The Bulwark Podcast: Bill Kristol on "Trump Is a Moral Monster"

Released: July 28, 2025

In this compelling episode of The Bulwark Podcast, host Tim Miller engages in a deep and insightful conversation with Bill Kristol, the publication's editor at large. The discussion delves into the intricate and disturbing connections between former President Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein, examining the moral and political ramifications of their association. Additionally, the episode features a poignant interview with Stacey Williams, a survivor who recounts her harrowing experiences with Epstein and Trump.

1. Epstein-Trump Relationship and Its Implications

[01:55] Bill Kristol:
Kristol underscores the severity of the Epstein-Trump relationship, describing it as "more than I realized even a month ago." He emphasizes the closeness between the two figures and the repulsive nature of their interactions, suggesting that Trump's awareness of Epstein's exploitative activities was deeper than previously thought.

[02:52] Tim Miller:
Miller highlights the importance of hearing directly from victims like Stacey Williams, asserting that their voices often get lost in the broader narrative. He points out the significance of corroborating stories, noting the similarities between Williams' account and that of Maria Farmer, another Epstein victim who reported their encounters to the FBI in 1996.

[05:19] Bill Kristol:
Kristol criticizes the Trump administration's handling of the Epstein scandal, particularly the decision to request grand jury transcripts, which he views as a "gimmicky" move. He advocates for a steadfast approach, likening it to the "stonewall" strategy used by past administrations to manage political crises.

2. Political Vulnerability of Trump Amid Scandals

[04:37] Bill Kristol:
Kristol reflects on a Washington Post headline about Trump "fumbling" over the Epstein scandal, expressing frustration with the recurring nature of such stories. He compares the situation to a "Groundhog Day" scenario, where the same issues persist without resolution.

[07:07] Tim Miller:
Miller poses a provocative idea to Kristol: what if Trump's team had continued to stonewall and refused to engage with the media? Kristol responds by acknowledging the initial backlash but argues that maintaining a firm stance could have potentially limited media fascination and public intrigue.

[15:01] Tim Miller:
Discussing the ongoing cover-up, Kristol emphasizes that the administration's actions—such as teasing future revelations—have only fueled public interest. He notes that this strategy inadvertently "raises the question" about what else might be hidden, thereby sustaining the scandal's momentum.

3. August Recess and Senate Races

[25:07] Bill Kristol:
Shifting focus to the political landscape, Kristol comments on the implications of upcoming Senate races. He mentions Roy Cooper, the Governor of North Carolina, and Dan Osborne, an independent candidate in Nebraska, highlighting their unconventional candidacies and potential impacts on the Democratic and Republican parties.

[26:45] Tim Miller:
Miller analyzes the competitiveness of these races, noting Osborne's strong performance against Deb Fischer in Nebraska as a testament to the shifting dynamics in traditionally Republican strongholds.

4. EU Tariff Deal and Economic Impact

[28:06] Bill Kristol:
Kristol discusses the recent EU tariff deal initiated by Trump, describing it as "unthinkable a year ago" and now part of the new economic baseline. He anticipates that these tariffs will have a more substantial impact than markets currently expect, potentially slowing GDP growth from 3% to 2%.

[32:27] Tim Miller:
Miller contrasts the broad economic shocks of past inflation surges with the more targeted impact of the tariffs, pondering whether consumers will respond adversely to increased costs on specific goods like imported sweaters.

5. Gaza Crisis and Trump's Foreign Policy

[35:16] Bill Kristol:
Addressing the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, Kristol criticizes Trump's seemingly detached response, highlighted by his remark about watching the situation unfold on television. He laments Trump's withdrawal from international organizations, arguing that collaborative efforts are essential for effective humanitarian intervention.

[37:30] Tim Miller:
Miller echoes Kristol's concerns, noting that Trump's approach to foreign policy, particularly in the Middle East, reveals the limitations of the "America First" ideology. He points out Trump's close ties with Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu and the resulting complications in addressing the Gaza situation.

6. Stacey Williams' Testimony: A Survivor's Voice

[43:08] Tim Miller:
The episode transitions to an emotional segment featuring Stacey Williams, a former swimsuit model who bravely recounts her experiences with Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump in the 1990s. Williams describes how she was introduced to Epstein by her agent and subsequently became involved with both Epstein and Trump.

[48:13] Stacey Williams:
Williams details a traumatic incident where Trump and Epstein sexually harassed her in Trump Tower. She shares her struggle to comprehend and cope with the abuse, ultimately deciding to end her association with Epstein after realizing the depth of his malevolence.

[52:54] Stacey Williams:
Addressing the broader implications, Williams emphasizes the government's lack of transparency regarding Epstein's alleged recordings. She questions the existence and accessibility of incriminating videos, voicing a collective need for closure and accountability for all victims.

[55:47] Tim Miller:
Miller reflects on Williams' encounter, highlighting the disturbing comfort Trump exhibited despite his heinous actions. He underscores the importance of differentiating between witnessing the behavior of powerful individuals and holding them accountable.

7. Closing Thoughts and Future Outlook

[41:11] Tim Miller:
In closing, Miller urges the audience to recognize the complexity of Trump's ideologies and the challenges in addressing the atrocities linked to Epstein. He acknowledges the emotional and political toll of these revelations and calls for continued advocacy and transparency.

[43:07] Bill Kristol:
Kristol reiterates his stance on Trump's detrimental impact on both national and global scales. He expresses a cautious hope that Trump's inconsistent policies may inadvertently lead to less harm than maximalist actions would have.

[65:05] Bill Kristol:
In a final remark, Kristol laments the systemic issues within the administration, attributing the ongoing crises to Trump's leadership and the sycophantic nature of his advisors.

Key Quotes

• Bill Kristol:
  "Trump is way not even plausibly in anything like that category of slightly unknowing golf buddy or business partner... he is cheek by jowl, so to speak, with Epstein chasing women."
  [12:16]

• Stacey Williams:
  "I just have a lot of questions. And I have other victims who have come forward and wonder if there's video of them. I'd like to know if it exists."
  [54:00]

• Tim Miller:
  "Having a bottle of wine around the house is nice, but if you're not a huge wine drinker, Naked Wines is a solution to ensure we're always loaded up with different varietals."
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Conclusion

This episode of The Bulwark Podcast delivers a potent mix of investigative journalism, personal testimony, and political analysis. Bill Kristol's incisive critique of Trump's moral and political standing, combined with Stacey Williams' courageous recounting of her abuse, paints a troubling picture of power, corruption, and the enduring quest for justice. The discussions underscore the necessity for transparency, accountability, and sustained advocacy to address the deep-seated issues revealed by the Epstein-Trump scandal.