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- [00:00]
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- [01:13]
Tim Miller
Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. It is Monday, so I'm here with editor at large Bill Kristol. Obviously, we're going to spend the whole.
- [01:22]
Bill Kristol
Show today talking about the murder of Alex Preddy by agents of the State ICE and CBP in Minnesota over the weekend. Usually I have a little topic outline for us, Bill. We can run through different issues. And today I just have Bill rants. Tim rants. Bill rants. So we're just going to take turns screaming into the ether in the hopes that that resonates with somebody.
- [01:45]
Andrew
Variety is overrated. You know, I think consistency of tone is very important in these shows, since you and I have been in the last 48 hours in a pretty angry, genuinely angry and upset mood, wouldn't you say? I don't know that I've been as upset in the Trump years. Really?
- [02:01]
Bill Kristol
Yeah. I don't know.
- [02:02]
Tim Miller
I was pretty upset back around kind.
- [02:04]
Bill Kristol
Of Lafayette Square town the first term, but I've been rage tweeting. I've been fighting with everyone on the Internet. I can't sleep. I was like rage posting instead of sleeping over the weekend. And I think I had my first cry of the Trump administration, too. I was kind of surprised that I didn't cry when he won. So I had my first cry. It's fucking terrible what they've done. And I do think it's important that the response is commensurate to the crime. And I think that is where my rage is emanating from. So I guess, obviously over the weekend, folks haven't done this. You can make sure to sign up for the bulwark takes feed because when stuff's happening over the weekends or at night, we are doing live coverage. So we talked about this a bunch, but that's the first show back since it happened. So just really quick going through the facts and then we can get to our rants. So this was Saturday morning, and Alex Preddy, as a VA nurse, 37 years old, was videotaping ICE agents in South Minneapolis. We have a bunch of different angles of video at this point to see this, including in the lead up, he.
- [03:08]
Tim Miller
Was in the street. Kind of looks like maybe directing traffic.
- [03:11]
Bill Kristol
Or something, or it was unclear exactly what he's doing, but he'd moved to the sidewalk. And some ICVP agents approach him and a woman, you can't really hear what the woman is saying, but they push the woman to the ground. He is still videotaping Preddy and gets in between the agent and the woman and tries to help her. And then he gets pushed to the ground, pepper sprayed, right in the face at point blank range. He's kneeling, and they drag him. And at this point, there are probably seven officers surrounding him, seven agents of the state surrounding him, masked, of course. And one of the agents you can see in the video disarms him. They see that he's carrying a concealed weapon, and they take his gun away from him. And then someone shoots him in the back of the head. And then another guy starts shooting him from the front, and 10 shots are fired. He's shot 10 times and killed several of the ICE agents, then flee the scene. Basically, you see one of them cover himself in the mask more. You see another ICE agent cheer it on, clapping, saying boo hoo to the people watching. And then the ICE agents try to prevent local police from assessing the scene and doing what police are supposed to do following a shooting. The local Minneapolis police refuse to leave the scene, but there's still a bunch of unanswered questions, including who killed him, where the video is from, his phone, et cetera. So that's like the basic rundown of what happened. We can take it anywhere. Bill, where do you want to start?
- [04:44]
Andrew
Just one question, as I've seen contradictory things on this. Do we know that they were ICE agents and not Border Patrol agents?
- [04:49]
Tim Miller
It was cbp.
- [04:50]
Bill Kristol
Yeah, it was cbp.
- [04:52]
Tim Miller
And some people said, and I guess.
- [04:53]
Bill Kristol
Maybe I Don't know what the right approach is.
- [04:54]
Tim Miller
It's a fine to me.
- [04:56]
Bill Kristol
It's kind of the same. They're both dhs, totally. You know, it's within the Department of Homeland Security.
- [05:01]
Andrew
And they've been a de facto merged for these operations.
- [05:03]
Bill Kristol
Correct.
- [05:04]
Andrew
I mean, they're doing the same thing.
- [05:05]
Bill Kristol
So ICE has become shorthand.
- [05:06]
Tim Miller
But in this case, just to be.
- [05:08]
Bill Kristol
Precise, it was ICE agents that killed Renee Goode. And in this case, it was Border Patrol agents that killed Predding. And I guess one other thing we should just say then is immediately after he's executed in the street, the administration immediately begins lying out of the gate.
- [05:24]
Tim Miller
Like, before we even have any videos.
- [05:26]
Bill Kristol
They'D already leaked to Fox that he had a weapon. Fox posted a picture of his gun as if that absolved them of their murder. It was like the first thing I saw after seeing the video. So very fast, they send that to Fox, and then very fast, CBP Bavino and others from the representing the administration talk about how Preddy was there to cause maximum damage, was there to massacre multiple people used in the administration used massacre was his plan. Before we'd seen O'Daniels just without even a second of waiting or pretense, like, they immediately start smearing the man that they had murdered.
- [06:03]
Andrew
And I think there was an email they sent very quickly to outside friends to who were going to repeat all this, that it was, as they put it, illegal alien. They had murder. Which of course was a total fiction. And then it turns out the undocumented immigrant they. They allegedly were even seeking on this particular operation, I can't remember anymore. Doesn't exist or he's already in jail. It's one of these. Typical.
- [06:25]
Tim Miller
Yeah. No, they had lied about him as well.
- [06:26]
Bill Kristol
I mean, they lied about everything.
- [06:27]
Andrew
So many.
- [06:28]
Bill Kristol
They had said that this operation was to go after someone that the Department of Corrections was keeping from them and passing over to them, and that he was a violent criminal. But then they said the person's name, and the Department of Corrections shout out to the Minnesota Department of Corrections, this is where we are. They've had to create a rapid response page to respond to all of the lies coming from the federal government about what the local bureau of Prisons is doing in Minnesota. But they put out a thing that said, the guy you're talking about was not in our custody. And we looked at his record, and his only criminal record is traffic violations, like 10 years ago.
- [07:00]
Andrew
You did excellent immediate podcast on Saturday. I did something with Sam Sunday morning and Adrian, actually Carraschio, which was I think quite good. The, they were both excellent. And someone said afterwards you guys focused a lot on the lying, but you know, killing is worse than lying. And I, I take that point. But the lying is important. Well, for one thing, it, it so much goes to their motives and their. What they're doing that is like, you can imagine things going terribly awry. It happens obviously in police forces and, and other circumstances and someone shoots someone under some mistake and apprehension or maybe there's one bad apple and he, he really does shoot someone and takes pleasure in it. That's terrible, obviously. But you could imagine the department as a whole, the organization as a whole reacting in a certain way. That would mean that you didn't have to say that organization is utterly and totally rotten from the top down. On the other hand, if the organization goes into 100%, not even cover up, cover up would be much too mild a term. Flat out lying. Slandering this man who was killed, who turns out to be very admirable and impressive. ICU nurse at a VA hospital. But even if we weren't, I mean, this just killed in cold blood. And the lying is just up and down the, you know, the scale, so to speak. It does say a lot. So obviously the killing is the most terrible thing. But the lying is so indicative and it's why it has to be just uprooted root and branch. This isn't the case of. It's a police department that's got some problems. It's got one subdivision that's got problems. It's got some bad apples. They, they don't really like disciplining their own people. So they kind of don't give them as tough a time as they should. We are so far beyond that with this rotten. I mean, it is something like something out of East Germany or earlier Germany.
- [08:43]
Tim Miller
Yeah. On the killings being worse, Minnesota police is from.
- [08:47]
Bill Kristol
David Beer has been doing good coverage of this. Minnesota police has not had to shoot anyone in a year.
- [08:52]
Tim Miller
So like the idea that this is the kind of thing that happens, you.
- [08:56]
Bill Kristol
Know, that law enforcement's a tough job and that, you know, sometimes you get into these situations and yet the police.
- [09:01]
Tim Miller
Have to defend themselves. Well, in Minneapolis, police haven't had to.
- [09:04]
Bill Kristol
To discharge their weapon in a year.
- [09:06]
Tim Miller
But in this year we're now January 26th, there's been a single homicide committed.
- [09:11]
Bill Kristol
By a resident of Minneapolis.
- [09:13]
Tim Miller
Two now two homicides by the masked agents of the state that have come.
- [09:17]
Bill Kristol
Come into the city.
- [09:18]
Tim Miller
So like none of any of those.
- [09:20]
Bill Kristol
Other defenses you have laid out that people have offered in the past of law enforcement where it's a gray area where they've acted, you know, maybe used to excessive force. They should have.
- [09:31]
Tim Miller
Like that's not the case here. Like, this is just a totally unnecessary.
- [09:36]
Bill Kristol
And pointless invasion of the city based on the pretense that there was some Somali fraud in the daycares and how that justifies just roaming through the cities, randomly menacing people and racially targeting people and killing people. To your point of it needing to be gotten rid of root and branch, I mean, the response to this from my vantage point needs to be get these fucking people out of Minneapolis immediately. Get them out of Minneapolis immediately. And I think that a lot of times there can be. Politicians are trying to decide what's the art of the possible, what can we.
- [10:21]
Tim Miller
Do here once they've killed two people.
- [10:24]
Bill Kristol
I don't really see any other potential solution besides getting them out. I should say this morning, before I get your response, Donald Trump has offered his solution this morning, which is that he sent in Tom Homan, who I guess is the moderating force in this administration, even though he said tons of noxious shit on Fox about who wants everybody to be deported even if they're not violent criminals. And he allegedly took a bag of $50,000 in cash. But he's more moderate than Miller, Noem and Lewandowski, who have bloodlust for the people of Minneapolis. But Trump has sent into the city. I guess that's going to be his effort to try to calm down the handful of people in Republican world that are a little bit queasy about this. But that is nowhere near acceptable as far as I'm concerned.
- [11:10]
Andrew
Yeah, totally agree. I think it's a good point. It is an effort to calm down the, as you say, the people in Republican world who are a few more of them, are a little more queasy than they have been. I can't say they're really standing up here.
- [11:20]
Bill Kristol
No.
- [11:21]
Andrew
But until Homan rejects and repudiates the lies, corrects the lies on the record, on camera of all of his colleagues, it's worthless. I mean, then he's just a nicer face for the same thing. They should get no credit for this kind of token. I don't know what you'd call it.
- [11:37]
Tim Miller
And here's the other thing that you say, that what they have to do.
- [11:40]
Bill Kristol
Is repudiate the lies and do so on the record and tell the truth about what happened. They were taping this in the morning. Maybe by the time this comes out this afternoon, we will know the answer to this question.
- [11:50]
Tim Miller
But as mentioned, we still don't know who the fuck killed him. We don't know who killed Alex Preddy. So we are living in a country.
- [11:58]
Bill Kristol
Right now where masked agents of the.
- [12:01]
Tim Miller
State roam the streets, shoot people, kill them, American citizens then flee, and then they're protected by the government. And according to the Bevino press conference, they've been reassigned to another state. So these guys are like somewhere else in the country doing who knows what. That is totally insane when you talk about East Germany in a free country. You don't get to anonymously assassinate citizens on the street, okay? There has to be accountability. This is not about doxxing or going out to the person. There has to be accountability. These people should be indicted and charged by the local officials in Minnesota and then they can defend themselves like anybody.
- [12:42]
Bill Kristol
Else could in a court of law, because nobody is above the law.
- [12:45]
Tim Miller
We're not even close to that because at the time of this taping, we don't even know who fucking killed him. We think that it's multiple people that.
- [12:55]
Bill Kristol
Fired their weapons at him.
- [12:56]
Tim Miller
We don't know. We don't know the names of the other people around. We don't know the name of the guy who was clapping after they killed him. We live in allegedly a democratic republic where these people, these agents, are representatives of us. They report to us, the people, not to Corey Lewandowski and his lover at dhs. Right. They do not have the ability, they should not have the ability to be.
- [13:22]
Bill Kristol
Anonymous in the carrying out of their duties.
- [13:26]
Andrew
They are representative, unfortunately or sadly, of what Border Patrol and ICE have become, or at least what the leadership of Border Patrol and ICE wants them to be. I think it's really. This is an obvious point, but maybe one that gets a little lost leadership. And I mean, up to the President of the United States, but certainly including Kristi Noem and Vivino and Hohman for that matter. This is what they've been cheering for for two months. This is what they've been encouraging for two months. This is what they've been praising for two months. Actually, yes, literally a murder, the murder of Renee Goode. But also the pepper spraying and the beat and the hitting and the tough guy, you know, all the toughness. They're reveling in it. They're encouraging it. So you're some guy down in the ranks there. This is what my bosses want. So that's what I kind of mean by the organization is so rotten, you don't even know how to begin to fix it. Maybe you can't get rid of the whole organization tomorrow, though. You should, but certainly get them out of the goddamn city, you know?
- [14:22]
Tim Miller
Yeah, it's literally secret police. Get them the fuck out of the city. That's the answer here. Look at the vice president, for example. His response to the murder of a US citizen was to do a long.
- [14:36]
Bill Kristol
Post lamenting how mean people are being to ice.
- [14:40]
Tim Miller
And he tells a story that's probably.
- [14:41]
Bill Kristol
Fabricated because he's admitted to fabricating stories in the past about how ICE agents were eating lunch somewhere and somebody called and told their friends that the ICE agents were eating lunch there. And then a bunch of people showed up there and shouted them down and yelled at them and blew their whistles in their face.
- [15:00]
Tim Miller
That was J.D. vance's response to the secret police killing somebody. The poor secret police people are blowing.
- [15:05]
Bill Kristol
The whistles too loudly and they're yelling at them when they should have a peaceful lunch.
- [15:08]
Tim Miller
That's the vice president, Same vice president who said that they should have immunity for their actions. So, yeah, it is not at all.
- [15:16]
Bill Kristol
Surprising that they feel like they can kill people in the streets without even being named, without any having any responsibility for their actions.
- [15:25]
Tim Miller
So maybe it's that I also would.
- [15:26]
Bill Kristol
Like to throw out onto the table that these guys also just have no idea what they're doing and maybe just shit their pants. Okay, that's what the grenade. Good situation looked like to me. The guy doesn't know what to do. He's got a weapon, he doesn't know what to do with it. She's pulling towards him for one second and he starts firing. Caught her. It kind of doesn't matter at some level whether they're cowards or bloodthirsty, but I think both options are important to throw on the table.
- [15:53]
Tim Miller
All right, everybody. I've been too busy rage posting to be cooking and so I'm grateful for.
- [15:59]
Bill Kristol
Our sponsor who's making that as easy as possible on me.
- [16:02]
Tim Miller
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- [17:01]
Bill Kristol
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- [17:06]
Tim Miller
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- [17:13]
Bill Kristol
Before we get to the Democrats, I want to talk just one more thing about, like, the actual killing and when what happened?
- [17:19]
Tim Miller
Because no matter the situation, this would be outrageous, right? Like, not really in my life. Like, and I guess maybe you could go back to, like, the kind of.
- [17:30]
Bill Kristol
The 90s stuff with, you know, Ruby Ridge or, you know, Waco or something, you know, and there's a ton of differences, but I was, like, trying to think of, like, the last time that, like, the federal government, like, literally killed Americans, right? And, you know, I guess you could count the drones of some American citizens who were with the terrorists over there.
- [17:48]
Tim Miller
But, like, in this case, like, an.
- [17:50]
Bill Kristol
American citizen not breaking any laws and the government killed him and then smeared him as protecting his murderer.
- [17:56]
Tim Miller
What he was actually doing was exercising the most basic, fundamental American rights, allegedly, right? Like, Alex Preddy was exercising his First Amendment right to assembly, to speech.
- [18:11]
Bill Kristol
He was videotaping agents she's allowed to do.
- [18:13]
Tim Miller
He's expressing a Second Amendment right to carry a weapon.
- [18:16]
Bill Kristol
He was doing so. Legally, he was permitted to do so.
- [18:19]
Tim Miller
And the government's literal stated rationale for.
- [18:24]
Bill Kristol
Killing him is that they did not like the way he was exercising those two rights. And we have some audio on the second one, but do you have anything on either that before we listen to these fucking morons? No.
- [18:36]
Andrew
It's really a key point, though. Yeah, they're killing him because he's being a conscientious citizen who actually is trying to, in this case, monitor what agencies of the federal government that have already committed murder and many, many other crimes. I would say assaults. He's trying to help out fellow Citizens by monitoring them. And in the more particular moment of the murder, he's trying to help a woman who's been thrown to the ground, who wasn't doing anything wrong. I guess he was filming. That was it.
- [19:04]
Tim Miller
You've seen these videos in other cases, right? We focus on the murders for good reason. But again, this is to the why they must be removed. I've seen a bunch of videos now.
- [19:12]
Bill Kristol
Of these guys pushing women to the ground.
- [19:16]
Tim Miller
Right. And so they feel like they have total carte blanche to just rough up American citizens who they perceive to be annoying them in any way. I want to go though to the.
- [19:30]
Bill Kristol
Second Amendment part of this because this.
- [19:32]
Tim Miller
Has just been unbelievably revealing as listeners.
- [19:35]
Bill Kristol
Of the show know. If there's anything I've lived out on more, it's guns. Over the past 20 years, I have felt like the arguments being made by the pro second amendment side were bad faith for a long time now. And one said argument is that the reason that we need to have this right to bear arms is if a tyrannical government cracks down on us. That's what's different in America, right? Like in America that we the people have the power to protect ourselves from a tyrannical government.
- [20:08]
Tim Miller
Well, now that exact scenario is playing out. A tyrannical and lawless government is cracking.
- [20:13]
Bill Kristol
Down on American citizens. One of them decided to arm themselves. This is what the Trump administration has been saying to rationalize that killing. Let's listen.
- [20:24]
Scott Besant
And there's no evidence that he brandished the gun whatsoever. The fact that he brought a disarm before he brought a gun. Have you ever gone to a protest, John? I mean, we do have a second Amendment in this country that. John. Johnathan, have you ever gone to a protest? I mean, have you gone to a protest? I mean, I've, I know actually as a reporter covering it. Okay, I've been to a protest. Guess what? I didn't bring a gun. I brought a billboard.
- [20:46]
Bill Kristol
What?
- [20:46]
Andrew
You cannot bring a firearm loaded with multiple magazines to any sort of protest that you want. It's that simple. You don't have that right to break the law.
- [20:56]
Tim Miller
That was soybean farmer Scott Besant talking about how he brought a billboard to the.
- [21:00]
Bill Kristol
I'd like to see a picture.
- [21:01]
Tim Miller
Scott Besant.
- [21:02]
Bill Kristol
Scott got billboard.
- [21:03]
Tim Miller
Besant at a protest with a billboard.
- [21:05]
Bill Kristol
Cuz color me skeptical that that's even true. But it's Besant saying that you don't bring a gun to a protest.
- [21:11]
Tim Miller
And then you have Cash Patel, the FBI director, saying that it was Illegal for Alex Preddy to be carrying his weapon. It's just not true. Like he was a legally permitted carrier of a firearm. And so I think what they have revealed is that this is just all who, whom.
- [21:29]
Bill Kristol
Right.
- [21:29]
Tim Miller
It's like we don't actually have a.
- [21:31]
Bill Kristol
Principled belief in the second amendment in any way like that. Our guys should be able to carry guns if they want and show up to the Capitol and show up to the Michigan Capitol and menace people. And we can carry guns, but if the bad guys are carrying guns, if the libs are carrying guns, we get to kill them. That's basically where they've landed.
- [21:47]
Andrew
Just to be clear, it's a concealed carry state. He had a permit apparently, and he had a concealed gun. He never brandished it, he didn't pull it. They seem to have found it when maybe on him holstered, if that's the right word, when they push him to the ground, took it out and threw it away. I mean that's what's so appalling obviously. And then they just merged all together to, well, like what do you expect? Someone comes to protest and brandishing a gun or, you know, what do you expect these guys to do but panic and shoot him as if he. As if this was a standoff of someone waving a gun around. Utterly and 100% false. I agree. Scott Bessant, he is really the worst. You should get on his case more.
- [22:24]
Tim Miller
10 he is disgusting.
- [22:26]
Andrew
You haven't been giving him enough of a tough time. He is revolting.
- [22:29]
Tim Miller
He's fucking disgusting.
- [22:30]
Andrew
The only protest that he went to probably was at Yale. When Yale tries to do something decent like I don't know, let in more minorities or Jews or treat women equally or something. And it probably got him all upset because, you know, he was the attached to the old Yale. I mean, I don't know what the hell, but he's such a phony and such. He's so creepy in the way he thinks. It's a clever point he's making against.
- [22:51]
Bill Kristol
John Carl Blah thoughts on mic drops.
- [22:54]
Tim Miller
Like, oh, oh, he deserved to die, Scott. He deserved to die for carrying the weapon. Like that's what you are saying as the treasury secretary, as a representative government. It's ghoulish. And all these people, it just makes me so upset because for what, 20 years now, since Columbine, they have made this argument over and over again that.
- [23:14]
Bill Kristol
The mass murder of children in the schools is just something that we have to live with because in a free country we need to be able to carry our weapons to protect ourselves from the government or that you need to have a good guy with a gun needs to be there in case a bad guy with a gun shows up so that he can protect people.
- [23:31]
Tim Miller
It's like this was a good guy with a gun trying to protect people from a tyrannical government. That's what Alex Freddie does. He should be the poster boy for them and instead they're smearing him and saying that he deserved it.
- [23:45]
Bill Kristol
I don't think going forward there is any reason, if there ever was in the past, to take any of their arguments about this seriously because they obviously don't care about the second Amendment. It's power only. That's my fucking rant about that.
- [23:56]
Andrew
No, absolutely right. Cause they don't care about any of the amendments or any of the civil rights. But since this is one of the ones that conservatives like to Republicans like to cite, it's particularly dishonest or hypocritical.
- [24:07]
Tim Miller
We should throw the Fourth on there.
- [24:09]
Bill Kristol
As well about unlawful search and seizure. I mean, they've basically said they can do that now too. They can go into people's houses without a warrant. So they're just totally shitting on the first, second and fourth amendments and murdering people for exercising and defending those amendments.
- [24:22]
Andrew
Some group called the Minnesota Gun Owners did put out a statement I think, condemning all this and saying this is not right. The federal government should not be saying that this guy can't have a gun in a legal way in Minnesota. I don't know where the national NRA has been and I don't know how big this Minnesota Gun Owners Group is.
- [24:37]
Tim Miller
There should be an investigation and there's been some lip service to it. But all those statements they come with, oh, they also have to do. But, oh, the liberals have been getting a little out of hand.
- [24:45]
Bill Kristol
Okay? They've, you know, they need to calm down as well. They need to stop escalating. And it's just like, no, no.
- [24:52]
Tim Miller
If you believe in rights for people, like those rights extend to people that.
- [24:56]
Bill Kristol
You hate and that you don't like, that's what it means to live in a liberal pluralistic society. They don't believe we should live in one. I guess that is the point here. Like, there is two gradients of people.
- [25:05]
Tim Miller
There are people that are fully on.
- [25:06]
Bill Kristol
Board with the authoritarian project who only think that the Constitution is applicable to their supporters and friends. And then there's like a second level of people that are a little bit queasy about that, but like not queasy enough to do Anything. They're just kind of hoping that, you know, maybe cooler heads might prevail. And that's, you know, your Dave McCormick's. Kevin Stitt, Oklahoma governor, there have been a handful of Republicans who have said things like, oh, we need an investigation. It was okay for him to be carrying a weapon.
- [25:38]
Tim Miller
But like none of them are attack.
- [25:40]
Bill Kristol
Or going after Trump. None of them are saying that the agents should be out of the streets. None of them are saying that they should be unmasked. Right. Like, you know, there's a handful of people that are a little bit, which is good, better than nothing, that have gotten a little queasy, but nothing even close to matching the affront to the rights of the people of Minneapolis.
- [26:00]
Andrew
Yeah, totally. The Wall Street Journal editorial last night was they seem to put it mostly in terms of turning Trump politically. They didn't seem to terribly, you know, to go on a great length about this man who was murdered or anything like that. But nonetheless, Trump should pause the operation in Minnesota, which I, you know, was good and is a little bit further than some other people have gone to. Not just let's have an investigation or we're were perturbed, you know, but which if I can just get to the.
- [26:25]
Tim Miller
Demo, which just really quick before the Democrats. Can I read a sentence from that.
- [26:28]
Bill Kristol
Wall Street Journal editorial?
- [26:29]
Tim Miller
Because again, it's like it had horrible.
- [26:31]
Andrew
Both scientism, no go.
- [26:32]
Tim Miller
You got a hand, I'm with you. It's fine. It's better than anything.
- [26:35]
Andrew
But I was sort of disgusting. Susan said, you know, that's even the Journal. They seem to be coming around and, and I mean she just see the headline and I sort of read it and I was like, yeah, I guess. But oh my God, I can't stand it. Go ahead.
- [26:47]
Bill Kristol
Here's the key sentence.
- [26:48]
Tim Miller
Videos and event aren't always definitive, but this is how it looks to us. Preddy attempted foolishly to assist a woman.
- [26:57]
Bill Kristol
Who had been pepper sprayed by agents.
- [27:00]
Tim Miller
Multiple agents then tackled him and he had a phone like, is that necessary? Was that necessary? The agents came up and pushed her to the ground. Then the agents pepper sprayed him in the face. So if anybody acted fucking foolishly, it was the people that escalated the situation to such a degree that A guy, a VA nurse, got shot 10 times and point blank. So I just, I want to be encouraged by the fact that the New York Post and Wall Street Journal and some of these other people are at.
- [27:31]
Bill Kristol
Least trying to get Trump to tamp it down. But my rage kind of overtakes that feeling.
- [27:40]
Andrew
Totally where you are. I mean, analytically, it might give a little bit of nudge to some Republicans, but even to nudge them from where? From, you know, from from A to A, minus, not to where they should be, which is about, you know, Z by this point. So, yeah, I'm not hugely encouraged. Encouraged by that. And they had some nonsense about how also, you know, everyone on both sides has been very irresponsible.
- [28:01]
Bill Kristol
Oh, why?
- [28:02]
Tim Miller
Why aren't Walls and Fry telling Minneapolis.
- [28:06]
Bill Kristol
Citizens to stop, you know, recording ICE and to stop interfering with their operations?
- [28:12]
Tim Miller
And it's like, what. Why is that their job?
- [28:14]
Andrew
The opposite. The opposite. Don't we need to. Isn't this the proof that we need to have some videos? We can't trust a word that the government says that the federal government says. And the Minnesota cops can't be. They're busy desperately trying to stop violence and do their job and stop ICE from committing even more violence. I suppose Minneapolis citizens have been really.
- [28:33]
Tim Miller
Admirable, I've got to say, amazingly admirable.
- [28:35]
Andrew
And so again. But the Journal can't say that, of course, because. So then at least they come out for a pause, whatever that. In the Minneapolis operation, which now puts them to the left, so far as I can tell, of even most Senate Democrats who I don't think are calling right now. I mean, if the Journal is saying that Trump should pause the operation, it would also logically follow that Congress could require Trump to pause the operation. If they think a pause is a good thing, what do they care if Trump does it? Or if Congress says you got no funding for troops, ICE or Border Patrol troops in Minneapolis? But that doesn't seem to be part of the core demands yet, that I can tell. Some people said it, of course, some Democrats, but the stories about Chuck Schumer. I know you were following this pretty closely, so I defer to you. I don't think the withdrawing the actual troops who have killed, as you say, you've created two thirds of the homicides in Minnesota so far in 2026, withdrawing those people, and we're doing nothing. They're contributing nothing to the city. They're causing chaos and murder and assaults and businesses, if you care about that. People can't go out, of course, to the restaurant. I mean, everything else, all they are is a terrible visitation on the city of Minneapolis, the state of Minnesota. And I don't know, I just really hope Democrats see the light and think about it seriously for a minute. I mean, what is the case for these people being in Minneapolis? There's just no case for it.
- [29:56]
Bill Kristol
None.
- [29:57]
Andrew
So get them out.
- [29:58]
Tim Miller
There was never a case for it. Well, there's never a case for it. Right from the beginning, it was. It was pretextual nonsense. Even if you took them at their word that they cared about this fraud.
- [30:07]
Andrew
Yeah, send it.
- [30:07]
Tim Miller
Auditors. Yes, fucking auditors. What are. Why are masked people, like, pushing women on the street? The other reason why this just gets my goat the most is that I do really still care. I just really want to live in a free country. Like, the exercise of our rights as citizens is like the whole point of the country. All right? And to have these fucking assholes saying that, oh, the Minnesota citizens shouldn't exercise.
- [30:32]
Bill Kristol
Those rights quite as vociferously.
- [30:35]
Tim Miller
They should shut up.
- [30:36]
Bill Kristol
They should calm down a little bit.
- [30:37]
Tim Miller
You know, we don't need these mouthy.
- [30:39]
Bill Kristol
Lesbians out on the street, you know, annoying our agents.
- [30:43]
Tim Miller
And it's like, no, that is not how things work. How quickly they have flipped the don't.
- [30:48]
Bill Kristol
Tread on me motto.
- [30:50]
Tim Miller
To comply or die is their new motto. Comply with us or die. And that is such bullshit. It is not the obligation, actually, of.
- [30:59]
Bill Kristol
Tim Walls and Jacob Fry to try to tell the citizens to not exercise their rights. The opposite, frankly. They should be encouraging them more. And I think Wallace and Frye have done great.
- [31:13]
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- [32:13]
Tim Miller
The DC.
- [32:13]
Bill Kristol
Guys to your point, let's go back to Schumer. Here's what his plan is.
- [32:18]
Tim Miller
Restrain, reform and restrict ICE is the new thing. Fine, whatever. I don't care. But do we need that? Get the ad wizards in here for this sort of stuff.
- [32:27]
Bill Kristol
I just speak plainly.
- [32:28]
Tim Miller
Then here is the plan. One, Schumer says he has the votes.
- [32:32]
Bill Kristol
To block the DHS funding bill. I hope so. Good. They need 60 votes to get it through. There are only 53 Republicans. Who knows? Fetterman probably votes for it. It's 54. And then you need six other ones. Schumer says that there aren't enough Democrats to provide the votes to the DHS funding bill. It's a good enough first step.
- [32:52]
Tim Miller
They're going to ask for real investigations into the murders.
- [32:57]
Bill Kristol
Okay.
- [32:59]
Tim Miller
Oh, wow. We're doing murder investigations now. Awesome. Maybe we can know who fucking killed him. Including an end to impeding the state.
- [33:05]
Bill Kristol
And local investigations, an end to masks and arrest quotas.
- [33:09]
Tim Miller
Three, they'll try to advance the other.
- [33:11]
Bill Kristol
Five spending bills, which are relatively bipartisan without dhs. All of this would require Senate Republicans to agree into the House to come back before Friday. Both seem unlikely. So we'll probably end up in a shutdown over it. We should end up in a shutdown over it.
- [33:24]
Tim Miller
These are all fine steps. The response needs to be commensurate with the crime and these guys. The Democrats should be in Minnesota marching with people, and they should have a stated beginning negotiating position of we'll just keep the government shut down until you get these fucking goons out of the city. That should be their stance. See what Republicans do. Maybe they end the filibuster over it. I don't know. Maybe then they come to some deal.
- [33:54]
Bill Kristol
Where we get some more of a compromise solution. That's fine.
- [33:58]
Tim Miller
But I don't know if we have to listen to Trump be congratulated for.
- [34:01]
Bill Kristol
His maximalist position of I'm gonna seize Greenland.
- [34:05]
Tim Miller
How about the Democrats start with the.
- [34:06]
Bill Kristol
Correct and maximalist position and then see what Republicans do?
- [34:10]
Andrew
And it's not that maximalist position because there are actually many more maximalist things they could demand, which maybe they shouldn't say. Maybe it should get them off the streets of every city. I mean, what the hell are they doing? And if there's this paperwork they have to do back in the office, if they have to go to a prison. This is really what ICE normally used to do. Pick someone up whose term has ended and who's an undocumented immigrant and then bring them to the airport to deport him according to legal proceedings. That's okay. Maybe they can do that. They don't have to literally get rid of the whole agency. That's fine with me, too. Frankly, we've already compromised a little bit by making our demand to get off the streets of Minneapolis. But it is. It fits the. The offense, so it makes a certain amount of sense.
- [34:49]
Tim Miller
Yeah, sure.
- [34:50]
Bill Kristol
I just think that's a starting point.
- [34:52]
Tim Miller
I don't see any reason to do.
- [34:53]
Bill Kristol
Anything with the administration or to give them any power that they could take until at least that's the starting point.
- [35:01]
Tim Miller
I have the Ro Khanna list of things. Do you want me to go through that?
- [35:03]
Andrew
Let me just say one thing before getting to Richard Rowe. It was good. I thought, they need to make clear that the Republicans, if they do not go along, if they're not getting them off the streets of Minneapolis, they. They are complicit. The Republicans in the Congress, not just the administration. They need to hang this around their neck and they need to attack them. They never do that. But of course, they are colleagues and that would be inappropriate. And they're the Appropriations Committee together, so they'll attack Trump and Kristi Noem a little bit. You know, she's really bad. They won't say, you, my Republican colleagues sitting right next to me here, you are complicit. You're making this possible. If you deserted Trump, we could get to 60 votes and end this occupation of Minneapolis. It's only. It's rather small number, actually.
- [35:43]
Tim Miller
You funded the murder. You funded the murder. You gave. You knew these guys were not going to be.
- [35:48]
Andrew
And now you're insisting on ongoing funding to keep this whole occupation and assault going. So I think really making clear it's the Republicans in Congress who are also complicit is important. Okay, Andrew, that was my rant on that.
- [36:00]
Tim Miller
Correct? This was all predictable. We all said this was going to happen, that when they. When they put 50, whatever it was, you know, billions upon billions of dollars into ice, the department funded more than any other, with more money than the Israeli military. Like, when they gave ICE all this money, everybody knew that ICE was going to try to staff up really quick and bring in a bunch of people who did not know how to do.
- [36:25]
Bill Kristol
The job, that they were tasked. Like, we all saw this coming.
- [36:29]
Tim Miller
Everybody warned about it, and the Republicans.
- [36:32]
Bill Kristol
Did it anyway, and they funded. And two people are dead.
- [36:35]
Tim Miller
The Republicans funded the murders. They knew that this was a risk.
- [36:38]
Bill Kristol
They put no constraints.
- [36:40]
Tim Miller
Congress can do things. They can put constraints and rules on the funding packages, on the budget packages, to make sure that the people that we're sending into the streets of American cities are respecting everybody's rights, Republicans, Democrats or otherwise.
- [36:54]
Bill Kristol
And they didn't do it. So you're exactly right. They funded the murders. Here's Ro Khanna's list of things. Vote no on DHS Funding bill repeal the $75 billion in funding for ICE. End qualified immunity for ICE agents. Investigate and prosecute every single ICE agent who broke the law. Impeach Noam and Bondi. End the Kavanaugh stops with racial profiling and end the militarization of ice. Codify use of force standards so courts can enforce the law against rogue ICE agents. Tear down and replace ICE with an agency that has actual oversight. I don't see any issues with any of those. That's what I would do, too.
- [37:30]
Andrew
Those are good. It's good. And it's much more serious as a matter of actual policy. It's a much more serious response to a real problem than Schumer's sort of two or three things that vaguely sound tiny bit restrictive.
- [37:43]
Bill Kristol
I mean, I'll take it if they're going to block the DHS funding. I mean, seven appalling Democrats voted for the DHS funding bill in the House, including Friend of the show Marie Luzencamp Perez, who has lost Friend of the show status officially over that vote.
- [38:00]
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- [39:02]
Tim Miller
I've got.
- [39:02]
Bill Kristol
Some more people I want to yell at.
- [39:03]
Tim Miller
Does that sound good?
- [39:04]
Andrew
Excellent.
- [39:05]
Bill Kristol
It's not just the Republicans that funded these murders.
- [39:07]
Tim Miller
There's a bunch of donors and companies that are supporting Trump and enabling him and knew that this was going to.
- [39:13]
Bill Kristol
Be on the agenda.
- [39:14]
Tim Miller
I want to mention just for specific the 37 donors to Trump's ballroom. The inauguration donors were bad, okay, because we all knew this was going to come. The ballroom donors that happened after this had all started.
- [39:29]
Bill Kristol
So they knew exactly what they were doing and they decided it was more important to suck up to Trump and give him the Trump Memorial Ballroom in D.C. than actually, I don't know, maybe support efforts to protect the rights of their own employees. Sort of read through them.
- [39:45]
Tim Miller
Altria Group, Amazon, Apple, Booz Allen, Caterpillar.
- [39:49]
Bill Kristol
Coinbase, Comcast, Hard Rock, Google, hp, Lockheed.
- [39:54]
Tim Miller
Martin, Meta Micron Technology, Microsoft, Nextera, Palantir Ripple, Reynolds, American T Mobile, Tether, Union Pacific, the Adelsons, the Glazers. They own the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, Harold.
- [40:06]
Bill Kristol
Hamilton, some other individuals, Kelly Loeffler, the Winklevoss twins.
- [40:11]
Tim Miller
All of those people are totally complicit in this. I've not heard from any of them. Maybe I'm missing it. If people see something about a CEO of one of these companies or one of Trump's big donors speaking out, I will gladly share it. I went to Tim Cook's feed. You notice Apple was on there. Tim Cook went to a screening of the Melania movie on Saturday night. After the murder, Tim Cook hung out with Trump and Melania. Watched the movie, laughed, shared a rose.
- [40:42]
Bill Kristol
I went to his feed.
- [40:43]
Tim Miller
Here is his last post. Today we honor Dr. Martin Luther King.
- [40:47]
Bill Kristol
Jr. S legacy of service and his commitment to justice and his belief that every one of us has the power to make a difference.
- [40:55]
Tim Miller
I guess Tim Cook doesn't think he.
- [40:56]
Bill Kristol
Has the power to make the difference, even though he's the CEO of one of the wealthiest, most cash flush companies in world history. I don't know. Color me not really impressed with posts about someone's commitment to justice who died 60 years ago. When you can't speak out at all when your fellow Americans are being killed in the streets. It's not just that you're not speaking out, you're funding the people that are doing it and partying with them in dc.
- [41:24]
Andrew
I'm sure at the White House Saturday night though, that Tim Cook, you know, took his moment with the President to sort of ask him to really rethink some of those policies and remove Stephen Miller and kind of stop being a horrible nativist, racist bigot and defender of violence and killing of our fellow Americans. Don't you think he did that? You know, I mean, it would be a little awkward probably wouldn't the mood of the as the was being passed. But you know, I'm sure he courageously said took the moment his 60 seconds to say the right thing that you asked for people to send in if they saw any public statements. I'd like even like a reported account of any private sentiment being expressed ever, ever in the last year by any of these people to Trump not to do anything, except of course for terrorists, because that could hurt their business. That's a little different.
- [42:13]
Tim Miller
Yeah, they do mention tariffs.
- [42:15]
Bill Kristol
I just pulled up a report about the Melania screening. There were 70 guests in the East Room.
- [42:21]
Tim Miller
And imagine fucking showing up to the White House after that murder. It's just, it is disgusting. It is despicable. I was enraged all day and imagine being like, you know what? I'm put on my suit and tie.
- [42:32]
Bill Kristol
And go to the White House and sit here for this screening of an 104 minute documentary by Brett Ratner actually faced multiple sexual harassment allegations, but he's back in the good graces now. Other people who went there included Andy Jassy, Amazon, Eric Wan Zoom, and Lisa sue. Amd.
- [42:48]
Tim Miller
A military band played Melania's Waltz as guests entered glove waiters served commemorative popcorn boxes.
- [42:56]
Bill Kristol
Each guest received a free framed screening ticket. I would like to take a shit on one of those. This is just truly enraging, the idea that these guys did this and that they're funding it and supporting it and saying nothing. They need to be made to feel like the cost of this behavior is worse than the cost of maddening Trump and having the tariffs tick up 5%. Because I think that it's probably worth playing chicken with them because Trump keeps tacoing on the tariffs and, and he does actually care about the stock market going down. He doesn't care about people dying. And so I think that people should be encouraging the CEOs of any of those companies in any way you see fit.
- [43:36]
Andrew
You're absolutely right. Sickening.
- [43:39]
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- [44:40]
Tim Miller
That, like, somewhere in the earth, somebody.
- [44:42]
Bill Kristol
Has a pulse and a soul. I do want to mention this person, Chris Madele. He was running for governor of Minnesota as a Republican. He's a lawyer. He was actually representing Jonathan Ross, which is an interesting choice. He took the case pro bono, but he couldn't take it anymore. After the weekend, he said, I can't look my daughters in the eye. And Sam running is a Republican. He dropped out of the race and said that what they're doing is they're targeting people based on their skin color.
- [45:12]
Tim Miller
So it's possible, it's possible for someone to do this. We get made fun of and said it's fantasy politics to say that. I don't know, should maybe Susan Collins switch parties or refuse to pass it through? She's the head of the appropriation committee. Should she resign? It's possible for somebody to resign out of principle. Chris Mattle did it.
- [45:32]
Bill Kristol
He's the best we got right now.
- [45:33]
Andrew
Some person in the Trump administration somewhere could resign. You know, there are a lot of political appointees, a lot of who could just say enough is enough and walk away.
- [45:42]
Bill Kristol
I emailed Susie Wiles this weekend. This is the level of my age rage.
- [45:46]
Andrew
You and she go back to Jeb World or.
- [45:48]
Bill Kristol
No, we go back to the Jon Huntsman campaign.
- [45:50]
Andrew
Huntsman campaign.
- [45:51]
Bill Kristol
She was my boss. She was my boss in the Jon Huntsman campaign. I emailed her when the administration started, but we haven't spoken since. And I emailed her telling her that, like, I'm just. I just am unbelievably appalled and that the Susie I knew would be better than this. I know that does no good, but that's, that's, that's what I have. That's where my mental state is right now.
- [46:11]
Andrew
That's good. That's good that you did that.
- [46:12]
Bill Kristol
If anybody has Scott Bessant's email, please send that to me. And I'll be happy to send him a few notes as well. I have a few thoughts for him.
- [46:18]
Tim Miller
I have one more thing, and then I just.
- [46:19]
Bill Kristol
I want to end about Alex Preddy because the murders gotten so much attention.
- [46:23]
Tim Miller
Rightly but the way that these guys.
- [46:26]
Bill Kristol
Are acting in the streets is just so far beyond what should be acceptable. I watched this video this morning of a guy who's in his house, who's at his house on the. On the stoop, I guess, and a bunch of ICE agents are harassing somebody in the street and he's shouting at them out into the street, right?
- [46:42]
Tim Miller
Like, stop, what are you doing?
- [46:43]
Bill Kristol
Stop, stop, stop.
- [46:45]
Tim Miller
And then agents come up to his house and he's going, I'm on my property.
- [46:48]
Bill Kristol
You can't come here.
- [46:49]
Tim Miller
This is my property.
- [46:49]
Bill Kristol
I can yell at you on my property.
- [46:52]
Tim Miller
And they don't. They run up, they tackle him, and they say, you're being arrested. This guy got arrested just for shouting from his own front porch. There was another video that I saw this morning of these women, and it was unclear exactly what they were detained for. They said they were helping schools kids at a bus drop off when there are ICE agents around. But they get put in the back of the ICE detention car and one of the agents has a seizure and one of the women that they detained helps him and helps resuscitate him, and then they handcuff her again and still take her to the Whiffle Building. These are not just some random isolated incidents. This is not about, oh, local authorities aren't complying by handing over violent criminals to administration like throughout the city. They are just menacing regular people and feel like they have total carte blanche to do it.
- [47:47]
Bill Kristol
And to me, I just think that just circles back to our whole conversation about what the required response is to this.
- [47:53]
Andrew
And again, the extent to which it goes to the top. When JD Vance said absolute immunity two or three weeks ago, and they people said, no, no, that's not quite legally right. It's qualified immunity, which is very incidentally too qualified. It's too hard to get people, federal officers charged or convicted of real crimes. But there is no absolute immunity. But he said it. And the truth is there is absolute immunity. The truth is this federal government is never, ever, ever going to charge any dhs, ICE or border patrol agent with anything unless they don't go after someone. And then they'll be charged with, I suppose, failure to do that. They'll be fired, I suppose. But that is the definition of lawlessness. That is the definition of dictatorship and authoritarianism, that the government forces are above the law. They could use the law to go after you with fake charges, of course, impeding law enforcement, some vague federal statute. They always talk about that one. And then it turns out impeding is blowing a whistle or taking a photo or just being there. Right? So they use the law when they want to. They can ignore the law when it suits them. That is not a free society.
- [48:59]
Bill Kristol
I want to talk about Alex Pareti. So his parents put out a statement that I'm going to read. We are heartbroken, but also very angry. Alex wanted to make a difference in this world. Unfortunately, he'll not be with us to see his impact. I do not throw around the hero term lightly. However, his last thought and act was to protect a woman. The sickening lies told about our son by the administration are reprehensible and disgusting. Please get the truth out about our son. He was a good man. There's another thing. I'll just read the post. He writes RIP Alex Preddy. He was my dad's ICU nurse. He read my dad's final salute at the VA after he passed away. I never wanted to share this video, but his speech is very on point. I want to play it today.
- [49:47]
Alex Preddy's Family Member
We remember that freedom is not free. We have to work at it, nurture it, protect it, and even sacrifice for it. May we never forget and always remember our brothers and sisters who have served so that we may enjoy the gift of freedom. So in this moment, we remember and give thanks for their dedication and selfless service to our nation in the cause of our freedom. In this solemn hour, we render our honor and our gratitude.
- [50:14]
Tim Miller
He had his freedom snuffed out by.
- [50:16]
Bill Kristol
The state, not in a foreign war or anywhere, but in the streets. I don't know. I don't know, Bill.
- [50:23]
Andrew
Yeah, I don't know either. I mean, I quoted it this morning. We owe it to him, I think, to really be serious about stopping this and stopping the whole thing from the top down. I really feel that the moral. So we talk a lot of politics on this show and all the time and at the Bulwark and everyone else does, too. And that's of course important. And fine, you got to have political ways to stop it, but the moral imperative to stop what's happening, I've never felt it more strongly. I think that today.
- [50:51]
Bill Kristol
Okay, we'll leave it there.
- [50:53]
Tim Miller
Thank you, Bill. We'll be back tomorrow with another edition of the podcast.
- [50:58]
Bill Kristol
Obviously, thoughts are with Alex Brady and his family. And by tomorrow's show, I'll come back with some stuff that everybody can do from an action oriented standpoint. I should have done that today, but I'll have that for y' all tomorrow. All right, we'll see y' all then. Peace. Sometimes my burden is moving that I can bear. It's not done yet. Let's get there.
- [51:27]
Tim Miller
The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.