Bill Kristol: MAGA's Grievance Culture

Summary

The Bulwark Podcast Summary

Episode: Bill Kristol: MAGA’s Grievance Culture
Date: February 9, 2026
Hosts: Tim Miller, Bill Kristol

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Episode Overview

This episode, hosted by Tim Miller with regular guest Bill Kristol, delves into the intersection of pop culture and politics, with special emphasis on the rise of MAGA grievance culture, political controversy over Super Bowl halftime shows, athletes’ public criticisms of the U.S., the ongoing debate about DHS/ICE funding, and strategic messaging for Democrats going into the 2026 elections.

Miller and Kristol cut through partisan talking points to highlight the underlying patterns of right-wing political culture, analyze Democratic opportunities on immigration and working-class appeal, and offer pointed commentary on recent election results and messaging strategies.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Super Bowl Halftime Show Culture Wars

• Super Bowl Recap: Both hosts agree the game was boring but diverge on the halftime performance, with discussion quickly pivoting to political criticism from conservatives of Bad Bunny and the prominence of non-English cultural moments.

• MAGA Reactionary Culture:

  • MAGA figures, including Trump and Clay Travis, criticized the performance as “un-American” for being in Spanish, representing a broader grievance against multiculturalism.
  • Kristol notes, "Some conservative friends, including back when I was in that world, they've been upset about super bowl halftime shows for like, 30 years… expecting it to be the imminent decline of America, and it didn’t seem to have much effect." (05:34)

• American Music Irony: Participants highlight the irony of conservatives longing for “true American music,” which historically draws heavily from immigrant and Black traditions.

  • Miller quips, "They just want true American music, you know, like Paul McCartney... Oh, wait. All the British brands that stole the blues music..." (06:06)
  • Kristol expands, "What would American music be like if it actually were only written by … ‘heritage Americans’? Would there be any American music?" (06:37)

2. Olympians Criticizing America and MAGA Grievance

• Athletes’ Voices: Miller plays clips of U.S. Olympians expressing discomfort in representing America due to current political policies and expressing a desire to represent love and respect.

• Right-Wing Backlash: MAGA world responds with outrage, demanding conformity and patriotism.

  • Miller: "They want to force everybody to stand in line and abide by their speech codes, the MAGA patriotic speech codes. And if they don't do it, then they're...trying to denaturalize and deport you. And it’s totally insane." (11:45)

• First Amendment Irony:

  • Kristol: "You might think that that is what it means to be an American and that to say the opposite is actually what's un-American. You can't criticize Dear Leader." (12:18)

• Patriotic Correctness: Miller frames MAGA as the new “patriotic correctness,” mirroring the left’s “political correctness” they so often derided.

• Quote:

  • Miller: "They're doing all this shit that I hated about PC culture and that they claim to have hated with the patriotic correctness." (11:45)

3. DHS/ICE Funding Debate

• Strategy for Democrats:

  • Miller explains Kristol's recent newsletter idea pushing Democrats to separate “good” DHS funding (like FEMA) from ICE and Border Patrol, forcing Republicans to vote directly on controversial elements.

• Kristol’s Position:

  • Kristol: "The less funding for ICE and Border Patrol, the better. That's my simple minded view. They're doing bad things to immigrants, obviously. They're doing bad things to Americans. They're intimidating citizens. They're part of the election...interference plan." (16:23)

• Debate Over Restrictions vs. Funding:

  • Miller discusses the internal Dem debate—should they take small wins via increased oversight/restrictions, or push harder to cut funding entirely?
  • Kristol: "Fight the funding." (16:23)

• Political Opportunity:

  • Kristol and Miller stress the political value in Democrats “staying on offense” and publicly challenging Republicans on the specifics of ICE and CBP funding.
  • Kristol: "They need to just hammer these people and say, are you against the warrants? Why are you for the masks?" (20:09)

4. Federal Corruption Revelations

• FBI/ICE Political Interference: Miller flags recent reporting confirming direct political interference from Trump allies like Kash Patel in federal investigation processes, specifically referencing suspected cover-ups.
• Quote:
  • Miller: "We're getting back to Hoover days where… the head of the FBI is saying no, we need to cover this up because it's going to make the president look bad." (22:46)
• Implications:
  • Kristol urges explicit demands for independent oversight and investigations in any future ICE funding bills.

5. Democratic Political Momentum & Special Elections

• Louisiana House Special Election:
  • Miller reports on Chasity Martinez's win as a Democrat in a deep Trump district—a local but significant Democratic victory.
  • Kristol: "The pattern's gotten pretty convincing...It's so important for Democrats to make some dents in the white working class vote, especially the white working class women...I think they have a real shot certainly at the House...and the Senate." (26:08–27:22)
• 2026 Candidate Recruitment:
  • The hosts push for late recruitment of quality Democratic challengers in red state Senate and House races, emphasizing that there’s still time to capitalize on anti-Trump trends.

6. Messaging for Democrats: Economic Populism

• Ossoff Speech as a Model:

  • Miller plays excerpts from Jon Ossoff’s recent speech targeting MAGA hypocrisy and appealing to working-class voters.
  • Ossoff quote:
    • "This is a government of, by and for the ultra rich. It is the wealthiest cabinet ever. This is the Epstein class ruling our country. They are the elites they pretend to hate...Trump was supposed to fight for the working class. Instead, he's literally closing rural clinics and hospitals to cut taxes for George Soros and Elon Musk..." (32:58)

• Effective Framing:

  • Miller: "Framing the whole thing as, like, MAGA has betrayed working class voters, is good...The Epstein class is good. Getting rid of rural hospitals for tax breaks for Soros and Musk, just throwing a little Soros dig in there, I like..." (34:27)

• Key Takeaways:

  • The need for Dems to offer a clear, targeted, working-class-friendly economic message, and tie Republican actions directly to real harms.
  • Kristol: "The moderates who still want to sound like Bill Clinton on economics are just wrong. You got to sound more like Franklin Roosevelt... He attacked the economic royalists..." (36:28)

• Specificity Matters:

  • Kristol: "Tying it to the particular, reasonably...specific policies of Trump and the particular votes of Republicans in Congress...gives you the real oomph." (39:09)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On MAGA Grievance Culture:

  • Kristol: "The grievance culture, it is really insane, right? I mean they just want to be offended by stuff." (09:34)

• On Dems Needing to Stay Aggressive:

  • Kristol: "The key honestly is to stay on offense…They need to just hammer these people." (20:09)
  • Miller: "That is what America is. You're able to love the country and criticize the leaders… These folks don't really seem to get that or don't care." (11:45)

• On Populist Messaging:

  • Ossoff: "This is a government of, by and for the ultra rich. It is the wealthiest cabinet ever. This is the Epstein class ruling our country." (32:58)
  • Kristol: "...the Epstein class thing is very important, I think. And it also shows that Epstein is actually a big issue. Political class seems to keep wanting it to go away, but then it seems like the public's quite interested, you know." (36:28)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Super Bowl Halftime Show / MAGA Cultural Grievance: 02:42 – 06:46
• Olympians Criticize America, MAGA Backlash, Patriotic Correctness: 07:07 – 12:39
• DHS/ICE Funding Bill Debate: 13:53 – 20:09
• FBI/ICE Political Interference and Cover-Up: 21:59 – 24:18
• Special Elections, Dem Momentum, Candidate Recruitment: 24:18 – 29:28
• Dem Messaging and the Ossoff Speech: 29:28 – 37:32
• Corruption, Trump, and the Epstein Class: 42:48 – end

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Final Thoughts

The episode delivers a sharp, entertaining diagnosis of right-wing grievance and the pitfalls of “patriotic correctness,” with actionable advice for Democrats: stay on the offensive, make the opposition publicly defend unpopular policies, and adopt clear, working-class-oriented messaging that capitalizes on Republican hypocrisy and corruption. Ossoff’s speech is singled out as a model for connecting with disaffected voters across the spectrum.

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"They're doing all this shit that I hated about PC culture and that they claim to have hated with the patriotic correctness. That's what they want. And it is a direct affront to like the good part of America. That's what America is. You're able to love the country and criticize the leaders, like, that's great."
—Tim Miller (11:45)

"The less funding for ICE and Border Patrol, the better. That's my simple minded view. They're doing bad things to immigrants, obviously. They're doing bad things to Americans. They're intimidating citizens. They're part of the election...interference plan."
—Bill Kristol (16:23)

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For listeners hoping to understand the roots of the MAGA reactionary impulse, its consequences for U.S. politics, and the roadmap for an effective Democratic fightback, this episode is essential listening.

Transcript

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[Tim Miller]

Hey everybody. Just an update on the live shows next week. We're in Minneapolis. I really just can't wait. I'm so excited to be with you all. February 19th show is sold out. We added one on February 18th. There's about 100 tickets left so go on and grab one or make a last second jaunt up there. If you're from a neighboring state and want to go support our friends in Minneapolis who have been out there in these streets. And then we're down in Texas March 18th and 19th for a show in Dallas on the 18th and Austin on the 19th. If you're looking for a little more warm weather, we'll see you all there. Up next, it's Monday, so it's Bill Kristol. Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host Tim Miller. It is Monday February 9th, we're on Super Bowl Monday. Slight super bowl hangover for everybody. Boring game, good halftime show. Bill Kristol. That was at least my take. That feels like the conventional wisdom. The President of the United States didn't agree. What's, what was your. Did you even watch or were you kind of just doing an old BBC documentaries last night? Yeah.

[Bill Kristol]

That's good. Thank you, Tim. No, we went over to one of the. Our kids houses and there are a couple of, couple of kids, a lot of grandchildren. We all watched the game. Not a great game. I'm just gonna say. I know, I know we're supposed to say in a sophisticated way that it was a great defensive struggle, but it was just a boring, A boring game. But I'm pro Bad Bunny because I'm of course, just ideologically, I mean, anti. Anti. I'm anti. Anti Bad Bunny is really where I am. I don't really understand or appreciate the music or the whole thing. So I want you to explain to me, I want you to justify my being anti Anti Bad Bunny and be.

[Tim Miller]

Actually, you didn't love the set design. I mean, I thought the set design was so cool with the dancing grass.

[Bill Kristol]

That was good.

[Tim Miller]

And then he comes down and he's, you know, he'. So the people in the stadium couldn't have seen him. And then he comes out and you're, you know, you're feeling like you're in the. On a sugar plantation. And then, you know, you got the guys playing domino. You know, the whole set was, it was impressive. It was a cultural, you know, moment. And, and I thought that it was high energy. You know, it was. Kept my daughter engaged. You know, sometimes this stuff gets. Keeps kids bored. I saw somebody online, said that it was like, it reminds me of the Sesame street set. And I mean that in the best way possible. Sesame street set was actually very sophisticated. You know, there's a reason it was successful for so many years. So, yeah, I thought it was really good. I played Nueva Yol for David French on Friday after I played him all the disgusting Kid Rock songs. And I thought that was.

[Bill Kristol]

I saw his reaction to that. That was good. Did you watch the Kid Rock one? I mean, that was the best of America, Tim. I mean, none of this foreign language stuff, none of this. One of the most popular musicians in the world. Let's go back and let's get Kid Rock lip syncing and, you know, other real highlights of American culture, you know.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, a bunch of people I'd never heard of, you know, talking about how they can't tell their kids about the boy, can't be a girl, or else they'll get canceled. It's really high octane stuff. Was Kelsey Grammer there doing a set? I don't know. I didn't catch it. I'll let you know. Neither did Trump, by the way. I should say that the Mar A Lago TVs were on bad Bunny, which was, I think, an affront to tposa. And Trump said this was his take, was that the Bad Bunny set made no sense. It doesn't represent. Our standards of creativity are excellent. This is not up to the standards of, you know, the Trump Trump University, of the Trump Taco bowl at Trump Tower. It wasn't up to the standards of that. A lot of others jumped on with that. You know, my old friend Clay Travis asked, would any other country in the world have their signature cultural event in a foreign language? And a lot of countries are multilingual, so, yeah, I think. I don't know. Like, I do think that the Canadians do some French stuff. And, you know, we could go down. We could go down the list. These guys just want to be upset about, you know, the other thing is, like, if. Even if you didn't like the halftime show, if it wasn't for you, not that big of a deal, really. I mean, in the grand scheme of things, I don't think it signifies the end of, you know, the fall of Rome, a halftime show you don't like.

[Bill Kristol]

I think some conservative friends, including back when I was in that world, they've been upset about super bowl halftime shows for, like, 30 years, I feel like. And, you know, they kept expecting it to be the imminent decline of America, and it didn't seem to have much effect. But one way or the other, honestly.

[Tim Miller]

A lot of people hated Kendrick's halftime show last year. Too Black.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, good point.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Bill Kristol]

You know, I wonder why that is. I mean, it's just kind of an accident that they don't like the black stuff and then the Latino guy who's praising Puerto Rican kind of culture and showing little bodega kind of scenes. Yeah. So it doesn't really speak to that. My guess.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, they just want true American music, you know, like Paul McCartney, you know, the who, Led Zeppelin. Oh, wait. All the British brands that stole the.

[Bill Kristol]

Blues music from great classics from the olden days, Christmas songs and stuff that were written by immigrants from, you know, in many case, Jews actually on Broadway. But of course, not just Jews. And, you know, all the authentic Americans like Dean Martin and Frank Sinatra and All those guys, they're heritage Americans, Tim. Those people, they've been here for 200, 300 years.

[Tim Miller]

Their ancestors on the Mayflower.

[Bill Kristol]

Can you imagine what American music would be like if it actually were only written by heritage? Is there. By, quote, heritage Americans? I mean, would there be any American music?

[Tim Miller]

I mean, yeah, I don't know. Tyler Childers would probably still exist. He's Apollo Latchen. His record's pretty good, but it'd be slim pickings, I guess I would tell you that much. This is all silliness. I feel like a related controversy regarding what our Olympians are saying carries a little bit more actual weight. A lot of Olympians are being asked about what they think about American politics. Putting my cards on the table. I think that it's good for individuals to be able to express what they really think. I think it's telling that the Russian Olympians never seem to criticize their country. I don't think it's because everything's going so well over there. You know, I think it's because there are limits to what the culture allows. So, anyway, that's my preference. Others disagree. I want to listen to a couple of the freestyle skiers, so my people, you know, a couple bros, you know, potheads, talking about what they. What they thought after their event. I feel heartbroken about what's happened in the United States when, you know, I'm pretty sure you're referencing ice and some of the protests and things like that. I think that as a country, we need to focus on respecting everybody's rights and making sure that we're treating our citizens as well as anybody with love and respect. And I hope that when people look at athletes compete in the Olympics, they realize that that's the America that we're trying to represent. It brings up mixed emotions to represent the US Right now. I think it's a little hard. There's obviously a lot going on that I'm not the biggest fan of, and I think a lot of people aren't. If it aligns with my moral values, I feel like I'm representing it. Just because I'm wearing the flag doesn't mean I represent everything that's going on in the U.S. so, yeah, I just kind of want to do it for my friends and my family and the people that support me getting here. Love and respect and just want to represent the elements of the country that I align with. My moral architecture seems fine.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, it's very telling, isn't it, that people get offended when someone says we should treat everyone with love and respect. It's like they understand that to me, at attack on MAGA and an ice, which it is, it's not an attack exactly, but it is a rebuke to them. And they asked the questions. They weren't going out being grandstanders to be fair. Right. And they're giving press avails, whatever. They do press conferences over there. They're asked the question, they gave honest and I thought rather thoughtful and eloquent answers really. I mean they distinguished the country from the Trump administration basically. So they weren't just saying America's a horrible place because we have a horrible president. They went out of their way to do that. I sort of admire them. And as you say, the key point is, I mean, they could decline to answer the question, I suppose, but you don't see the Saudis or the Russians or the Iranians or Chinese doing a lot of this. And you know what it makes. I'm glad the Americans are doing it. So no, I'm totally with you and MAGA world and Trump himself. The grievance culture, it is really insane, right? I mean they just want to be offended by stuff.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, they love to so much at.

[Bill Kristol]

The heart of what they are. I guess I've sort of underestimated that. I think maybe over the years they're running the country, they're stealing tens of billions of dollars. They' beating up and killing not to be make light of it. You know, people who are protesting against.

[Tim Miller]

Them, pardoning the people, they're criminals that are supportive of their totally.

[Bill Kristol]

They're like. And, and they still are just full of grievance and resentment that some 23 year old kid in whatever those bizarre sports that you like so much or what is, what are, what are those things? Freestyle. When did those become? When did those become? I'm a little behind in the Olympic, the winter Olympic sports stuff. Anyway, it's looking kind of fun. I watched about 10 minutes though of them like flipping around here. They're talented, it's impressive. And I do think the culture of that one is so funny because it's so much the opposite. Like someone made this point of like the slalom with all these very, you know, sports where it's, you got to cut a tenth of a second off and you aerodynamically this and you tilt this thing and these other guys are.

[Tim Miller]

Like just freelancing away, are like sleeping in, you know, oxygen deprivation tanks and you know, like eating only skinless chicken breast and broccoli and like these dudes are like getting off and having moon Pies and hitting the ball. It is a cultural separation. In addition to the grievance mongering and the fact that these guys just like to complain. There is like the woke right element to this, what I like to call the patriotic correctness. I wasn't really a big fan of political correctness. That was something that we agreed with. I mean, some of it is okay. There's other elements of it went too far. I thought there were some critiques that were fine. They're doing all this shit that I hated about PC culture and that they claim to have hated with the patriotic correctness. I just want to read a couple of these people. Rob Schneider, the actor, he's got a book about free speech. And then he responded to those clips I just played saying, take off the flag and give up your citizenship, whatever your book about free speech. Katie Miller WIFE of heir Stephen Miller if you can't say you love America while competing on behalf of our nation, then you shouldn't be there. Megyn Kelly Hess should be stripped of his ability to rep the USA and sent home. I mean, they want to force everybody to stand in line and abide by their speech codes, the MAGA patriotic speech codes. That's what they want. And if they don't do it, then they're going to cancel you or they want to cancel you, or they're trying to. They might even try to denaturalize and deport you. And it's totally insane, like, what they're doing. And it is a direct affront to like the good part of America. It's like, that is what America is. You're able to love the country and criticize the leaders, like, that's great. That's a fundamental element of being an American. And these folks don't really seem to get that or don't care.

[Bill Kristol]

You might think that that is what it means to be an American and that to say the opposite is actually what's un American. You can't criticize Dear Leader. But that's just. That's yesterday, Tim. You got to get with the times here. You know, criticizing Dear Leader. I mean, that is not. You can't do that. That's really disrespectful. And probably you should be at least stripped of your citizenship and maybe just thrown into jail, you know, thrown it through a detention.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I don't understand what time it is. We need authoritarianism for real American spirit. Y. Yeah, we need authoritarianism to bring back the true American heritage. All right. Any other sports Talk before we move on to issues of the day.

[Bill Kristol]

Have you watched much of the Olympics?

[Tim Miller]

You know, I have not. There's a lot happening. I like the Olympics. Like back in college when I had a lot of free time and I was doing what some of the freestyle skiers were doing after they got off the mountain, I would sit around and watch luge and curlink and gamble on it or whatever. And so I haven't had a ton of time, but I do enjoy, I enjoy the spectacle. I like the regalia.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, I haven't watched much. I did flip it on a couple of times and seemed to every time I did they were doing curling, which I can't say curling is really, for me at least. I don't want to criticize anyone else. It's not unamerican to like it. People can do whatever they want. It's a free country. But I don't know curling really. So I did eight seconds of research like why is curling a Winter Olympic sport? And the answer is somehow it was in the first Olympics in 1924. I had no idea why. Then they kicked it out for 75 years, which may be a reasonable judgment, but they somehow got it back in there in 1998 and now it's in there. And I'm sure I'm being unfair and I'm sure it's very interesting and all that.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I think there's high drama at the end of the curling matches and I think you can make anything interesting via gambling. That'd be one piece of advice. Why waste the time? And let me tell you, it is a lot of time because I had to do this wandering around a blind store trying to figure out what to do for your blinds when you can have three day blinds bring the showroom to you allows you to spend your Saturday brunching, not blind shopping. With three day Blinds, there's a better way to buy blinds, shades, shutters and drapery. They're the leading manufacturer of high quality custom window treatments in the US and right now, if you use my URL 3dayblinds.com thebullwork they are running a buy one get one 50% off deal. We can shop for almost anything at home. Why not shop for blinds too? Three Day Blinds has local professionally trained design consultants who have an average of 10 plus years experience that provide expert guidance on the right blinds for you in the comfort of your home. Just set up an appointment. You'll get a free no obligation quote the same day. If you're not very handy, you know that's me. Three Day Blinds can handle the installation as well. They design, measure and install so you can sit back, relax and leave it to the pros. I was just checking out the three Day Blinds Instagram the other day and there's some new stuff out there. There's some new stuff that I'm liking that I'm interested in and I'm getting tempted. I'm getting tempted. Hope my husband's not listening to this right now. Get quality window treatments that fit your budget with three day blinds. Head to three dayblinds.com the bulwark for their buy one, get one 50% off deal on custom blinds, shades, shutters and drapery for a free no charge, no obligation consultation. Just head to 3dayblinds.com the Bulwark one last time that's buy one get one 50% off when you head to the number 3D a Y blinds.com the Bulwark let's go to what's happening actually in our government. The big debate of the week, I think, is going to be over this DHS funding bill. You know, they've kicked it the two weeks it separated it out from the rest of the budget to avoid a government shutdown. You wrote about this in the newsletter this morning and basically made the case that the Democrats should offer to the Republicans that they'll separate out the useful parts of dhs, female, any other elements that might be needed, and then have a debate solely on the 10 billion funding for ICE and the 6 billion for Border Patrol, which obviously the Democrats would argue should not be appropriated. That was basically your take. Do you want to expand on that?

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, no, they succeeded in separating out the DHS bill, the Homeland Security bill from the other appropriations bill. So the way to the next step of that would be to separate out the reasonable parts of DHS from ICE and Border Patrol. They should push that. I think I asked some Democrat late last week, why aren't you pushing that? Well, we get more leverage for now if they're all mixed together. I think they're overthinking it. That way they can just say we're for fema, we're for whatever other stuff, Coast Guard, I guess, and a couple other things. Tsa. But we're not for ICE and Border Patrol. You said quickly in passing. Well, of course the Dems would be against funding that. But that is not their official position. Their official position I think, unfortunately, really is, you know, we have all these restrictions we're going to put on it. And you know, and I'M for those restrictions, they would improve, I guess ICE and Border Patrol pretty unenforceable. Trump administration is pretty good at ignoring congressional restrictions. They should defund it as much as possible. I mean there's a. Now someone will say back to me correctly, well, there's already all this funding in the stupid reconciliation bill from last year. So all you're doing is kind of reducing the rate of growth of ICE in the Border Patrol. But that's important actually. And there are other people who say, well, but this money's for slightly different things than the money in the reconciliation bill. The less funding for ICE and Border Patrol, the better. That's my simple minded view. They're doing bad things to immigrants, obviously. They're doing bad things to Americans. They're intimidating citizens. They're part of the election 2026 and 2028 election interference plan. And so the less funding the better. So I think they should just focus a little more on the funding. I think that's really where the power is. You know, Stephen Miller was not stupid when he put all that money into the reconciliation bill for ICE and Border Patrol. So I'm a little more focused on the funding. I'm fine with the restrictions, but the restrictions are really less important than the funding, I think. So that's my only advice to the Democrats. Fight the funding.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, sure. I like the argument of separating out just because it's like then you can, then you're basically have a clear message. You're saying to the Republicans, it's like you can, if you want to shut down this stuff because you want to fund ice, you know, and cbp, that's okay, that's your call. But like we support that. Edgar and I did a video on this. You can go watch it from Bullock takes a couple left from last week and Edgar I think has a slightly different view from you where he's like, take some W's, you know, like let's, let's try to make things meaningfully better for people. And if that means that, that we get them to take off their masks and they have to have new rules around warrants and you know, some of these various things that they're talking about, then like that's better than the status quo. I struggled with that because I, there's an element of that argument I agree with and I think at the end of the day that would be a win. It would be not nothing, but I also just like putting myself in this shoe, which I will never be. I appreciate the notes I get about this sometimes But I will never be a senator. I have no interest. If I were, I think it'd be really hard for me to cast a vote that had any funding for them. Even if you kind of deal on the other stuff.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah. So maybe let the others pass it then. But you know what? The Republicans aren't going to agree to this anyway, in my opinion, and Trump's not. So to those stipulations they want if the Democrats hang tough on those. So I don't know that they really need to decide between these two strategies. They just need to say we're for all these things. The Republicans at some point say we can't accept them. The Democrats say, well, fine, then separate out the other stuff. Fund the Coast Guard and FEMA and we're just not going to fund. I mean, the good news is the, the CR runs out on Friday. Right. So if there's no funding, there's no funding. So, you know, then they'll draw down some of the funding that's already in there in unfortunately from last year's, you know, five year appropriation to fund stuff they want. But at least there'll be less money sloshing around. Yeah, ICE and Border Patrol World.

[Tim Miller]

And then that's Katie Britt. You know, she was crying with the New York Times last week about what ICE and CBP has been doing. And so, yeah, maybe she will come along. You know, I don't know. You never know. You never know. Maybe those tears were authentic and she wants to put some policy backbone behind those feelings. We are on offense on this. And we being the people that are.

[Bill Kristol]

Opposed to this, the key honestly is to stay on offense. And the key is not to sort of say, we're not going to really negotiate in public here. We're going to have back room discussions. Chuck Schumer this, that, you know, and we'll work it all out here quietly. Negotiations work better, Tim, when they're not all public, they need to just hammer these people and say, are you against the warrants? Why are you for the masks? And you defend that publicly. And Katie Britt, you said you were very upset. Where are you? They really, I think, need to maximize this opportunity.

[Tim Miller]

Listeners think back to a first date where you were really interested in someone. You probably ask them important questions like what are your deal breakers? Or I don't know, maybe if you're Barry Weiss's sister, you might ask what their goal weight is. And if you're a normal person, you just ask them other things to try to get a better idea of whether they're the right person for you. Well, the same goes for hiring. And you don't always get the first date tingles. That's why you need ZipRecruiter. When you post your job, ZipRecruiter suggests screening questions to help you hone in on top candidates faster. And today you can try it for [e-mail] Bulwark ZipRecruiter's matching technology immediately finds qualified candidates that checks all your boxes. ZipRecruiter recommends screening questions you can easily add to get the highest quality applicants. I want to see who's recently active. ZipRecruiter's filters can show you that. So ask key questions and hire faster. With ZipRecruiter, four out of five employees who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it for free at ZipRecruiter.com bulwark that's ZipRecruiter.com bulwarK meet your match on ZipRecruiter. Related News this is from the Times over the weekend. We all knew this, but when you have reporting, it's good to just accentuate because the news cycle moves so fast, people forget stuff and it's just like it's important to just have on the record. There were FBI agents that were preparing to do routine forensic analysis of the scene following Renee Goods killing. They received orders from political leadership to stop. Those orders came from senior leadership, including Kash Patel, obviously. We also know that there is an ongoing cover up of the, whatever, you know, kangaroo investigation that they're looking into after the with regards to the Preddy killing because they're not working with local officials. We've heard from Fry and Walls and others on that. So it is striking just in the sense of this is different, you know, like lying, spinning, trying to, you know, whitewash stuff like that's been in the playbook for Trump for sure. But other presidents in the past, like we're getting back to Hoover days where it's like, no, the head of the FBI is saying no, we need to cover this up because it's going to make the president look bad.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, totally. Maybe they should make that a condition incidentally of ICE funding as well if they want to.

[Tim Miller]

Independent investigations. Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Kristol]

And I think they mention it one of their 10 points, but it's sort of vague and they could explicitly address the two killings and say we want right now independent groups established with some people selected from outside the administration to investigate the two killings that have happened. I Mean, the Democrats have this slightly playing by the rules attitude. I've noticed this in conversations with a couple of them. Well, These are the 10 conditions we developed last week. We can't really add them now, Bill. I mean, that would sort of be like changing the, you know, changing the rules of the game halfway. It's like ridiculous. Of course you can add more conditions. We've just learned, as you say from your reporting, that there's a even worse cover up going on than we thought. And the same with the election interference, which has come to the fore in the last week. That's not one of the conditions that eyes wouldn't be used at the poll, you know, anywhere near any polls and so forth. So I think that, yeah, the Dems just need to go on a, a very strong offense here. They're winning on this issue. I very much agree with Andrew. I mean, we shouldn't, you're right to point that out and to stress that it's not as if the Denims are playing defense. They're only playing defense to the degree they're making themselves play defense. They need to stay on offense. And the numbers are pretty astonishing on ice, honestly. I mean, they, you know, for the issue that was the weakest one for the Democrats, immigration. Oh, my God, they can't talk about it. That was just a year ago, right? Trump's immigration, Trump's mass deportation policy and everything that has, it has brought with it, it the violence, the violations of civil rights and so forth. The bigotry is really unpopular.

[Tim Miller]

Four months ago, the Democrats felt like they couldn't talk about this. I mean, I mentioned Katie Britt, but also down here in Louisiana, like John Kennedy, when you have Senator John Kennedy, like, out there talking about how the ICE guys are getting a little, this is getting a little out of control and they gotta dial it back. I mean, I think that tells you all you need to know. Speaking of the kind of vibe shift for Democrats even here in Louisiana. Well, not here in Louisiana. YouTube folks will notice I'm actually in an undisclosed hotel room right now. Everything's fine, Everything's fine. But, yeah, I'm not home. But in my home of Louisiana, Chasity Martinez won kind of a landslide, basically two to one in a House special election. Now, this was when we, last week when we were talking, we were talking about the Texas Senate, state Senate race. And you were right to point out this is Texas. And it's one of those things where like, there were 100,000 votes, in contrast to some of these other smaller specials that Are, you know, more like school council elections. This was the latter. You know, I think it was like 8,000 votes to 5,000 or something like that. But I a pretty distinct win for Martinez in this district that went for Trump three times. The last time was Trump plus 13. It has shown some swingyishness for Louisiana. Like that same district went for John Bel Edwards, kind of conservative Democrat that was governor for a while. So, you know, it was, that's the type of district the Democrats would do need to win if they're going to do well in the South. But I can't say that I've spent a ton of time in Iberville and Assumption Parish. But, you know, there's not a Whole Foods there. I guess that's all I'm going to tell you. And it's between Baton Rouge and New Orleans, so there's, there's sprawl. You're not like way out in the bayou or anything. But this is noteworthy for a Democrat to win again by such a significant margin. You know, caveat, caveat about, about it being, you know, an off year and on a weekend and stuff.

[Bill Kristol]

I mean, the pattern's gotten pretty convincing. I would just say of these special elections, this one sounds like it's a little more of a. Do you think a non college kind of white working class district as opposed to maybe outside Houston, which is a little more upper middle class, I would say from last week.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

And I think it's mixed. I don't want to. Again, like you got a little bit of sprout.

[Bill Kristol]

No, but I only mentioned this because that is, I mean, Brian Brownstein, I had a podcast with yesterday on the Bulwark on Sunday. I mean, the degree to which it's so important for Democrats to make some dentists in the white working class vote, especially the white working class women, where there's been some unhappiness with Trump, both on economic grounds, some of the working class voters, but also women especially, I think on some of the ICE stuff and that kind of thing. And also where they're evangelicals has been the core of Trump's support. But in districts, Louisiana is a little exceptional that way. Right. Because it's so Catholic and stuff. So maybe there's a little more give in Louisiana among some of these voters. I mean, who knows, It's a small electorate, as you say, and I'm sure there were local issues and all that, but there's enough data now that it feels kind of wavish here and we'll see if Democrats can really take Advantage of it. But I think they have a real shot certainly at the House. They're going to take it, I think, unless things go crazy. And they have a real shot at the senator, I think.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Just a quick Google here. Only 27% holding a Bachelor's degree or higher in Iberville Parish. This is not the district. Right. Because there's other parts of the parish, I think rural, but still. Yeah, yeah. Like this is, this is a lot of a non college white voting electorate. To your point about the wave, I got a couple texts after this election from folks saying what are you going to do to get John Bel Edwards into this race? I think that point relates to, I believe it was on this, the Monday show last week I did a 15 minute rant about how frustrated I am with the Texas Senate race. I think that it's not so late like it is like some places with your past filing, but like it's still February. There have been late entrance into races in the past and I do think a continued full court press in these red states, you know, just because the more chances you got, the better your odds are that one of them ends up breaking or maybe a couple of them end up breaking, particularly in the Senate. So I don't know if you have any broader thoughts on that or in Texas in particular.

[Bill Kristol]

No, totally agree. Both in states that haven't hit the filing deadline yet. Good candidates, if you're watching, get in. Either you have someone who's a proven candidate like John Bell Edwards, or someone who would be an attractive candidate because he or she's a new face, but it's not too late. It's not too late for some of these House races either. Yeah, I very much agree with that.

[Tim Miller]

We're still looking for a candidate that feels credible here in Louisiana for that Senate race. But you've got right now Cassidy. This is the Cassidy seat. And he's up. It just is enough to just make you want to vomit. He's up on TV here locally talking about how the Trump endorsed candidate Letlo is a Nancy Pelosi liberal. And it's just like, okay, I guess that's where they're at. But I wouldn't tell anybody that you'd be a favorite if you'd get into a Senate race in Louisiana as a Democrat. But if there's going to be a time to do it, the first midterm of the Trump second term seems like the time. So anyway, no, you didn't have any deeper thoughts on you don't want to get in Trouble on the Internet about the Talarico Crockett feud.

[Bill Kristol]

I noticed you had your ritual five minutes ago. Your ritual. Of course I'd never run for the Senate. But come to think of it, aren't you a Louisiana Should I run for Louisiana resident right now? I think you're a natural. You know, there's a lot of people.

[Tim Miller]

This is a great point. I'm happy that you would bring this up because in a lot of ways some people have smarted at some of my critiques of Jasmine Crockett's campaign. In a lot of ways, I'm kind of Jasmine Crocus. And I don't think I should run for Senate Louisiana for the same reasons that I don't know that she's offering the strongest foot for the Democrats for a Texas race. Right. Like there are places, you know, had I never moved from Oakland, maybe you know, George Conway's trying it out in New York. That's fine. But I don't think that like a full time Trump shit poster as like the ideal person for Louisiana. I appreciate the thought, but we'll keep the recruitment train going. You know that moment when you're running out the door and you need a shirt that looks polished without messing with an iron? You guys know that I need that because you watch me in my wrinkly closed all the time. We got a solution to it. It's our new friends at Mizzen and Main. Mizzen and Main makes classic menswear with performance fabric so effortless to look sharp and feel great. Mizzenmain actually invented the performance fabric dress shirt over 10 years ago. Since then they've perfected it with modern fabrics. Their shirts and pants looked refined yet they're stretchy, lightweight, moisture wicking, wrinkle resistant and completely machine washable. No ironing or dry cleaning. And here's something really special. Mizzenham, Maine is a veteran led organization committed to supporting those who serve. They offer year round military discount and proudly give it back to veterans organization. Right now Mizzen Main is offering our listeners 20% off your first purchase at mizzenandmain.com promo code thebullwork20 that's mizzen spelled M I Z Z E N and main M A I N dot com promo code thebullwerk20 for 20% off mizzenandmain.com Promo code thebullwerk20 and if you'd rather shop in person, you can find Mizzen and Main stores around the country. Sometimes the feedback I get is that we're doing too much nitpicking. So you also want to raise up good examples of things that Democrats are doing. And Jon Ossoff gave a speech last week that I thought was like really, really tremendous. Well, actually, before I get into the Ossoff speech, I'm gonna step this back because there's this broader discussion about the Harris 24 campaign. And you see this on the Internet where moderates are like, she lost because she was too liberal. And the progressive types are like, she lost because she campaigned too much with Liz Cheney and she was too moderate. And I think actually the fact that that debate is happening tells you a lot because kind of they're both right in a way. One of the weaknesses of the Harris campaign, which was, I think a lot not her fault, a lot situational, was that there was a group of kind of small but not nothing, a group of left leaning folks that thought that she was an establishment moderate shill. And there were some moderate voters that thought that she was like a progressive California liberal. And that's not ideal in politics when ideal. What you're going for the progressives to think you're a progressive and for the moderates to think you're moderate or on the right. Like the same thing for moderate versus conservative. Trump and Obama both kind of figured that out. Anyway, I think that when you look at this Ossoff speech, you can see where I'm going with this because I think that there's a different way to go about it where maybe you can have more success in appealing to both sides of the coalition. Let's listen.

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Now, you remember we were told that MAGA was for working class Americans. You remember that? But this is a government of, by and for the ultra rich. It is the wealthiest cabinet ever. This is the Epstein class ruling our country. They are the elites they pretend to, to hate. So prices are up, jobs are going away, Medicaid and school lunches are slashed, nursing homes are getting defunded. If you're Steve Bannon and your pitch, your pitch was Trump for the forgotten man and woman. How do you sell any of this? Trump was supposed to fight for the working class. Instead he's literally closing rural clinics and hospitals to cut taxes for George Soros and Elon Musk. He was supposed to end the globalist world police foreign policy. Instead we're doing war for oil and nation building again and threatening to conquer Greenland. He was supposed to drain the swamp. Instead this is the most corrupt administration of all time. And everybody knows it. Everybody knows it.

[Tim Miller]

So look, I think that A just the direct effort to try to speak to working class voters is very important. And I know this is good about Zoran and the Democrats. You have to try saying the word affordability. Affordability is not just like a magic amulet. All of a sudden people think you're the affordability candidate. If you say affordability a lot, we have to put some meat on the bone for people, show that you actually do care about. So, like, framing the whole thing as like, MAGA has betrayed working class voters is good. The government is. The Epstein classes ruling the country I think is very good. I think Ro Khanna might have beaten John Ossoff to the punch on that. But good ideas can be shared broadly. The Epstein class is good. Getting rid of rural hospitals for tax break for Soros and Musk, just throwing a little Soros dig in there, I like. You know, it's just like a little signal to people, right, that it's like, I'm. I don't want tax breaks for my billionaires either. And then he gets into the foreign policy stuff where he kind of tries to basically hit Trump from the left on foreign policy, which is not my foreign policy, but I think is smart politics. And where he says, whatever, that we're. Instead we're out there doing war for oil in Venezuela. And I feel like you could listen to that and see, okay, if you are in the Atlanta suburbs and you don't like the way that Trump's corruption and norms, like, you listen to that and you're like, yeah, I agree with this guy. If you're a working class person that like, thought Trump was gonna make things cheaper, you can imagine that person listening to that and saying, okay, yeah, I agree. I don't know if I'm on board for you yet, but you're making it. You're right, Trump isn't doing it. If you're a lefty Palestine person, you're like, oh, great, he's going after the whatever the blob. And I think it's authentic to him, I don't know. But to me, I just think it was a good model for like a kind of a combo of issues that doesn't really map exactly onto the never ending Bernie versus Hillary debate in a way to kind of talk about stuff that will have some appeal.

[Bill Kristol]

No, that's good. And I mean, it also fills what you and I have both been sort of calling for for a year, which is, you know, you can be a moderate on a lot of issues. I think Ossoff is. He's not on the Left wing of the Senate Democrats running in Georgia, for God's sake. But also be aggressive and a fighter and take on Trump, but then also show that. That Trump voters got betrayed by Trump. So it kind of gets some of the Trump voters over. The economic populism, I do think is very important. I mean, it's not quite where I am, probably as a pure matter of policy, but on the other hand, it's okay. And some of it's right. Incidentally, the moderates who still want to sound like Bill Clinton on economics are just wrong. I mean, I just think they're out of it now at this point. And you got to sound more like Franklin Roosevelt. FDR saved the American middle class and saved an America which produced a massive middle class in the 50s and 60s. He attacked the economic royalists and he attacked, you know, the Epstein class thing is very important, I think. And it also shows that Epstein is actually a big issue. Political class seems to keep wanting it to go away, but then it seems like the public's quite interested, you know. Yeah, I think it's impressive. It's impressive.

[Tim Miller]

And again, I'm not saying this to pick on Crockett, because honestly, some people, they want to hear tangible examples of what I'm trying to say and critiques, and Georgia's a blue state or a purplish state, excuse me. But particularly in red states, you have to have a coherent message for people that voted for Trump. You have to have a frame. You have to have a message. When those folks hear about you, there's got to be something about you that you've repeated over and over again that they've learned that would appeal to them. And maybe that is moderating on some cultural issue like border or cops or whatever. Or maybe it's this, maybe it's that I actually care about working class people. Trump doesn't. Trump's part of the Epstein class. And I'm going to give you, like, over and over again, I'm going to keep banging that point that, like, I'm going to fight for working Americans and give examples, both of the types of people you're fighting for. Zone is really good about that. And give examples of the types of shit Trump is doing that's helping, you know, the elites, whether, you know, the tax breaks for Soros and Musk, example. So anyway, I just think, like, that is a model that is workable. You know, the fact that John Ossoff and Raphael Warnock are winning in Georgia is not an accident. Okay? Like, neither of them are doing, like, going Full resist, you know, like, not that, you know, they're not like, waving the bloody shirts as much as I wish at times. But like Warnock showed up in Minneapolis, you know, like, they are demonstrating that they're going to fight while also recognizing that you're in Georgia and you got to win over some people that voted for Brian Kemp, at minimum, if not Donald Trump.

[Bill Kristol]

Well, I think having the concrete examples is important. The rural hospitals, you know, I mean, and B, tying it to Trump, that is, there's stuff in, I guess the bill that Trump heralded and that Republicans voted for and passed in Congress that is going to damage it is damaging rural hospitals. So you really tie it, therefore, not just around Trump, but around the Republican Congress and also incumbent. So it's a little different. He's not running against the incumbent. Since his challenger is going to be endorsed by Trump and will have phrased this bill, he can say, you want a Republican congressman, you're damaging rural hospitals. I mean, the causality, I think, is important. It's sort of part of your point about the coherence of the message. Patrick Schmidt, my young friend who's running Kansas, just filed, I guess, last week. I mean, he says what's powerful when he's begun to go talk to people is the soybeans are rotting in the silos or whatever, and it's due to Trump's tariff policy. It's not just, gee, it's a kind of bad year on the farm. So I think tying it to the particular, reasonably to reasonable degree of specificity to the particular policies of Trump and the particular votes of Republicans in Congress and either are going along with Trump and the tax bill or at least not challenging Trump on tariffs. I think that gives you the real oomph to say in Schwitz case, he's running against an incumbent. What's this guy doing? He's doing nothing to represent, to protect Kansas farmers against Trump, whom he loves and just votes mindlessly in favor of. So I think the Democratic message is kind of coming together, don't you think, a little bit among these different candidates. Yeah.

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[Ryan Seacrest]

Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway. Are you feeling those winter blues? Well, do not worry, they've got you covered with ways to boost your mood. Add a little sweetness to your day with big savings on all your favorite sweets, shop in store or online and save on items like Gummy Savers, Five Flavors, Reese's Peanut Butter Cup, Sour Patch watermelon, M&M's party size stand Up Bags and Ferrero Rocher Mixed Variety squares. Offer ends February 24th. Restrictions apply. Offers may vary. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.

[Tim Miller]

I've been told that soybeans don't rot in the silos. Now, I don't know that. I'm sorry. Yeah, I'm betraying my.

[Bill Kristol]

On the west side of New York. The west side of New York do a lot. Everything's different out in Kansas.

[Tim Miller]

You know, I like words that are evocative. You know, rotting soybeans is evocative. Okay. And so I like to say that. And I guess Bill has picked it up for me, but since it's spreading, I should say I've been told on good authority that they don't rot. You get what we're trying to say, though? I'm sure Patrick Schmidt can use a more appropriate word being he knows my soybeans.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah. Don't hold him responsible for my Upper west side of Manhattan ignorance about soybeans.

[Tim Miller]

The last line of Ossoff's of the bit that we played there was also interesting. He was supposed to drain the swamp, but it's the most corrupt administration of all time, and everybody knows it's. I think that is also important. And everybody knows it. His own people know it. They know it. They're in on it. Okay? They like it. Like, these guys are stealing money and they know that they're stealing money and they like it. And frankly, they're pardoning other people, other friends of theirs that are also Stealing money to that point, if everybody knows it. I did a video yesterday before the game about Andy McCarthy, your old friend from National Review, who I do want to just credit him straight up. He's doing a five part series on the Trump corruption and it's behind the paywall in National Review. So I thought it was important for me to bring it out from behind the paywall, give it to the people of YouTube, you know, because you want to get as many people to see that as possible. Again, I think this is telling, is that like, obviously National Review has limited influence. If National Review could sink Trump, they would have already sunk Trump with the Against Trump magazine that they did 10 years ago. But. But it's meaningful that people are feeling comfortable going out there to say that. And I think that those are ripples that can have impact when it comes to potentially accountability or at minimum, just political accountability for the Trump regime.

[Bill Kristol]

Totally. And you don't know which string. You've experienced this in politics. I know, Tim. Which string you pull is going to resonate the most or is going to have the most impact on why Ludnick and. And Epstein turning out to be like best buddies and business partners from several different enterprises. And I think over after he gave.

[Tim Miller]

A compelling sociopathic lie, like the type of lie that George Costanza lie that had all this detail. It's like I only went to his house the one time I saw that there was a massage table instead of a kitchen table. And it was so disgusting, I went with my wife. She told me never to talk to him again. He told a very long fake story about an imaginary one time that he met Epstein and was too grossed out to ever talk to him again. And yeah, now it turns out they're.

[Bill Kristol]

Business partners and he's one of the major sources of corruption, I would believe, don't you think, in the Trump cabinet. So it sort of all fits together, you know?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, Well, I mean, Wyckoff seems like is at the top of the more so. Yeah. But no, the Latin kids are also making bank right now, so they're their best year ever in 2025, the Latin kids, you know, the best returns ever. That was just. What a lucky break.

[Bill Kristol]

No, it's Trump's restored meritocracy. It's good. You know what I mean? And it's really. I think he said that in the tweet about attacking bad bunny super bowl entertainment, you know? Right. Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

All right, Bill, Crystal, thank you so much, sir. We'll be seeing you back here next Monday. Everybody else will be back tomorrow for another edition of the show. We'll see you all then. Peace.

[Bill Kristol]

I'm afraid of the world I'm afraid I can't help that I'm afraid I.

[Tim Miller]

Can'T yeah, I'm afraid of Americans I'm afraid of the world The Boar Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

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