The Bulwark Podcast: Bill Kristol – "Trump Hates America"

Date: October 20, 2025
Guests: Bill Kristol
Host: Tim Miller

Episode Overview

This episode of The Bulwark Podcast features Tim Miller in conversation with Bill Kristol, focusing on the aftermath and significance of the nationwide "No Kings" protests, the latest political rhetoric from Trump and his allies, and disturbing trends in U.S. domestic and foreign policy under the Trump administration. The conversation weaves sharp analysis, personal experiences, and pointed critique, zeroing in on political messaging, public protests, moral reckonings among former Republican operatives, and the shifting dynamics of patriotism in America today.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. "No Kings" Protests: Scale, Spirit, and Backlash

Timestamps: 01:51–13:36

• Massive Turnout & Spirit
  • Bill attended a protest in McLean, VA, noting a huge turnout and an atmosphere that combined “joyfulness and sobriety.”
    • "I was much more moved and kind of inspired by it than I expected to be, honestly." (Bill Kristol, 03:56)
  • 7 million participated nationwide — potentially the largest protest in U.S. history.
• Cultural Atmosphere
  • Described as a “picnic” or “neighborhood get-together” with no speeches at smaller events, just people mingling, waving signs, and multiple generations present.
• Countering Right-Wing Smears
  • Tim and Bill address the right’s attempts (Mike Johnson, Donald Trump) to label protestors as "terrorists" or "hate America" radicals.
    • "They just say these things and it doesn't happen and it's a smear and a slander in this case on millions of Americans and I guess they just move on to the next smear and slander, right?" (Bill Kristol, 05:31)
  • Ironically, these smears seem to have increased turnout: “Signups doubled since the terrorist rhetoric started.”
• Strategic Value for Democrats
  • Tim pushes back on DC punditry criticism that “No Kings” is vague; he argues big-tent mobilization is effective and that Democratic base is energized by taking a stand for democracy and liberal patriotism.
  • Bill argues that the protests help liberals reclaim patriotic tradition.
    • "I think this really could be a marker where the liberals retake the American tradition and American history." (Bill Kristol, 09:41)

2. Youth Participation & Protest Fatigue

Timestamps: 09:59–11:50

• Older Demographics & Youth Apathy
  • Some disappointment about a more “older crowd,” though not exclusively.
  • Tim shares feedback from Gen Z: after March for Our Lives, BLM, Women’s March, and Gaza protests, many feel defeated by Trump’s reelection and have “gone on with their lives.”
    • "I don't know, we're going on with our lives for a little bit." (Tim Miller, 10:45)
  • Bill sees the delayed momentum as an understandable reaction to collective demoralization, but is optimistic about a new phase of engagement.

3. Trump’s Grotesque Rhetoric and Patriotism Reversal

Timestamps: 11:50–13:36

• AI Video Post and Media Failure
  • Trump posts an AI video of himself dropping feces on protesters; JD Vance amplifies it as a joke.
    • "At this point, the thing I guess that I want to mention is this is just where we are now in our society. I guess we just have to kind of, like, accept this. At some level. It is grotesque, though." (Tim Miller, 11:58)
  • Media coverage is critiqued for sanitizing or underplaying the real content and intent of Trump’s message.
• The Core Argument: Trump Hates America
  • Bill Kristol posits directly:
    "He hates Americans. I now think the liberals just need to say Trump hates America." (Bill Kristol, 13:17)
  • Tim expands: Trump prefers foreign strongmen and despises “America loving patriots protesting at the villages,” highlighting the bizarre inversion of traditional claims to patriotism.

4. U.S. Foreign Policy and Authoritarian Appeasement

Timestamps: 15:08–22:08

• Trump’s Policy Toward Ukraine
  • Reporting discussed: Trump’s hostile meeting with Zelensky — “yelling, cursing,” pressuring Ukraine to give territorial concessions to Putin.
  • Bill: Trump’s default toward dictators is consistent and, in Ukraine’s case, particularly grotesque.
    • "He pretty reliably, at the end of the day comes down with the dictators." (Bill Kristol, 16:52)
  • Miller and Kristol consider if Trump’s behavior is best explained by his admiration for authoritarians, financial self-interest, or possibly more nefarious ties (the “Trump-Russia” theory).
• Scandal Over MS-13 Extraditions and Performative Cruelty
  • Tim exposes Rubio’s trade of MS-13 informants for El Salvador’s prison usage, leaving the U.S. with nothing in return and undermining anti-gang policy.
    • "If you really are concerned about gang violence and cracking down on the gangs, you would think that those people would be upset that the government gave away these assets." (Tim Miller, 21:17)
  • Bill underscores the harmful consequences and performative nature of these policies.

5. Extrajudicial Killings in the Caribbean and Legal/Policy Chaos

Timestamps: 25:50–27:32

• U.S. Boat Attacks Controversy
  • Tim describes suspicious incidents where the U.S. attacked boats, claiming to target drug lords, yet evidence and due process are lacking.
  • Surviving suspects are simply repatriated to Venezuela, possibly to avoid legal complications or testimony.
    • "They don't think they can sustain, I gather, a criminal prosecution and there would be habeas corpus things. I mean, that would be a real trial. Right." (Bill Kristol, 26:04)
  • Bill highlights the dangerous blending of war and law enforcement without accountability.

6. Government Shutdown: Political Implications and Public Perceptions

Timestamps: 27:32–30:57

• Shutdown Fallout
  • Shutdown continues with limited public focus; Bill notes little discussion even among those most affected in DC suburbs.
  • Democrats perceived as holding a strong position, having raised the salience of healthcare and demonstrated backbone.
  • Miller attributes Democrats’ posture to a lack of any compelling reason to concede, and emphasizes that substantive suffering remains, as documented by Bulwark writer Jonathan Cohn.

7. Moral Reckonings of Republican Operatives: Miles Bruner Article

Timestamps: 30:57–35:42

• A New Defector Speaks Out
  • Discussion of an article by Miles Bruner, a young Republican operative who finally breaks ties with the party over moral concerns.
  • Both hosts comment on the significance of public resignations, the social pressures involved, and the disappointing trend of elite capitulation to Trump.
    • "It’s important for people to put themselves out there and say, no, this is like a moral sacrifice I cannot make anymore because otherwise people get cozy." (Tim Miller, 33:34)
  • Bill emphasizes how rare and valuable these acts of conscience are, particularly among the less wealthy and established.

8. Maine Democratic Primary Discourse: Graham Platner’s Old Reddit Posts

Timestamps: 35:42–38:15

• The Platner Dilemma
  • The hosts discuss controversy over offensive, decade-old Reddit posts from Maine candidate Graham Platner.
  • Both express ambivalence: recognizing the seriousness of past comments but acknowledging genuine contrition and the complicated calculus of candidate vetting.
  • Tim connects this to the broader issue of candidate age and “fresh blood” in the party.

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On media distortions:
  "Trump posts fake videos of himself flying a King Trump jet over protesters. It's like, that's not an accurate representation of what happened. Right. And so, you know, Trump is just so grotesque and crude and disgusting that he gets a pass for it in a lot of ways."
  — Tim Miller (12:22)

• On Trump's authoritarian sympathies:
  "He pretty reliably, at the end of the day comes down with the dictators. And in this case it's grotesque because this particular dictator is even worse than most and has more blood on his hands..."
  — Bill Kristol (16:52)

• On liberals reclaiming patriotism:
  "I think this really could be a marker where the liberals retake the American tradition and American history."
  — Bill Kristol (09:41)

• On moral responsibility in politics:
  "To me, I think the value of having [Miles Bruner] come out and write it is that... the value is that nobody's done it this year. Like we're on October 20th. We've been 10 months in to this administration. They've done unbelievably heinous things."
  — Tim Miller (33:34)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Marine Corps Artillery Protest Incident: 00:12–01:51
• "No Kings" Protest Report & Political Impact: 01:51–09:59
• Right-Wing Smears and Patriotic Reclaiming: 04:25–09:59
• Youth Protest Fatigue Discussion: 09:59–11:50
• Trump’s Grotesque Anti-Protester Video: 11:50–13:36
• Trump-Zelensky Meeting & Ukraine Policy: 15:08–18:16
• Trump’s Authoritarian Affinity – Causes & Theories: 18:16–22:08
• MS-13, El Salvador, and Policy Critique: 20:40–22:08
• Caribbean Boat Attacks/Human Rights: 25:50–27:32
• Shutdown and Political Ramifications: 27:32–30:57
• Republican Operatives and Personal Reckoning: 30:57–35:42
• Maine Primary and Graham Platner: 35:42–38:15

Tone and Language

Maintaining The Bulwark’s signature blend of irreverence, tough-minded analysis, and principled concern for democracy, the conversation is direct, at times caustic, and shot through with both frustration and hope. The hosts use humor to take the edge off the nation’s craziness but extend genuine empathy to Americans feeling battered by politics in these times.

Conclusion

This wide-ranging episode dissects both symbolic and substantive struggles in contemporary American politics — from street-level protests and media manipulation to elite moral calculus and existential questions about the nation’s identity. Bill Kristol and Tim Miller position the “No Kings” movement not just as a protest against Trump, but as an effort to reclaim American patriotism, challenging both their listeners and the broader political class to make conscious, ethical choices in dark times.