The Bulwark Podcast: Bill Kristol – This Is So Third World Release Date: August 4, 2025

In this compelling episode of The Bulwark Podcast, host Tim Miller engages in an in-depth conversation with Bill Kristol, the editor-at-large of The Bulwark. The discussion navigates through a gamut of pressing political and economic issues, dissecting the current state of American democracy, governmental integrity, and the looming threats posed by authoritarian maneuvers.

1. Trump’s Dismissal of the Labor Statistics Commissioner

[00:23] Tim Miller opens the discussion by addressing the recent controversial move by former President Donald Trump, who ordered the firing of the Commissioner of Labor Statistics shortly after a report indicated a significant economic slowdown over the past three months. This action sparked concerns about authoritarian tendencies and the manipulation of economic data.

[01:58] Bill Kristol responds, emphasizing the severity of the situation: “Spin is not okay. Now we just have to have, I guess, literally pure, I mean, what. Just pure propaganda.” He highlights the unprecedented nature of this dismissal, noting that in the past, political spin was expected but tolerated.

[03:45] Kristol further underscores the improbability of such an act by a sitting president: “The idea that you could snap your fingers and rig it is literally, it's as ludicrous as saying you could rig the 2020 election.”

2. Undermining Trust in Government Institutions

The conversation delves into the broader implications of undermining key governmental institutions. [04:52] Tim Miller articulates his concerns: “If you put out information that is true but inconvenient for Donald Trump, then you could lose your job.” This points to a systemic erosion of trust in public servants and the integrity of governmental data.

[07:33] Kristol echoes these fears, describing the current economic climate as “third world” due to the destabilization and delegitimization of economic institutions. He warns of the potential long-term consequences on the U.S. economy’s standing as a reliable reserve currency.

3. Texas Redistricting Crisis

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on the tumultuous redistricting efforts in Texas. [18:22] Tim Miller and Kristol examine Governor Greg Abbott's aggressive tactics to manipulate the redistricting process. Kristol explains, “Abbott now thinks he can fire elected Democratic members of his own legislative body,” highlighting the drastic measures taken to secure a Republican majority.

[21:34] Bill Kristol elaborates on Abbott's statement threatening to remove absentee Democratic legislators, stating, “It’s extremely amazing and alarming.” This maneuver is likened to authoritarian tactics, raising alarms about the future of fair representation and the integrity of the electoral system.

4. Corruption and Institutional Decay

The discussion shifts to broader themes of corruption within the government. [28:41] Bill Kristol addresses the controversial transfer of Ghislaine Maxwell to a minimum-security prison in Texas, criticizing the administration’s handling and questioning the motives behind such decisions. “It's not like there's going to be a career staff down there that can stop stuff from happening,” he asserts, pointing to a hollowed-out Department of Justice (DOJ).

[33:30] Kristol further critiques the DOJ, stating, “Justice is probably the key part of the federal government through which that would run,” in reference to election interference concerns. He emphasizes the critical role of the DOJ in maintaining the rule of law and the dangers posed by its current state of compromise.

5. The Escalating Divide and Historical Parallels

[25:08] Tim Miller draws historical parallels to the 1850s, suggesting that the current political climate resembles the tensions leading up to the Civil War. [25:53] Kristol concurs, noting, “This is really dangerous,” and comparing the situation to a nation on the brink of splitting apart.

The hosts discuss the cognitive dissonance experienced by ordinary Americans who may not perceive the deep structural threats to democracy in their daily lives, likening it to the complacency of southern farmers in the 1850s.

6. Bipartisanship and Legislative Strategies

Transitioning to legislative matters, [47:45] Tim Miller addresses the contentious confirmation of Jeanine Pirro as the U.S. Attorney for Washington, D.C. Despite her controversial background and the reservations expressed by her former colleagues, Pirro was confirmed by a narrow 50-45 vote, reflecting deep partisan divides.

[50:34] Bill Kristol criticizes the Democratic leadership's approach to bipartisanship, particularly Cory Booker's stance on not cutting deals with Republican opponents. He argues that such inflexibility hampers effective governance and compromises essential legislative functions.

7. Corruption Allegations Against Trump

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to discussing the extensive corruption allegations against former President Trump. [44:30] Bill Kristol emphasizes the need for Democrats to focus on highlighting Trump’s corruption to redefine him from a mere “huckster” to a deeply corrupt leader. He states, “The corruption is not. It’s one thing for a businessman to be a bit of a huckster, but now he is president.”

Kristol outlines various facets of Trump’s alleged corruption, including crypto contributions, SEC investigations, and the mishandling of the Epstein case, arguing that these issues are pivotal in swaying public opinion and undermining Trump’s support base.

8. The Future of Democratic Strategy

In concluding the episode, [51:37] Tim Miller reflects on the challenges facing the Democratic Party in maintaining integrity and combating corruption. He expresses concern over the feasibility of making bipartisan deals in the current polarized environment and underscores the necessity for Democrats to hold their counterparts accountable.

[52:18] Bill Kristol summarizes the episode’s core message: the urgent need to restore trust in government institutions and the rule of law amidst escalating political and economic turmoil. He calls for sustained pressure on corrupt practices and a recommitment to democratic principles to prevent further decay of American democracy.

Notable Quotes

• Bill Kristol [01:58]: “Spin is not okay. Now we just have to have, I guess, literally pure, I mean, what. Just pure propaganda.”

• Bill Kristol [07:33]: “This, you know, this is third world. It’s literally third world.”

• Bill Kristol [21:34]: “It’s extremely amazing and alarming.”

• Bill Kristol [28:53]: “The right seems to this gradually succumbing to Trump and, and losing whatever authentic.”

• Bill Kristol [33:30]: “Justice is probably the key part of the federal government through which that would run.”

Conclusion

This episode of The Bulwark Podcast serves as a critical analysis of the current political landscape, highlighting the threats to democratic institutions posed by authoritarian actions and systemic corruption. Through the insightful dialogue between Tim Miller and Bill Kristol, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of the challenges facing American democracy and the imperative for vigilant defense of its foundational principles.