Bill Kristol: Trump Hates America

Summary

The Bulwark Podcast: Bill Kristol – "Trump Hates America"

Date: October 20, 2025
Guests: Bill Kristol
Host: Tim Miller

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Episode Overview

This episode of The Bulwark Podcast features Tim Miller in conversation with Bill Kristol, focusing on the aftermath and significance of the nationwide "No Kings" protests, the latest political rhetoric from Trump and his allies, and disturbing trends in U.S. domestic and foreign policy under the Trump administration. The conversation weaves sharp analysis, personal experiences, and pointed critique, zeroing in on political messaging, public protests, moral reckonings among former Republican operatives, and the shifting dynamics of patriotism in America today.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. "No Kings" Protests: Scale, Spirit, and Backlash

Timestamps: 01:51–13:36

• Massive Turnout & Spirit
  • Bill attended a protest in McLean, VA, noting a huge turnout and an atmosphere that combined “joyfulness and sobriety.”
    • "I was much more moved and kind of inspired by it than I expected to be, honestly." (Bill Kristol, 03:56)
  • 7 million participated nationwide — potentially the largest protest in U.S. history.
• Cultural Atmosphere
  • Described as a “picnic” or “neighborhood get-together” with no speeches at smaller events, just people mingling, waving signs, and multiple generations present.
• Countering Right-Wing Smears
  • Tim and Bill address the right’s attempts (Mike Johnson, Donald Trump) to label protestors as "terrorists" or "hate America" radicals.
    • "They just say these things and it doesn't happen and it's a smear and a slander in this case on millions of Americans and I guess they just move on to the next smear and slander, right?" (Bill Kristol, 05:31)
  • Ironically, these smears seem to have increased turnout: “Signups doubled since the terrorist rhetoric started.”
• Strategic Value for Democrats
  • Tim pushes back on DC punditry criticism that “No Kings” is vague; he argues big-tent mobilization is effective and that Democratic base is energized by taking a stand for democracy and liberal patriotism.
  • Bill argues that the protests help liberals reclaim patriotic tradition.
    • "I think this really could be a marker where the liberals retake the American tradition and American history." (Bill Kristol, 09:41)

2. Youth Participation & Protest Fatigue

Timestamps: 09:59–11:50

• Older Demographics & Youth Apathy
  • Some disappointment about a more “older crowd,” though not exclusively.
  • Tim shares feedback from Gen Z: after March for Our Lives, BLM, Women’s March, and Gaza protests, many feel defeated by Trump’s reelection and have “gone on with their lives.”
    • "I don't know, we're going on with our lives for a little bit." (Tim Miller, 10:45)
  • Bill sees the delayed momentum as an understandable reaction to collective demoralization, but is optimistic about a new phase of engagement.

3. Trump’s Grotesque Rhetoric and Patriotism Reversal

Timestamps: 11:50–13:36

• AI Video Post and Media Failure
  • Trump posts an AI video of himself dropping feces on protesters; JD Vance amplifies it as a joke.
    • "At this point, the thing I guess that I want to mention is this is just where we are now in our society. I guess we just have to kind of, like, accept this. At some level. It is grotesque, though." (Tim Miller, 11:58)
  • Media coverage is critiqued for sanitizing or underplaying the real content and intent of Trump’s message.
• The Core Argument: Trump Hates America
  • Bill Kristol posits directly:
    "He hates Americans. I now think the liberals just need to say Trump hates America." (Bill Kristol, 13:17)
  • Tim expands: Trump prefers foreign strongmen and despises “America loving patriots protesting at the villages,” highlighting the bizarre inversion of traditional claims to patriotism.

4. U.S. Foreign Policy and Authoritarian Appeasement

Timestamps: 15:08–22:08

• Trump’s Policy Toward Ukraine
  • Reporting discussed: Trump’s hostile meeting with Zelensky — “yelling, cursing,” pressuring Ukraine to give territorial concessions to Putin.
  • Bill: Trump’s default toward dictators is consistent and, in Ukraine’s case, particularly grotesque.
    • "He pretty reliably, at the end of the day comes down with the dictators." (Bill Kristol, 16:52)
  • Miller and Kristol consider if Trump’s behavior is best explained by his admiration for authoritarians, financial self-interest, or possibly more nefarious ties (the “Trump-Russia” theory).
• Scandal Over MS-13 Extraditions and Performative Cruelty
  • Tim exposes Rubio’s trade of MS-13 informants for El Salvador’s prison usage, leaving the U.S. with nothing in return and undermining anti-gang policy.
    • "If you really are concerned about gang violence and cracking down on the gangs, you would think that those people would be upset that the government gave away these assets." (Tim Miller, 21:17)
  • Bill underscores the harmful consequences and performative nature of these policies.

5. Extrajudicial Killings in the Caribbean and Legal/Policy Chaos

Timestamps: 25:50–27:32

• U.S. Boat Attacks Controversy
  • Tim describes suspicious incidents where the U.S. attacked boats, claiming to target drug lords, yet evidence and due process are lacking.
  • Surviving suspects are simply repatriated to Venezuela, possibly to avoid legal complications or testimony.
    • "They don't think they can sustain, I gather, a criminal prosecution and there would be habeas corpus things. I mean, that would be a real trial. Right." (Bill Kristol, 26:04)
  • Bill highlights the dangerous blending of war and law enforcement without accountability.

6. Government Shutdown: Political Implications and Public Perceptions

Timestamps: 27:32–30:57

• Shutdown Fallout
  • Shutdown continues with limited public focus; Bill notes little discussion even among those most affected in DC suburbs.
  • Democrats perceived as holding a strong position, having raised the salience of healthcare and demonstrated backbone.
  • Miller attributes Democrats’ posture to a lack of any compelling reason to concede, and emphasizes that substantive suffering remains, as documented by Bulwark writer Jonathan Cohn.

7. Moral Reckonings of Republican Operatives: Miles Bruner Article

Timestamps: 30:57–35:42

• A New Defector Speaks Out
  • Discussion of an article by Miles Bruner, a young Republican operative who finally breaks ties with the party over moral concerns.
  • Both hosts comment on the significance of public resignations, the social pressures involved, and the disappointing trend of elite capitulation to Trump.
    • "It’s important for people to put themselves out there and say, no, this is like a moral sacrifice I cannot make anymore because otherwise people get cozy." (Tim Miller, 33:34)
  • Bill emphasizes how rare and valuable these acts of conscience are, particularly among the less wealthy and established.

8. Maine Democratic Primary Discourse: Graham Platner’s Old Reddit Posts

Timestamps: 35:42–38:15

• The Platner Dilemma
  • The hosts discuss controversy over offensive, decade-old Reddit posts from Maine candidate Graham Platner.
  • Both express ambivalence: recognizing the seriousness of past comments but acknowledging genuine contrition and the complicated calculus of candidate vetting.
  • Tim connects this to the broader issue of candidate age and “fresh blood” in the party.

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On media distortions:
  "Trump posts fake videos of himself flying a King Trump jet over protesters. It's like, that's not an accurate representation of what happened. Right. And so, you know, Trump is just so grotesque and crude and disgusting that he gets a pass for it in a lot of ways."
  — Tim Miller (12:22)

• On Trump's authoritarian sympathies:
  "He pretty reliably, at the end of the day comes down with the dictators. And in this case it's grotesque because this particular dictator is even worse than most and has more blood on his hands..."
  — Bill Kristol (16:52)

• On liberals reclaiming patriotism:
  "I think this really could be a marker where the liberals retake the American tradition and American history."
  — Bill Kristol (09:41)

• On moral responsibility in politics:
  "To me, I think the value of having [Miles Bruner] come out and write it is that... the value is that nobody's done it this year. Like we're on October 20th. We've been 10 months in to this administration. They've done unbelievably heinous things."
  — Tim Miller (33:34)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Marine Corps Artillery Protest Incident: 00:12–01:51
• "No Kings" Protest Report & Political Impact: 01:51–09:59
• Right-Wing Smears and Patriotic Reclaiming: 04:25–09:59
• Youth Protest Fatigue Discussion: 09:59–11:50
• Trump’s Grotesque Anti-Protester Video: 11:50–13:36
• Trump-Zelensky Meeting & Ukraine Policy: 15:08–18:16
• Trump’s Authoritarian Affinity – Causes & Theories: 18:16–22:08
• MS-13, El Salvador, and Policy Critique: 20:40–22:08
• Caribbean Boat Attacks/Human Rights: 25:50–27:32
• Shutdown and Political Ramifications: 27:32–30:57
• Republican Operatives and Personal Reckoning: 30:57–35:42
• Maine Primary and Graham Platner: 35:42–38:15

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Tone and Language

Maintaining The Bulwark’s signature blend of irreverence, tough-minded analysis, and principled concern for democracy, the conversation is direct, at times caustic, and shot through with both frustration and hope. The hosts use humor to take the edge off the nation’s craziness but extend genuine empathy to Americans feeling battered by politics in these times.

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Conclusion

This wide-ranging episode dissects both symbolic and substantive struggles in contemporary American politics — from street-level protests and media manipulation to elite moral calculus and existential questions about the nation’s identity. Bill Kristol and Tim Miller position the “No Kings” movement not just as a protest against Trump, but as an effort to reclaim American patriotism, challenging both their listeners and the broader political class to make conscious, ethical choices in dark times.

Transcript

[Bill Kristol]

Foreign.

[Tim Miller]

Welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. It is Monday, so we've got Bill Crystal. Bill, I am in California on an undisclosed. Well, I guess it's a disclosed but a secret mission. Some of my a project that'll come out in month or two and I'm just thrilled that I was far away from Camp Pendleton while I was out here because to celebrate The Marine Corps 250th anniversary, they were doing an artillery shell live fire demonstration. It wasn't really a great idea. Gavin Newsom said it wasn't a good idea. Gavin Newsom shut down the highway over the object that the Defense Department said that wasn't needed. Nothing to worry about. Interstate 5. He shut down about a 17 mile stretch. Gavin's instincts were right on that because the fragments of shell, the shrapnel fell on the highway, landed on the California Highway Patrol and a motorcycle that was part of J.D. vance's protective detail. And the, you know, here, here we are, we have shrapnel raining from the sky. Because I think Pete Hegseth and JD Vance wanted to put on a much Easemo show.

[Bill Kristol]

I got a text from a young friend who served at the Marine Corps as a mortar platoon commander who actually says, I mean he doesn't know the details of what happened obviously so but he his senses, I mean overhead artillery fire, that is not something you mess around with. And they were told not, you know, that's not like your fun thing to just play with. It can go awry. It can go a little short or a little long and really hurt people. So I'm glad no one was hurt. But yeah, Hexeth and what a. I mean it's all performative, right? I mean, God forbid they should actually follow safety protocols in terms of. Of unleashing artillery, you know, in a highly populated area of Southern California.

[Tim Miller]

It is a clown show. More on the military stuff in a minute. But obviously we should start with no Kings because of my aforementioned trip out previously scheduled. I was flying during the New Orleans no Kings protest. So I didn't get to go. My family was there in my absentia. They're representing. It seems like you were out and about McLean. Many of my colleagues were out and about. You wrote about it for morning shots. Give us a. Give us a dispatch.

[Bill Kristol]

It was great. I mean it was. I was at the earlier one in June and McLean and that I thought there were three or four times as many people at this one. Obviously elsewhere in the country there were more people and getting 7 million people. Just that fact. That's a huge number. Maybe the largest protest I guess or political demonstration in US history or very close to it. And so a, that just, it was a huge success. I mean you never, you try these things and what if they'd fallen short of the true number that would have been. You could imagine the media, Trump world reaction to that. I'd say the atmosphere was joyful and fun and upbeat, which was great in this political era that we're living through. A nice break, a nice change. But I was struck talking to people and you know, We've lived in McLean a long, long time and so many people we, you know, KN slightly Susan knew, you know, through non political circumstances. Also met a woman who I didn't recognize but she had hosted me 20 years ago. She was head of the local county Republican club and I had spoken to it and there we both were. And she's the one who had decided to get put it on social media. But I'm not a terrorist, I'm an ex Republican. So lots of people talking and what struck me was the sobriety of their sobriety and good sense about the, how alarming the situation was. They were upbeat because they were there and they were, you know, they were making fun of Trump and wearing costumes in some cases and had witty signs, but they weren't engaged in happy talk. It was, I was struck by this. It's rare to get a combination of sort of joyfulness and sobriety. And I thought that's what characterized the little thing at our not little thousand person demonstration there in Central park, as they call it of McLean. The other thing they did in most of the smaller demonstrations, this wasn't true obviously of New York and Boston and stuff, was there were no speeches, people just milled around. It was kind of a picnic neighborhood, kind of, you know, like get together type feeling. People had signs and this is a pretty big intersection of, you know, by our standards, on the suburbs of two major roads. So, you know, there were a lot of people going by. So people waved signs and a lot of honking in response. So very upbeat and noisy and a lot of kids, a lot of two or three generations of families really. I don't know, it was, I was much more moved and kind of inspired by it than I expected to be, honestly.

[Tim Miller]

You seem to have left out the Hamas terrorists, sympathizers, the enemy within. You know, we were promised by Mike Johnson, Donald Trump, everybody. This was a hate America rally. You didn't see any of that in McClain.

[Bill Kristol]

Unbelievable. I saw the local or one of the local organizers is, you know, wearing a vest and came over, we chatted. He said they had this turnout, the sign ups, not you didn't have to sign up to come but they wanted people to sign up so they could get a sense the signups were had doubled in the last week since the Michael Johnson et al rhetoric started about terrorists and hating America. I do think they helped people who were otherwise maybe, you know, sympathetic, kind of anti Trump but didn't feel they had to disrupt their Saturday not, you know, be late to their kids baseball game at the little league field or not watch someone on college football, you know, might not have come otherwise. I felt people felt they should show up for at least 20, 30 minutes just to show Michael Johnson. So I think it actually helped. And I mean many of the signs were sort of, you know, we, we Love America, et cetera. I mean it was very upbeat and patri. It may probably help make the protests honestly even more patriotic than they would be and would have been anyway. So will anyone hold them accountable? Of course. Why am I even asking this question? I was going to say will anyone hold them accountable for all the unbelievable bullshit about how violent it was going to be and terroristic and hate America And I mean they just say these things and it doesn't happen and it's a smear and a slander in this case on millions of Americans and I guess they just move on to the next smear and slander, right?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, no, they'll continue the smear in the slander. I think there is real political benefit. I don't know. I saw some political takes from like DC insider types that I think were wrong. They're talking about how the message of no Kings is not. It's so vague and it doesn't appeal to people who don't already know. And like with the Virginia and New Jersey off year elections it should have been focused on that or Medicaid or whatever. And I just, I think, I think that that is like a 1994 view of what of how politics works now. I think that the kind of big umbrella getting people out as a counter to the status quo to the establishment is useful for Democrats. And then I think the contrast between the Republican messaging on this as like these people hate America, they're terrorists. And the pictures and the videos is something that, that people notice should they be able to see it. Right. And I think it's incumbent upon obviously all of us to promote it and people to go out there and promote it. For it to get the appropriate attention from the media, which I think it's been. Next, I guess Mike Johnson is out this morning. Your friend Mike Johnson as a press conference has four poster boards behind him about the radicals that were at the Startlight. So they're doubling down on it today. To answer your question on what they're going to move the poster boards, two of them were just 8, 6, 4, 7. That's the same Jim Comey thing that they're trying to pretend like is an assassination call, which is just not. It's just like, it's just cancel. He's like, we're out of something. We're done with something in the kitchen. And then one was a, was a bad sign and one I didn't even understand why it was up there. It's so confusing. And so it's just like that's the best they could do. Seven million people are out there and they, they found four offensive posters. I don't think that that dog is going to hunt.

[Bill Kristol]

I agree. Then the political consultant thing, I mean, it's obviously most of it's, you know, motivated reasoning or not even reasoning, just motivated, you know, propaganda to try to say, oh, it's not working, but it's ridiculous, honestly. I mean, I'm here in Virginia. Abigail Spanberger, you know, is obviously on the ballot in two weeks. Early voting has begun. She's making the case about why she'll be better for Virginia. She's making the case about jobs and about health care and about, let's call them, kitchen table issues, as they like to say. This is a nice compliment. It would have been ridiculous. I mean, I totally. So it's the opposite of what they're saying. You want to have both things going at once. You want, you know, the Senate and House leaders, we're talking about Medicaid and about Obamacare and health insurance and so forth. But you do want to remind people what's at stake. And I think people were happy. I'd say I was. I take the opposite conclusion. These people out there were not. I said there were some activists, but I mean, I'm telling you in McLean, it's an awful lot of a lot of veterans, a lot of some retired people, but lots of younger people. I met a guy who was one year ahead of one of our daughters in public school in McLean and then I met people who were, you know, retired FBI and actually see a lot of CIA types, McLean and business types and the usual mix of upper middle class, you get in an upper middle class suburb There's a couple, two or three generations of families. I think they were sort of pleased to have a chance to get a little bit above the normal discussion of issues and really talk about what's happening to the country. They haven't gotten quite as much of that as they might like, I think, from the political leadership and the Patriot. I'd say the degree to which people felt they were being patriotic really struck me. Sarah and I discussed this a little on the podcast yesterday, and Sarah said, well, what do you think about those political types? And the Tea Party was more focused on, you know, spending, and it was sort of more of a issue, not. Not just a vague democracy thing. But of course, I flipped that the other way, too. One of the genius things with the Tea Party is it was called the Tea Party. I mean, it appealed to American tradition, to the American, you know, revolutionary tradition. This. And the right has done a pretty good job of hijacking that for a heck of a long time. You know, I think we were involved in political efforts that, you know, implicitly, at least, sort of made the Republicans and the conservatives, the party of American patriotism and the left, a little dubious. And this is. I think this is totally flipped. I don't totally flip. I think this really could be a marker where the liberals retake the American tradition and American history.

[Tim Miller]

The one, I guess, thing that some people are expressing some disappointment about with the protest was, again, it did feel like it was more of an older crowd. And as you're saying, you know, obviously there are younger people there. I was texting a bunch of people about this to ask what it looked like, where they were. We'll talk about this more on FYPOD with Cam, obviously, since that's his expertise, having started a March for Our Lives. One of the other reasons why I'm out here in California is I'm speaking to some college students. And so I've been having these conversations. I'm sure you have, too. The answer they give when I bring up this question, like, across the board, is, we did March for Our Lives. We did Black Lives Matter, we did the Women's March, they did the Gaza protests, and Trump is in again. And it's kind of like, I don't know, we're going on with our lives for a little bit. Obviously, I don't agree with that. And I. Or, you know, and I think that's. But I understand. I understand that perspective. And anyway, so I thought that was interesting. But it's not as if there were no, like, Gen Z people out There. There were, but I. I did hear some scuttlebutt around that.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, I mean, I. Look, I think they also have lives to live, and they're not. But I don't know. I. I think some people who were at the big city stuff talk to people. Both New York and D.C. thought there were a lot of young people, but I don't blame people for being dispirited after November 3rd. Was that. I can't remember blanking a fourth, fifth. It was something. Some terrible. Some horrible date in the first week in 2024. You know what? It's almost a year. And I actually feel like, in a way, this was. Well, I mean, they didn't type it for this reason. And there was the earlier no Kings. But I think it was good that you couldn't have done this on January 21st. I mean, unlike the Women's March, I mean, people were too demoralized. And now I feel like maybe this also could coincide with a little bit of a coming out of it and saying, okay, you know what it was. It's been a very difficult year. Demoralizing year in many ways. Demoralizing election. Demoralizing. First eight, nine months. Nine months, I guess, of the Trump presidency. But now it's time to fight back.

[Tim Miller]

Last thing on this, the President posted on his social media a AI video of him and a fighter jet dropping poop onto protesters. Particularly a young guy that I've had on the other show, Harry Sisson before. Nice guy. You know, JD Vance tweeted it, making a joke about it. I mean, at this point, the thing I guess that I want to mention is this is just where we are now in our society. I guess we just have to kind of, like, accept this. At some level. It is grotesque, though, like the notion that, like, the President thinks that, like, the people that are out there exercising their rights are enemies from within, that they're terrorists, and that they should have shit dropped on them. I wanted to mention it in particular because Judd Lagom posted, like, the articles that every news outlet, mainstream news outlet posted about this incident this morning. And they all are just like, here's the New York Times. Trump posts fake videos of himself flying a King Trump jet over protesters. It's like, that's not an accurate representation of what happened. Right. And so, you know, Trump is just so grotesque and crude and disgusting that he gets a pass for it in a lot of ways.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, it's almost so disgusting, you don't even want to talk about it. But, I mean, I will say that unlike the ICE raids which allegedly are going after the worst of the worst of those terrifying undocumented immigrants who've taken over America, and These are obviously 99% of the protesters here were American citizens, I assume. I actually imagine if one were undocumented, one would be cautious about coming to something like this, thinking that maybe ICE agents would show up. He hates Americans. I now think the liberals just need to say Trump hates America.

[Tim Miller]

Yes.

[Bill Kristol]

I mean, he and the Trumpists hate America and that in a way this nicely embodies their hatred of actual living Americans.

[Tim Miller]

I was talking to somebody about this over the weekend. Objectively speaking, Trump likes and has more of an affinity for the Sharia law san dictators in the Middle east that buy him planes than he does for the America loving patriots protesting at the villages. You know, the little lady and men with their USA signs and their golf carts protesting the villages. Trump hates them actually, and thinks that they should have shit dropped on them. But he loves people that have no affinity for American values as long as they give him gifts and are nice to him. And that's just what it comes down to.

[Bill Kristol]

Totally. Totally.

[Tim Miller]

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[Bill Kristol]

It is bleak. And every time, I don't blame people, I guess, who were trying to work on Trump and flatter Trump and hope that he is being peeved at Putin would make a fundamental difference. But he pretty reliably, at the end of the day comes down with the dictators. And in this case it's grotesque because this particular dictator is even worse than most and has more blood on his hands and obviously has invaded and brutally invaded Ukraine, which has been heroically fighting back. The fact that he has, no, I come back to this, the fact that he has no sense of just basic human sympathy for Ukraine, you might in a very hard headed, realpolitik way decide, you know, we have other equities. There's not limits. What we could do, you could even do a kind of isolationist or Neville Chamberlain. We can't really, you know, it's a, it's a Fight people we rarely know living far away from us and so forth. I can't really get involved. But that's not his attitude. He's rooting. He dislikes the example of Zelensky and the example of the what that the Ukrainian people are providing and so does so many of his top supporters, obviously. Vance I'd say very much this way. Hegseth and what so distressing is that it one would hope that some of the mid level supporters, while they want better, they just can't quite take on Trump. That's presumably true of some of these senators and members of Congress, but man, they have been, they've gone awfully silent on this. I mean the degree to which they've all just capitulated. It's really why are we even saying this since we've said this every week. But it remains astonishing.

[Tim Miller]

It does well, I mean, you know, you can keep turning up the temperature and astonishing from 11 to 12 to 13. Let's just play in conspiracy land for a second. It works well for a lot of my podcast competitors in different ways. David from posted in February 25th and he re upped it yesterday. If the test of a theory is its predictive power, then Trump Russia is the most robust theory in all contemporary political science. He didn't say conspiracy theory. I have kind of always fallen down on the side of Putin flatters Trump. Trump is more inclined to dictators than he is to free leaders. That there are incentives. You know, Trump obviously helped him in the 2016 election and that that explains his thinking more than anything else. But it's interesting your point about how it was rational for actors in the region to try to play to his personal weaknesses, right. To flatter him, to puff him up, to say, you know, to say Putin is letting you down, you wanted this. The Norwegians are going to give you this prize if you just, you know, and Putin is keeping you from getting the trophy that you want in that way. I think that's kind of why a lot of people were going along with this sort of change of tune theory. Right? Because it was in line with what we know about Trump in other ways that he's like personally weak and he's narcissistic and that he, that he's having a temper tantrum about Putin. Not that it was like a principle change. And so for him to do a call with Putin in the middle of the week and there's been no leaks from that, but he was yelling and cursing at Putin that I've heard and then to have a Meeting with Zelensky where again, he bullies and browbeats and cusses like he's frustrated the Putin has something on him side of this argument. As far as explanations, it seems to me to be just as logical as anything else. I don't know, am I crazy?

[Bill Kristol]

Not crazy. And we don't know. I mean, I'd say he prefers dictators to Democrats, has also got pretty good predictive power, especially ones who he thinks can do things for him, for his family, financially. And that gets you to the Qatar types and all that. And he prefers people who he thinks of as fellow authoritarians. I mean, just across the board, right? I mean, I mean, even small ones he likes. And you think, like, really, El Salvador, we have to go be nice to that guy. But then it turns out Rubio's handing over, you know, informants to him.

[Tim Miller]

See this? Right, let's talk about this. Right. I didn't mean to have it on the outline, but really quick, this is an important Washington Post story. You know, we discussed so much on this podcast about the Venezuelans that we sent to this foreign gulag. And then, you know, obviously in the months after that, Bukele and Maduro essentially cut a deal. And all the Venezuelans that we sent there claiming that they were gang members when many of them, most were not, go back to Venezuela. And what we learned with the Washington Post story, what we learned over the weekend is as part of the deal to get Bukele to take those prisoners from us, Rubio had released nine high ranking Ms. 13 gang members, some of which were informants who are giving us information about the gang and give them back to Bukele because Bukele has parochial deals that he's cutting with the gang leaders to try to stop crime in his country. Okay, that's, that's essentially the short of the story. So if you just look at this as a pure math thing, like as a pure art of the deal question, like, we gave up MS.13 informants to El Salvador for use of their jail, but we're not sending anybody to their jail anymore because we fucked it up so bad. And so we gave up the Ms. 13 informants for nothing. So again, severe issue. If you really are concerned about gang violence and cracking down on the gangs, you would think that those people would be upset that the government gave away these assets that were helping us fight the gangs in exchange for nothing. But I haven't seen a lot of those complaints from the, from the MAGA nationalist crowd.

[Bill Kristol]

Now, apparently the FBI knows if you start Double crossing people, maybe people who don't have perfect records in the past, but who have become your informants and are taking risks to do that. You're not going to get any more informants. So if you care about gangs, this is a terrible thing to have done, obviously. And as you say, for what this gets back to the original thing. The people we sent to El Salvador were already detained in the us. I mean, there was no need to send them there. That was purely performative cruelty. I mean, let's really send them to a gulag, not just to a Guantanamo type place or someplace we would hold them or send them back to other countries for that matter. So the whole thing is grotesque and damages our effort to actually deal with this quite dangerous gang. Ms. 13 A heck of a lot more dangerous, I think it appears, than the Venezuelan gang that they're obsessed about.

[Tim Miller]

All right guys, we are back with that game changing product that I used before a night out with drinks. It's called Pre alcohol from ZBiotics. ZBiotics Pre alcohol probiotic drink is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic was invented by PhD scientists to tackle rough mornings after drinking. Here's how it works. When you drink, alcohol gets converted into a toxic byproduct in the gut. It's a buildup of this byproduct, not dehydration. It's to blame for rough next days after drinking. Pre Alcohol produces an enzyme to break this byproduct down. Just remember to make Pre Alcohol your first drink of the night. Drink responsibly and you'll feel your best tomorrow. I tried to do a combo on Wednesday night of last week. You can go back and look at the Thursday podcast, see how I look, see what you feel about it, whether I achieved it. But that was a Z meonics and Sake combo. I don't know, something about the sake before the Magdalena Bay concert I went to. Maybe it was both. Maybe it was a combo. Certainly Z Bionics. The Pre Alcohol helped and I was feeling fresh. I was feeling fresh Thursday morning. You know, all things considered as a 43 year old man that went to a concert that ended at midnight and had to wake up for a podcast. So something to think about for you if you're interested in kind of exploring some unfiltered sakes. So it might be a new leaf for me after the zebiotics, of course. That's what's coming up for y'. All. Fall is here. That means it's time to enjoy the cooler weather and some drinks. Out with friends. Whether you're enjoying a pint at a fall festival or a spooky cocktail at a Halloween party, don't forget to drink a pre alcohol before drinking. You'll be able to celebrate and still wake up feeling great the next day. Go to zebiotics.com the Bulwark to learn more and get 15% off your first order when you use the Bulwark at checkout. Zebbucks is backed with a 100% money back guarantee, so if you're unsatisfied for any reason, they'll refund your money, no questions asked. Remember to head to zbotics.com the bulwark and use code the bulwark at checkout for 15% off. Speaking of which, two news items with regards to us eating the boats out of the Caribbean over the weekend. One was President Petro of Colombia has said that the US Killed an innocent fisherman in a boat attack. I don't know if that is true or not. I don't see any reason to trust our government's story here given what they did with sending people to El Salvador. So we have one story being provided by the president of Columbia, one by us, but he's saying that we killed a fisherman, not a drug dealer. Trump then said that he's going to slash aid, I guess to Colombia and raise tariffs. I guess he's going to raise tariffs on Colombia in response to this. Then in addition to that, one of these other boat bombings that we did, two people survived. And so again, if you just look at this from their point of view, if what they're telling us is true, that they're bombing these horrible gang leaders that are waging kind of a proxy war on our country and that they're so dangerous we can summarily execute them in the Caribbean, then you would think that if we caught two of them, we'd do what we do in other wars, which is like detain them in a military detention or maybe prosecute them for the crimes that they've allegedly committed. No, we repatriated them back to Venezuela because I think they probably don't want victims of these attacks testifying about what the truth is about what we're doing.

[Bill Kristol]

They don't think they can sustain, I gather, a criminal prosecution and there would be habeas corpus things. I mean, that would be a real trial. Right. And that they, God knows if they have any evidence of what any of these people has done. I'd say nothing of justifying just killing the other people on the boat about whom they also have no evidence. And B, if they treated them as pow, which I guess would be the other way to go. Prisoners of war, well then is this really a declared war? Let's go. Let's, let's litigate that and bring that issue to the fore. They don't want that either. Trump has the right to declare under this extremely murky terrorist designation kind of thing. It's sort of a weird combination of war and criminal action. But in either case, it allows us to kill people we don't have any evidence about and we have no legal authorization to kill. I mean, in either case, we wouldn't be entitled to kill them. Let me make that clear. Right, right. So, I mean, yes. So the easy thing is ship them. But I thought these were so dangerous. I mean, the rhetoric around this, again, is so removed from facts. There are murky questions, obviously, laws of war and people have seen. I don't think this is actually one of the murky cases, but you could try to construct it that way. Instead, Mike Johnson just says, what did he say? That, look, this is the president, he's well within his power, and we saved hundreds of thousands of lives by blowing up this one boat with fentanyl. Probably doesn't have fentanyl. It probably that cocaine actually. And hundreds of thousands of lies. I mean, what kind of level of exaggeration is that? You know, one little, one vote. I mean, yes, they, if those drugs got into the US they would, they would do damage. I don't mean to minimize that. But so again, the insanity of it all is so, you know.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, but I mean, are we assassinating drug dealers in the, in this country on the streets? Like cocaine dealers? Like, I mean, obviously not. Trump has suggested that he wants that. Does Mike Johnson want that? Right. You know what I mean? You can see where, where this kind of argument goes. All right, the government is still shut down. I have evidence of this because very long wait lines for TSA headed out to California. I don't know if you had that experience going to Ohio.

[Bill Kristol]

I had a very short line. I was very happy at National Reagan yesterday, coming out here to Ohio.

[Tim Miller]

Appreciate the people working at Reagan national not getting paid. We appreciate your service very much. Other places were starting to notice that it. But like, there's no article. So many people are talking about Thanksgiving. I thought about this with Hamby on Friday. I don't see any rationale for either side in this shutdown to do anything at this point, do you?

[Bill Kristol]

I mean, I honestly haven't followed as close as I Should have, following all these other issues. No, no, I don't think so. I don't think.

[Tim Miller]

Isn't that telling in itself?

[Bill Kristol]

Yes, it is. Right. And I don't know if that's because I'm just not moving in the areas where it's having, as I just said, got lucky maybe with the lines at Reagan yesterday. So where it's having an effect on me and so forth. But I was struck, I mean, so yesterday. McLean, we're inside the Beltway. Right. Lots of people who work for the government have friends, relatives, neighbors, work for the government or work for contractors who depend on the government and so forth. There was very little talk about the shutdown. I mean, that was not at the top of people's minds. No, Kings was at the top of people's minds. And Trump. And then the chit chatting was more the predictable. College football. McLean and Langley High schools, how are they doing in their football seasons? You know, et cetera, Little League baseball. I mean, there was not much. Yeah. The shutdown is weirdly not broken through in a big way. But the Democrats have done fine, don't you think, in the fight so far, or they feel they have.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, yeah, that's what I'm saying. That's. I don't think there's any rationale for them to change the posture right now. And I think that they are. They've raised the salience of the health care issue and they're demonstrating some backbone to a base that is looking for fighting. And like, until there's an offsetting political cost, I don't see them changing. You mentioned the government workers. We should say Jonathan Cohn. We hired some serious policy writers over here. You know, I'm doing some policy. Right, we're doing some policy. But it's the chat show, not me.

[Bill Kristol]

You are, Tim. I've gone beyond that. But I respect. Jonathan Cohen's doing great work.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, Very serious policy work over there at the Breakdown. It's his newsletter and he has a good newsletter on the people that are. That are suffering right now as regards to the shutdown. And so I don't want to minimize that. I just like at scale. I think that the Democrats feel like they're in a strong, strong position on this. I felt like we had to mention it before we got to anything. We had one other great article in the Bulwark Today that I would like to talk about. It's from a guy named Miles Bruner who I did not know working in Republican politics. I'd heard from him a couple Months ago. And I was happy that he decided to write this article. He'd been kind of like a behind the scenes campaign operative working in Republican campaigns, a little younger than me. And it just eventually became too much and he decided he couldn't do it anymore. And he wrote an article for us this morning titled My Last Day as an Accomplice of the Republican Party. I had some thoughts on it, but I was wondering what you made of Miles.

[Bill Kristol]

I don't know him at all, so I thought it was excellent. Very interesting. And obviously I'm very familiar with this genre of literature from you and others. The people with whom I'm familiar broke in 2015, 2016, some 2018, 19. Louis Cheney, 2020. So it's interesting. I thought that part was for me. Everyone should read the article, first of all. And it's really worthwhile and I hope it has a big impact on some of his peers. But what's interesting to me was the discussion of how he talked himself into staying on board, you know, through till now. So after January 6th and so forth, at this direct mail firm I think he was working at.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, yeah, I felt that way too. And the social pressure side of it was interesting to me. It was interesting when I first talked to him. Yeah, because there are different options you can make if you're in this guy's boat. And there are some people that are not going to be very receptive to somebody jumping off the Trump train in 2025. There were some people I've seen in the comments of the article who are bulwark people. I mean, I think that we should be welcoming and encouraging conference. But I understand that you know that that's going to happen. People are going to lash out at you. Your old Republican friends are going to be annoyed with you and be mad at you. Like there's a social cost to it. There's plenty of options where you could just say quietly, like, and I have some friends who've done this, like, this is it for me. I'm going to go do PR marketing for some company or whatever is non political and not talk about this anymore and go on with my life. To me, I think the value of having him come out and write it is that even as a pretty anonymous person within this huge apparatus of staffers that work on Republican campaigns, the value is that nobody's done it this year. Like we're on October 20th. We've been 10 months in to this administration. They've done unbelievably heinous things. Far worse in A lot of areas than they did during the first term. And you've seen obviously some people from within the government, like resign prosecutors, FBI United, Mike Feinberg on the pod who did this recently, and even Republicans within the government. I'm blanking on the woman's name who was prosecuting. Eric Adams, for one example.

[Bill Kristol]

Danielle Sassoon, I think.

[Tim Miller]

Sassoon, yeah, I should remember that. Siegfried Sassoon. It's a unique name. Anyway, you've seen that, but like from the operative class, you haven't. And to me, I thought it was. It's important for people to put themselves out there and say, no, this is like a moral sacrifice I cannot make anymore because otherwise people get cozy, you know, and people, people who know better just are like, well, this is just how life is now. You know, what are we supposed to do? The people elected him twice, you know, who am I to be the one to make a moral stand when 77 million people chose to vote for him, et cetera? I guess I'll just go about my day and drop off at school and then go into my Republican ad firm and make disgusting ad campaigns on behalf of fascists. Because what the alternative is, is too challenging. And there's no reason to think about this any other than as an actual ethical question. And so by putting himself out there, I do feel like he re raises this as an ethical question that people should be forced to reckon with. So I appreciate him for doing it for that reason.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, I very much agree. I'd say, if anything, the tendency has been unfortunately the other way that elites who previously had. There's been more capitulation and more collaboration really with Trump now than there was in the first term when he was not nearly doing as many bad things because he had so many internal checks and a few more external checks too. And the degree of obviously business and law firm and other kinds, elite capitulation, as I say, collaboration has been really startling. So it's good to have someone who's not a lawyer making $2 million a year and is not a, you know, big shot who's near the end of his career and can just should be able to just say, no, I'm not doing that. But in fact, they seem to all have to, you know, 78 year old billionaires, they just have to be on board the Trump thing because life would just be intolerable for them otherwise, you know, and here's a youngish guy, I guess, maybe a little bit younger than you, maybe, you know, with a young family, mid-30s.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Kids real job has to pay the bills.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah. Just saying. And one reason he stayed was that he had to pay the bills at various points felt he, you know, felt that sort of overcame his, his compunctions. Just saying no too much. I hope it really does shame a few other people, not just his peers. That would be good too, incidentally. And peers people in the administration who were just sort of going along, getting along and figure it's way up the ladder. But also, what about shaming some of the people 30 years older than him and 100 times wealthier.

[Tim Miller]

It's what I always felt about the Cassidy Hutchinson, Sarah Matthews. I said this to Sarah when she was on Occupants. It's crazy that it was 24 year old young women working in the comms department who were the ones that had the courage that people who had already had an entire career and could have stood forth, they had more courage than these cowardly old men did. And one last thing I want to pick your brain on that I meant to ask you about was what does Bill Kristol think about the scuttlebutt over Graham Platner in Maine? What do you think about that whole discourse, a lot of online discourse about this. A lot of people really dug in on one side of the other people who missed it. This is the main oysterman and he had some Reddit posts from 10 years ago that were. There are a couple of jokes that were offensive, a couple of comments, one in particular people brought up about sexual assault that was offensive. There are also some jokes are pretty funny. I have to say, you know, it's something he did 10 years ago. He's coming out now and saying that, you know, he was a victim of the male loneliness crisis, which is a little overwrought for me, but okay. But you know, he also was very, has been very upfront and dealing with it and honest. And it's interesting. I've said from the start, I'm kind of like not trying to dig in one way or the other on these primaries, like let the campaigns play out, we'll see how it go. But a lot of discourse about Graham Platner's Reddit posts. I wonder what you, what you've made of it.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, I'm sort of where you are sort of. I'd like I just haven't honestly looked at it closely and decided, oh my God, this is crosses some line. These lines are pretty murky in this kind of thing where there's no action, I gather, charged against him and it's, you know, he shouldn't have done these things. And he's a part. But he has apologized. But on the other hand he wasn't that young when he did it. But on the third hand he, okay, he had some crises when he was in his late 20s or early 30s. Not everyone has their crises at age 19. And then now he seems to have been pretty impressive. Impressive guy. So I, I'm, I'm ambivalent too. I mean as a matter of stepping back, I was somewhat sympathetic to him even though he's a lefty and you know on a lot of issues way to the left of where I am. So I thought the idea of nominating Governor Mills who I otherwise like and think she's a good person and probably but a good governor nominating a 77 year old to sort of like let's have some fresh blood politics and you got to get beyond, got to get beyond this Biden Trump person. But hey, we found a governor who's almost exactly the same age as Trump. I don't mean to compare Janet Mills to Donald Trump. She's infinitely better in so many ways. I just feel like I prefer having more having younger people as the Democratic nominees. All things equal.

[Tim Miller]

I do too. I also throw out there though Janet Mills seems pretty spunky. I've been watching a couple that's true.

[Bill Kristol]

And she fought Trump in the White House or stood up to him which not everyone did. Right. So I give her. Maybe I'm being.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. They know there are no perfect candidates. It's an important race. So it's important the Democrats figure out who the candidate is most likely to defeat. Susan Collins if they don't have any chance of taking the Senate which is a pretty long shot to begin with. The Janet Mills thing, that does tie me to the Biden question a little bit which was there's a little bit of you shouldn't believe your lying eyes about Biden that I know that you, Bill Kristol were resisting throughout. Like not every 79 year old is cut the same. You know I mean I forget how old Mitt Romney is. He's like 73 and he looks handsomer than if you had put Russ Vogt who's I think like 46 or something and Mitt Romney next to each other. You think the Mitt was younger. So you know people age differently. We'll see. Janet Mills has shown some fight and some of these interviews worth, worth continuing to monitor. All right, you're at Kenya. Final thing, you're Ken and Sarah Longwell's alma mater. It Seems like you're not that impressed with the lords and the ladies. It felt like in the green room.

[Bill Kristol]

I. No, oh no, it's really great. People watch this this afternoon and then I have to speak tonight. I. I want.

[Tim Miller]

I love it.

[Bill Kristol]

It's one of the finest places I've ever been. I Gambier, Ohio. I'm thinking Susan and I are thinking of relocating camp here because, you know, the small town atmosphere and all that. I'm not a real small town person, I gotta admit. I mean, I grew up in New York and have lived in big cities in the east coast, so it's. No, but it's. It's a lovely place. I've always admired the college. I sort of forgotten. I gotta see just how. I mean, most small colleges I've been to are small colleges, often in small towns. But there's like a town in which the college is the main employer, but there are other people there. Whereas Gambier is Kenya. And I mean, almost literally. I think there's, you know, there are a couple of restaurants of, you know, pizza places and coffee shops, obviously, but it's entirely Kenyan. Faculty, students, administrators. Mount Vernon, the big city, five miles away. We were driving, so they said nicely. Sent someone to pick me up at the airport in Columbus. We're driving back. It's 7:15, 7:30 last night. My work here starts, you know, this afternoon and tonight, Monday. So he says, look, you want to stop in Mount Vernon, pick up maybe a little hamburger or something for the road because everything will be closed. And in, in Gambier. I said, well, everything. I mean, I guess, yeah, actually Sunday night, the actual Kenya Inn where you're staying, which is a lovely place. I want to say old, you know, old school kind of place. They don't, they don't serve food Sunday night. I said, well, how about like just some pizza place or. Yeah, even just grocery store. Actually, everything closes by about 7 or 8pm so it's like basic. I, I had. Actually someone had warned me about this. I, I now got a. I wasn't quite as pitiful or as surprised as I'm pretending in this. Besides, I picked up a couple of things at the Columbus airport, like, you know, some Braz for the room while I watched the Mariners game last night. So anyway, it is a lovely place. I've always admired Kenyon. Sarah got an excellent. Is very fond of it. Very loyal alumni. I think most alumni here are very. We have what, three or four Kenyan employees at.

[Tim Miller]

A lot of Kenyan employees, yes.

[Bill Kristol]

It's kind of yeah, they're getting it totally on merit. You know, it's. No, we don't have dei. We don't have a dei.

[Tim Miller]

It's kind of like Gary Weiss's sisters or something.

[Bill Kristol]

Kenya and Equity. Kenyan Equity. And they're all excellent, incidentally, and they're very nice people. And I'm totally pro Kenyan. I want to say that for the third time, just in case anyone is going to be there tonight. Who's watching.

[Tim Miller]

Good to know. Maybe you'll uncover some of the trauma that made Sarah the way she is while you're there. We'll see how that goes. We can report back next Monday. That's Bill Kristol. Everybody else, we've got a doubleheader that might be interesting tomorrow. We'll see how it goes, so stick around for that. We'll be seeing you all then. Peace.

[Bob Dylan (reading 'Subterranean Homesick Blues')]

John is in a basement mixing up the medicine. I'm on a pavement thinking about the government. The man in a trench coat, badge out, laid off. Says he's got a bad cough, wants to get it paid off. Look out, kid, it's something you did, God knows when, but you're doing it again. You better duck down the alleyway looking for a new friend. A man in a coon skin cap in a pig pen Wants eleven dollar bills, you only got ten. Mega Kong's three foot face full of black silver good. Talking at the heat, put plants in the bed. But the phone's tapped anyway. Maggie says a man they say they must bust nearly man orders from the D.A. look out, kid, don't matter what you did but walk on your tiptoes. Don't tie no bows. Better stay away from those that carry a fire hose. Keep a clean nose, wash the plain clothes, you don't need to wear the.

[Tim Miller]

Man to know it.

[Bob Dylan (reading 'Subterranean Homesick Blues')]

Till the wind blow. Oh, get sick, get well, hang around and ink well, hang bell. Hard to tell if anything is gonna sell. Try hard, get boxed, get back, ride frail, get jail, jump bail. Join the army at bail. Look out, kid, you're gonna get hit by losers, cheaters, six time users Hanging round the theaters. Girl by the whirlpools looking for a new fool. Don't follow leaders or watch a parking. Oh, get born, keep warm, short pants.

[Tim Miller]

Romance.

[Bob Dylan (reading 'Subterranean Homesick Blues')]

Learn to dance, get dressed, get blessed. Poppy success, Please her, please him. Buy gifts, don't steal, don't live. 20 years of schooling and they put you on a day shift. Look out, kids, they keep it all hidden. Better jump down a manhole, light yourself a candle, don't wear sandals and try to afford to scandal. Don't want to be a bum, you better chew gum. The pump don't work because the vandals took the handle.

[Tim Miller]

The Boar Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.