The Bulwark Podcast: Bill Kristol on Limp Opposition

Release Date: June 30, 2025
Participants: Tim Miller (Host), Bill Kristol (Guest)
Duration: Approximately 57 minutes

1. Introduction and Light Banter

Time Stamp: 01:00 - 02:15

The episode kicks off with Tim Miller engaging in light-hearted conversation with Bill Kristol about music preferences, specifically the band Car Seat Headrest. This casual exchange sets a personable tone before delving into more serious political discussions.

2. Critique of Jeff Bezos' Wedding and Plutocratic Tendencies

Time Stamp: 02:07 - 03:46

Tim voices disillusionment with Jeff Bezos following his high-profile wedding, expressing concerns about Bezos' political maneuvering:

Tim Miller (02:15): "Nothing has happened to make me more pro Zauron in the last month than the Bezos wedding."

Bill agrees, drawing parallels between current plutocratic behaviors and historical instances where economic elites influenced political movements:

Bill Kristol (02:37): "There's a reason ton of people became socialists or social democrats, at least democratic socialists a century ago... I still feel like we're reliving this a little bit."

The discussion highlights the tension between immense personal wealth and the pursuit of governmental handouts, questioning the ethical implications of such relationships with authoritarian figures.

3. Analysis of the Senate's Big Fugly Bill

Time Stamp: 04:00 - 07:58

The conversation shifts to a critical examination of a proposed Senate bill, termed by Kristol as "Trump's big fugly bill." The bill is criticized for:

• Economic Impact: Potential to destroy millions of jobs and harm strategic industries.
• Subsidy Discrepancies: Favoring outdated industries like coal while neglecting clean energy advancements.

Bill Kristol (05:03): "It gives handouts to industries of the past while severely damaging industries of the future."

Elon Musk's critique is cited as a rare substantial opposition within the Democratic party:

Kristol (04:50): "That's Elon Musk, the former shadow president, and that's pretty crazy."

The bill's provisions on Medicaid cuts are a focal point, with Tillis' opposition rooted in the negative consequences for 663,000 individuals in North Carolina.

4. Senator Tom Tillis' Retirement and Its Implications

Time Stamp: 07:37 - 13:35

Tim details Senator Tom Tillis' unexpected retirement, emphasizing his opposition to advancing the contentious bill and his decision to step away from the Senate:

Tim Miller (07:35): "He joins a long line of brave Republicans who finally say, who finally oppose Trump."

Bill criticizes Tillis for his alignment with Trumpian policies despite his departure:

Bill Kristol (07:43): "He's in a slightly different position now. He's decided that this expansion... was a good thing. Maybe he could make that rethink his general allegiance to Trumpian and Republican orthodoxy. But there's no evidence of that."

The duo expresses disappointment that Tillis' retirement comes after backing significant partisan legislation, rather than serving as a true bipartisan leader.

5. Bipartisanship and the Decline of Independent Thinking in the GOP

Time Stamp: 13:35 - 19:36

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the dwindling presence of bipartisan and independent-minded leaders within the Republican Party. The retirement of Tillis and Don Bacon is seen as symptomatic of a broader shift towards extremism and away from moderation:

Bill Kristol (16:43): "There's no room really left for statesmanship and for free thinking, really."

Tim laments the loss of potential bipartisan collaborations, suggesting that senators like Tillis and Collins could have fostered cooperation across the aisle:

Tim Miller (17:37): "They could have gone across the aisle to Chuck Schumer and been like, what do we agree on?"

The conversation underscores a frustration with the party's trajectory, emphasizing how retiring senators are signaling the end of an era of pragmatism.

6. Immigration Policies and ICE Detentions

Time Stamp: 31:50 - 39:37

Tim presents a harrowing account of Donna Kashanian, a 64-year-old Iranian woman detained by ICE despite having lived in the U.S. for 47 years without a criminal record:

Tim Miller (35:34): "She was purely targeted based on ethnicity and race and country of origin."

Bill joins in criticizing the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) for its aggressive and seemingly indiscriminate deportation tactics:

Bill Kristol (38:05): "It's grotesque...detaining a woman who's minding her own business and has lived here for almost 50 years."

Their discourse highlights the ethical dilemmas and humanitarian crises stemming from harsh immigration enforcement measures, questioning the justice of deporting long-term residents without cause.

7. AI Regulation and Legislative Constraints

Time Stamp: 28:05 - 54:33

The hosts delve into the Senate bill's controversial provisions regarding artificial intelligence (AI). The bill imposes a five-year moratorium on AI regulation, raising alarms about the stifling of technological oversight:

Tim Miller (28:10): "We're going to make a rule now that you can't do any regulation on this at all."

Bill and Tim express concern over the lack of foresight in regulating AI, emphasizing the potential dangers of unchecked technological advancements:

Bill Kristol (53:50): "It's a very alarming ideology."

They debate the long-term implications of such legislative actions, fearing that they could leave the country vulnerable to both technological abuse and authoritarian exploitation.

8. Foreign Policy: Iran Strikes and International Relations

Time Stamp: 33:18 - 35:53

Discussion turns to recent U.S. military actions against Iran and the subsequent diplomatic fallout. They critique Trump's handling of the situation, suggesting a departure from his earlier hawkish stance:

Bill Kristol (35:24): "Trump is a ridiculous con man who doesn't understand a word that Peter Thiel has ever said about any of this..."

The conversation highlights the complexities and unintended consequences of military interventions, forecasting continued tensions with Iran and strained relations with allies like Israel.

9. Reflections on American Nativism and Assimilation

Time Stamp: 46:39 - 47:55

Bill and Tim reflect on the enduring issue of nativism in American history, drawing parallels between past and present attitudes towards immigrants. Kristol shares a personal anecdote:

Bill Kristol (46:39): "Lincoln was really appalled by it when he saw it with the Germans."

They argue for a more inclusive understanding of American identity, rejecting the notion that assimilation is solely defined by language proficiency or cultural conformity.

10. Final Thoughts: Peter Thiel and the Future of the Authoritarian Movement

Time Stamp: 49:16 - 54:33

In their concluding segment, the hosts discuss the influence of tech oligarchs like Peter Thiel on the political landscape. They express concern over Thiel's anti-human ideologies and his potential role in shaping an authoritarian future:

Bill Kristol (54:44): "It's a very good point you make. They are. It is kind of anti human."

The conversation underscores the perilous intersection of technology, power, and extremist politics, warning of a future where unfettered technological control exacerbates authoritarian tendencies.

Conclusion

The episode, rich with incisive political analysis, paints a grim picture of the current state of American politics. From the erosion of bipartisanship and independent thought within the GOP to the troubling implications of unchecked immigration policies and AI regulation, Tim Miller and Bill Kristol offer a robust critique of contemporary political dynamics. Their discussion serves as a call to action for preserving democratic values and resisting the forces steering the nation towards authoritarianism.

Notable Quotes:

• Tim Miller (02:15): "Nothing has happened to make me more pro Zauron in the last month than the Bezos wedding."

• Bill Kristol (05:03): "It gives handouts to industries of the past while severely damaging industries of the future."

• Tom Tillis (08:50): "When the White House advising the President are not telling him that the effect of this bill is to Break apart."

• Bill Kristol (16:43): "There's no room really left for statesmanship and for free thinking, really."

• Tim Miller (28:10): "We're going to make a rule now that you can't do any regulation on this at all."

• Bill Kristol (46:39): "Lincoln was really appalled by it when he saw it with the Germans."

• Bill Kristol (54:44): "It's kind of anti human."

This comprehensive summary encapsulates the key discussions and critical insights shared by Tim Miller and Bill Kristol, providing listeners and readers with a clear understanding of the episode's main themes and conclusions.