The Bulwark Podcast
Episode: Bill Kristol: Fight on All Fronts
Date: November 17, 2025
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Bill Kristol
Overview
This episode dives into the latest political maneuvers surrounding the release of the Jeffrey Epstein files, analyzing Trump’s "fold" and the surprising bipartisan momentum in Congress to force transparency. Tim Miller and Bill Kristol break down the strategies that led to this unexpected legislative shift, explore the political implications for Trump and the MAGA movement, and discuss Marjorie Taylor Greene’s recent attempts at rebranding, ongoing harsh immigration enforcement actions, and how the exposure of elite rot through issues like Epstein is shifting the political landscape.
Main Themes & Purpose
- Dissecting Trump’s surprising reversal on the Epstein files and its ramifications in Congress and the Senate.
- The importance of aggressive, all-fronts opposition to authoritarianism, and how unconventional strategies have recently paid off for Democrats.
- The fracturing of the MAGA coalition, both at the elite level and among its populist base.
- The realignment happening within the GOP and amongst its highest-profile figures, with a focus on Marjorie Taylor Greene and broader lessons on redemption and de-radicalization.
- Reactions to and consequences of Trump administration’s immigration crackdown internally (Operation “Charlotte’s Web”).
- Broader lessons for centrists and Democrats, particularly regarding elite accountability in the post-Epstein era.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Trump’s "Fold" on the Epstein Files
[00:13 - 04:20]
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Trump reverses position and calls for House Republicans to vote to release the Epstein files, which Miller and Kristol argue may pressure the Senate to move as well.
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Political implications:
- "The most important element of the fold is the implications for the Senate. This thing might actually happen." – Tim Miller [01:33]
- Bill Kristol predicts near-term passage: "I do think...the House will pass this overwhelmingly tonight or tomorrow, I think in the Senate...as early as later this week." [02:16]
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Skepticism regarding transparency:
- "They're definitely caveats here... it's not as if this thing's going to get signed this week and we're going to know every secret about the Jeffrey Epstein story by next week." – Tim Miller [03:10]
NOTABLE QUOTE
“As a political lesson...it's important to try a lot of things because you don't know what's going to land.”
— Tim Miller [03:50]
2. Aggressive Tactics and Fighting on All Fronts
[04:20 - 09:38]
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Unexpected outcomes: Getting a handful of unconventional Republicans, rather than moderates, to sign the discharge petition, secured Democratic leverage.
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“Fracturing MAGA may be a better or at least as good a strategy as winning over moderates...You've said that before.” — Bill Kristol [06:03]
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The efficacy of aggressive, risk-taking tactics:
- “Being aggressive, letting backbenchers take the lead. Ro Khanna deserves credit here... Don't be driven entirely by leadership and long meetings with consultants and pollsters...” — Bill Kristol [06:03]
- “The lesson is, you’ve got to fight on all fronts and you don’t rule out long shots.” [04:20]
NOTABLE QUOTE
“Maybe they should spend less time explaining to voters what they can’t do and looking at every possible lever of power they have.”
— Bill Kristol [05:00]
3. Fracturing the MAGA Coalition
[09:54 - 13:23]
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Emerging cracks in Trump’s coalition:
- Tim Miller plays a clip from comedian/podcaster Tim Dillon:
- "This is the end of the Trump administration. This is the beginning of the lame duck presidency. It's obvious to everyone, even his most ardent supporters..." – Tim Dillon [11:50]
- Miller observes: “In a way that is different from anything since early January 6th, it does feel as if you can see how this thing crashes and burns, and how it crashes and burns because, in large part, people within the MAGA coalition look at it and decide that this is not serving them anymore...” [12:36]
- Tim Miller plays a clip from comedian/podcaster Tim Dillon:
-
Bill Kristol agrees there's a notable shift:
- "At least fizzles and sputters... There's some chunk of the Trump coalition, both the sort of normie Republicans and the populist wing, that's suddenly more vulnerable." [13:23]
NOTABLE QUOTE
“It does feel as if... you can see how this thing crashes and burns, because people within the MAGA coalition look at it and decide this is not serving them anymore.”
— Tim Miller [12:36]
4. Historical Parallels and Elite Alienation
[14:53 - 19:25]
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Historical parallels with how George W. Bush’s support collapsed (often after betrayals felt within his own ranks, not strictly due to outside attacks)—now possibly repeating for Trump.
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Analogy to Katrina and Epstein, both as bipartisan indictments of fecklessness, and not just left-vs-right fights.
NOTABLE MOMENT
Lively banter comparing Katrina and Harriet Miers with Epstein, as illustrative collapses that hit from unexpected angles, not predictable battles. [18:37]
5. Marjorie Taylor Greene’s Attempted Pivot
[23:30 - 30:17]
- Playing the full Dana Bash–Marjorie Taylor Greene CNN clip: MTG apologizes for participating in toxic politics and vows redemption after feeling the effects herself. [23:30]
- Miller and Kristol discuss the sincerity and the strategic opportunities in welcoming her pivot.
- “Isn't this what we want?... I fundamentally think people are redeemable and we want to try to encourage that and create a positive incentive structure for that.” – Tim Miller [25:07]
- Kristol agrees: “Once you break a little more and one can hold her to her promise now to be more responsible... it doesn't take that many.” [27:43]
NOTABLE QUOTE
“If the reputation of the Bulwark is that anybody who has decided to see Donald Trump clearly would want to be in league with us, then I wear that reputation with pride.”
— Tim Miller [29:15]
6. Immigration Crackdown & Operation "Charlotte’s Web"
[36:44 - 44:45]
- Overview of aggressive Border Patrol actions in Charlotte, NC, with disturbing reports of citizens being targeted, property destruction, and church raids ("masked, heavily armed agents...targeting American citizens based on skin color..." - Tim Miller paraphrasing Gov. Stein [36:44]).
- Kristol: “You watch it. You almost can't believe it, honestly. Well, you do believe it now, unfortunately.” [38:55]
- Discussion of how this could politically backfire for Trump, with even some in the MAGA ranks alienated by its extremity.
NOTABLE QUOTE
“If anywhere should be a sanctuary, it should be a church... This is crazy.”
— Tim Miller [41:41]
Noteworthy Reflection
- Reading from E.B. White’s 1940 essay Freedom, highlighting the peril in "adjusting to fascism and dictators." [43:39]
7. Venezuela & the Risks of Military Escalation
[45:14 - 47:57]
- Kristol highlights concern over the administration’s saber-rattling toward Venezuela and the lack of strategic clarity or debate.
- Cautions that escalation could further alienate the MAGA base’s anti-interventionist wing.
NOTABLE QUOTE
“America first is not about bombing Venezuela. Whatever you think of America first, it's about, like, keep defending our borders.”
— Bill Kristol [45:54]
8. The Post-Epstein Moment and Elite Accountability
[47:57 - 52:45]
- Miller and Kristol discuss the profound cultural effect of the Epstein files:
- They expose the rot in elite institutions, fueling justified populist skepticism.
- “If you care about advancing a more center-left agenda within the Democratic Party, you need to figure out a way to do it that goes against these gross elites.” – Tim Miller [50:25]
- Kristol suggests centrists must credibly distance themselves from this tainted elite culture and perhaps look to authentically “outsider” figures.
NOTABLE QUOTE
“If the centrists don't step up and show that they're willing to take this on...then it will be MAMDANI and AOC and...who's going to blame people for voting for them at that point?”
— Bill Kristol [51:27]
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
| Time | Speaker | Quote | |----------|-----------------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:50 | Tim Miller | "It's important to try a lot of things because you, you don't know what's going to land." | | 11:50 | Tim Dillon | "This is the end of the Trump administration...the beginning of the lame duck presidency. It's obvious to everyone, even his most ardent supporters..." | 12:36 | Tim Miller | "It does feel as if... you can see how this thing crashes and burns, because people within the MAGA coalition look at it and decide this is not serving them anymore." | 29:15 | Tim Miller | "If the reputation of the Bulwark is that anybody who has decided to see Donald Trump clearly would want to be in league with us, then I wear that reputation with pride." | 41:41 | Tim Miller | "If anywhere should be a sanctuary, it should be a church... This is crazy." | 45:54 | Bill Kristol | "America first is not about bombing Venezuela. Whatever you think of America first, it's about, like, keep defending our borders." | 51:27 | Bill Kristol | "If the centrists don't step up and show that they're willing to take this on...then it will be MAMDANI and AOC and...who's going to blame people for voting for them at that point?"
Timestamps for Key Segments
- Epstein Files & Trump Fold: 00:13 – 04:20
- Fight on All Fronts—Democrats' Tactics & Lessons: 04:20 – 09:38
- Fracturing MAGA (Tim Dillon clip): 11:50 – 13:23
- Elite Collapse Analogies (Bush, Katrina, Miers): 14:53 – 20:05
- Marjorie Taylor Greene’s Rebrand & Redemption: 23:30 – 30:17
- Immigration Crackdown – “Charlotte’s Web”: 36:44 – 44:45
- Venezuela Escalation: 45:14 – 47:57
- Elite Accountability Post-Epstein: 47:57 – 52:45
Final Takeaways
- Pressure points within authoritarian movements can be unexpectedly leveraged with aggressive, persistent actions—outcomes aren’t predetermined.
- Fracturing far-right populist coalitions may be more powerful than courting moderates.
- The exposure of elite abuses has fundamentally shifted what kinds of leaders and messages can credibly command trust; centrism now requires authentic opposition to elite rot.
- Real-world impacts of authoritarian policy—like “Operation Charlotte’s Web”—risk tipping both the mainstream and elements of the populist right against Trump.
- Even controversial figures like Marjorie Taylor Greene attempting to “walk back” past behavior signal cracks in the MAGA edifice and should be encouraged where genuine.
This episode exemplifies The Bulwark’s signature mix of hard-headed analysis, political strategy, and dry wit—serving both as a record of tumultuous political shifts and a source of practical lessons for those opposing the drift toward authoritarianism.