Bill Kristol: Limp Opposition

Summary

The Bulwark Podcast: Bill Kristol on Limp Opposition

Release Date: June 30, 2025
Participants: Tim Miller (Host), Bill Kristol (Guest)
Duration: Approximately 57 minutes

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1. Introduction and Light Banter

Time Stamp: 01:00 - 02:15

The episode kicks off with Tim Miller engaging in light-hearted conversation with Bill Kristol about music preferences, specifically the band Car Seat Headrest. This casual exchange sets a personable tone before delving into more serious political discussions.

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2. Critique of Jeff Bezos' Wedding and Plutocratic Tendencies

Time Stamp: 02:07 - 03:46

Tim voices disillusionment with Jeff Bezos following his high-profile wedding, expressing concerns about Bezos' political maneuvering:

Tim Miller (02:15): "Nothing has happened to make me more pro Zauron in the last month than the Bezos wedding."

Bill agrees, drawing parallels between current plutocratic behaviors and historical instances where economic elites influenced political movements:

Bill Kristol (02:37): "There's a reason ton of people became socialists or social democrats, at least democratic socialists a century ago... I still feel like we're reliving this a little bit."

The discussion highlights the tension between immense personal wealth and the pursuit of governmental handouts, questioning the ethical implications of such relationships with authoritarian figures.

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3. Analysis of the Senate's Big Fugly Bill

Time Stamp: 04:00 - 07:58

The conversation shifts to a critical examination of a proposed Senate bill, termed by Kristol as "Trump's big fugly bill." The bill is criticized for:

• Economic Impact: Potential to destroy millions of jobs and harm strategic industries.
• Subsidy Discrepancies: Favoring outdated industries like coal while neglecting clean energy advancements.

Bill Kristol (05:03): "It gives handouts to industries of the past while severely damaging industries of the future."

Elon Musk's critique is cited as a rare substantial opposition within the Democratic party:

Kristol (04:50): "That's Elon Musk, the former shadow president, and that's pretty crazy."

The bill's provisions on Medicaid cuts are a focal point, with Tillis' opposition rooted in the negative consequences for 663,000 individuals in North Carolina.

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4. Senator Tom Tillis' Retirement and Its Implications

Time Stamp: 07:37 - 13:35

Tim details Senator Tom Tillis' unexpected retirement, emphasizing his opposition to advancing the contentious bill and his decision to step away from the Senate:

Tim Miller (07:35): "He joins a long line of brave Republicans who finally say, who finally oppose Trump."

Bill criticizes Tillis for his alignment with Trumpian policies despite his departure:

Bill Kristol (07:43): "He's in a slightly different position now. He's decided that this expansion... was a good thing. Maybe he could make that rethink his general allegiance to Trumpian and Republican orthodoxy. But there's no evidence of that."

The duo expresses disappointment that Tillis' retirement comes after backing significant partisan legislation, rather than serving as a true bipartisan leader.

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5. Bipartisanship and the Decline of Independent Thinking in the GOP

Time Stamp: 13:35 - 19:36

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the dwindling presence of bipartisan and independent-minded leaders within the Republican Party. The retirement of Tillis and Don Bacon is seen as symptomatic of a broader shift towards extremism and away from moderation:

Bill Kristol (16:43): "There's no room really left for statesmanship and for free thinking, really."

Tim laments the loss of potential bipartisan collaborations, suggesting that senators like Tillis and Collins could have fostered cooperation across the aisle:

Tim Miller (17:37): "They could have gone across the aisle to Chuck Schumer and been like, what do we agree on?"

The conversation underscores a frustration with the party's trajectory, emphasizing how retiring senators are signaling the end of an era of pragmatism.

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6. Immigration Policies and ICE Detentions

Time Stamp: 31:50 - 39:37

Tim presents a harrowing account of Donna Kashanian, a 64-year-old Iranian woman detained by ICE despite having lived in the U.S. for 47 years without a criminal record:

Tim Miller (35:34): "She was purely targeted based on ethnicity and race and country of origin."

Bill joins in criticizing the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) for its aggressive and seemingly indiscriminate deportation tactics:

Bill Kristol (38:05): "It's grotesque...detaining a woman who's minding her own business and has lived here for almost 50 years."

Their discourse highlights the ethical dilemmas and humanitarian crises stemming from harsh immigration enforcement measures, questioning the justice of deporting long-term residents without cause.

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7. AI Regulation and Legislative Constraints

Time Stamp: 28:05 - 54:33

The hosts delve into the Senate bill's controversial provisions regarding artificial intelligence (AI). The bill imposes a five-year moratorium on AI regulation, raising alarms about the stifling of technological oversight:

Tim Miller (28:10): "We're going to make a rule now that you can't do any regulation on this at all."

Bill and Tim express concern over the lack of foresight in regulating AI, emphasizing the potential dangers of unchecked technological advancements:

Bill Kristol (53:50): "It's a very alarming ideology."

They debate the long-term implications of such legislative actions, fearing that they could leave the country vulnerable to both technological abuse and authoritarian exploitation.

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8. Foreign Policy: Iran Strikes and International Relations

Time Stamp: 33:18 - 35:53

Discussion turns to recent U.S. military actions against Iran and the subsequent diplomatic fallout. They critique Trump's handling of the situation, suggesting a departure from his earlier hawkish stance:

Bill Kristol (35:24): "Trump is a ridiculous con man who doesn't understand a word that Peter Thiel has ever said about any of this..."

The conversation highlights the complexities and unintended consequences of military interventions, forecasting continued tensions with Iran and strained relations with allies like Israel.

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9. Reflections on American Nativism and Assimilation

Time Stamp: 46:39 - 47:55

Bill and Tim reflect on the enduring issue of nativism in American history, drawing parallels between past and present attitudes towards immigrants. Kristol shares a personal anecdote:

Bill Kristol (46:39): "Lincoln was really appalled by it when he saw it with the Germans."

They argue for a more inclusive understanding of American identity, rejecting the notion that assimilation is solely defined by language proficiency or cultural conformity.

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10. Final Thoughts: Peter Thiel and the Future of the Authoritarian Movement

Time Stamp: 49:16 - 54:33

In their concluding segment, the hosts discuss the influence of tech oligarchs like Peter Thiel on the political landscape. They express concern over Thiel's anti-human ideologies and his potential role in shaping an authoritarian future:

Bill Kristol (54:44): "It's a very good point you make. They are. It is kind of anti human."

The conversation underscores the perilous intersection of technology, power, and extremist politics, warning of a future where unfettered technological control exacerbates authoritarian tendencies.

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Conclusion

The episode, rich with incisive political analysis, paints a grim picture of the current state of American politics. From the erosion of bipartisanship and independent thought within the GOP to the troubling implications of unchecked immigration policies and AI regulation, Tim Miller and Bill Kristol offer a robust critique of contemporary political dynamics. Their discussion serves as a call to action for preserving democratic values and resisting the forces steering the nation towards authoritarianism.

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Notable Quotes:

• Tim Miller (02:15): "Nothing has happened to make me more pro Zauron in the last month than the Bezos wedding."

• Bill Kristol (05:03): "It gives handouts to industries of the past while severely damaging industries of the future."

• Tom Tillis (08:50): "When the White House advising the President are not telling him that the effect of this bill is to Break apart."

• Bill Kristol (16:43): "There's no room really left for statesmanship and for free thinking, really."

• Tim Miller (28:10): "We're going to make a rule now that you can't do any regulation on this at all."

• Bill Kristol (46:39): "Lincoln was really appalled by it when he saw it with the Germans."

• Bill Kristol (54:44): "It's kind of anti human."

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the key discussions and critical insights shared by Tim Miller and Bill Kristol, providing listeners and readers with a clear understanding of the episode's main themes and conclusions.

Transcript

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[Tim Miller]

You were made to have strong opinions about sand. We were made to help you and your friends find a place on the beach with a pool and a marina and a waterfall and a soaking tub. Expedia made to trav. Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Delighted to be here in person with Bill Kristol. On Monday. I was up in D.C. for some meetings. I snuck in a car seat headrest concert on Saturday. You're a big car seat headrest man, right, Bill?

[Bill Kristol]

I would even ask. I'm scared to even. I'm terrified to even ask. What is is car seat headrest one thing or two things or three things?

[Tim Miller]

It's a one. It's a band. It's a band. It's a Virginia local. Guy. Will Toledo. Yeah, it's really good.

[Bill Kristol]

Folk music.

[Tim Miller]

Not exactly. I wouldn't say kind of like a gloomy rock.

[Bill Kristol]

Gloomy's good.

[Tim Miller]

Gloomy is good. It fit my mood. I wonder, before we get into the news, the real news, you were doing a big fan of the Bezos wedding coverage this weekend.

[Bill Kristol]

Following it minute to minute, I was.

[Tim Miller]

Just fascinated by everybody's outfits.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, I had a lot of thoughts about the outfits. Yeah. Well, I guess it was in Venice. That's all I know about it.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. I gotta tell you, nothing has happened to make me more pro Zauron in the last month than the Bezos wedding. I know, I saw you. You announced you're anti, anti Zoron. And I gotta tell you, the more I see of Jeff Bezos, the more Zoron curious I start to get, which I know is a wrong impulse, but I have to be honest about my feelings.

[Bill Kristol]

I mean, this. I mean, that's. Not to overthink this, but there's a reason ton of people became socialists or social democrats, at least democratic socialists a century ago is they saw the plutocrats. Right. I mean, it is like that is a real thing. And I do feel like we're reliving this a little bit. I'm not quite as. I'm still anti Zoroan and anti, anti Zoran.

[Tim Miller]

You can be both.

[Bill Kristol]

I'm trying to keep both. But the Bezos, what was it just grotesque. And it cost $50 million.

[Tim Miller]

And he's like, he invited Trump because he's sucking up if Trump didn't go. But he's sucking up to him because he wants the rocket money. And it's like, does the richest, whatever, second richest man in the world, third. Need government handouts? He's got to suck up to the authoritarian to get more handouts from the government. Yeah. And then the wedding itself, it's like, I honor second marriages. You know, it's good. But we can be a little bit more demure about the whole thing.

[Bill Kristol]

I don't think so. A little more demure. I don't think so. Not if you're a Bezos. But the richest people are the most. Are the biggest succops. I have not seen a good, deep, sociological, you know, explanation of that, though. It is contrary to what we.

[Tim Miller]

And I talked about it a little bit. Yeah. And Cuban's answer was deeply unsatisfying, if I have to say. But it was, you know, it was kind of more just like they are psychologically, like they're competitive, you know, and they like, want to do well and want to win. And like in this environment, it's like, well, if this is what we got to do, you know, for my business, you know, they're survivors. You know, if you've. If you've made that kind of money, it's not usually by accident. Right. There's some bodies buried along the way. I don't know. That was the Cuban answer. It's not deeply unsatisfied. The whole thing is deeply unsatisfying. But we do have one good billionaire, soon to be trillionaire. I don't know if you're ready to listen to this, but I want to read to you I think the most penetrating critique of Trump's big fugly bill from anyone. This was over the weekend. The latest Senate draft bill will destroy millions of jobs in America and cause immense strategic harm to our country. Utterly insane and destructive. It gives handouts to industries of the past while severely damaging industries of the future. That's Elon Musk, the former shadow president, and that's pretty crazy. Everybody was like, oh, they made up and Elon's not going to. Elon's going to back down because he wants the rocket ship money or whatever. I mean that is about as tough a critique as I've seen from any Democrat.

[Bill Kristol]

I guess he knows a lot about electric vehicles and understands that he likes the subsidies. But there's something crazy about subsidizing coal and non subsidizing clean energy, which is literally the way they're going. Which incidentally there's not even, as I can see, there's not even like an economic. There are fancy economic arguments for why we shouldn't do away with coal and why it's not a dirty as people think and blah, blah, blah. And we shouldn't subsidize Teslas too much. That's all reasonable. This is just the culture war, right? I mean it's like we're going to just really go out of our way to dig more coal. Is that really a good idea?

[Tim Miller]

They're also. I had Nick Kristoff on, on Friday, we were talking about kind of the stupidity parts of Doge to give you the other side of Elon, like these cuts that didn't actually save anything actually cost money. That's happening on the green subsidies too. Right. It's like we. I forget off top of my head, I think it was we've already purchased the electric postal service cars, but now we're canceling the part where they can charge or something.

[Bill Kristol]

I forgot.

[Tim Miller]

What some part of the electrification of the postal service cars is already done. But this bill is like we're canceling all of the money for anything associated with anything that happened under Joe Biden's effort. So they're just going to be stranded or we're going to have to sell them to I guess people that want.

[Bill Kristol]

There's a big market for postal vans. Don't they open on the wrong side, incidentally?

[Tim Miller]

Is that right?

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah. Doesn't the postal worker get out the other side?

[Tim Miller]

I don't know.

[Bill Kristol]

Drives on the wrong side. Maybe I made that up. Seems that way in our area.

[Tim Miller]

So anyway. Okay, well that's the only complaint the other Big news about the bbb and what I want to spend most of the time on here today is Tom Tillis. So actually, let me back up for folks who are not watching the back and forth of what is actually happening with the bill. So over the weekend, the first vote is always this vote for cloture, which is basically a vote to bring the bill to the floor. Right. And so a lot of times things get blocked during this step. Like it's not an unimportant step in the hurdle in the process for people who aren't Senate procedure nerds. And the Republicans in The Senate have four, have a. Basically a three vote margin. Right. Because J.D. vance can cut the tie. So you can lose three Republicans and still pass anything with the tie. So Rand Paul is a no on this. Ron Johnson's been a no because of the spending. One cheer for Ron Johnson or no cheers for Ron Johnson.

[Bill Kristol]

But he flipped it.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, he flipped in the last one.

[Bill Kristol]

The President satisfied his concerns about spending.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, he got it. Okay, so Paul and Antilles tell us who to get to in a second, who's retiring. The interesting part of that to me was like, if you just have Tillis and Paul, Collins and Verkowski could have killed it, but they both ended up being foreclosure. Now Collins is saying that she is leaning against in the final vote, but she gives deference to John Thune and what he gets to bring to the floor as if like this is the fucking 1700s. So they had a chance to kill it. Tillis has been the most vocal while this is all going on, while he announces that he's going to oppose advancing it to the floor. He also announces that he's going to retire from the Senate. He joins a long line of brave Republicans who finally say, who finally oppose Trump. Right. As they're about to walk out the door, Hello, Bob Corker, et cetera, et cetera. We could go down the whole list. So I want to play this was Tillis on the floor explaining why he's going to vote against us.

[Tom Tillis]

They can't find a hole in my estimate. So what they told me is that, yeah, it's rough, but North Carolina's used the system. They're going to have to make it work. All right, so what do I tell 663,000 people in two years or three years when President Trump breaks his promise by pushing them off of Medicaid because the funding's not there anymore? When the White House advising the President are not telling him that the effect of this bill is to Break apart.

[Tim Miller]

I love the infantilization of Trump at the end. His advisors are tricking him. It's his second term, he's been around for nine years. He's like. And it's like, oh, he's being fooled by Russ vote. Maybe the President just doesn't actually give a fuck about the so called promises, the promises that he made. Tom Tillis. So anyway, there's a lot to unpack here. We both know a lot about the political cowardice of him retiring. But let's just talk about the actual policy side of it. It's interesting that it's the Medicaid thing that he, it's the deal breaker for him. Hawley, who also was talking a big game about not wanting Medicaid cuts. He gave maybe the most interesting and cynical defense for his vote, which kind of alluded to what Tillis said in that clip there where he said, in two or three years, Trump's gonna break his promise. Hawley basically is like, I'm gonna vote for this and then we're gonna not actually do the cuts in two or three years. Right. And so that's basically the Hawley argument for jamming this thing through. What do you think about the whole kind of back and forth on the Medicaid side? Then we'll get into the Telus retirement.

[Bill Kristol]

I mean, Medicaid cuts are real. Jonathan Cohen, our colleague's written a ton about this. It's gonna cost 10 million plus people health insurance. It has spillover effects for reasons that are too complicated to explain. And I probably couldn't explain onto Medicare and Obamacare itself and hurt some people who are getting insurance there too. And so it's nice that Thom Tillis is somewhat subtly, I could say, having voted for a million Trump budgets in the past and for the repeal of Obamacare in 2017 and everything else.

[Tim Miller]

Would people have lost health care in North Carolina during the Obamacare appeal?

[Bill Kristol]

I think they would have. The North Carolina situation is a little interesting. And that's not worth again, because they did expand. They were a purplish state, Republican state that chose to expand Medicaid because of Roy Cooper, the Democratic governor. And he was able to get a Republican legislature to go along having expanded Medicaid. This would now cut back and affect the federal support for that expansion, which is why these 600,000 people are gonna lose it. So I guess he's in a slightly different position now. He's decided that this expansion that every Republican, incidentally on the national level was against was a good thing. Maybe he could make that rethink his general allegiance to Trumpian and Republican orthodoxy. But there's no evidence of that. Can I just go on about Tillis for a minute? I wrote some diatribe about this this morning. And so he, on his way out, he says, incidentally, he's really gonna work hard to have a Republican successor. He's gonna. In fact, he wants to work with President Trump to have a Republican successor.

[Tim Miller]

I've got the quote I wanna read for you and then you can cook on it. So cuz, he was asked who he wants to replace him and he says this, not Mark Robinson, because he would probably lose by 20 points.

[Bill Kristol]

Other than that, he's the lunatic guy. Friend of yours who ran last time.

[Tim Miller]

He's a friend of mine, cuz he like ate pizza in the back of a porn shop. You think that's my crowd?

[Bill Kristol]

You did a lot of coverage of him. You will agree to that?

[Tim Miller]

I do like porn shop coverage. Porn shop related coverage. Anytime you give me a story where a man is sneaking a pizza into the peep show, I am gonna cover it on the podcast. That's true. So anyway, not Mark Robinson. Other than that, here's the quote. I'm here to get a Republican to come behind me. That's the last thing I would want to leave as my legacy.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah. So he wants a Republican who will vote for Trump's forthcoming budgets in 2027 and 2028, which will continue, of course, to cut all kinds of domestic programs and carry out the Trumpian agenda. Thom Tillis has been. I mean, he's. I know him slightly. I think he's a decent person. He kind of would like to do. His Republican Party would be one we could live with. But he's gone along with everything. Everything. He was a key vote member of the Hegseth nomination, wasn't he? The guy who was teetering on the. In the balance. He voted for Hegseth for Tulsi Gabbard, for Robert F. Kennedy Jr. For Pam Bondi, for Cash Patel. I mean. And incidentally, he doesn't seem to express much regret about what's happening in some of these areas. The politicization of the Justice Department, the mass deportation. Some of us think that's kind of as important as, I mean, not to minimize Medicaid. But you know. But no, not a word about. Not a word about that. Not a word about the $150 billion. Is it in the bill to, I don't know, triple or quintuple or something the size of ice and the Whole detention, deportation program. It's nice that he's concerned about his Medicaid constituents, but yeah, I'm even lower.

[Tim Miller]

On him than that. Okay, good. Here's another quote from him in his retirement announcement. It's become evident that leaders who embrace bipartisanship and independent thinking are becoming an endangered species. And I guess he's talking about himself there, but like, what did, what did he do? What was his bipartisanship and independent thinking? This whole thing. So he retires right on the heels of Don Bacon retiring. And Don Bacon is the. As the Republican House member in Omaha who will tweet things about Ukraine that we agree with. He'll occasionally tweet criticisms of Trump, but he never was a holdout on any important bill. He never did anything to block any major Trump agenda item. And the two of them are like, well, the leaders who embrace bipartisanship and independent thinking are becoming an endangered species. Well, it's because you're endangering yourself. I mean, they're doing it to themselves. It's not like there is some invasive force out there that is like killing all of the fauna in an area they've decided to self deport from Congress because they don't want to deal with the hassle like Tom Tillis, Lisa Murkowski, Susan Collins, Mitch McConnell. They could have all got together and actually tried to embrace bipartisanship and independent thinking. They could have gone across the aisle to Chuck Schumer and been like, what do we agree on? Like, the four of us and the Democratic Senate conference. This is how legislative bodies work all over the world. Lisa Murkowski referenced this, and when she was asked about this in a podcast recently, she was like, coalition governments are not uncommon. There's a coalition government in Texas, in the state legislature in Alaska, in the state legislature in a lot of European countries, if they really want it, if they really cared about it, wouldn't be exactly what we would want. It wouldn't be a bulwark agenda that Mitch McConnell and Thom Tillis would be putting forth, but they could have given weapons to Ukraine, protected Medicaid, whatever. Other pet issues about the whales Murkowski has in Alaska and the lobsters that Susan Collins cares about, but they don't even try. They just retire and then finally show a little bit backbone at the last possible second. Like, we've seen this story so many times now. And then they do a woe is me thing. Oh, people are so mean to those of us that want to try bipartisanship. And it's dangerous. Like, we're getting mean mail and I'm just like, the whole thing is so pathetic. It's just like unbelievably pathetic. Like, you are a U.S. senator try. And in this last second, it's just gonna be this limp opposition where he gets to pretend to be on the moral high ground on the Senate floor and not stop anything. They're gonna end up jamming this through today. We're taping this Monday morning. The final vote on this is probably gonna be late tonight or early tomorrow. They're gonna have the votes on it, almost certainly.

[Bill Kristol]

I like the it's become evident formulation that, you know, it just. There's no room really left for statesmanship and for free thinking, really. That just became ev. Maybe that became evident, I don't know, January 20, 2025, maybe became evident in the Trump's Republican Party a lot earlier. Maybe North Carolina is kind of a swing state. Maybe he shouldn't have supported. Gasp. I wouldn't mention this. If he's watching, he'll die, you know, full keel over in shock. Maybe he shouldn't have supported Donald Trump for reelection to the presidency. Maybe he should have told people who not vote for Harris just vote right in. Whoever the favorite son of north, you know, Coach K or something, or whoever the favorite son of Dean Smith, the favorite son of North Carolina is.

[Tim Miller]

Did he campaign for Nikki Haley again? Like, that's not. That's my choice. Exactly. It's not doing exactly what I wanted. But I don't remember Thom Tillis being out there banging the drum for how the Republicans should nominate a statesman like presidential nominee.

[Bill Kristol]

So now he's shocked and he's gonna support Lara Trump.

[Tim Miller]

That's what's gonna end up happening. He's gonna end up complaining about bipartisanship and lack of statesmanship, and then he's gonna end up endorsing. He's gonna probably end up supporting Lara Trump for Senate.

[Bill Kristol]

The one thing I would say Tillis and Bacon did to their credit is they were both actually pretty important in getting the Ukraine aid through a year ago now. That was sort of against Trump's wishes. So they get a little credit. But they had half the Republicans on the Hill with them, including the speaker ultimately and Thune at the time. And was it McConnell or still leader, whoever. Anyway, they were both for it, so it wasn't, you know, quite the same as standing alone against. Against Trump. But Ukraine, speaking of Ukraine, they could have insisted, as you say, four of them could have gotten together and said, we're not voting for a reconciliation Bill that doesn't have aid for Ukraine. You got $100 billion for ICE. How about $50 billion for people who are actually fighting for freedom? Not fighting against freedom. The Ukrain. Oh, sorry. I mean, you know, and so yeah, they did nothing. And now he's a lame duck. He can, he doesn't even need for him.

[Tim Miller]

He's got Rand, actually, which is not gonna vote for anything. So that's a bonus one. He just gotta recruit two other people.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

And the whole thing is just so dispiriting and pathetic and like just a word about one other thing. Also, I had Alyssa Slott came on last week. There's also this part that like bipartisanship and independent thinking are becoming an endangered species. No, bipartisanship and independent thinking are extinct in the Republican Party. Cause you're in a culture and literally you might be replaced by the President's daughter in law. Like she is the top candidate to replace you in the Senate. You're in a cult. It's not true. Really. In the Democratic Party, sure, Manchin and Sinema took some heat, so I think that's probably what he's referencing. But I had Alyssa Slotkin on last week. She's happy to work with Republicans on stuff. I had Tammy Baldwin on a couple months ago. She's happy to work with Republicans on stuff. A lot of times on here we're complaining about how the Democrats are too willing to work with the Republicans on stuff. Whitmer and others. So that's also just not true. Broadly, it's excuse making.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah. And Hakeem Jeffries is getting beat up from the left for expressing discomfort with your friend Zoran Mandani. So I mean he's got. Which is fine. He's expressing discomfort. He'll probably end up supporting him and maybe he'll support Cuomo at the end if he ends up rerunning and so forth, who knows? In Fairfax county, right near, right where I live, but congressional district next to where I live, there was a primary Saturday, a firehouse primary. The party ran for the special election to replace Gerry Connolly who died a month ago, and Gerry Connolly's former chief of staff who's now I think on the Fairfax county board of supervisors, 62 year old guy, moderate Democrat, won with 60% of the vote. So within one week, Mamdani wins in New York. Young, firebrand, lefty and centrist establishment Democrat wins, is going to go to the Congress from Virginia. Yeah, that's okay. It's a sort of. And neither is complaining about the other. You know, I mean, that I know of. You know, they may not love each other, but they're going to be in the same party. And I know. So there is a fair amount of free thinking and diversity of thinking. It's too much for some of our friends on some issues. You know, sure, we could do without a couple of things that Mamdani said and so forth. But I mean, in the Democratic Party, yes. Not. Well, speaking of not irony that he might end up supporting Lara Trump and not coming to grips with the facts about the Republican Party. You know, who's not mentioned in his 6, 7 paragraph, I don't recall resignation letter, Donald Trump. As you say, these things are just happening. It's really unfortunate what's happening in American politics. You know, I mean, who could have thought it coming. Who could have thought a guy who demagogued his way to the presidency, to the nomination of the presidency in 2016, tried to launch a coup in 2020, 2021 comes back afterwards on January 20th, pardons everyone from January 6th, makes explicit that he's running a basically pro January 6th administration. I won't even go into all the details. Stuff's the Justice Department, blah, blah, blah. Who could have thought that, you know, that would be a problem for American politics?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I got into an argument with your, your friend Karl Rove on a panel, I think it was back in January. And it was friendly argument but like it actually centered on Tillis. So I want to bring this up because he was basically making the case that like it's good to have somebody like Tillis in there. We'd rather have somebody like Tillis in there because, you know, when push comes to shove, he's not crazy and he's not going to push crazy stuff. And I was on the side of not really actually it's maybe net zero. Like maybe doesn't matter at all if it's Tilis versus a crazy person because Tillis votes like a crazy person essentially. Or maybe it's actually net harmful because Tillis provides a patina of coverage to vote for MAGA for people like Karl Rove and for people who read Karl Rove and the Wall Street Journal type Republicans. And so we went back and forth on that and the news to me is just like it's sort of a pointless argument because all these people are just again, they're checking out, they're extincting themselves. And in the end, the only time they ever show any backbone is when they're already one foot out the door. And it's reminiscent to me of the 2016 primary, where the toughest anti Trump speech that every candidate gave except Jeb was their concession speech. Scott Walker, Rick Perry, you don't remember this now because they've all got on board, but all their concession speeches were like, we must stop Trump. He's a danger to the party.

[Bill Kristol]

And Cruz, as late as the convention.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, Cruz, yeah, as late as the convention. Right. It's the same. It's just a Senate version of all that. It's like, oh, finally, now that I'm retiring, I can do the right thing. And it's like, well, if you weren't gonna do it while you were in, then what was the point of having you?

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah. And incidentally, the one thing that Tillis and Susan Collins do do is perhaps hold seats that might otherwise be endangered if they didn't have that moderate patina in those states. So goodbye. I mean, good riddance. You know, they are votes ultimately for the Republican majority and 95% of the the case. And that's doing a lot of very, very bad things and not opposing Trump and confirming Trump's nominees in 95% of the cases. So forget it.

[Tim Miller]

So I Tillis in Mississippi, maybe we'll take. Because it'd be a free. Well, the 5% of times he's opposed.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, I guess so. No. So I am for Mark now that I hadn't really thought about it until we were talking, but Tillis mentioned explicitly your friend Mark Robinson. I'm for him being the nominee. And I think some democrats are putting $50 million in some dark money pack to make Mark Robinson the nominee so we can lose by 15 points. So we a Democratic senator from North Carolina who might actually do something about some of these horrible things that Trump and MAGA are doing.

[Tim Miller]

And by the way, and one last thing on this. Oh, bipartisanship is dead. You know who the Democrats are trying to recruit in North Carolina? Their leading candidate, Roy Cooper. The kind of moderate governor who would come to the Senate and govern and want to govern in an independent and bipartisan fashion. And who are the Republicans gonna nominate? Either Trump or the RNC chair who replaced Ronna Romney because she wasn't sycophantic.

[Bill Kristol]

Enough and wasn't into the election denying stuff enough.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, Those will be the two leading candidates. Hey, guys. This episode is sponsored by American Giant. American Giant's about keeping things simple and close to home. They aren't affected by the tariffs because their products never left the United States. Buy in from American Giant, supports American manufacturers and here's the good news. The clothes are great. They're very norm core. But normcore is in right now. I got myself some shorty shorts. I got a little one there and as short as I'd like them to be honest. But that's just the nature of the products these days. Got a nice basic long sleeve tee. You've probably seen me in the American Giant hoodies are the bomb. My husband had American Giant hood even before they were sponsoring us and it's his favorite one. So highly recommend across the board. Choosing American Giant means taking a stand for hard working people, local communities and quality clothes through American ingenuity and innovation. They went against the current to do better. It all started with that greatest hoodie ever made which I just mentioned. Then came jeans, T shirts and more. Support American made tariff free clothing with American Giant. Get 20% off your first order when you use promo code [e-mail] that's 20% off and you use code [e-mail] Go get some clothes. Two other things on this bill. Murkowski. We should save a word for Lisa Murkowski who I'd love to have on the pod. Would love to have you Senator Murkowski. She came onto this bill I guess because she cut a deal for Alaska where the SNAP requirements. Now I think the parliamentarian kind of ruled against part of this but there's gonna be some carve out for the cuts to snap which is food stamps for Alaskans. Originally I think it was for people in the non contiguous states.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, that's how they were able to justify. I don't think you can quite legally maybe in the Senate literally say Alaska is exempt from this. You have to have a fake kind of surface rationale that doesn't name the state. So the two non contiguous states in Alaska are exempt from the. I don't know what they are, the fraud requirements or something.

[Tim Miller]

That's an absurd thing to do. It's a ludicrous rationale to vote for a bill. I understand caring about Alaska and all this, but there's a lot of other horrible stuff in the bill as you mentioned, all the ICE money Lisa Murkowski is for that. Just the redistribution of the tax tables in an inverse way. Just the irresponsibility on the debt side. And there's plenty of other reasons to oppose it. The funny part for me though is the Hawley. You bring back Hawley who thinks he cares about this. It's like I don't know why didn't Missouri get this deal? You know what I mean? Why is it just Alaska? And shouldn't Josh Hawley have drove a harder bargain? I guess maybe he hopes that the Missourians don't know what contiguous means so they don't realize that they're getting a raw deal.

[Bill Kristol]

But if this is a good thing, I mean again, if the Democrats had any, you know, they should stand on the floor and point to Murkowski. But they won't do that because they like her and she works with them on some things. Not many, but a few. And maybe they're right not to, I don't know. But I feel like it would be nice if they said, you know what, if this is a good deal for Alaska, why isn't it a good deal for the other 48 states? Why are you imposing, I mean by definition, if you think this is the right thing for you, shouldn't it be the right thing for everyone else? And why are you imposing these draconian requirements that are just fancy ways of getting people off Medicaid. They're fake anti fraud and so forth requirements.

[Tim Miller]

And I had Kona on this week. It's all just like more paperwork.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Which is very the efficient. The Doge conservative view is just like we're gonna make the paperwork as onerous as possible.

[Bill Kristol]

Right. So if it's good for Alaska not to have this paperwork, why shouldn't it be good for the other states? I don't know.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I concur and I think we'll see a lot for the Democrats today we'll be monitoring that because they're gonna have the vote Arama and all that. So we'll, so we'll see. We can give some awards out tomorrow to whoever, whoever did the best. One other just item because I don't think I've mentioned it on this bill they have a rule that there's going to be no, you're not allowed if you're a state to do any AI regulation for five years. And if you do some, you're not going to get the infrastructure money. I guess it's going to some of the power, the old power sectors. It's just like this is such a backwards bill. It's like you're not going to get the money for your energy production which is not going to be green or climate conscious. And if you do any regulation on AI for five years, I mean neither of us are experts on AI, but I've seen enough as far as how quickly the progress has been made. And who knows, maybe it Plateaus from now for five years. We'll see. But that's not what the smart AI people say. Most of the smart AI people say there's going to be exponential advancement over the next five years. So it's like we're going to make a rule now that you can't do any regulation on this at all. If you're California, where you're the state that houses all these companies in 2029, that seems insane to me.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, it's one thing if they wanted to say, but the federal government's going to step up and really resolve this.

[Tim Miller]

But I don't see a lot of the opposite. Oh, this is the handout to the Marc Andreessens of the world. That's what they want. They want total laissez faire government when it comes to artificial human intelligence.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, you can't really make it up. I mean, we're going out and snatching hardworking immigrants who've been here for decades who are doing jobs and working hard and paying taxes and so forth, raising families because. Because we want deportation, because we believe in the great replacement theory. So that's there. We've got hugely intrusive government, the masked ICE agents and all this AI, which is kind of a serious issue and might do a lot of damage to the country and the world. Much more than a few immigrants getting picked up at seven elevens to take day jobs. AI, we're not going to touch it, right?

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[Tim Miller]

Okay, I want to rapid fire through a couple other news items. The UVA president James Ryan also resigned. I guess the DOJ was looking into their DEI policies at uva. This seems like simultaneously to me absurd government intrusion and authoritarian creep. And also kind of a weak need submission in the face of that.

[Bill Kristol]

Certainly the first. I mean, really kind of amazing, right? If the policies are. There's no evidence the policies were unconstitutional at the time or were any different from 9,000 other institutions policies. But if they were, they should have. I think they were willing to change them. They did change them. They wanted a scalp. They got the president who was near to finishing up his term anyway. My sense is that he didn't, but clearly the board told him was willing to pay that price. I believe if the board had said, we're with you. This is outrageous. We're the proud state of Virginia, Virginia, the origin of the American Revolution. Revolution and give us liberty and give us death and all this. We're not letting you, the federal government tell us who our president should be. But of course they are letting the federal government tell them who their president should be and why. I believe it's partly because 14 of the 17 members, if I'm not mistaken, of the Board of Visitors of UVA are appointed by Glenn Youngkin and the Republican governor of Virginia. And they all have to get along with Donald Trump because you know, Youngkin, if he gets lucky, maybe he could be Donald Trump Jr. S vice presidential candidate in 2028. Who knows, maybe one of those guys on the Board of Visitors can get a CA Cabinet position if one of the original ones gets sick of it. You know, I mean, it's really the degree, but it is. Seriously. I mean, it shows how deep the authoritarianism and the authoritarian corruption goes, right? And we're not hungry. I mean, America, come on, you can't take over. You can't intimidate the media, you can't take over universities.

[Tim Miller]

You don't hear much from your governor anymore.

[Bill Kristol]

Whatever happened to him? I don't know. We have a good gubernatorial campaign going which hopefully Abigail Spanberger will win. I think she will. And Mike Ishero will win in New Jersey. We'll have two good, moderate, hawkish and competent Democratic governors in two pretty important states.

[Tim Miller]

Speak of hawkish, we had a little kind of tit a tat last week over Iran. Some new news on that front. United States obtained intercepted communications between senior Iranian officials discussing the strikes. Apparently their remark was that the attack was less devastating than they had expected. Atomic weapons inspector in A separate story says that potentially they could be back online in months. Some of this stuff is like, how do you even determine it? It's like people with agendas are leaking one way or the other. I don't know that we're getting the full picture. That said, I think one thing we do know is, and it wasn't the overwhelming victories that Donald Trump had said. And so if he wants to keep maintaining that line, that is going to create tensions both with reality and I think with Israel probably in the coming months. I don't know, what do you make of all that?

[Bill Kristol]

No, I agree. And especially with reality. I mean, his original statement, one reason I was a little accommodating to it, or he said something, incidentally, if they try to rebuild it, we'll go back in and do this again, something like that. Remember, that was very original statement. And so, okay, that's the right attitude to take. Plus, we don't know if we got everything. So you gotta, as Adam Kinzinger said I think yesterday, you know, fine, load the planes back up and go in three days later and do some more damage and maybe get a better damage assessment. That's not Trump's attitude. He wanted it to be one and done. Great victory. Peace in our time. He's now going towards a deal, it looks like, with Iran. That will be a. Betray all of his hawkish supporters. And I mean, so, I don't know, you could end up with the worst of all worlds, right? He's bombed. He's not going to bomb again. The Iranians have taken the hit. The regime's in power. No regime change. And they've set back some, I'm sure, but they'll reconstitute the nuclear program and in secret and maybe with more.

[Tim Miller]

And meanwhile, Israel doesn't want the deal.

[Bill Kristol]

Right.

[Tim Miller]

And they've got. And they've got Mossad agents clearly, like inside Iran and who knows what else.

[Bill Kristol]

Maybe they can keep just blowing things up and keep on delaying it, which isn't the worst outcome, I suppose, but it just shows again, how. I'd say, I thought there was a moment of minor hope, fleeting hope there for Trump as commander in chief, but he's really busy frittering away whatever possible good he did.

[Tim Miller]

I'm sorry I had to dash that for you. We'll keep monitoring. Speaking of the Iranian regime still being in place, there's another story that got in my craw this weekend that I just want to talk about with you for a second. You were just talking about all these deportations at 7/11. This one is even worse. This is happening in the New Orleans suburbs. It's close to me. An Iranian woman who's lived in the United States for 47 years and has no criminal record was detained by federal agents last Sunday. So she's now been in detention for over a week. As she was gardening outside of her home, Donna Kashanian, 64, was handcuffed and placed in the back of a pickup truck by agents who arrived in three unmarked vehicles. She was transported to Mississippi, where she spent the night. Now a week, spent the night in jail. And then to the south back of the South Louisiana ICE Processing Center. This is very efficient where she's been for the last week. She came to the United States in 78 on a student visa, applied for asylum, but her claim was denied. Federal officials granted her a reprieve to stay in the country, though, provided she followed the law and appeared at regular immigration appointments. Family member said she has never missed one of those appointments and never been accused of a crime. James Gunn is in New Orleans reporting on that. And this is just so insane. And it comes. I should put one other piece of context around this and get your reply. Why did this happen? Well, we don't actually have to guess, because the DHS put out a press release that was talking about all the Iranians that they nabbed after the bombings. So the ice, I guess, decided because we were in this skirmish with Iran that it was the moment to go down their checklist of any people who they have who are Iranian and go find them and smoke them out again. It's like the Venezuela thing. Maybe there's a couple bad Iranians on that list. I don't know. I'm pretty sure that Donna Kashanian in Lakeview was not a sleeper cell like Iranian agent planning a counterattack in the country, but she was purely targeted based on ethnicity and race and country of origin.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah. And I think the targeting is the interesting part. Interesting is not the right word, but kind of the grotesque part. Right. That they went out. It's not like sometimes they go to some place where there are a lot of people, some of whom were undocumented. They pick up a lot of people, some of them aren't there or they are undocumented. I still think it's stupid and bad to treat them the way they've been treated and to kick them out of the country if they're doing no harm. But at least, okay, it happens. Or if they pick up, they're going after an actual criminal and in the Course of it, they pick up people he's hanging out with who are undocumented. They went. This took a lot of work. They had to go. Someone went through the whole computer. You know, Iranians who are. Who are. Why do we know that she's Iranian and that she's there? Because she's been reporting every year or month or whatever she's supposed to report. Right. She's, like, diligently following the rules she was given. And now you're out. So Pam Bondi can put out a press release. And there was.

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[Bill Kristol]

Wasn't there a big thing about. We're getting those Iranians here. You know, we've got 12 of them already deported because it's. So it's really good task.

[Tim Miller]

And we're going to deport her back to where we literally just bombed Iran.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

So we're going to report. Deport her back to the ayatollah, where she hasn't been in a half century.

[Bill Kristol]

No. We'll send her to South Sudan or to Rwanda or Rwanda. Some other place. And now it is grotesque. I mean, the degree of. Just as I say, it's one thing to have a harsh and even cruel, I would say immigration policy, but. Okay, it's a policy, I guess you'd say, and we can just debate it. But this is not even that. This is for the sake of the press release. We're arresting a woman who's minding her own business and has lived here for almost 50 years.

[Tim Miller]

47 years. She came in school.

[Bill Kristol]

So Pam Bondi can strut around. I mean, dhs, it should all be defunded. It should all be. Oh, yeah, I'm sorry, Christy. That was bad. Yeah, that was. They're bad, Pam. Bodies bad, too.

[Tim Miller]

Just different departments, I think.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah. Dhs, really? I sort of had come around to defunding ICE about a month or two ago, but now I'm just on the defund DHS thing. Would this country ultimately be safer if there were no dhs? Maybe there should be tsa. I don't know. And are they part of dhs?

[Tim Miller]

I'm pretty anti tsa, but they're hard.

[Bill Kristol]

I'd say they're mostly harmless. I mean, they're, you know.

[Tim Miller]

Can we do. Just a quick aside. It's been 24 years since 9 11, and people are still taking off their shoes. It's a ridiculous system.

[Bill Kristol]

Invest in the. What's it called? The pre check.

[Tim Miller]

You don't have to take off. I do. I have. I don't. I'm not taking off My shoes. But there's still people taking off their shoes. And they've changed. How much money did we spend? This was my dojing. They've changed to the new scanners for the bags. And the system is worse now. They do the thing where they centralized it. So your bag goes in and then someone's watching it. But, like, sometimes your bag just sits in there now. And I'm getting fucking annoyed and I'm like, how is the system less efficient than it was in 2003, two years after 9, 11. So, no, I could get rid of all of it. DSA Tom Nichols said he was against DHS from the start. So he said that's a principled stand for him because something about efficiencies and any of the elements of DHS that they do could also be done.

[Bill Kristol]

Well, they all existed, obviously, many of them existed before DHS existed in different departments, treasury and justice and other places. And there's. I think at the time, there's. This was a classic case where we began by talking about bipartisanship and all. This was a wonderful bipartisan, centrist thing. I think it was Lieberman and Collins, and I love Joe Lieberman and I respect Susan Collins. This was going to make it all better. And sometimes all that bipartisan stuff doesn't work too well either. You know what I mean? It might have been better just to leave these agencies where they were. But anyway, DHS has become kind of. But the money that's going to dhs, it's going to become. It is. I mean, it sounds hysterical to even say it this way, but it is going to become virtually Trump's internal police force. And you put that together with the troops that he's mobilized, which we've all decided, I guess is fine. They're still out in la. There's a bit of a riot in LA in two weeks. Has there been since before the Iran war? They're out, but they're. The National Guard and the Marines are out there. And they've laid the predicate very explicitly in Trump's memo and elsewhere to use the troops wherever else they want. And it's only the Supreme Court. I can just get on. Are they doing anything? I mean, the district courts have tried to do a few things. Supreme Court basically slapped them down last week. And so for all I know, maybe there's some case chugging its way leisurely through the court. Chief Justice Roberts is telling us all not to get too upset. Shouldn't really criticize the judges. You know, they're really. It's just a sore loser if you criticize the judges. Didn't Roberts say something like that on Saturday? I mean, another established Republican who's useless. If I could say, anyway, the courts aren't gonna save us. But it's bad. It's bad the dhs and there's gonna.

[Tim Miller]

Be more people in ICE detention than in the federal prison system. If this thing all goes. If they get all of their plans. That's how big their plans are. I'm glad you mentioned the military in the streets. I'm now tweeting, like, wait, just basically once a day. It's like, are there still military in Los Angeles? Why? Why? They don't even offer a stated rationale. And everybody just kind of has moved on. It's not on the news.

[Bill Kristol]

My friend Tom Joslin, with whom I did very good, if I could say podcast yesterday, people might watch it. The Bulwark on Sunday. Very, very good. Forest, not trees. Kind of look at the progress of Trump's authoritarian agenda over the eight months since he was elected. It's pretty scary when you step back and look at everything that's happening on the troops thing. That's an important part of it, normalizing that, getting people used to it. So when there is a riot somewhere or some real disturbance somewhere, suddenly there's not 4,000, there's 24,000. And it's not just National Guard, it's Marines and so forth.

[Tim Miller]

Just one more thing on the Iranian woman. Because I was just thinking about this, the idea that I can understand why people on the national side would be like, well, it's like, whatever, she didn't follow the rules. It's like, this is just how things have worked throughout the whole country. I was thinking about this. I was looking at the woman. It made me think about my mother's grandmother. So my great grandmother on the maternal side, Taiti, she came from Lebanon. Her husband was probably in an arranged marriage situation or something, at least in that ballpark, was older. My great grandfather came over, got a job, worked, brought Tyti over. They had seven kids, grew up here. Three of them, at least three served in World War II. I was reading the diaries of one of my great uncles who I wrote diaries about his time. He was in Hawaii when Pearl harbor was bombed. I was reading the diaries of that day and like the following days that he was writing at the time of the letters, he was writing home to my great grandmother. But it's like she didn't really learn English that well. Her English was poor. Did they really follow the immigration Laws, I mean, you know, and it was like the early 1900s. Like, the rules were very different back then. Right. And similarly, to this woman, it's like, would you say that she's illegal? You know, because when you bring this up, sometimes people are like, well, they broke the law to come into this country. But she really didn't. She came as a student. Now I'm talking about this Donna Kashanian woman in New Orleans. She came as a student and then applied for asylum. Didn't get it, but then they said she could stay. Right? So it's not like she came across the Rio Grande. Right. So similar situation. And I just. I'm thinking to myself, like, imagine my great grandmother being 65, like, in the St. Louis suburbs, like, gardening outside the home and thinking about, like, my mother, my uncles and aunts, and, like, them being kids, and, like, having her be snatched and, like, handcuffed and put into the back of a truck and then had a bunch of people being like, well, she never. She never learned the language. Wasn't really an American. It's like, no, that is how the whole country has happened. Like, people like this coming to the country. You know, my great grandmother had kids, served in the military. She had grandkids who are doctors and members of their upstate members of the community. Now here I am blabbing my fucking mouth on a podcast. That's how shit works in this country. And the idea that we're gonna start taking these people. She is not any less of an American than Stephen Miller in any meaningful way. The whole thing is just. It feels very against the American tradition. And I just think it's important that everybody talks about it, because you start to see this conventional wisdom that came in that it's not good to talk about immigration. That's a good winner for Trump. I just reject it because everybody has a story like this.

[Bill Kristol]

Nativism is sadly part of the American tradition, too, both in the 1920s, obviously, and in the 1850s. Lincoln was really appalled by it when he saw it with the Germans. His great speech in Cincinnati about the prejudice against those immigrants. And he famously has that statement about, some people are the grandchildren, he says, great grandchildren, of people who fought in the American Revolution. Some people's parents just came over. We're all equally Americans, you know, and that one seems to quite have the nerve. Well, not no one, but people should say that more often today. I couldn't agree more. And the nativism is ugly. You know, I used to think that was kind of an unfortunate and weird episodes in American History. But I could see people were a little freaked out. Too many people speaking Italian and, you know, too many Irish guys in bars and too many Germans reading German language newspapers and all this kind of thing. But actually, it's always been uglier than that. And it really, you see the ugliness now.

[Tim Miller]

I guess that's why I brought up Taiti, because of her lack of English speaking, which is not to nag her. That's like a common complaint, right, of the nativist crowd, right? Oh, they're speaking. They're reading the German newspapers. They're not assimilating. Like, this is just like this has happened for 300 years now where this happens. Where, like, they do assimilate. Donna has children that, you know, that were doing these interviews that live in New Orleans that contribute to the community. Right? Like, that's just how things work.

[Bill Kristol]

When I was a little kid, my grandmother, after my grandfather died, moved in with us in our apartment. I guess maybe I was junior high in high school at that point. High school probably. And on my way home, I would stop at the newsstand to buy her the Yiddish newspaper, which came out in the afternoon. So, like, you couldn't. And maybe you couldn't even get it delivered. It was already dwindling away in Yiddish. You know, I kind of used to enjoy reading a few words that I could. It's written in Hebrew, which I kind of knew enough to read, but the words are Yiddish, which is really more like German. So it's just kind of a weird thing. Anyway, it's kind of interesting to me as a ninth grader to try to read three sentences. So I used to buy it, come home with this. And so she was. She had been here for 40, 50 years. Her son in law, my father, had fought in World War II. Her daughter was a professor of history. And I was buying her the Yiddish language paper. Was that so terrible?

[Tim Miller]

Well, thank God Kristi Noem wasn't around. Back then you would have been shackled and then thrown into the back of a truck. English only. All right, last thing. I'm gonna give people some dessert. Is this dessert or not? I don't know. You can decide for yourself. I suffered through Ross Douth. That's an interview with Peter Thiel. Because I'm a sick person. And there's one clip that's been going around. And in case you guys haven't had this, just the experience of being able to listen to this moment, I want to share it with all of you. You would prefer the human race to endure right.

[Bill Kristol]

You'Re hesitating. Well, I, Yes. I don't know.

[Tim Miller]

I would. This is a long hesitation. It's a long hesitation. There's so many questions. And plus, should the human race survive?

[Bill Kristol]

Yes.

[Tim Miller]

Some really hard hitting journalism from Ross Douth there. Ross gets some tough, gets some slings and arrows around these parts, but he's asking the tough questions. Do you want the human race to endure? Peter Thiel, it seems like basically the answer is no, but he doesn't want to say it, so he comes around to yes after 30 seconds. This is the man that set the vice president in place. And it's a little concerning you and Peter used to hang out. It's a little concerning the level of influence that these people have.

[Bill Kristol]

Totally. I mean, he's a very smart guy who I, 20 years ago thought was an interesting person, eccentric and his views were clearly a little off the deep end, but, you know, interesting guy to have to discuss texts of political philosophy with because he was perceptive and willing to be contrarian, to say the least. People like that. It should be a good lesson that what's interesting, sort of interesting intellectually, maybe not kind of interesting as I thought, honestly, but can be very unhealthy politically. And I guess I never, I didn't have anything to do with his success, obviously. He was already had made zillions of dollars by the time I met him. But I guess I should have seen. I guess he had some political ambitions at the time, but he was like he was writing checks to the Ron Paul campaign in 2008. It was just kind of quirky and silly. But here we are, right? I mean, it is the true. I think it's the only thing I would say is, is the true extremism. This is a point Jocelyn made very well. The movement is really extreme. Trump is a ridiculous con man who doesn't understand a word that Peter Thiel has ever said about any of this and doesn't care and is in it for himself and the grift and a little some old fashioned bigotry and so forth. But we should not underestimate the true extremism of the authoritarian movement. And Trump is on board with it. Trump is right in his own way, is. What's the expression? Riding that tiger. And this is Tom's point. He can't get off the idea that he can just say at some point this stuff's gone a little far. I mean, he's tried to say it once or twice. Right. Why are we deporting the guys? My hotel friends say are useful to keep the hotels going. And then Miller says this and the movement says this and suddenly Trump. Yeah, I guess we have to do that. The degree of authoritarianism we can get with a buffoon like Trump as leader of that authoritarian movement or the nominal leader. I guess I've slightly underestimated that. I've always thought that would be a bit of a check on the extremism. Maybe it's a bit of a check, but it sure isn't much of one.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I agree with all of that. And I'll just say for the listeners, if that little morsel wasn't enough and you want the full meal, there is also like a five minute discussion of who the Antichrist is on that podcast. And Peter Thiel suggests it might be Greta Thunberg or a Greta Thunberg like figure could be the Antichrist. So anyway, Peter and Ross agree there.

[Bill Kristol]

Is such a person around. It's just a question of identifying the right person.

[Tim Miller]

I think they both agree that the Antichrist is out there. Yeah, I was like, Peter suggests it might be Greta Thunberg. And then he goes down a weird tangent and I was like, man, that was strange. And then like four minutes later Ross is like, I want to circle back to the Antichrist question. It's quite the podcast. I'd encourage you guys to listen. Lastly, my only other thing is, and it relates to the AI stuff, I agree with all of you on the near term acute authoritarian danger. I'm just now increasingly starting to monitor though the medium term tech oligarch fascist authoritarian danger, the degree to which they do not care about humans. That is a funny quote, but it is an anti human movement. A lot of these guys really do think that we're gonna go into the singularity or that we're gonna like our, whatever our head is gonna like we're gonna be mutant figures. Like they really do think that that is coming. And, and it is, it's, it's an alarming ideology. And tying it back to the thing I mentioned earlier, like that they have inserted themselves so deeply into this like really like there's no actual necessary overlap between the nativists and, but like the nativists and the more traditional maga culture war element is a much more potent force and that they have kind of inserted themselves into it with this anti human ideology and that they are going to now make sure that Dr. Strangelove out in Silicon Valley can do whatever he wants without any oversight. I'll leave people with that alarming thought. So I don't know if you have any final thoughts.

[Bill Kristol]

I think it's a very important point. That's right. A guy named Mike Brockez.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, Mike Brockez.

[Bill Kristol]

So I've spoken to him once or twice. I don't really know him. And his most recent one's very interesting. He says exactly as your point. And then he says what they don't understand, the plutocrats and the AI types is they're going to get eaten up ultimately by the pitchfork wielding populace. And that's how it works. Often it is sometimes how it works. But I guess I'm slightly on the other side of that, which is, I don't know. These guys are powerful, the AI Plutocrats. And can't they just continue to manipulate and exploit the foolish, you know, bigoted nativists? I mean, either way is a bad outcome, whichever one is exploiting the other. Or they just stay in a kind of tension, slight tension. But they agree that the equilibrium. They agree about what they hate.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Bill Kristol]

What they have in common in terms of their hatreds. But I agree. I'm a little freaked out by the AI plutocrat side of it. And that's a real. And they are. It's a very good point you make. They are. It is kind of anti human.

[Tim Miller]

All right, everybody. Me and Bill Kristol in person. When we get in person, it gets really dark. Everybody else, we'll see you back here. I got a fun podcast tomorrow, might have to be a double header because we're gonna do a little bit of a little bit of something offbeat. But then I guess we're also gonna talk about the news, so we'll do a little bit of both. We'll see you all back here then. Peace.

[Brandon Flowers]

I did my best to notice when the call came down the line up to the platform of surrender I was brought but I was kind and sometimes I get nervous when I see an open door. Close your eyes, clear your heart, cut the cord.

[Tim Miller]

Are we human.

[Brandon Flowers]

Or are we dancer? My sign is vital My hands are cold and I'm on my knees looking for the answer?

[Tim Miller]

Are we human.

[Brandon Flowers]

Or are we dancer? My respects to grace and virtue? Send my condolences to good Give my regards to soul and romance? They always did the best they could and so long to devotion you taught me everything I know Wave goodbye, wish me well, you gotta let me know Are we human or are we dancer? My sign is vital, My hands are cold and I'm on my knees looking for the answer. Are we human or are we dancers?

[Tim Miller]

The Bulwark podcast is Produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.