Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t

Summary

The Bulwark Podcast: Bill Kristol on "Fake Nicey-Nicey Sht"**

Episode Title: Bill Kristol: Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t
Release Date: December 16, 2024
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Bill Kristol

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Introduction

In this episode of The Bulwark Podcast, host Tim Miller engages in a candid and insightful discussion with political commentator Bill Kristol. Titled "Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t," the conversation delves into the ramifications of corporate capitulation in the face of political pressure, the evolving dynamics within the Republican Party, and the broader implications for American democracy.

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ABC News' Defamation Settlement with Donald Trump

The episode opens with a critical examination of ABC News' recent $15 million settlement in a defamation lawsuit filed by Donald Trump. Tim Miller highlights the controversy surrounding the network's reporting, where George Stephanopoulos reportedly referred to Trump as being "adjudicated for sexual assault" during a civil suit verdict.

Notable Quote:

"This kind of, as you say, preemptive capitulation is just terrible."
— Bill Kristol [02:30]

Kristol criticizes ABC News for what he perceives as a premature and unnecessary settlement, arguing that it sets a dangerous precedent. He expresses concerns about the intimidation effect such lawsuits may have on media outlets and individuals who wish to hold powerful figures accountable.

Impact on Free Speech: Kristol emphasizes that the settlement could create a chilling effect, discouraging honest discourse and investigative journalism. He warns that corporate giants like Disney, with vast legal resources, capitulating in such cases may embolden figures like Trump to leverage the legal system as a tool for intimidation.

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Corporate Capitulation and Its Consequences

The conversation shifts to the broader theme of corporate capitulation. Tim Miller and Bill Kristol discuss how major corporations are seemingly tucking their tails in the face of political pressure, prioritizing survival over transparency and accountability.

Notable Quote:

"The chilling effect element of this is really staggering."
— Tim Miller [05:27]

Kristol draws parallels to actions taken by authoritarian figures like Viktor Orban in Hungary, highlighting the potential for widespread suppression of dissent if corporations continue to bow to political demands. He underscores the importance of maintaining a free press that does not fear government retribution.

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Mitt Romney's Endorsement and the Republican Party's Future

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to Mitt Romney's recent endorsement remarks, where he aligns himself with the MAGA wing of the Republican Party. This marks a departure from his previous stance and raises questions about the party's direction.

Notable Exchange:

Jake Tapper: "You could not have less respect for somebody than long ago."
Mitt Romney: "MAGA is the Republican Party and Donald Trump is the Republican Party today." [11:35-12:20]

Tim Miller expresses frustration over Romney's shift, feeling that it undermines earlier criticisms of Trump and J.D. Vance. Kristol agrees, labeling the endorsement as a capitulation that invalidates past arguments against Trump's leadership and the ideologies he represents.

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Democratic Party's Internal Dynamics and Oversight Committee Leadership

The discussion transitions to the Democratic Party's internal struggles, particularly regarding leadership within oversight committees. Tim Miller brings up Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (AOC) potentially spearheading the committee, juxtaposed with more traditional figures like Gerry Connolly.

Notable Quote:

"My instinct is to think, why not do AOC?"
— Bill Kristol [31:13]

Kristol shows tentative support for AOC leading the oversight committee, believing her aggressive stance could be beneficial in challenging the Trump administration. However, he acknowledges potential reservations among moderates who may be uncomfortable with her dynamic approach.

Tim Miller shares similar sentiments, advocating for a more assertive Democratic oversight presence to counteract the current administration's tactics. Both agree that while AOC brings passion and visibility, there are concerns about balancing her boldness with effective governance.

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Bernie Sanders on the Rise of Oligarchy

The podcast also features a segment discussing Bernie Sanders' remarks on the growing oligarchic tendencies within American society. Sanders warns of the concentration of wealth and power among billionaires, drawing parallels to oligarchical systems in other countries.

Notable Quote:

"I don't think it's quite the same in both parties and I think honestly it's the political power side of it that's most scary."
— Bill Kristol [27:33]

Kristol concurs with Sanders, highlighting the Democratic Party's acknowledgment of wealth inequality as a pressing issue. He contrasts this with the Republican approach, which he views as more aligned with oligarchical and authoritarian tendencies, particularly through alliances with figures like Elon Musk and Donald Trump.

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Final Thoughts and Broader Implications

As the episode wraps up, Tim Miller and Bill Kristol reflect on the state of American politics. They express concern over the apparent alignment of major corporations and political figures with authoritarian practices, fearing significant long-term damage to democratic institutions and societal norms.

Notable Quote:

"We're going down. We're going down."
— Bill Kristol [33:53]

Kristol emphasizes the urgent need for vigilance and proactive measures to safeguard democratic principles against the encroaching influence of oligarchic power structures. The conversation serves as a clarion call for both the media and political institutions to resist capitulation and uphold the values of free speech and accountability.

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Conclusion

In "Fake Nicey-Nicey Sh**t," Bill Kristol provides a sobering analysis of the intersection between corporate behavior, political pressure, and the erosion of democratic safeguards. Through thoughtful dialogue, the episode underscores the challenges facing liberal democracy and the imperative to confront and counteract authoritarian tendencies within both major political parties and corporate entities.

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Note: Advertisements, musical interludes, and non-content sections from the transcript have been omitted to focus on the substantive discussions between Tim Miller and Bill Kristol.

Transcript

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Lights are going up, snow is falling down. There's a feeling of goodwill around town. It could only mean one thing. McRib is here. People throwing parties, ugly sweaters everywhere, stockings hung up by the chimney with care. It could only mean one thing.

[Bill Kristol]

McRib is here at participatingmcdonald's for a limited time.

[Tim Miller]

Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. It is Monday when you're listening to this. So we have Bill Kristol. It is Sunday and we're taping it. I'm hangry. I'm quite hangry actually. Haven't been able to eat all day. Got to clean out my whole system because I have one of those middle aged men procedures tomorrow. And so, you know, if J.D. vance starts shooting at the drones or some other nominee has creeped on a woman for the cabinet and like that all gets announced Monday morning. You'll have to wait for my fresh take on Tuesday. So me and Bill, Bill and I are both working through ailments for you on a Monday. How you doing, Bill?

[Bill Kristol]

I'm doing fine, thanks, Tim. Good luck with everything tomorrow and we'll.

[Tim Miller]

I'm gonna be fine.

[Bill Kristol]

It'll be fine.

[Tim Miller]

I'm gonna be fine.

[Bill Kristol]

We'll do our best. Here to. I guess there was kind of enough news to talk about. Even if we're short of whatever happens in the 12 hours until Monday morning.

[Tim Miller]

Hold down the fort. There is enough news. The theme of the show today is going to be pre capitulation and people's just total unwillingness to buck up for the fight ahead of us. It begins with our friends at ABC News. The backstory on this for people who haven't watched it closely is I guess George Stephanopoulos talked about how Trump was found liable for rape and technically he was adjudicated as for sexual assault in a civil suit. And the judge in rendering the verdict on that did essentially say, did say that colloquially. What we're talking about here is rape. The judge said that during the judge's verdict, but it was not technically the case based on the actual verdict. So Trump sued ABC over this and ABC settled this defamation lawsuit for $15 million. And I just think this is going to have real ramifications. And I guess we'll just start there with your opening thoughts on that, Bill.

[Bill Kristol]

It's really terrible. I mean the knock on effects, the intimidation effects going forward. I mean this was a very. The lawyers I've talked to for whatever it's worth, and I think this is the consensus Trump has lost many lawsuits like this. You don't have to show that every word you say on a television show or on a podcast is literally absolutely correct. You have to show that you. First, it's not clear that Trump was defamed. I mean, people have never heard this charge before. What are the damages to Trump? But leaving that aside, you have to. Would have to show what is it? Reckless disregard or, you know, that has to be sort of like Stephanopoulos was cautioned timidus before the show. Don't say the word rape. But he said it. If that's in the definition documents, I doubt it is. Then maybe ABC was right to cave and pay $15 million to the Trump library, which doesn't exist yet, I guess, and a million dollars of legal fees. But this kind of, as you say, preemptive capitulation is just terrible. I mean, Disney has a very big legal department. They have access to extremely good law firms. If they felt they could defend this, I think every other, not just broadcast entity, but other places that have people who are discussing Trump on any medium. I'm thinking about university councils. The chilling effect will be very great, which is the whole point of these civil lawsuits. And it does remind one, I think some smart people said this a few months ago, a few weeks ago, when we were all correctly, very upset about Cash Patel at the FBI. It's not only the criminal things he could do from the FBI, it's the civil lawsuits that Trump and Elon Musk and Peter Thiel and everyone can fund to try to bankrupt people, intimidate people. And they've already gone after our friend Olivia Troy, and they've gone after others. And I don't know, I worry that now it's going to be just open the floodgates. I will also point out, finally, that it turns out that Susie Wiles, the incoming White House chief of staff, had dinner with the. The head of ABC News Monday night at Mar a Lago.

[Tim Miller]

Yo is Deborah O'Connell, the Disney executive who directly oversees ABC News dined with Susie Wiles in Palm beach last Monday. To me, this is just, I mean, and we talked a little bit of this with Dan Applebaum on Friday. Just another example of these big, powerful corporations deciding that it's just not worth it to draw any additional attention onto ourselves. We know that Trump is, is capricious. We know that he's vengeful. So let's try to just survive the four years. We'll tuck our tail between our legs, we'll mind our P's and Q's. There's a. There's no evidence that it's going to work. And in a world where, you know, you have corporate control over some of these media institutions like this, like, as you said, like, the chilling effect element of this is really staggering. Like, right now, you can't not assume that people in private conversations who go and speak about this stuff on the media and go and speak about Trump, especially people that aren't wealthy, that don't have the resources of Disney, might be like, it's just not worth leveling criticism if it's going to bankrupt me.

[Bill Kristol]

I was in touch with a scholar like Ann Applebaum, a different person, but a scholar of European politics and of Hungary. Orban did a lot of this in Hungary. And of course, Trump's tried to do it over the years. The American system isn't that friendly to defamation suits for public figures, and he's lost almost everyone. But Orban shut down plenty, gain control or certainly intimidated opposition media in Hungary. And one, I've been saying, you've been saying, I think, well, US isn't hungry. Let's not overdo this. It's not gonna be that easy to intimidate everyone in the US and use the legal system in the US the way Orban used it in Hungary. But here we are. And again, this isn't even a Trump appointed judge doing anything. This is, this is the company again, not just going into hiding a little bit, maybe dragging out the case and not making a robust defense of free speech. This is conspicuously and visibly paying up before the inauguration. I mean, this is paying protection money or whatever. And it just, the message sends to everyone else is not only do you have to not offend Trump, you need to pony up. And indeed, aren't they ponying up for the inaugural committee? Now, all these billionaires, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Several have committed a million, Zuckerberg, others. And Benioff, you say, like the protection racket element of this, right? And it just ties all together, like, Disney was going to win this case, Right? And so to do it so ostentatiously, right? Like, oh, we're going to contribute to your presidential library, sir. Like, let us go down on our net, us kiss the ring. And can we contribute an additional wing to your palace that honors you? Can we put a statue. The whole thing is preposterous. And just back to the original point, just because I want to get it exactly right on what Judge Kaplan said about the rape. He said this, the finding that Ms. Carol failed to prove that she was raped within the meaning of New York penal law does not mean that she failed to prove that Mr. Trump raped her, as many people commonly understand the word rape. So, again, like Stephanopoulos, I think runs afoul of this by using adjudicated. But it's a very fine line. And the standard, as you mentioned, for these public figures to defame in America, it's very different in Britain and other places. But like in America, the standard of defamation is so high, it's really hard to imagine that they would have lost this. And so, like, the manner in which they're doing it is just really horrible.

[Bill Kristol]

Incidentally, if they had lost, they would have lost. What would the damages have been? Would not have been much more than $15 million. I mean, how much damage did this interview with Nancy Mays do to Donald Trump's reputation, given that he's. He lost the civil case against De Jean Carroll? You don't have to make a big deal. Disney doesn't have to go to soapbox. ABC doesn't go to soapbox. They just say, look, we're gonna let this go to the judge. We're gonna take depositions. You know, we want this. We hope it works out quickly. And we're not trying to make a point here, but we defend our people when they say something in good faith. They didn't have to grandstand on behalf of free speech. But again, this is a whole different world from just quietly litigating the case and maybe giving a million dollars to the Trump inaugural fund. Right. This is a very conspicuous, unnecessary, preemptive collapse on a core First Amendment issue.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, very conspicuous as the Republicans against Trump Twitter feed that posted. I prefer to live in a country where the government fears the free press, not where the press fears the government. I thought that was really well put.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Because the first part of that is also an important category. Now, that is another downstream effect of this Trump win is that Republicans, and frankly, not just Republicans, you're seeing this from Eric Adams, and I'm sure you'll start to see this from some Democrats now because of the world in which we live and because of the fragmentation of the media environment, the essential view of politicians now, I think going forward is going to be just ride out the storm. Who cares about this? Like, how much could it hurt me for the media to write about this? I think we're seeing this right now with Hegseth as a prime example of the cabinet officials. Any kind of media firestorm of this nature previously would have led to just the quiet stepping down of the nominee and replacement with somebody else. It is, I think, dangerous to the short, medium term of our body politic if you are in a place where both of those things are true. The politicians have stopped being worried that they're going to be held accountable. And the press, who ostensibly exists to hold accountable, is now panicked that they'll be targeted. And so they're not even going to do their job.

[Bill Kristol]

For me personally, just reading about it last night, I felt the worst I've felt since November 5th. I felt the most ominous fire bell in the night or whatever term you want since November 5th. Obviously, the appointments of, the nominations of Patel and other things are pretty bad and ominous and other things Trump and as people have said. But I felt like this was really a moment. It's not just that they're going to try to do things in the government they shouldn't do. It's that the whole what's not the government? Corporate America, Civil society, if you want to use a fancy term, is preemptively capitulating. You can have a government that's bad and that's bad, obviously. But if everyone else is kind of not going along with their attempts to intimidate, there's probably certainly some ways, limited damage they could do and other ways they could do great damage, which is the government of the United States. But still, this really, I think, just takes it to another level in terms of civic or social damage.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. And the bad news came right on the heels of the announcement that they want to make standard time permanent. So it was really, it was really ominous. 24 hours.

[Bill Kristol]

Where are you on that? I don't.

[Tim Miller]

Permanent daylight saving. It's my number one issue. Okay. This is. I was just.

[Bill Kristol]

Did you lose or for you.

[Tim Miller]

We did a whole YouTube video on this, which you can watch, but since then I saw a graphic and it's like in June now with permanent standard time, the sun will be coming up at 4:15am this is insane. Nobody wants this. We like our evening sun. Okay? We're going to move forward. While I'm hangry, while I'm upset about daylight saving and ABC and Deborah O'Connell. Mitt Romney was on State of the Union this morning. God love him. I just, I want to. I just kind of want to strangle him. I mean, I want to strangle him like you want to strangle a loved one, though, you know, just like. What? Why? Let's just listen. Let's listen to Met and Jake Tapper.

[Jake Tapper]

You said in an interview a few months ago that, quote, there's A good chance that the Republican Party is going to be, is going to need to be rebuilt or reoriented and that you want to have a voice in the post Trump Republican Party. Do you think that there's still, do you still think there's going to be a post Trump Republican Party or is MAGA now the Republican Party?

[Mitt Romney]

Oh, MAGA is the Republican Party and Donald Trump is the Republican Party today. And if you were to ask me who the nominee will be in 2028, I think it'll be J.D. vance. All right. He's smart, well spoken, part of the MAGA movement.

[Jake Tapper]

You said something pretty harsh about him a few months ago, though. You could not have less respect for somebody than long ago.

[Mitt Romney]

I'm not going to rehash history and we've worked together in the Senate since then. But, but I, you know that that is what the Republican Party is.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, so this is obviously enraging because it was the whole premise of him not endorsing during the campaign was that he wanted to have an impact on the Republican Party going forward. Now he's already conceded that that's over because Donald Trump won. I don't, I don't really know that, Mitts, given what we know about the election at this point, that Mets endorsement would have mattered one way or the other. That said, couldn't hurt. And the thing that bugs me the most about this, though, is just going back to this capitulation. It's like, okay, well, it is what it is. I'm backing off my comments about how disgusted and horrified I am about Donald Trump and J.D. vance. And even though I'm leaving the Senate now, I'm going to make nice and we're going to hopefully these are smart guys. They're going to be able to figure out what purpose is served by this. What is the point of this?

[Bill Kristol]

God forbid he actually announced that he's going to try to do something. Maybe not within the Republican Party because I share his pessimism about that, but in other areas to build up a non MAGA agenda for the country, a central liberal centrist agenda, or recruit young candidates to, I mean, something. Right? I mean, he's just going to, if he wants to retire, I guess that's fine. But again, why doesn't he retire and just stand by his previous comments? Does he really have to say, well, I've worked with JD Vance since then and stuff. Really? What have they been working on there in the Senate? I don't know.

[Tim Miller]

It's just this false hope, right? Like on the one Hand. The false hope annoys me. Like this idea that, oh, we're going to be able to work with these guys and, you know, who knows, it's better not to, you know, ruffle feathers. So let's just kind of see how it plays out. Like, that part is annoying to me in particular because I just, I don't think that's going to be true. But more, it completely kind of invalidates all the arguments against Trump and Vance that he made. Like, he made these deep moral and ethical arguments about Donald Trump, the man, about the way that J.D. vance has humiliated himself about how the illiberalness of their ideology and like to just turn around then and be like, well, you know, they won, so we'll see how it goes. It makes people wonder, like, well, were you genuine before about when you made those arguments? Because how does A meet B, you know, and when you say what you want about Liz Cheney, when you see her doing interviews now, you know, she's not backing off anything that she said before. And you can throw in a sentence at the end that's like, well, I hope to be wrong. I hope to be wrong. Whatever. Great. I hope to be wrong. We're not wrong, though. And we've already been proven right once, we're going to be proven right again. And so why it almost plays into their hands, right, by saying, see, these guys didn't even believe it. It was just rhetoric. It was just political rhetoric.

[Bill Kristol]

You sent me a couple of quotes from Romney. I hadn't watched anything this morning and hadn't even known he was on these shows. And the other one, I think was that you have to admit that Trump has brought in the middle class and the working class to the Republican Party, something like that. And I read that just as I had finished reading a New York Times article, big New York Times article, which is online, I assume, in today's print Times. Eli Zaslow, the reporter, I think, was from Georgia. Very moving about a guy who's been here since he was 5 years old. Family, hard worker, churchgoer, wonderful person, undocumented. His mother came across the border to work in Georgia. She also seems to have been. Maybe both parents, I can't remember, were hard workers. He married a girl from Rome, has a father in law who voted for Trump. And it's caused some strains. And because he's very worried, they're very worried about him being deported. And they're spending money on lawyers. They don't have that much extra. Any extra money. And it's causing, you know, just terrible Psychological distress on them and their little kids. The father in law is sort of, well, I'm, you're not the kind of person they want to deport. And so the, according to the article, the 40 year old or so DACA recipient dreamer type says, well, I don't know, he says he wants to deport us and don't we have to, I have to prepare for that in case it were to happen. What do I do? Can I get a lawyer? But it takes out immigration system so terrible. And he's like the God, the father in law is this big Trump supporter, is a belligerent. They're not going to deport you, they're going to deport you. They're going to have to come through me, which I found particularly, I've got to say. I don't mean to, you know, these are individuals and I don't know, maybe the quote was out of context. I found particularly infuriating, I must say. You know what? They don't have to come to him. And if they, if ICE wants to deport him, unfortunately he's not going to. I mean he's a kind of a prepper, he's got guns and all this kind of stuff. So I don't know, maybe he will get in a shootout with some ICE agents, God forbid. But I mean it's just the whole thing. But anyway, it's a very moving piece about this, about this one DACA recipient. There are 10 million of them. So I'd read that. And look, how did this guy, the father in law come to vote for Trump? And so he describes why he did. It's all MAGA lies, MAGA conspiracy theories, wild exaggerations playing on anxieties that a lot of immigrants have come into that part of Georgia. They work in chicken processing plants and so forth. It's caused some tensions and problems. But again, sort of like the Ohio thing, wild exaggeration of the problems. He seems in his own life to be doing okay so far as one can tell. And he's got a son in law who is actually a DACA recipient. Mitt Romney sort of admires Trump. You could sort of tell from that clip, you know, for bringing in the working class and the middle class. But an awful lot of those people he brought in, he brought in not because he explained that his policies would really help them economically. He brought them in by appealing to, worse than appealing to, by magnifying and capitalizing on and amplifying whatever xenophobia and bigotry was there already. I was angry after Reading it, you.

[Tim Miller]

Should be angry and admires is a good word because you sense this in the Rondy interview, that there is like a you got to hand it to him kind of thing, right? Like I ran for president, they rejected me. Like Trump must be doing something that I wish I could have done. And like that is the thing that is the most dispiriting about all of it and a little bit enraging. It's like if good old fashioned Mormon church going milk drinking, follow the rules, Mitt Romney cannot just internalize that. You know, sometimes people are rewarded for doing things that are wrong, which is, you know, the basic moral of every children's book. And I'm sure plenty of. Plenty of Mormon texts.

[Bill Kristol]

Plenty of adult books.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, plenty of adult books. Like I don't I. And you know, and you got to hand it to him now and just say, all right, well, Trump got this one right because he more successfully preyed on people's grievances and bigotries than I did. It makes me upset.

[Bill Kristol]

Also, just one last, the kind of the looking up to Trump, which is very common. Well, look what he did now. He. It's impressive. Three times nominee, twice winning. Mitt Romney got 47. A little more maybe percent of the vote against Barack Obama finishing his first term pretty brought the country back from the depths of a terrible recession. Donald Trump got 49.8 or something percent of the vote against Kamala Harris, succeeding Joe Biden. I'm going to just stipulate that Barack Obama was a stronger candidate than Kamala Harris, having only 100 days to run after Biden pulled out. Why does Romney even feel defensive? He ran as good a race as Trump. I mean, just empirically, you know, he got 2% less, 2 1/2% less. It's not like, you know, he was humiliating, lost the football game 52 to 0. Right. I mean, he did a little bit less well than Trump. I don't know. I just. So the whole kind of semi admiration and semi almost awe for Trump is very. That is, it helps Trump, though, a great deal.

[Tim Miller]

Here's one more. Joe Biden posted this over the weekend. I have no idea why he wrote this. I pray to God that the President Elect throws away Project 2025. I think it would be an economic disaster. I believe the only way for a president to lead America is to lead all of America again. What is this? What is this? Why are we doing this? Why are you doing a smiling picture with Donald Trump? Why are you doing a post about how you hope that he will throw away Project 2025. He's appointed all the people that did Project 2025 to the administration, and then you're singling out the economic part of it. What are you even talking about? It's just this fake nicey nicey shit with Trump is endemic. It is like, from the Disney people to the sitting president to Romney, they're all doing this.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, totally. I like fake nicey nicey shit. That should be the title of this, of this podcast that we. We denounce Fake nice shit.

[Tim Miller]

What? Oh, we're hopeful. We pray. Maybe Donald Trump will turn the corner. Year nine, he'll throw away Project. What? What are you talking about?

[Bill Kristol]

His president. He's sort of. Sort of still head of the Democratic Party. Not really, but he could, in fact, say some things that would remind people of how dangerous he's been. He knows the executive branch better than anyone else. Well, sort of. Or at least once did, and still know some of it. He could say a few things that would make Trump's life more difficult, I should think, going forward and show. I mean, I don't know. I tweeted after reading that New York Times piece. I was so tweeted, I X'd and blue skied after reading that Times piece because I was so. Just furious, really, and moved by the piece. Very well reported. I said, I don't know. Can Biden not pardon all the DACA recipients? I suppose he can't. I mean, I don't quite know. Being undocumented isn't really a crime, so it's not like pardoning someone for a crime. On the other hand, I've done zero research on this. I'm just making all this up. Carter did pardon or Amnesty, didn't he? All the draft avoiders who had gone to Canada and so forth. Why is it that different to pardon people here and to, say, treat them as if they'd been documented anyway? I don't know. Couldn't they be thinking of things they could do to help doing a little more than they're doing to cushion the country from the damage Trump wants to do?

[Tim Miller]

It does feel that way. You talked on the conversations with Bill Kristol, with Jack Goldsmith, who is over at Lawfare and a Harvard professor who knows this stuff. Well, I'm just going to cop to the fact that I haven't had a chance to listen to it yet. It's on my list while in between trips to the bathroom tonight. But did Jack have any insight on that front?

[Bill Kristol]

So, I mean, Jack is very cautious and Judicious, I mean, honestly so. And is speaking as a kind of balanced law professor and not everything needs to go as badly as it might. But I would say given that he, I don't know, is a touch more conservative than we are. But I think he's. He believes strongly in executive power. But anyway, he knows the executive branch extremely well, both justice and DoD. And yeah, it's alarming, I think, if you know who Jack Goldsmith is, if you know how careful he's been, if I can put it in a simple and crude way, not to sound like us quite over the last few years. And I don't mean this. Jack is a serious guy. It's not like he's sitting around thinking, I don't want to sound like Tim and Bill. It's just that this is who he is. But if you know who he is and you watch that, you see that even someone who kind of wants to see whether there might be a case to be made for some of these reforms and civil service stuff and executive authority and after all, the president is elected and people report to him, he is pretty alarmed, I'd say. Especially interesting.

[Tim Miller]

We're talking about the schedule F this.

[Bill Kristol]

We didn't get into that quite as much. The thing he seemed personally most alarmed about was national security. Interestingly fair amount about the rule of law stuff from doj, but really the national security implications of having a Patel at FBI and then having a dod, that's dysfunctional. He's. I think he's always been somewhat concerned about national security. His work in 2002, 2003 was kind of post 911 work. It was also rolled back and gotten a lot of big fights through the Bush White House by rolling back the John Dew torture memo. So he's not some kind of mindless hawk. Do as much as you can. But he is seriously concerned about national security and he's very worried about just what, four years of these guys being totally silly and demonstrative and just Rand, I don't like the FBI. So we're getting rid of the counterintelligence division. How much real damage that could do to our national security.

[Tim Miller]

Excited to listen to that. We'll put a link in the show. Notes from big events to silly moments you capture every day. Doesn't it sometimes feel like all your favorite photos are just stuck on your camera roll? Wouldn't it be great to have an easy way to share and enjoy them with friends and family? That's where Aura comes in. Named the number one digital photo frame by Wirecutter aura makes it effortless to upload unlimited photos and videos directly from your phone, so your favorite memories are always within view. Plus, you can personalize and preload an aura frame for a truly special and unforgettable gift. It's something that's an issue for me. You know, I'm taking a lot of photos, taking a lot of snaps. I was posting them on Instagram for a while. But you know, now that I'm a content creator, my Instagram has been overtaken by my takes. And so, you know, you need a place to go. You need a place to send the good ones, the cute pictures of my daughter, you know, the fun pictures with my pals because I still get to have fun from time to time. And the aura frame is a nice way both to ensure that those pictures exist somewhere outside of my pocket and as a gift for a friend or a loved one who wants to keep tabs on what's going on in my non podcast related life. So save on the perfect gift by visiting aura frames.com to get 35% off Aura's best selling carver Matte frames by using promo code Bulwark at checkout. That's a U R A frames.com promo code bulwark. This deal is exclusive to listeners, so get yours now in time for the holidays. Terms and conditions apply. I want to go and talk about a couple of news items or thoughts from the progressive wing of the Democratic Party and try to position woke Bill Kristol as far left as possible just to prove all of your enemies right. Here's Bernie this morning on the morning shows.

[Bernie Sanders]

It's not talked about enough. We are moving rapidly into an oligarchic form of society. Never before in American history have so few billionaires, so few people have so much wealth and so much power. Never before has there been so much concentration of ownership, sector after sector power of Wall street and never before in American history. And we better talk about this. Have the people on top had so much political power. We can't go around the world saying, oh well, you know, in Russia, Putin has an oligarchy. Well, we got an oligarchy here too. And in this last election in both parties, billionaires spent huge amounts of money to elect their candidates.

[Tim Miller]

Huge. Sometimes I just, you know, I was watching the clip and I was like, you got to hand it to Bernie. I don't know. I want to hear what Bill Kristol thinks about that. It's hard to argue with that right now.

[Bill Kristol]

I mean, he's been reading, he's Been reading warning shots obviously and also my X and Blue sky feeds and I've made this by. I don't think it's quite the same in both parties and I think honestly it's the political power side of it that's most scary. It could be bad to have too much inequality of wealth and there could be more progressive taxes and maybe we need more antitrust and to break up companies. In this respect, there's not much similarity between Biden and Trump. I mean the just totally shameless Elon Musk and Trump and the dealing as we've seen, the courting, favor and appointing. I mean the meshing that is more like Orban or aspects of Putin and is super dangerous. So I'm glad Bernie's come around to the bulwark point of view on this. You know, I wonder if Bernie ever used. I wonder if he used to use the word oligarchy a lot. That's sort of an old fashioned word. I don't know if the Marxists really use it that much.

[Tim Miller]

Millionaires and the billionaires, I mean billionaires. I don't know. We'd have to go back to the transcripts from his 16 speeches. I don't know. It's a good question, I guess why I really wanted to play it was in order. Besides getting you and Bernie on the record as being on the same side on this one was. I'm sympathetic to the fact that this is actually a more fruitful ground for Democrats and all of us that are trying to challenge this incoming administration than some of this other stuff. The brazenness in which they're doing this, just tying this back to the whole, the Romney thing about the middle class and the guy you're talking about. It's like it didn't stick with Trump in the first term in any way that he had all these Goldman Sachs people around him. But I feel like it's just so much more brazen this time that it feels like something that eventually people are going to be like, this is out of control.

[Bill Kristol]

The Democrats I think, and I'm no expert on this at all, but need to go back and really look at fdr. I mean they all want to go back to Clinton or they want to go back to Obama, which is understandable. That's why modern they were in modern America. FDR was awful a long time ago by now. But he combined we. I mean I think of him, I always admired who grow up, grew up admiring him not knowing that much. But you know, he won the war obviously and got us out of the Depression and saved capitalism. That was kind of the standard semi conservative defense of FDR that unlike, you know, he protected by strengthening guardrails, limiting the abuses and so forth, he actually ended up saving capitalism. And I think FDR said this himself, or certainly his defenders did at the time. But FDR also used a lot of what would today be called class warfare rhetoric and denouncing the malefactors of great wealth and had policies that were in some cases pretty radical. So I think there's a way to combine a kind of healthy, anti oligarchic, semi populism with pretty free market, pro market, non huge government program type policies. I think.

[Tim Miller]

Yo, there's so much of our info out there on the Internet these days, something that we've been talking about. It's coming up in conversations I'm having with people who I think are are taking additional cautionary steps in the wake of our new regime. So one product I've been telling them about and I've even had a few gift subscriptions to give away is DeleteMe. DeleteMe is a subscription service that removes your personal info from hundreds of data brokers. You sign up and provide Deleteme with exactly what information you want deleted and their experts take it from there. Delete Me isn't just a one time service. Deleteme is always working for you, constantly monitoring and removing the personal information you don't want on the Internet. Take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Delete Me now at a special discount for our listeners and their loved ones today. Get 20% off your delete me plan when you go to joindelete me.com bulwark and use promo code Bulwark at checkout. The only way to get 20% off is to go to joindelete me.com bulwark and enter code bulwark at checkout. That is joindeleteme.com bulwark code Volworg AOC. On the younger end of the spectrum, there's a lot of discussion right now about how XI is trying to get a spot on the Oversight Committee and that there should be Democratic turnover. And the other congressman that wants that gavel is Gerry Connolly, more of an old line Democrat type. Do you have any grand thoughts on whether the Democrats should be turning turning over gavels to AOC and be more mindful of generational change on the Hill?

[Bill Kristol]

All my moderate friends, of course are for, you know, think, oh my God, AOC is the face of the party. I've Got to say, when I've seen her, if you're going to oppose Trump, why not aoc? I don't want her to run the country. I'm not sure I want her to chair some actual important committee if the Democrats ever win Congress back. This is oversight. So it's entirely a oversight of the executive branch. It's a, let's call it adversarial investigative committee. It's not. She's not going to be making policy in most areas. So my instinct, Jerry Connolly is incidentally the congressman from right around here, so I'm probably hear from his staff and stuff, but my instinct is to think, why not do aoc? I mean, and people are freaking out on the center about, oh, my God, can you imagine aoc? So what if she's head of oversight for two years, not the end of the world. And she's pretty good at making these arguments, I think. What do you think? Don't you have more. I have a little more faith the AOC will go after the worst things the Trump administration does than Jerry Connolly.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. I'm of mixed views. On the one hand, I strongly believe that the Democrats on the Hill have been too timid over the last eight or nine years and that they should be much more aggressive in oversight and tactics. And this is like the question that I ask every Democratic congressman that wants to come on this podcast is, you know, are you going to work with Mike Johnson and bail them out when they can't fund the government? Are you going to, you know, push investigations? I just think that they've been too timid, in particular on the Hill during the Trump era. And so will AOC be more, you know, aggressive? Will she be better at getting attention for the corruption stuff that we've just been talking about? Absolutely. She also is, you know, she lets loose, which I like, but sometimes she lets a little too loose, you know, and if you follow her social media feeds, I mean, there's stuff that she does that I just don't think that gets that much attention now that I think would get a lot of attention if she was, you know, running this committee or running for president as far as, you know, kind of really eye rolly, type, identity politics type stuff that she does. Some of her messaging around the Luigi United Healthcare thing was a little, you know, makes me cringe a little bit. That's the kind of balance, right? I don't know, you know, but maybe you have to take the good with the bad in something like this. But I do think that particularly for the oversight Thing I'm not as unlike you. I'm not as hostile to it as one might think.

[Bill Kristol]

I agree with the way you put it. Yeah. So just give AOC oversight, and then we'll all support Richie Torres against AOC in the 2028 Democratic primary. It's gonna be a good primary, right? Two young members of Congress. Very.

[Tim Miller]

Is that a Democratic primary? For what office?

[Bill Kristol]

President's. President. Get with it. We're skipping a few generations, maybe. Didn't you get that memo? We're. We're going down. We're going down.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I've got some issues about that head to head, but we can. We can do a 2028 hot stove another time. All right. Well, do you have any thoughts on the. On the drones? People are concerned. People are seeing stars. Larry Hogan saw Ryan's belt and thought it was a drone.

[Bill Kristol]

He hasn't quite recovered from his guy.

[Tim Miller]

On Twitter that saw. Saw lots of lights over the Capitol is very concerned. It was just those planes landing at Reagan. So I don't know what. Do you have any worries? Do you have any friends on the inside that provide any state secrets to our listeners?

[Bill Kristol]

I have no secrets and no thoughts. Except to, say, two people randomly over the last 24 hours of just texting with them or chatting with them, actually, about other things. I mean, social, personal, family stuff, kind of have both said, I don't know. It seems like it can't just be. There seems to be something there and they're not thinking it's like some deep state, whatever.

[Tim Miller]

But it's aliens.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, aliens. Right. So I don't know. I don't know. I haven't followed it enough. It feels like there's maybe enough that it isn't literally just airplanes landing at newark and at LaGuardia. Or maybe it is literally just airplanes and FedEx drones or Amazon drones delivering stuff. Maybe it is literally that. I have no idea.

[Tim Miller]

I think it's literally that. But I'm open to aliens. You know, it's been a weird month, so let's mix things up. I don't know. We might welcome them as liberators. We'll see. Bill Kristol, thank you so much for doing this on Sunday afternoon for me. We will. Like, I won't see you next week. We'll be on a holiday next week. We'll see you in two weeks for the Borg podcast. Enjoy the holidays. Everybody else will be back here tomorrow for another edition of the Borg podcast. I hope.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

It'S faded. It's more foul and famous. It knocks in Hollywood off the bus and a little destruct talk in a waist with a goldface be the greedy with dum dum you and me and a butane super lame and he puff up little dragons of fat rap shooting up walk in the zone again less waking up fog of fight night eat with a sip to sell trash sleep with an orphan's hell hack part of me son I'm sold out hold out know that home is blow down sold out without extra man bonus tragedy smurf smurfs the middleman shirt burst wet it up wet work get it up get Murph a rabbit and cross hands mechanical fox sign be quiet after hunting now the method is awes.

[Tim Miller]

The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Lights are going up, snow is falling down There's a feeling of goodwill around town it could only mean one thing Make RA ribbons here People throwing parties, ugly sweaters everywhere Stockings hung up by the chimney with care it could only mean one thing.

[Bill Kristol]

McRib is here at participating McDonald's for a limited time.