The Bulwark Podcast: "Bill Kristol and Ty Cobb: Recapturing America"

Date: October 13, 2025
Host: Tim Miller (filling in for Charlie Sykes)
Guests: Bill Kristol (Bulwark contributor), Ty Cobb (former Trump White House Special Counsel)

Overview

This episode of The Bulwark Podcast features two prominent guests—Bill Kristol and Ty Cobb—offering analysis and commentary on the state of American democracy, the ongoing political and legal controversies surrounding the Trump administration, protests in Chicago, and concerns about the rule of law and institutional decay. The episode blends news reaction, behind-the-scenes insight from inside the former Trump White House, and a spirited defense of liberal democratic values. The conversation is full of pointed critiques, reflections on historical echoes, and discussions about resistance and the future of American institutions.

Key Discussion Points

1. The Hostage Release in Gaza and Ongoing Middle East Crisis

• Bill Kristol expresses "mixed" emotions, highlighting the joy of families reunited with released hostages and the immense ongoing human cost on all sides:

  “Incredible joy ... but also terrible sadness. … It’s been a rough two years. … It’s good that there’s a ceasefire. It’s great that the hostages are back. … But an awful long way to go to get to something more solid and achievable.” (03:15)

• Consensus that recent “victory lap” rhetoric from the administration, and Jared Kushner's claimed successes, are premature.
  (04:10-04:35)

2. Protests, Federal Overreach, and the Use of Force

• Discussion of President Trump’s militarized federal interventions in cities such as Chicago and Portland, and speculation about invoking the Insurrection Act.
• Bill Kristol points out the lack of legal justification:

  “There is no insurrection, and that’s not true. ... It’s so ridiculous and so disproportionate ... It’s a real attempt at intimidation of the American people.” (05:40–06:55)

• The public’s and local officials’ resistance, as well as the peaceful, sometimes satirical character of the protests (e.g., costumes, inflatable frogs), is seen as sapping federal pretexts for crackdowns.
• Tim Miller and Kristol argue that the government's attempt to provoke and delegitimize peaceful protest is a deliberate strategy, but may be backfiring.
• Discussion of how labeling protests as “Hate America rallies” or “terrorist wing” of the Democratic Party is “Orwellian” and divorced from reality.

  “It is so insanely removed from the truth that ... I sort of wonder if they can pull this off.” – Bill Kristol (12:10)

• They note the contrast between the peacefulness of these protests and efforts to equate them with past unrest for political gain.

3. The Erosion of Institutional Norms and Targeting of Political Opponents

• In-depth segment with Ty Cobb, who condemns the ongoing prosecutions of former Trump administration targets like James Comey and Tish (“Tish”) James as acts of “pure vengeance” and an abuse of federal power.

  “Trump fundamentally is just crippled by his narcissism. ... Any revenge that he can take – those are the things that fuel that psychology.” – Ty Cobb (44:58)

• Cobb draws distinctions between the egregiousness of the frauds attributed to Trump and the “ticky tack” charges brought against his enemies, calling the latter “pure revenge.”
• Importance of not normalizing government use of prosecution for political retribution highlighted.

  "This is sort of so little about the law and so much about cruelty and intimidation." – Ty Cobb (51:16)

• Fear that chilling effects from these prosecutions will deter future officials from upholding their oaths or criticizing those in power.
• Cobb predicts that the cases against James and Comey will fall apart, but the process itself does harm.

  “It's so much about cruelty and intimidation … intended to quell any internal criticism …” (51:16)

4. The Fate and Role of Government Insiders

• Discussion of whether principled people should remain in government roles under a corrupt administration.
• Cobb advocates for “good people” to stay and resist from the inside rather than resign en masse, warning that otherwise jobs will be filled by “loyalists and podcast hosts.” (61:41)
• Both Miller and Cobb express deep pessimism about the ability to restore integrity to the Justice Department and federal institutions, predicting that even well-intentioned Democrats may be tempted to repurpose the same tools for retribution rather than reform.

5. Institutional Collapse, American Identity, and Rebuilding

• Both guests draw historical parallels to past abuses of power, lamenting the “house divided” state of America and the systematic undermining of trust in institutions.

  “Every institution that ... sustained ... the vision of America as the shining light on [the] hill is on fire and burning down. And that’s in part by design.” – Ty Cobb (64:04)

• Discussion of the lack of strong Democratic respresentatives with the appetite or credibility to counteract these threats.
• Miller: “Just even at a smaller level, you’re going to have to clean out the people that were the hacks that were brought into these institutions. … How do you change the way DHS is treating people? … It is an unimaginable undertaking.” (65:37)
• Cobb: “It does highlight one of the problems we have, which is the dearth of true leaders out there to help us.” (66:08)

6. Memorable Quotes & Moments

• Kristol on protest messaging:

  “At the no Kings protest, ... it went out of its way to be patriotic. ... They genuinely thought of themselves as defending ... American principles ... against Trump’s authoritarianism.” (11:41)

• Miller on political smears:

  “The Hate America side is the side calling people that are exercising their First Amendment rights terrorists.” (10:59)

• Ty Cobb on working under Trump:

  “I was never a Trump supporter, and quite the opposite. ... I thought it was a very, very dangerous time for the country.” (53:35)

• On the breakdown of rule of law:

  “The distinction between us and tyranny is disappearing.” – Ty Cobb (72:56)

• On optimism and student activism:

  “I was struck that [college students] were sensible ... they were nice visits and as I say, they maybe a little artificially cheered me up ... the kids aren’t ... supporting Donald J. Trump ... If only the kids had voted in this last election, it would have been a lot better.” – Bill Kristol (40:15)

7. Marjorie Taylor Greene and the Republican Messaging Divide

• Miller highlights Greene's unexpectedly sharp critique of the Trump administration’s failure to help its working-class base, noting that her plain-spoken economic indictment is “good messaging and also correct.” (34:42–35:00)
• Bill Kristol jokes about the possibility of a Marjorie Taylor Greene-Bulwark crossover while both acknowledge that MAGA elites are generally too afraid to criticize Trump directly.

8. Reflections and Closing Notes

• Personal anecdotes:
  Kristol recalls being hit with a chocolate cream pie at Earlham College two decades ago, using the story to contrast with today's threats to free speech and protest.
• The pod ends with Kristol and Miller both expressing a desire for mainstream Republicans and Democrats to step up, stop ceding moral ground, and organize a coherent message in defense of democracy.
• Ty Cobb, when asked why he speaks out:

  “I’m doing it largely because I think I should. … I think the stakes are so high. … Now I wish I wasn’t doing this—I'd rather be … playing with my grandkids. But … I have spent time with Trump, ... I think I have a pretty earned assessment.” (68:03)

Notable Timestamps

• 03:15 – Bill Kristol on the bittersweet news from Gaza and the broader civil and human costs of the conflict.
• 05:40 – Kristol critiques Trump’s threats to use the Insurrection Act.
• 11:41 – Kristol describes the patriotic character of the “no Kings” protests.
• 44:58 – Ty Cobb’s summary: “Trump ... is just crippled by his narcissism ... any revenge that he can take.”
• 51:16 – Cobb on cruelty as the political and prosecutorial method of the current administration.
• 61:41 – Cobb urges public servants to stay and resist, rather than resign.
• 64:04 – Cobb on the deliberate destruction of American institutions.
• 68:03 – Cobb’s motivation for public speaking and warning.
• 72:56 – Cobb on the disintegration of the rule of law: “The distinction between us and tyranny is disappearing.”

Tone

The tone is urgent, at times grim, laced with dry humor and self-awareness, and occasionally punctuated by moments of guarded optimism (especially regarding youth activism). Both guests exhibit deep worry about American institutions, but retain a certain fighting spirit and hope that public awareness and organized resistance can still make a difference.

Listen for Yourself

This episode is essential for those seeking:

• Insider legal and political analysis from an ex-Trump lawyer gone vocal critic
• Thoughtful perspectives on protest politics and the defense of civic norms
• Warnings about the fragile state of American institutions—and what can be done about it

For further listening:

• Segment with Ty Cobb begins at 43:52
• Reflections on students and optimism around 40:08
• Protest discussion from 05:40 onward

“Trying to reach [the MAGA base] is insane. … That party’s gone. ... It's all MAGA now.”

– Ty Cobb (52:37)