The Bulwark Podcast: Bill Kristol — The Administration’s Stupid Ethnonationalism
Date: February 16, 2026
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Bill Kristol
Episode Overview
In this episode, Tim Miller and Bill Kristol dissect the latest political controversies surrounding the Trump administration and its allies, focusing especially on what Kristol calls “stupid ethnonationalism” emanating from Secretary of State Marco Rubio’s recent speeches in Europe. They critique the administration’s foreign and domestic policy directions—with particular attention to the rise of right-wing nationalism, America’s shifting alliances, and the state of liberal democracy. Notable moments include sharp rebuke of Rubio’s historical rhetoric, discussion of Democratic responses, and broader worries about institutional decay.
Main Theme and Purpose
The episode centers on the Trump administration’s embrace of ethnonationalist rhetoric, as exemplified by Secretary of State Marco Rubio’s recent remarks in Munich and Budapest. Miller and Kristol analyze the philosophical underpinnings and political consequences of this shift, highlighting its contrast with traditional American ideals and its impact on U.S. foreign policy, especially regarding Hungary and the transatlantic alliance. They also explore Democrats’ responses and ongoing debates about ICE, the Department of Homeland Security, and the administration's authoritarian tendencies.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Presidents’ Day, American Mediocrity, and Presidential Idolatry
- [03:09] Bill Kristol: Reflects on the shift from celebrating Washington and Lincoln to “Presidents’ Day,” arguing the move is acceptable if it reminds us “we’ve had a lot of bad presidents, a lot of mediocre ones, and we shouldn’t idolize them.”
- [04:05] Tim Miller: “Doesn’t really seem like something to take a day off of work for… just being reminded that our presidents are mediocre. They’re men. Men only so far.”
2. Media Spin on Trump’s Record and Public Mood
- [05:00] Tim Miller: Critiques Politico Playbook for shallow positive spin: tariffs “haven’t created unbearable levels of pain,” foreign adventures “haven’t backfired,” while the administration’s actual achievements are meager.
- [06:22] Bill Kristol: Notes Trump’s approval ratings have fallen despite economic stability, suggesting the public is dissatisfied “for maybe deeper reasons having to do with rights and liberties and dignity and democracy.”
- [07:23] Tim Miller: Senses “the mood of the average resister is better now… like it might be over for [Trump],” but cautions against complacency.
3. Rubio’s Munich Speech and Ethnonationalist Rhetoric
a. “Armies Fight for a People”
- [08:57] Marco Rubio (clip): “Armies do not fight for abstractions. Armies fight for a people. Armies fight for a nation. Armies fight for a way of life.”
- [09:30] Bill Kristol: Rebuts Rubio, pointing to the Civil War and World War II as fights over principles and abstractions like “all men are created equal,” not just for ethnic or tribal reasons.
- “We fought because of principle… It was based on an abstract view of human equality or human inequality. So it’s just silly.”
- [11:17] Tim Miller: “The motivation for war … have been about abstractions, not about … tribe … He’s doing it in service of creating a new idea of what America is … a dangerous view.”
b. Rubio’s “Common Heritage” and Western Civilization
- [15:22] Rubio (clip): Waxing about the glories of continental European culture, urging Americans to be “unapologetic in our heritage and proud of this common inheritance.”
- [15:57] Tim Miller: “I do feel like I have to point out that Marco is from fucking Cuba, not Europe… He is trying to sand down the edges of the various cultural differences and create … an Anglo Saxon supremacist view.”
- [16:45] “It is white nationalist agitprop. And he’s Cuban. I don’t really know any other way to describe what he’s doing.”
- [17:49] Bill Kristol: Rebukes Rubio’s betrayal of his parents’ immigrant legacy and the universal appeal of Western culture: “The whole point about Mozart and Michelangelo… is they have universal appeal… it's the globalism of these great works … that makes them so important."
- [20:02] Tim Miller: Notes musical and artistic hybridity—“the Rolling Stones in particular, like, stole their music from black American culture… This whole notion … that there is something special about this culture that needs to be preserved and we need to protect it … is a straight attack on all [liberal values].”
c. The Danger of Unapologetic Nationalism
- [22:02] Bill Kristol: “The unapologetic thing is appalling. What did he say? We have to be unapologetic in our heritage. No serious person thinks there’s nothing to apologize about in our heritage… Every serious European thinker, including the ones he mentioned, has understood that.”
- [23:24] Tim Miller: Connects this rhetoric to Orban and Trump: “A direct affront onto our traditional allies while he kind of pays lip service to this cultural connection.”
4. Rubio’s Support for Viktor Orban in Hungary
- [25:04] Bill Kristol: Decries Rubio’s open political support for Orban, contextualized as direct interference: “Rubio goes there and steps on those people … doing their best to restore Hungary to a free country.”
- [27:23] Bill Kristol: Criticizes Orban’s demagoguery against brussels and the EU; Rubio tacitly aligns with anti-liberal, anti-EU rhetoric.
- [28:04] Tim Miller: Emphasizes Orban's framing of “the east” (Russia) as less of a threat than the EU, directly contradicting democratic principles and U.S. security interests.
5. Democratic Responses to the Administration’s Foreign Policy
- [30:22] Bill Kristol: Praises Mark Kelly for directly connecting the breakdown of alliance trust and America’s declining global standing to Trump’s administration.
- “This order didn’t just blow itself up. … It’s been blown up by Trump. And Rubio’s there justifying it.”
- [31:57] Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (AOC) clip: Calls for “working class centered politics” as defense against authoritarianism; insists most Americans do not want to walk away from a rules-based world order.
- [32:05] Tim Miller: Observes: “AOC … just does both [economic justice and democratic norms] … the DSA candidates are basically more committed to maintaining the … alliances we have with Europe than the former neocons are.”
- [33:46] Bill Kristol: Reflects on social democrats’ role as anti-authoritarian allies during the Cold War, noting: “If AOC’s wing moves toward liberal internationalism, that’s good for them and good for the country.”
6. Nativism’s Electoral Power & Democratic Counter-Strategy
- [40:00] Tim Miller: Raises warning delivered by Bulwark colleague: “Rubio and Vance want this fight” between unapologetic Americanism and internationalist values.
- [40:58] Bill Kristol: Concedes the appeal of “never apologize” nativism, but notes Democrats can successfully counter with patriotism rooted in alliance, support for Ukraine, and a liberal international order.
7. ICE, DHS, and Institutional Dishonesty
- [46:53] Tim Miller: Cites recent case of ICE officers lying about an assault to justify shooting, reflecting broader “menace” and dishonesty of the agency.
- [48:18] Bill Kristol: “The lies are not like slight shading of the truth … They just made up a story … I am all out of patience with ICE and the Border Patrol in every respect.”
8. DHS Government Shutdown & Democratic Tactics
- [50:17] Tim Miller: DHS is partially shut down; debate on whether withholding funding is the right Democratic strategy.
- [51:32] Bill Kristol: Funding is “extremely important … lays the predicate for making the broader case against ICE and the Border Patrol… I’m uncomfortable to … give them a whole lot of money with pretty limited modifications in how they’re doing business and no change in their leadership.”
9. AI, the Military, and the Hegseth Doctrine
- [42:34] Tim Miller: Raises alarm over DoD and Pete Hegseth’s threats against ethically-minded AI company Anthropic, as well as attempts to bar military officers from attending “woke” law schools.
- [45:55] Bill Kristol: Finds proposed constraints “insulting … to these serious people,” worries about lost expertise and intellectual diversity in branches of government.
10. Odds and Ends (Alien Life & Institutional Decay)
- [53:18] Tim Miller: Asks Kristol about Obama’s musings on the possibility of alien life.
- [53:44] Bill Kristol: Admits skepticism, “maybe kind of like the idea that we’re the only actual human beings who have this ability to quite think and feel the way that we do.”
Notable Quotes & Timestamps
- Bill Kristol [09:30]: “We fought because of principle, because of an abstraction, because all men are created equal… So it’s just silly [to say] armies do not fight for abstractions.”
- Tim Miller [16:45]: “It is white nationalist agitprop. And he’s Cuban. I don’t really know any other way to describe what he’s doing.”
- Bill Kristol [22:02]: “No serious person thinks there’s nothing to apologize about in our heritage… The greatest American presidents understood there are things that we very much did wrong and things we have to apologize for.”
- Bill Kristol [27:15]: “Orban says we should fear the EU … more than Putin, who has launched this brutal war in Ukraine … Rubio shows up one or two days later and says, we’re with you. It’s terrible. And that’s our Secretary of State, and that’s the one … supposed to be quietly gonna save us from some of the worst aspects of Trumpism. He’s legitimating the worst aspects.”
- Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez [31:57]: “We have to have a working class centered politics if we are going to succeed and also if we are going to stave off the scourges of authoritarianism … Does not mean that the majority of Americans are ready to walk away from a rules-based order.”
- Tim Miller [32:05]: “DSA candidates are basically more committed to maintaining … the alliances… than the former neocons are.”
- Tim Miller [46:53]: “It is a pretty notable state of affairs. Like, we literally just cannot trust anything that the Department of Homeland Security says.”
- Bill Kristol [48:18]: “The lies are just so… They're not like slight shading of the truth… They just made up a story, right?”
- Bill Kristol [53:44]: “Maybe kind of like the idea that we’re the only actual human beings who have this ability to quite think and feel the way that we do.”
Important Timestamps for Key Segments
- Presidents’ Day commentary: 02:50 – 04:39
- Politico Playbook & Trump’s record: 05:00 – 07:23
- Rubio’s Munich speech (armies, abstractions): 08:57 – 11:58
- “Common heritage” Western civilization riff: 15:22 – 22:02
- Rubio/Orban/Hungary section: 23:24 – 28:04
- Democratic response (Mark Kelly/AOC): 30:22 – 37:28
- Ethnonationalism v. patriotism in U.S. politics: 40:00 – 42:34
- ICE misconduct & DHS shutdown strategy: 46:53 – 53:12
- AI, military, and woke law schools: 42:34 – 46:53
- Existential musing (aliens): 53:18 – 54:47
Concluding Notes
This episode of The Bulwark Podcast dives deeply into the intellectual and practical consequences of the Trump administration’s drift toward ethnonationalism—contrasting it sharply with the abstract, inclusive ideals of American democracy. Miller and Kristol balance historical critique, contemporary news analysis, and reflections on the current direction of both Republican and Democratic foreign policy stances. The discussion is animated, sometimes exasperated, and always rooted in a commitment to liberal democratic norms.
For listeners seeking:
- A breakdown of the administration’s nationalist rhetoric,
- Insight on foreign policy shifts and alliances,
- Democratic intra-party debates and responses,
- Real-world implications for DHS, ICE, and the military.
This episode offers rich, pointed, and timely analysis with plenty of “righteous venting”—as Kristol says ([22:02])—but always in the service of defending core democratic values.