The Bulwark Podcast

Episode: Bill Kristol: Fake News on '60 Minutes'
Date: November 3, 2025
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Bill Kristol

Overview

This episode centers around Donald Trump’s appearance on 60 Minutes, the nature of his persistent misinformation, and the media’s handling of his falsehoods. Tim Miller and Bill Kristol break down Trump's interview, delve into topics ranging from media complicity, corruption scandals, the Insurrection Act, and threats to democracy, to domestic politics and the latest polling landscape. They wrap up with timely commentary on New York’s mayoral race and potential anti-democratic moves by House Republicans.

The tone is conversational, sardonic, and occasionally exasperated, reflecting the ongoing struggles of defending liberal democracy in the Trump era.

Key Discussion Points

The 60 Minutes Trump Interview and Media Complicity

• Frustration with Interviewing Trump

  • Tim expresses disappointment with 60 Minutes’ handling of Trump:

    "Trump knows how to work these people. It's a little frustrating... are you not worried about the appearance of corruption..."
    (03:00)

  • Both agree that journalists often allow Trump to frame the narrative and don't sufficiently confront blatant falsehoods.

• Trump’s 'Fake News' Lawsuit Claims

  • Trump, unsolicited, claims 60 Minutes paid him off over supposed 'fake news' that was 'election-changing'—even though he won.
  • The hosts ridicule the absurdity:

    "If I would have gone along with this bullshit that this was an election-changing edit by 60 minutes... it's unclear how that exists since Donald Trump won the election. Right?"
    (03:35)

• Does Trump Believe His Own Lies?

  • Bill references Seinfeld:

    "It's not a lie if you believe it."
    (04:46)

  • Argues that Trump may have internalized some fictions, making them more dangerous.

• Media’s Missed Opportunity

  • They highlight how outlets like 60 Minutes don’t adequately address the public consequences of Trump's sustained election lies, making media complicit by default.

Trump’s Policy Evasions and Corruption

• Incoherent Policy Responses

  • Miller notes Trump’s inability to respond substantively to basic policy questions (e.g., on cost of living). Instead, Trump pivots to unrelated issues like cashless bail:

    "When I saw that clip, I was like, okay, I don't... Maybe he was referencing something previous. And then I went and watched the whole thing. And eventually he does come back around... blames Biden, offers no solutions."
    (06:54)

• Changpeng Zhao Pardon and Crypto Corruption

  • The duo discusses Trump’s denial of knowing the crypto billionaire he pardoned, despite his children’s direct business ties and the size of the deal ($2B).

    "I don't know who he is as kind of the all purpose... even though you literally pardoned this guy."
    (09:42)

  • Bill observes that the scale of Trump’s corruption might make it harder for pundits and politicians to communicate, but it’s an avenue Democrats should keep pursuing.

• The Dangers of Trump’s Normalized Corruption

  • Miller:

    "If Donald Trump Jr. and Eric Trump can figure out how crypto works, you can figure out how crypto works."
    (11:40)

  • They conclude that Americans are at risk of accepting an unprecedented level of presidential familial self-dealing.

Authoritarianism, Insurrection Act, and Venezuela

• Trump’s Ominous Comments on Insurrection Act

  • Trump claims he can use the Insurrection Act unchecked:

    "Trump said he could use the Insurrection Act. Nobody could stop him if he wants... Judges couldn’t stop him. I just thought that was kind of ominous that he brought that up."
    (13:11)

  • Bill:

    "He yearns to use the Insurrection Act and he totally misunderstands it. Needless to say, it would be bad if he used it... he thinks it means he can suspend all law."
    (15:25)

• Venezuela and the New Era of War Without Congress

  • Tim and Bill outline how Trump’s administration has ignored the War Powers Act in its Caribbean bombing campaign, passing the 60-day limit:

    "Today, past the 60 day mark of the bombing campaign. The first vote that we took out was September 2nd. Today's November 3rd. And that means that they've officially broken the War Powers Act."
    (19:09)

  • Bill:

    "The degree to which he repeats these things that are just manifestly absurd… it's more dangerous than just lying."
    (25:20)

Polls, Political Climate, and Democratic Messaging

• Voters Dislike Both Parties, but Still Prefer Democrats

  • Miller highlights a poll:

    "The same people in that poll are saying, I have a negative view of the Democrats, but I'm going to be voting for them anyway next year. And I think that's pretty telling..."
    (29:00)

• Democrats’ Main Task: Be Strong, Focus on Trump

  • Bill underscores the need for Democrats to sharpen their anti-Trump message, as approval ratings for Trump are historically the best midterm predictor:

    "The single best thing the Democrats can do is get him to 40 or 38 over the next 12 months."
    (31:09)

• Coalition Management and the Problem of Fecklessness

  • Miller suggests internal party fights hurt Democrats more than policy disputes—showing strength and resolve is what their coalition craves.

New York Mayoral Race and Democratic “Wokeness”

• Hesitance to Back Progressive Candidates

  • Miller and Kristol critique high-profile Democrats (especially Hillary Clinton) for refusing to endorse left-leaning nominee Zoran Mumdani, fearing a repeat of the “radical left” label.

    "This is why the Democrats are so fucking bad. What is that answer?"
    (41:47)

  • Miller laments establishment Democrats’ lack of backbone, which only serves to radicalize progressives.

• Republicans Threatening to Block Duly Elected Officials

  • GOP is exploring the use of the 14th Amendment’s insurrection clause to bar Mandani from office, despite previously opposing its use against Trump:

    "House Republicans are exploring ways to prevent Zoran Mamdani from being sworn in... under the insurrection clause..."
    (51:02)

• Deeper Threats to Democracy

  • Bill:

    "It shows their deep contempt for democracy and it fits in with the redistricting. It fits in with the voter suppression. It fits in with all the talk about 26 and 28..."
    (53:28)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Trump’s “Not a Lie if You Believe It” Defense

  "It's not a lie if you believe it." – Bill Kristol referencing Seinfeld (04:46)

• On Media Failing to Confront Trump

  "You'd feel like there'd be a journalistic obligation to kind of discuss that a little bit, right?" – Tim Miller (05:33)

• On Cashless Bail and Incoherence

  "What is cashless bail doing in there? Is that if he hears that, he hears cost and it triggers something in his mind about... cashless bail has got up a lot." – Bill Kristol (07:43)

• On the Difficulty of Explaining Trump’s Corruption

  "The corruption thing... it's not like he stole $120,000... it's such a scale of billions... that it could break through." – Bill Kristol (10:13)

• On Use of the Insurrection Act

  "The degree to which he's internalized a deep desire to be a dictator, I'm going to not sugarcoat. This is what you see there. Right? Don't you think?" – Bill Kristol (16:20)

• On Authoritarian Drift

  "War on drugs, war on immigrants, war in Venezuela. It's all kind of a package. And ignore all the laws that might constrain you." – Bill Kristol (21:51)

• On Democrats’ Messaging Deficit

  "What Democratic voters want is... for the Democrats to show some cojones and fight and be tougher and demonstrate some leadership and strength in this moment." – Tim Miller (31:25)

• On the GOP’s Willingness to Upend Democracy

  "They so disregard the will of the actual voters... they're just going to what, throw that (result) out? But that shows their deep contempt for democracy..." – Bill Kristol (53:28)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:00–03:00: Banter, daylight saving time, Trump’s 60 Minutes interview setup
• 03:00–06:05: Breakdown of Trump’s falsehoods about the 2020 election and his 'fake news' narrative
• 06:05–08:15: Trump’s evasive and disconnected policy responses
• 08:15–12:56: Pardons, crypto corruption, and Democrats’ missed opportunities to hit back
• 13:11–16:20: Trump’s openly authoritarian ideas—Insurrection Act, ICE, law enforcement
• 19:09–25:20: War Powers Act, bombing campaign in Caribbean/Venezuela, decline of Congressional authority
• 29:00–32:44: Polls, Democratic messaging, and 2026 midterm strategy
• 41:27–47:59: NY mayoral race, Democratic infighting over endorsements, and the risk of feeding right-wing narratives
• 51:02–55:16: Republicans’ anti-democratic maneuvers, threats to seat elected officials, 14th Amendment gamesmanship
• 55:45–56:03: Administrative delays for elected Democrats as a warning for 2026

Conclusion

Miller and Kristol conclude with a sense of urgency: Democrats must focus on undermining Trump’s credibility, show resolve, and prepare to push back against escalating anti-democratic Republican tactics. Across the episode, the pair emphasize the importance of not normalizing corruption and authoritarian tendencies—while injecting humor and the occasional pop culture reference to stay sane in the current political climate.