's really jaw dropping, but it's part of their whole strategy. Obviously, you know, the domestic terrorism stuff.
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Charlie Sykes
It is. And it's tied to Trump's speech to the generals where he's talking about the enemy within being more dangerous than the enemy without. It's tied to. In this Duffy quote, you know, he's talking about. It begs the question, who's funding the protests? Besides, like what Stephen Miller is saying about going after these organizations.
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Bill Kristol
I'd like Secretary Duffy if he could send me some information on who's funding me to drive a few miles to.
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Charlie Sykes
The New Orleans no Kings protest. It was like 110 degrees out there. If we were being funded by, you know, the Bilderbergers or whatever, it could have maybe used some, you know, some fans or maybe some of those things that, you know, below mist. Some misters could use some misters out there. It's phony, but it is. It is a kind of united effort, messaging effort of what they're trying to do. Right. Which is other eyes, the opposition internally menace them, target them, try to silence them, jail certain people. Obviously relates to what I talked to you about, Ty Cobb with Tish James and James Comey, and it all relates each other as far as what their political strategy is with regards to tamping down internal political opposition in a way that has, we should say, fundamentally anti American.
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Bill Kristol
Yeah, it's sort of almost like what a fascist or certainly what an authoritarian government does. And even beyond, like, even mild authoritarianism, it's a kind of fascism of different kinds or yeah, Stalinism, whatever you call your enemies the worst thing possible and ascribe to them some of your own actions. But, and it is just one point you made that I want to emphasize. It's organized and that is the one random Republican congressman says something extreme. Okay. You know, they're all, half of them are idiots and they say things like that and they want to get their clip, you know, to go viral on in right wing MAGA world. This is the speaker of the House, Emmer.
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Charlie Sykes
Right.
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Bill Kristol
Who's in leadership, of course. Vance too, as Vance said. Version of that, I think. Right.
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Charlie Sykes
I mean, it's a Cabinet member. Duffy's in the Cabinet.
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Bill Kristol
Yeah. So it's a coordinated and organized effort to besmirch millions of Americans. I hope many more people come out and to show how counterproductive this effort is. That would be nice.
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Charlie Sykes
I agree with that. And I do think there is, without focusing on the ominous, there is some political risk to this because I do think there is a big contrast in actual evidence of what the no Kings rallies And what folks have been doing versus, say, the 2020 Black Lives Matter rallies, where most of those were peaceful as well. Folks that came out were in the American tradition and spirit. There were also at the same time, looting. If you look at the worst of videos, what happened in Kenosha, for example, or Oakland, where I was living, there were some examples of this that could be used to otherize and marginalize the whole movement in a way that I think eventually is politically effective. It wasn't politically effective in 2020, but eventually was politically effective. There's just no pretense for that here. And so I do think it might make them end up looking kind of ridiculous. I do think that there is some potential political risk here to, you know, trying to smear just everyday Americans that are showing up with their, you know, fanny packs and sunblock and like, calling them antifa terrorists. I don't know.
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Bill Kristol
I hope so. I mean, I think the last time that there was this sustained an effort to demonize, or that's even quite the right word. What's the right word? I mean, to really just slander Americans trying to exercising their right of assembly and making a case for individual rights and for freedoms was in the 60s with the civil 50s and 60s. Well, I was gonna say 50s, 60s with civil rights protester hippie, where actual governors of states, I mean, senior officials, at least at the state level, called them communist, you know, communist demonstrators and communist agitators and so forth. Right. And people looked up at the time when I was a kid, but I sort of remember this and saw these peaceful demonstrators for civil rights getting hosed by Bull Connor and all. And I did make a difference politically, you know, against those who were slandering them. So I don't know. I hope no one gets hosed by. No, you know, gets beaten up like John Lewis was and so forth. But I don't know, you just see these scenes. I mean, it really is the violence that the ICE people are using. It's not quite at the level, thank God, of Kent State or something, but they are not holding back, it seems to me. And the protesters, to their credit, really are, I think, and behaving responsibly.
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Charlie Sykes
Yeah. And that does take us back to ice, because there are echoes of this, the way that ICE has been behaving, obviously. I interviewed George Reddes last week. His story was heroin.
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Bill Kristol
Yeah, that was amazing. That was just amazing.
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Charlie Sykes
Terrible what they did to him. Unbelievable. And really, the most amazing thing about George, it's worth shouting out, is the way in which at the end of the conversation when I was filled with rage and wanting to shout at the moon and turn my flag upside down like Martha Analito. He had a very even temperament about. It was almost cheerful and optimistic and positive about America. It was really kind of heartwarming to hear his resilience in the face of the way he was treated. But it wasn't. It isn't just him. Right? There's another video from over the weekend that the guy. And a little bit of irony, his name is Francisco Miranda and who is also a US Citizen, and he gets menaced by the ICE agents. Let's just put up a little bit of this.
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Bill Kristol
What do you mean overstate?
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Charlie Sykes
An overstate.
- [18:56]
Bill Kristol
I don't know what that is.
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Ty Cobb
Where were you born? I'm from California.
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Bill Kristol
Don't lie to me.
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Ty Cobb
Where were you born? California.
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Charlie Sykes
Okay, so we're gonna take you in.
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Ty Cobb
And verify your information. No, you're not, dude.
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Bill Kristol
No, you're not.
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Ty Cobb
We are. I haven't done anything wrong.
- [19:08]
Bill Kristol
You just told me that's.
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Charlie Sykes
That's you, who I have here.
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Type 1 Diabetes PSA Announcer
Yeah.
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Charlie Sykes
Okay, so then that's you. You just told me that's you.
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Bill Kristol
But that doesn't make me an illegal or anything. Turn around.
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Charlie Sykes
You're gonna get the dog. The guys yelling, turn around or you're getting the dog. And then they're like. Then they're manhandling him. I just don't understand, like, how there is not eventually overwhelming pushback to all of this on some level. Obviously, there's a human question, and many of us don't want any humans, whether they're here legally or not, to be treated such a way by ice. But if you get to a point where you really are in a Stasi situation, where you have masked agents harassing and menacing people that are citizens of this country, threatening to sick the dogs on them, putting them in solitary confinement, I mean, like, that is extremely, extremely dark place that we're in. And I think that it also is unpopular if there can be enough attention given to it, if there can be popular momentum to push back against it.
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Bill Kristol
And if people see what I think is clearly true, which is these are not individual rogue cases, One ICE agent here on the west coast and one in Chicago was. Acted badly. Okay? That's. Life happens with police forces. Obviously, that's not happening. They're clearly being encouraged to do this. Nove has paid a price for any of these actions. And this is, of course, the message and the spirit that's coming from Kristi Noem and from people running the Border Patrol and ICE and Stephen Miller himself. Right. I mean, it is important to make, I think, to say this isn't just, gee, they didn't recruit very good people. And, you know, it's a lot of this. They're overworked. They're a little. They're tired and they get worked up and overheated. You know, this is what they want.
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Charlie Sykes
And they want more. They've added more funding to it. They're doing recruitment campaigns. That's why they had former Superman, Dean Cain out there, you know, running the Little Gladiator. Running, excuse me, walking meandering through the gladiator track. It is the plan.
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Bill Kristol
And the recruitment campaigns sort of emphasize this aspect of what ICE and the Border Patrol do. Right? I mean, it's sort of. You get to have a join ice. You too, can participate in trying to intimidate and terrorize your other people here in America.
- [21:25]
Charlie Sykes
All right, folks, the weather is cooling, especially for many of you up in the Northeast. I was in New York on Saturday night. Beanie. I was in a Beanie. No, it was on Sunday morning after the show. Going to get coffee. Hate that. You know, I'm a summer boy, and luckily we get the extended summer down here in the South. But even still, I have to go to New York and D.C. and so I've been starting to think about my fall and winter gear, and I've been turning to our friends at Quince that delivers every time with wardrobe staples that'll carry you through the season. Quince has the fall attire that you'll want to wear on repeat, like 100% Mongolian cashmere from just 60 bucks. Classic fit denim like me and Ty Cobb are both wearing today. And real leather and wool outerwear that looks sharp and holds up. By partnering directly with top artisans, Quince cuts out the middlemen to deliver premium quality at half the cost of similar brands. I was eyeing a little cable knit sweater. I've had a cable knit sweater for a while that I was wearing on msnbc. And I had somebody that will remain nameless tell me about how gay I was looking in that cable knit sweater. And I gotta tell you, I take that as a compliment. And so I took that feedback and I was like, you know, I'm gonna go to Quint's and get a new one. And I got a new merino wool cable knit sweater coming that you'll be seeing probably not anytime soon in New Orleans, but, you know, next time I'm in D.C. and New York, so keep your eye out for that. It's gonna look cute. So layer up this fall with pieces that feel as good as they Look. Go to quints.com the Bulwark for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available. What's up, Canada? That's Q U I-n c-e.com the Bulwark free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com the Bulwark the other news item for the weekend is the RIFs, the reduction in force from the government. It's happening across a bunch of different agencies that a big focus was in what is happening inside hhs. Our colleague Sam Stein has been doing a lot of reporting on this. Well, just Jonathan Cohn at this point, we don't exactly know who's all been fired, like in part because these guys are showing competent. They fired the Ebola team and then rehired them. Said that was an accident. Some of the people that are fired are furloughed and so they can't access their email and don't know whether or not they're fired. And so there's a lot of confusion out there. But just as one example that Sam wrote about in the newsletter that I just want to mention, so you have the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration. This Sam HSA is a small agency inside hhs, but it plays a vital role in funding, overseeing and advising state and local programs on things like opioid addiction treatment and suicide prevention. It is now down to about one third of its former size with all of the rifts on the people. I mean, part of this is part of their plan, but it is important to point this stuff out. These guys try to have it both ways, where they're saying, well, we really do care about the forgotten man. When it comes to fentanyl, when it comes to certain areas, when it comes to our base, this is the JD Vance shtick. We need to care about the Appalachian. And these are the kinds of agencies, those are the kind of people this is meant to help, like the, the small agencies focused on opioid addiction. And these guys are just getting mass firings, not based on, like, performance or efficiency or whatever. Just, just Russell Vaught wanting to, you know, chop off as much as the government as possible, cause as much pain.
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Bill Kristol
As possible, and chop off the parts they don't like because of some vague ideological, I mean, distaste for what, helping people's mental health. I think they don't like that. I think in the veterans association, too, there's been cutbacks and parts, you Know, the hospital.
- [25:06]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah. They don't believe in therapy.
- [25:08]
Bill Kristol
Yeah, no, that is really a fan of BetterHelp. Right?
- [25:10]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah.
- [25:10]
Bill Kristol
Yeah. They don't believe in real scientific research. In scientific research on, you know, diseases either. So, I mean, I do think in that respect, again, one wonders, maybe I'm just talking myself into being optimistic this morning in a weird way, in a dark moment, maybe that, too, is an overreach. Do people really want, you know, it's one thing to okay government shut down. Americans are used to that. Some arguments on both sides. The Republicans did pass a budget, blah, blah, blah, you know, so it's sort of. Of who's really responsible. Maybe they should get together and negotiate. But that taking advantage of it in this way and in, as you say, very cruel and foolish ways. I hope the Democrats can really go to town on this. I wish they would just go to town on all of this, honestly, and stop saying. Having to preface every sentence they say. That's criticizing the administration. Of course we want to sit at the table. I mean, we're really into here. You know, if we only can get back to the table and work this out, maybe they could just drop that for a week.
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Charlie Sykes
You don't want to get to the table?
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Bill Kristol
I do not want to get to the table this week. I want to spend this week criticizing the brutality in the cities and the. And the cruelty in the. In their budget and in their operations. And then let's go to the no Kings demonstration and let that be a real expression of American public opinion. And then they can go sit. I guess they have to sit at the table at some point, but I'm so sick of maybe they shouldn't even.
- [26:19]
Chiquis
Maybe.
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Bill Kristol
Can't they just deal by email or something? Yeah.
- [26:22]
Charlie Sykes
What is it? Am I wrong?
- [26:24]
Bill Kristol
The table thing is driving me crazy. It's just like the metaphor. I don't know what it's about. It's so Washington, right? We got to get around a table.
- [26:31]
Charlie Sykes
Feel free to tell me to not feel good about something, because I'm always open to a more pessimistic view. But almost in spite of the messaging efforts, I feel like the Democrats are kind of winning the shutdown. And I think that in part because, like, the substance is really on their side. Like, maybe not the substance of the, like, minutiae of the legislative, you know, because I feel like a lot of times we sort of have flipped the types of arguments that are usually being made. Like, a lot of times you hear Democrats making arguments about Senate norms and like. And like, you know, the rescissions package and all this. And. And you have Republicans doing, like, demagoguing. And now it's sort of inverse. Not the Democrats demagogueing, but the Republicans are, like, talking about how, well, you know, we need. You need 60 votes in the Senate and it's the Schumer shutdown. And, you know, you don't exactly understand how the processes work on Capitol Hill. And the. And the Democrats are the ones out there saying, like, well, no, stop cutting people's health care. Stop, you know, sending people into the streets of cities to harass our citizens mass. Right. Like. And they have more of a substantive complaint versus the Republicans. It feels like it's not like a overwhelming success or anything, but it seems like, on balance it's working.
- [27:45]
Bill Kristol
And my only recommendation would be Jeffries and Schumer in particular, most of the elected officials, they should just not go on television and instead recommend to the bookers and even push the bookers to book the victims of ICE and the people who were benefit from the services that we've been talking about, mental health and others, and put them on television as the spokespeople against what the administration is doing. But of course, politicians think they're the best spokesmen and women, so they can't. They can't give up their spot to someone else.
- [28:14]
Charlie Sykes
You know, related to kind of the, you know, congressional wrangling is there's a Wall Street Journal story out this weekend about how the White House is crowing about how they have made Congress to submit this time more effectively than the last time. Among the quotes from this story, inside the White House, top advisors joke that they are ruling Congress with an iron fist. Steve Bannon likened Congress to the Duma, the Russian assembly that is largely ceremonial. And I gotta say, Bannon, right again, it's about to be a trend with bad people being right. But gotta say, Bannon feels pretty right about this. This Congress is not, basically, does not need to exist. The Republican Congress. And I think the degree to which they have not demonstrated that they have any interest in actual governing also weakens this argument that, like, oh, it must be the Democrats. The House has only been in session, like, 12 days since memorial Day or something. I'm making that number up. But they've barely been inside. They haven't been in session for weeks. They went in hiding because Epstein, you know, now they're. Now they're back out of session again because they don't want to know negotiation over the shutdown stuff. And I do think that it's Pretty bad for our system of government and balance of powers. But as a political matter at this point, I just think that it's accepted that this is the situation. The Congress has now just completely abdicated any responsibility. Yeah.
- [29:41]
Bill Kristol
And I guess Johnson's keeping them out even now. Sort of because of Epstein too. Right. Because if the clock. He would have to swear in the new member of Congress from Arizona.
- [29:49]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah. He doesn't want to swear in Gavaglia, I think is her name. She won a special election in Arizona.
- [29:53]
Bill Kristol
Yeah. And that would give 218 signatures and then the clock would start ticking. So for various reasons he's trying to run the clock out. So they don't. The discharge petition on Epstein doesn't come due this session. You're right. That's a good point. They should make that point more too. I mean, that they're. They say they want to govern, but they don't want to govern, of course. And yeah, they're off just doing whatever they're doing. They're off not having town halls in their district. I mean, where are the Republican members of Congress? They're utterly invisible. You know, they don't want to see the voters. Right.
- [30:20]
Charlie Sykes
Mar A Lago, Sea Island. I don't know. Hanging out Newsmax, doing Fox. It's hard to get in on the Fox circuit though these days if you're a Republican congressperson because all of the Trump Cabinet is on constantly. I spent a bunch of time watching Fox the last couple days I've been traveling around and I knew it intellectually, but watching it, it's kind of astounding how often the Trump Cabinet is on and it really is. There's like a state TV element to it at times.
- [30:50]
Bill Kristol
And they're sucking up to Trump a lot. Right. It's not just that they're defending administration policies, which would be a more traditional thing for a cabinet member to do. Rubio, I saw, maybe that wasn't on Fox. It was like a video they put out or something. But it has the Secretary of State, like the State Department skill on it or something. And it's Rubio just praising to the sky. I mean, this is like Stalin or something in the Soviet Union, you know, you know, lauding Trump as what an amazing and wonderful president. And yeah, again, maybe people find that a little off putting. I hope.
- [31:19]
Charlie Sykes
I don't know. It's hard when stuff isn't breaking through. I noticed. I went to look to see if my friend George Reddes had been covered or mentioned at all in Fox News. No, he has not literally not mentioned. Yeah, you would think that a veteran who was jailed by the government for three days, put in solitary confinement for 48 hours, that might be a story of the interest to the Patriots over at Fox. But no. I tweeted at Bret Baer to see if he was gonna be interested in covering. He's not gone back to me. Every once in a while, Brett will reply, for whatever that's worth. If you're still overpaying for wireless, it's time to say yes to saying no. At Mint Mobile, their favorite word is no. No contracts, no monthly bills, no overages, no hidden fees, no bs. Here's how you should say yes to making the switch and giving Premium Wireless for 15 bucks a month. Ditch the overpriced wireless and their jaw dropping monthly bills, unexpected overages and hidden fees. Plans start at 15 bucks a month with Mint. All plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. Use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan and bring your phone number along with all your existing contacts. If I was in the market for a new phone plan, this is the one that I'd be turning to. Ready to say yes to saying no. Make the switch@mintmobile.com bulwark that's mintmobile.com bulwark upfront payment of 45 bucks required, equivalent to $15 a month limited time new customer offer for the first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on unlimited plan taxes and fees extra CMIT mobile for details Speaking of people that are offering unexpected truth bombs, Marjorie Taylor Greene was on a podcast with Tim Dillon this weekend that I listened to and what I'm about to say is not a joke. I think that if you are a Democratic congressperson listening to the show or a Democratic staffer, you have to listen to the entire whatever it is, 30, 40 minutes of Marjorie Taylor Greene on the Tim Dillon podcast. Because Marjorie Taylor continues to say some crazy shit, of course, and there are some anti semitic stuff there, though. They, they, they deny it. But like there's there's some concerning comments in that space. There's obviously still occasional lavish praise of Donald Trump, right? So, so you wouldn't want to if you're a Democratic Congressman, you wouldn't want to use every single talking point that Marjorie Taylor gre. But there are a number of talking points that she uses where she is extremely blunt, talking about the failures of the Trump administration's policies to respond to the needs of working class voters of Maga voters and the way in which she talks about it is something that I think folks on the left could learn from. I want to play one clip in.
- [33:58]
Marjorie Taylor Greene
Particular, but we're having problems with these tariffs and now we're having problems. We can't get supplies from this country, and we can't get supplies from this country, and there's problems. But have regular people's bank accounts been affected? Has the stress come off? No, that has not happened yet. And that needs to be the major focus. It shouldn't be about helping your crypto donors or your AI donors, or welcoming in these people that hated you and spent money to try to beat you, but all of a sudden are excited to come out to the the new Rose Garden patio.
- [34:36]
Ty Cobb
Yes.
- [34:37]
Marjorie Taylor Greene
That shouldn't be the focus. The focus should be the people that showed up at the rallies.
- [34:43]
Charlie Sykes
No notes. Amen. Marjorie Taylor Greene. That's exactly right. Every single word of that is exactly right. You're welcome on the podcast anytime, Congresswoman. And I've got a lot of problems with her in various ways, but that is good messaging and also correct.
- [35:00]
Bill Kristol
If she comes on this on the Bulwark podcast, that will be a moment you and she. That'll be great. Launch her campaign for the Democratic nomination in 2028.
- [35:10]
Charlie Sykes
Well, I think probably that's a little, that's probably a little bit out of step, but the plain way in which she's speaking is good. And also just this contrast of like, people's lives aren't getting better. MAGA voters, lives aren't getting better. That was what your mandate was for. And it seems like you're spending more time catering to the tech oligarchs. You know, she doesn't use oligarchs, the big tech donors, tech billionaires, crypto billionaires, and having your little parties on the Rose Garden patio. And that is exactly the right thing to be saying because it's true.
- [35:45]
Bill Kristol
Is she reflecting any broader sentiments rippling beneath the surface in MAGA world, do you think, or is she just herself?
- [35:51]
Charlie Sykes
I don't think she's reflecting any broader sentiments in kind of active MAGA political worlds. Right. Like, I think that people are generally pretty happy and MAGA media world, maga, the grassroots, like the biggest spoilers and.
- [36:09]
Bill Kristol
Scared of criticizing Trump.
- [36:10]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah, but that next layer down. Yeah, I don't know. And I'll just say she goes on in this interview and literally, because she listens the whole thing. She's got three kids in their 20s. Like, she represents a district. It's like rural Georgia. Right. So you're out there. She's seeing if you have three kids in their 20s, seeing the challenges financially right now that people are facing in this world. You're experiencing that in a. In a. Maybe a more direct way than some of these older members of the house. Right. And people who live in big city. Right. Like. Like, you know, it's just. It is different. Right. So I think that her experience there is part of it. I think that she has, like, the cred to do this. Right. There's not a ton of worry that she's going to get probably married from the right. Right. It's like she doesn't live in fear of that like all these other guys do. So I think there's a little bit of that that gives her a chance to do truthiness. Maybe there's some political strategizing here. I don't know. I mean, that podcast, Tim Dillon's like, sounds like maybe you're a better MAGA representative for 2028 than J.D. vance. But she doesn't take the bait on that. Maybe that's what. It's a weird time to do that, though. October of 2025 is kind of a strange time to do that. But maybe that's in her. I don't know. And she is a crazy person. I mean, I mean, she started screaming at David Hogg on the street, thinks that they're space lasers. She wishes Jews are controlling the. So it's hard to get fully inside her head. But I guess I would say this. I think if there were a lot of people talking like Marjorie Daler Greene was talking, I think it would resonate with people because it's true. It has a benefit of being true. Like, people's lives aren't getting better. And Donald Trump does care more about his rose garden, patio parties and helping the Silicon Valley tech leaders that have come belatedly to his effort than he cares about the struggles of regular people. And it's just like nobody's really convincingly built to make that argument for a long time. And so maybe it will be Marjorie Taylor Greene that will do it. That's my analysis.
- [37:59]
Ty Cobb
Here we are. Here we are.
- [38:01]
Charlie Sykes
Bill Crystal and Marjorie Taylor Greene together. Who knows? Who knows? Life is long. You know, it's a strange trip. You know, the journey, the roads, the twists and turns. Who knows how things will end up? You wrote in the newsletter this morning you were feeling oddly cheerful, so I'm going to end on an oddly cheerful note. You were speaking at a college and you referenced, as mentioned, the pie. I said you haven't always had an oddly cheerful moment on colleges. At a college, you were at Earlham College, and members in the audience jeered a student who threw a pie at you and it splattered on your face. You wiped the pie from your face, as the New York Times write up, and said, just let me finish this point. Then you finished the speech and took questions from the audience. It didn't seem like you went on a campaign to cancel the student afterwards. So that's nice. What kind of pie was it? Do you Remember?
- [38:54]
Bill Kristol
This was 20 years ago at Earlham College, which is in eastern Indiana. I think it was in Mike Pence's congressional district, because he called me the next day to sort of not apologize, but to say, gee, it's terrible. Sorry, so sorry that happened to you in my district. And it's a Quaker school. And it was a very nice visit. It was a speech and a paced speech, and they had nice dinner before. And the president there was emphasizing the. That they're very proud of their Quaker roots, of course, which is appropriate, and that they've always tried to have diversity of viewpoint and tolerance for unpopular viewpoints. And I was there sort of defending basically, Bush's foreign policy, you know, which was not popular, I would say, at this school nor at most campuses at the time. And it was just kind of funny that that's where this kid took it into his mind to sort of rush up to the stage and throw this chocolate cream pie at me, which hit me, sort of splattered onto the president or something behind me, who was on the stage, too.
- [39:42]
Charlie Sykes
And a chocolate cream.
- [39:43]
Bill Kristol
That was it. It was soft.
- [39:44]
Charlie Sykes
Did you get a lick? Did you taste it?
- [39:45]
Bill Kristol
It was. Well, you couldn't help it, you know, Wipe it off maybe a little bit. Yeah, there it was on my. On my jacket when I went back to the Holiday Inn afterwards.
- [39:55]
Charlie Sykes
It was a moment. It was a moment.
- [39:56]
Bill Kristol
I wouldn't dramatize it. It was not the most traumatic thing that ever happened.
- [39:59]
Charlie Sykes
So think about how far you've come, though, 20 years ago, getting pied on campus and to where you are now. Think about what could happen to Marjorie Taylor Greene in 20 years.
- [40:08]
Bill Kristol
Yeah, that's a good point.
- [40:09]
Charlie Sykes
You know, maybe she can go on a similar journey. Anyway, you are oddly cheerful because you're. You're doing a little campus tour.
- [40:16]
Bill Kristol
No, I saw these students out in California, USC and Claremont, and I was giving speeches, but, you know, obviously they arranged some sessions with students who were active in various institutes there and politics and political science department and stuff. And they were good, they were great. And I'm sure huge self selection are the ones who want to spend an hour talking to me and so forth. So I don't want to exaggerate this, but I was struck that they were sensible. And you know, all this talk among people my age, even your age, kids, the kids are all messed up. What's going to happen? I don't know. Felt me like the kids were more sensible than people my age who are busy, you know, supporting Donald J. Trump, which the kids aren't actually there, you know. You know what, if only the kids had voted in this last election, it would have been a lot better. All the boomers who were going on and on about how the kids minds have been ruined by social media and warped by this and that, I'm a little more skeptical of that. And so they were nice visits and as I say, they sort of maybe a little artificially cheered me up. But that was good to be cheered up.
- [41:11]
Charlie Sykes
We could use some artificial cheers. Bill Kristol, good to see you as always. No pies here on this podcast and maybe somebody, maybe one of our listeners will send you a pie to enjoy. Are you on a health gig? Are you Maha? Now I noticed that the Bulwark office is a little Maha for my taste. And I sent an all staff missive complaining about how the only chocolate in the office was the protein chocolate that was low in sugar. It's like, come on. Okay, I'm all about health, but I wanted a Reese's peanut butter cup. We can do that. We can treat ourselves.
- [41:45]
Bill Kristol
I'm going into the office shortly here and I will weigh in.
- [41:49]
Charlie Sykes
Thank you.
- [41:49]
Bill Kristol
I think the two of us together will have no influence at all on what actually is purchased as snacks for the office, but whatever.
- [41:56]
Charlie Sykes
I'm with some goddamn crunchy M M's in the office. All right, everybody, that's Bill Kristol. Up next, Ty Cobb. We'll see you next week though.
- [42:22]
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- [43:21]
Ty Cobb
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- [43:52]
Charlie Sykes
All right, we are back. I am delighted to welcome to the show an attorney and the former special counsel for the White House during President Trump's first term, it's Ty Cobb. How you doing, man?
- [44:01]
Ty Cobb
I'm doing great, man. Thanks so much for having me.
- [44:03]
Charlie Sykes
You're looking good. You know, we're both in our, both in our jean shirts. You know, you're looking a little tan. You know, you don't have the weight of the world on you anymore. I don't know. I feel like you're looking better than you did in 2017.
- [44:14]
Ty Cobb
Oh, definitely. Yeah. Well, I've lost a lot of weight and gotten in some pretty good shape and but for the current circumstances, I'd be on cloud nine.
- [44:27]
Charlie Sykes
All right, well, I want to talk a little bit more about your journey before. We got some news stuff we want to get to get your take on. Obviously, since we last posted. On Friday, grand jury came back with an indictment against Tish James over this mortgage. She bought a $137,000 home for a grand niece and some questions about the way she filed the mortg. Seems like a pretty ticky tack indictment. That comes obviously on the tails of Trump directing his attorney General to indict her. So what do you make of the Tish James case?
- [44:58]
Ty Cobb
Oh, I think it's pure vengeance, pure revenge. I mean, Trump fundamentally is just crippled by his narcissism. And that plays out in terms of any adulation he can get, any power that he can accrue to himself, and any revenge that he can take. Those are the things that fuel that psychology. Like comey. Tish James had the temerity to charge him with something that he committed to appellate courts in New York have upheld the finding of the fraud, although there's a dispute over the damages, and the courts have ruled that the damages were improperly calculated. Keep in mind, you know, you've got Ned Martin and Bill Pulte, two little pit bulls of little character who are out there trying to help Trump punish his enemies. Bill Pulte searching the mortgage files everywhere on, you know, Comey, James, Lisa Cook, others, you know, trying to find anything that can be brought. And this, this mortgage was not the mortgage that, you know, they made a.
- [46:06]
Charlie Sykes
Big deal out of.
- [46:07]
Ty Cobb
In fact, the mortgage they made a big deal out of. The evidence showed that, you know, the bank knew and she had told them that it was going to be a vacation home. Abby Lowell wrote a declination memo to the Justice Department to present a counter to that alleged case, which is how the Justice Department originally got started. So what they did was, well, they said, well, let's find something else. And that's just not the way the Justice Department works. Usually you have a crime that is referred to, you know, and you investigate it and you find the perpetrator and you prosecute. Here they got a list of enemies from Trump, and they went out to try to find anything in the world that they could pin on. This case was also one like Comey, where seasoned prosecutors, the head of Major Crimes in the Eastern District of Virginia, told Halligan and others that there was no case here. This was not something that should be prosecuted, but they did it anyway. So this is pure vengeance. I think that's the story. I always get a little worried when people start getting in the weeds about, well, you know, what about this? What about this? In terms of the allegations? The reality is people should focus on the big picture, which is a president should not be out there using the Justice Department purely for revenge.
- [47:23]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah. What about the argument that the MAGA folks would make, which is like, turnabout is fair play. Tis James kind of did this to Trump, basically decided that he was a criminal and was looking for something to charge him with. What would you make of that argument?
- [47:38]
Ty Cobb
Well, it wasn't hard to find something.
- [47:39]
Charlie Sykes
To charge him with.
- [47:42]
Ty Cobb
He had committed real estate fraud at a level rarely seen in American history. The damage award from the jury, from the judge, keep in mind, was $347 million. That's a little bit more than the $3,100 that's really an issue in the Tish James case. Now they say, you know, well, no, it's not $3,100. It's 18, $18,900. Well, that's not true. That's only if you took the mortgage all the way out to its, you know, the end of its duration. Right now they're five years into a 30 year mortgage and the alleged benefit to her is $50 a month. I think it'll be very interesting to see what the bank's testimony is in terms of whether anything about the process actually resulted in her getting any benefit. But $50 a month, I mean, that's compared to $347 million worth of real estate fraud and impropriety by Trump. Give me a break.
- [48:42]
Charlie Sykes
You were involved, I guess, as special counsel when Trump had fired Comey and there was probe into that and defending the administration's actions and all that. I just wonder, looking at this come case now with that perspective of eight, nine years, what do you make of why Trump is so mad at Comey? Comey kind of helped Trump in the election and Comey's behavior from that time through now.
- [49:06]
Ty Cobb
So I think trying to look at it linearly is probably the wrong perspective in my view. Trump fired Comey in large part because of, as, I mean, this is not, this is nothing new for me, but in large part because of the manner in which Trump felt he was shaken down over the phony intel report and he just didn't trust him, instinctively fired him. He had the absolute right legally to fire him. You know, it was handled in typical Trump fashion, which is awkwardly.
- [49:41]
Charlie Sykes
That wasn't really the state and they gave a bunch of bullshit stated reasons too.
- [49:44]
Ty Cobb
Yeah. But at the end of the day, I think the real motivator was the preparation of the intel report, you know, the, you know, the buy in to the, you know, Russian misinformation that Brennan is now under investigation for. And the leaks, the timing of the leaks now, you know, all of that's, I guess, interesting historical fodder. But at the end of the day, this is an act taken out of mental illness. I mean, this is Trump's narcissism in full bloom. This is not something that would have happened under any other president. President. And trying to do whataboutism is really a fool's errand.
- [50:21]
Charlie Sykes
So I assume, I guess, you tell me if I'm wrong, that the end of this will be both James and Comey having charges dropped or being acquitted based on political prosecution and also just based on the merits of these cases, the weak merits of the cases. If you agree with that, and we assume that happens, let's say.
- [50:40]
Ty Cobb
No, I believe that to be the case.
- [50:42]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah. Okay. So then, then what do you think the implications are of that then? Right, because I do worry that folks who are not as steeped in kind of the law and the norms and the way things work might just look at this and say, oh, well, kind of no harm, no foul there, when obviously there's a lot of potential danger to the government targeting people, people feeling chilled, people having to pay, having their lives upended and ruined, having Comey's daughter got fired. What do you think about, like, it is a little bit complex as a political matter in that case, don't you think?
- [51:17]
Ty Cobb
Absolutely. This is sort of so little about the law and so much about cruelty and intimidation. I mean, what government official is going to come forward in these times and criticize Trump or say no to some initiative that Trump wants to do? I mean, look at what Bondi has done in just a few months where her loyalty is so patently to Trump and not to the Constitution. I mean, she's abandoned her oath and, you know, is willing to do these, these despicable things that no attorney general in history, with the possible exception of John Mitchell, has ever thought about doing. It's. It's pretty stunning. And, but I think the cruelty and the, and the intimidation factors are really intended to, you know, quell any internal criticism or any government official or actually any official from criticizing him.
- [52:11]
Charlie Sykes
So what do you say, though? I mean, to people, I don't know what your kind of relationship is now to folks who are still supporters of the president or who had been around him. How do you break through to them the severity and the seriousness of the moment if it doesn't. If the consequences aren't tangible? Tangible?
- [52:32]
Ty Cobb
Well, it's interesting. I'd be interested in your response to that, too.
- [52:38]
Charlie Sykes
Okay.
- [52:38]
Ty Cobb
Because, you know, because you and I have spent, you know, long time in. Enter around Republican politics, centrist Republicans. You know, you were very helpful to Jeb Bush. I was a big contributor to Jeb Bush. I thought that was the way for the country. I'm sad we didn't go that way and went with Trump instead. But that party's gone. That's gone. It's all MAGA now. And trying to reach them is insane. I mean, it's, you know, Tom Holman with $50,000 in a paper bag. You know, people think that's okay. And if they think that's okay, you know, how are you going to tell them to, you know, cross on green and stop on red? They don't get it.
- [53:23]
Charlie Sykes
That takes you to your part of it. You mentioned It. Jeb supporter, we appreciated your donation, though I don't know if we spent it as judiciously as maybe we could have. Why did you go in in the first place?
- [53:35]
Ty Cobb
That's an excellent question. I think at the time, I said, in response to a question from Kaitlin Polins, who was, I think, at Law360 or one of the legal magazines at the time, that I likely made this decision because I had rocks in my head and steel balls. So I was never a Trump supporter, and quite the opposite.
- [53:59]
Charlie Sykes
But.
- [54:01]
Ty Cobb
Candidly, I thought it was a very, very dangerous time for the country. I mean, nobody knew at the time whether Trump had actually colluded with the Russians, which he hadn't kind of had wanted to. Well, he might have, but the reality is, I mean, it was. It's just sad that, you know, that event, you know, the Clinton campaign paying, you know, Michael Steele through Jake Sullivan and Mark Elias.
- [54:30]
Charlie Sykes
Christopher Steele, you mean.
- [54:31]
Ty Cobb
Oh, yeah, Christopher Steele. I'm sorry.
- [54:32]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah.
- [54:32]
Ty Cobb
Not Michael Steele. Not my former lieutenant governor in Maryland. So it's unfortunate that that happened. But in typical Trump fashion, the response is, you know, far more powerful than the initial incident insult. But at the time, nobody knew whether Trump had colluded with Russia. Mueller had been appointed. Mueller was a close friend of mine, and I'm sad that he's got health issues these days, because I don't really know many people in American history who I think more highly of than Bob Mueller. But we had a long relationship, and I thought the country might be able to get through that issue in a. In a slightly less divisive way if I could help manage it from the Trump White House side. Now, as a lawyer, it was a assignment. It was not a passionate, I got to defend the president kind of thing. And we worked through it. There was never a subpoena. There was never a dispute about the quality of the White House response. The one frustration for Mueller over, you know, the White House response was, you know, Trump refusing to be interviewed. But legally, the quality of the response made their ability to force him to be interviewed virtually impossible under the law, which is a bunch of cases, the most prominent case being espy. So at the end of the day, you know, once I had largely completed my task, I was ready to go. I mean, I. I had opportunities to stay in the administration, stay in the administration in more consequential roles, but that's not why I was there. I wasn't there to add to my resume. I was there to perform that one task, and I got it Done and I left.
- [56:19]
Charlie Sykes
And I guess the big complaint about that was at the very end, which was the bar letter though, or the way the bar kind of handled the dissemination of the report.
- [56:28]
Ty Cobb
Yeah, I think that was controversial. On the other hand, and what I think people don't understand is that letter was required by statute, by the special counsel statute. I think the difficulty was the fact that the Mueller report sort of did not adhere to the guidelines for a special counsel in terms of resolution. They sort of left a bunch of things up in the air, forcing the Attorney General to make some decisions. So I think you can criticize Barr from for wordsmithing, but I don't think it's fair to criticize him for actually the conclusions he reached because I think they were really dictated by the facts. But that again shows you how divisive the whole thing was.
- [57:14]
Commercial Announcer
October is Cybersecurity Awareness Month, a reminder that your digital life is always at risk. Every day, hackers steal identities, drain bank accounts and open fraudulent accounts. Lifelong Lifelock is here with tips to help prevent you from becoming a victim. Use strong passwords, set up multi factor authentication on your accounts, report scams, and update the software on your devices. And for peace of mind, get LifeLock. LifeLock monitors millions of data points a second for threats to your identity. If your identity is stolen, a LifeLock US based restoration specialist will fix it, guaranteed or your money back. Plus, LifeLock plans include the million dollar protection package, meaning LifeLock will reimburse you to your plan's limits if you lose money due to identity theft. Stay smart, stay safe and stay protected. Get comprehensive identity protection with a 30 day free trial@lifelock.com use promo code NEWS. That's lifelock.com promo code NEWS for 30 days. Free terms apply.
- [58:14]
Charlie Sykes
Back to the question about you being kind of in there and whether or not to be in there. People are going through this at this time and there's just this huge difference in my perception from the period where you were there 2718 to now. I mean, you're obviously focused on the Russia probe, but you have Don McGahn in there, John Kelly, and there are a bunch of people who I don't have a ton of love for and who did a bunch of things that I would not have gone along with. But yet there were folks that were trying to put limits on him and fences on the President and make sure that he kind of stayed within the bounds of the law. And there were less known people that were also doing that, particularly on the legal side in the justice department and elsewhere. That seems to be totally gone. And I'm wondering what you think about that, like now and whether it was good to have those guardrails there back then or how to hand, you know, what the right ways to handle that. It's a real tough question.
- [59:05]
Ty Cobb
I think that's a great observation. Certainly, Kelly was one of the people that tried to restrain the president. And actually, I don't think the country will ever know the full story behind the, the efforts and the successes that Kelly had in that regard and under circumstances that were incredibly, you know, frustrating for him. I mean, he's another guy, a man of honor who, you know, loves his country and has made some enormous sacrifices, including the death of his son in the service, which is particularly significant, I think, because it goes to that day at Arlington, where Kelly's son is buried. And Trump's talking about these guys as losers and what was in it for them. You know, he suffered some just shocking disappointments, but he served brilliantly and forcefully. There were other people. So I will say that, you know, certainly Mattis, the General Mattis, was effective in terms of preventing the president from doing some of the things that he's doing now in terms of these isolated, well, the war crimes in Venezuela and many of the things that he's doing internationally. I think Nikki Haley was very effective. I think there were people who were experienced and talented and that Trump recognized knew more about what they were doing than he knew. As opposed to now, where he appoints his friends or neighbors or people who said nice things about him on Fox News to positions they're clearly unqualified for, have no expertise, and are busy running the government into the ground.
- [60:46]
Charlie Sykes
And so I guess the question is then how people should handle this. And I've had long running debates with Steve Hayes and else Farah and some other friends. Should people go in to try to do that, or do you become complicit with him Now? I think this question is very acute among people that, like, work for justice or work for the FBI. And you are an assistant U.S. attorney early in your career. If you're somebody like that and you are now being directed to either prosecute Trump's foes or focus your entire department only on immigration crimes rather than any other crimes, what do you say to somebody that is right now in the Justice Department and FBI or FBI trying to figure out whether it's worth having people that follow the law in there or whether it's, or whether they should be hitting the road?
- [61:42]
Ty Cobb
That's a question that hits at home for me. I get contacted frequently by senior FBI people and others in the intelligence community about, I got to get out of here. And I try to urge them to stay. That's not everybody's view. There are a lot of people who would like to see mass resignations as a, As a, you know, protest against Trump. But as we now know, those jobs will be filled by loyalists and podcast hosts. Yeah, I mean, the walking dead. Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, anybody who, Anybody who will serve Trump. My recommendation is, I, I've always believed that the more good people you can get into government, you know, the better the government is. And I hope, hope people will stay and resist, you know, in the military, in the Justice Department, anything involving the rule of law or the world order and not follow the President's desire to have a war against American citizens and occupy blue states and not to create a Justice Department where, if you're a friend of his, you can take $50,000 in a paper bag as a bribe and not only avoid prosecution, but retain a significant job in the administration. This is not America, and we need to see if we can recapture America. I don't think the Justice Department can be restored in less than a generation. It may take longer, and that assumes that at some point people wake up. I'm very pessimistic about the decline and where we're at. I'm not sure that people can hit the brakes. I think it's, you got to throw the parachute out there and hope that you land safely.
- [63:21]
Bill Kristol
Safely.
- [63:22]
Charlie Sykes
I also worry about that. I don't know that the Justice Department, I mean, it would take, I think, some type of outsider candidate to run on a mandate of cleaning up at Washington to do it. Because obviously, I think that the Democrats will be more well intentioned than Donald Trump. But if you're just a regular Democrat, you get back in there in 2029. It would be rational to say, I want to use the Justice Department to go after the people that are doing the crimes right now. And I would be for that, I think. And if I'm for that at the Bulwark, then who's going to be against that? And so I don't know how you. I think it's over. You said you're pessimistic. I feel like I'm even more pessimistic.
- [64:05]
Ty Cobb
Well, we should probably expand our group and have a therapy session. I would love some accountability at the conclusion of this, this. But I would be happy if it just ended a Nuremberg type session with, you know, Bondi and Hagseth and Gnome and others. I think that would be a wonderful event. On the other hand, I think America's got to figure out a way to unite, you know, a house divided. The language of that is, you know, a few hundred years old. And, but it's so true. And look at us now. I mean, we've never been more divided. We've never been more isolated in the world. We've never been, you know, we've never been reviled the way we are around the world. And, and, and internally, every institution that, you know, that sustained, you know, the American dream or the vision of America as the shining light on Hill is on fire and, and burning down. And that's in part by design. I mean, you know, the, the, the people that are, are implementing the 2025 strategy and the racist, violent approach to immigration that we have now as opposed to a measured, legalized process. They understand that if you can take away America's confidence in their institutions, it forces you to be true to your leader because there's no power left except in the way they're trying to accumulate it in the executive. So I think it's very destructive. And trying to rebuild it is just going to be hard, aren't?
- [65:38]
Charlie Sykes
Yeah, And I would also enjoy Nuremberg, but just even at a, at a smaller level, just like you're gonna have to clean out the people that were the hacks that were brought into these institutions. Right. And there are going to be, there are people that have done like crimes that are more mid level. Right. And I mean, like, how do you change the way that the DHS is treating people? Right. I don't have to completely change the policies around ICE and the federal government and all of that is, is an unimaginable undertaking. Kind of for me it is.
- [66:08]
Ty Cobb
On the other hand, I mean, it does highlight one of the problems we have, which is the dearth of true leaders out there to help us. I think historically, even 20 years ago, there were people out there of character and courage who could come up. Now, money sort of talks. These positions are largely bought through campaign contributions or otherwise. You know, we're not going to get there with Schumer and Jeffries. I mean, it's pretty weak sauce. There's really no democratic message and nobody coming forward. But you know, I mean, I guess my frustration is, I think if, if a Bashir or Mark Kelly or even a, you know, Gretchen Whitmer could be, could be anointed at this stage of the game, so you have a counterweight to the you know, tyrannical dictator that we're all enduring, occurring. And the Democrats could sort of have a debate with the country about, you know, what do you want? Do you want, you know, the America that we once had, where the world looked up to us and we, and we fought for democracy and freedom and civil rights, or do you want what's going on now domestically and internationally? I just don't see the Democrats, you know, doing anything helpful at the level at which we need them.
- [67:22]
Charlie Sykes
Woke. Ty Cobb is out here. You know, it's a racist authoritarian, and the Democrats need to fight harder. It is tell, I guess, that so many people that were around him and close to him come out of Trump's world sounding like you, sounding like they could be with the bulwark. In some ways, not being right does me no good, but it is noteworthy, like the folks that saw this up close and personal who are trying to sound the alarm.
- [67:46]
Ty Cobb
Yeah, I wish more of them would speak out.
- [67:49]
Charlie Sykes
Why do you think that is? Like you mentioned earlier, that he's going after revenge and you said you did nine hits yesterday or whatever. Why are you doing this? And there is no Pence, no McGann, no Kelly. Why are you doing it?
- [68:03]
Ty Cobb
That's a great question I ask myself sort of every day. You know, I'm doing it largely because I think I should. I did all those hits over last week, so it wasn't just yesterday. But, you know, I'm doing more now than, you know, I have historically, because I think the stakes are so high. I think these revenge prosecutions sort of pulled me out of the once or twice a week mode into, you know, almost every day now. Now I wish I wasn't doing this. I'd rather be at an Airstream, driving around the national parks out west or playing with my grandkids. But through circumstances that are historical and largely accidental, I'm in a position where I have spent time with Trump. I think I have a pretty earned assessment. And I've spent a lot of time in government in positions where, where the exercise of discretion was the paramount activity every day. And the guidelines on that discretion always had to do with is it legal, is it ethical, is it moral? And those questions are not being asked anymore by people in power.
- [69:18]
Charlie Sykes
I'm going to Catholic priest you for a second. It's not a sense of penance. You don't feel like you're doing your 10 Hail Marys by coming out and doing this?
- [69:25]
Ty Cobb
Oh, no, I, I, I mean, you know, no, not that, you know, as I, I, I Actually felt that the task that I was asked to perform, you know, was done in a way that was beneficial to the country and like I say, avoided any, you know, divisive legal fights during that process and, and got it done. And I left. I mean, I didn't, I wasn't there out of ambition. You know, I mean, I had other opportunities, but that's not why I was there. I went to do that one task and I left.
- [69:56]
Charlie Sykes
In some ways, the fact that it's not about penance actually speaks to the gravity of the situation. Right, right. That it is about the merits of the threats that are facing us and that you are looking at it and, and feel like not enough people are on, are on high alert.
- [70:13]
Ty Cobb
I think there are a lot of people who share my views who would be, you know, more perfect spokesperson people. You know, I wish they would, I wish they would get out there.
- [70:22]
Charlie Sykes
Did you hear from any of them? Do you get, do you get texts from not?
- [70:26]
Ty Cobb
Well, I do sometimes. I do sometimes. But, you know, for example, you know, a few years ago, General Kelly was very, you know, full throated. On the other hand, I don't know anybody who endured more and, you know, deserves, deserves his retirement. But people like that, I mean, you know, there are people out there, Mattis, you know, and, and Kelly and others who have condemned the President and talked about how dangerous he is for America. And I try to repeat things that they've said so that it's clear that they get credit for it and not me. But I'd love to see some mainstream Republicans come out and say the things they said the week after January 6th when they had a chance to put Trump in the rear view before they caved and, and let him back in. But more importantly now is I'd love it if Republicans came out and rejected what's going on. But I'd also love it if the Democrats got organized and had a message.
- [71:22]
Charlie Sykes
You're not hearing from the folks who agree. Are people pissed? Are you hearing from people that are like, shut the fuck up, Ty.
- [71:29]
Ty Cobb
I get a lot of that from.
- [71:30]
Charlie Sykes
Just regular folks at the grocery store or from your former colleagues.
- [71:36]
Ty Cobb
So not so much from my former college, not so much. I mean, some, yes, but not so much there. Yeah, I mean, people I grew up with, I grew up in a little town in western Kansas and people who've been lifelong friends. It's not for the faint of heart, but at the same time, I just think it's important.
- [71:55]
Charlie Sykes
All right, last thing you think it's important when you look out at all this. What do you feel like is the most acute threat? What is the thing that has you. You keeping an eye open at night?
- [72:07]
Ty Cobb
So I'm not sure I have a great perspective on that. So much. For me, I've got sort of a focus on the disintegration of the rule of law. And I do think that is, if not the greatest threat certainly among them, because historically, it's what's distinguished us from Third World countries and Pinochet's Chile and Stalin's Russia and Hitler's Germany and the Khmer Rouge. But, you know, I think the attacks on institutions, colleges, law firms, turning the Department of Justice into his own personal police and revenge force, I think those threats are eroding the rule of law at a pace we've never seen. And the distinction between us and tyranny is disappearing.
- [72:56]
Charlie Sykes
I lied. I have one more follow up to that, because here's the thing that keeps me up at night, that maybe you can tell me what you think about, because it's related to all that. They've put a lot of clowns in the FBI. But I worry when you look at what has happened with the intimidation efforts and these prosecutions of Comey and James, I've always felt like the thing that worries me is if they wanted to start doing this, there are a lot of ways that you can hassle and harass people before indicting them. And like a lot of powers, surveillance or otherwise, that the, you know, FBI and DOJ has, you said you're getting some calls from people in the FBI. Do you think that that is a fair worry as you start to look at the trajectory that these guys are on?
- [73:38]
Ty Cobb
Oh, very much so. Very much so. I mean, you know, I mean, the FBI has been decimated at the leadership level. You know, the number of agents that have been forced out is certainly in the hundreds. You know, some merely because they, you know, did a perfunctory task in connection with the serious investigations of Trump's refusal to peacefully allow the transfer of power and. And the 1:6 exercise and the classified documents case where, you know, unlike the indictments against Comey and James, you've got, you know, page after page of quotes from emails and documents and stuff that demonstrate those crimes were clearly committed. So I think we're eradicating the protections that America has, and the same thing's going on in the military, and that's, I think, equally serious, if not more so. I mean, I don't think we've ever been as isolated. We've never successfully united our enemies and offended our allies in a way that is going on now. And our safety, I mean, with Hegseth, including his wife, and meetings and phone calls and reporters from the Atlantic, it's ludicrous what he's up to, bringing 800 flag officers to town to talk about how his physical strength and exercise routine, it's ridiculous. But, yeah, I think the country's in great danger, and I think the military and the rule of law are probably the two things that bother me most.
- [75:09]
Charlie Sykes
All right, now, that is the way to end a Bulwark podcast that is in the spirit of the show. So I appreciate you very much, Ty. Thanks for coming on. And if you find yourself in New Orleans suburban, on me.
- [75:21]
Ty Cobb
All right, well, thanks so much. And I just want to say I can't tell you what a great service you perform by getting these conversations out there. And I hope people are actually listening and thinking about it.
- [75:33]
Charlie Sykes
We're doing our best. Thanks so much, Ty, and hope to see you in person sometime. And everybody else will be back here tomorrow for another edition of Bulwark Podcast. It's gonna be a banger. See y' all then. Peace.
- [75:43]
Musical Performer
Took a trip to San Francisco all our friends said we would try didn't work so I left for Fresno it was quite a scenic drive Pulled over to watch the children in the park we used to only worry for for them after dark I'm still looking for my own version of America One without the gun where the FL can freely fly no bombs in the sky Only fire when you and I collide it's just a dream I had in mind it's just a dream I had in my heart it's just a dream I had in mind I flew back to New York City Missed that Hudson river line Took a train up to Lake Placid that's another place in time where I used to go to drive ins and listen to the blues.
- [77:15]
Ty Cobb
So many.
- [77:16]
Musical Performer
Things that I think twice about before I do Now I'm still looking for my own version of America One without the gun where the flag can freely fly no bombs in the sky Only fireworks When you and I collide it's just a dream my head in my.
- [77:51]
Charlie Sykes
Heart.
- [77:54]
Musical Performer
It'S just a dream I had in my heart it's just a dream I had in my heart it's just a dream I had him.
- [78:19]
Charlie Sykes
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
- [78:25]
Chiquis
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- [79:16]
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