Bill Kristol: Trump Is a Moral Monster

Summary

The Bulwark Podcast: Bill Kristol on "Trump Is a Moral Monster"

Released: July 28, 2025

In this compelling episode of The Bulwark Podcast, host Tim Miller engages in a deep and insightful conversation with Bill Kristol, the publication's editor at large. The discussion delves into the intricate and disturbing connections between former President Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein, examining the moral and political ramifications of their association. Additionally, the episode features a poignant interview with Stacey Williams, a survivor who recounts her harrowing experiences with Epstein and Trump.

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1. Epstein-Trump Relationship and Its Implications

[01:55] Bill Kristol:
Kristol underscores the severity of the Epstein-Trump relationship, describing it as "more than I realized even a month ago." He emphasizes the closeness between the two figures and the repulsive nature of their interactions, suggesting that Trump's awareness of Epstein's exploitative activities was deeper than previously thought.

[02:52] Tim Miller:
Miller highlights the importance of hearing directly from victims like Stacey Williams, asserting that their voices often get lost in the broader narrative. He points out the significance of corroborating stories, noting the similarities between Williams' account and that of Maria Farmer, another Epstein victim who reported their encounters to the FBI in 1996.

[05:19] Bill Kristol:
Kristol criticizes the Trump administration's handling of the Epstein scandal, particularly the decision to request grand jury transcripts, which he views as a "gimmicky" move. He advocates for a steadfast approach, likening it to the "stonewall" strategy used by past administrations to manage political crises.

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2. Political Vulnerability of Trump Amid Scandals

[04:37] Bill Kristol:
Kristol reflects on a Washington Post headline about Trump "fumbling" over the Epstein scandal, expressing frustration with the recurring nature of such stories. He compares the situation to a "Groundhog Day" scenario, where the same issues persist without resolution.

[07:07] Tim Miller:
Miller poses a provocative idea to Kristol: what if Trump's team had continued to stonewall and refused to engage with the media? Kristol responds by acknowledging the initial backlash but argues that maintaining a firm stance could have potentially limited media fascination and public intrigue.

[15:01] Tim Miller:
Discussing the ongoing cover-up, Kristol emphasizes that the administration's actions—such as teasing future revelations—have only fueled public interest. He notes that this strategy inadvertently "raises the question" about what else might be hidden, thereby sustaining the scandal's momentum.

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3. August Recess and Senate Races

[25:07] Bill Kristol:
Shifting focus to the political landscape, Kristol comments on the implications of upcoming Senate races. He mentions Roy Cooper, the Governor of North Carolina, and Dan Osborne, an independent candidate in Nebraska, highlighting their unconventional candidacies and potential impacts on the Democratic and Republican parties.

[26:45] Tim Miller:
Miller analyzes the competitiveness of these races, noting Osborne's strong performance against Deb Fischer in Nebraska as a testament to the shifting dynamics in traditionally Republican strongholds.

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4. EU Tariff Deal and Economic Impact

[28:06] Bill Kristol:
Kristol discusses the recent EU tariff deal initiated by Trump, describing it as "unthinkable a year ago" and now part of the new economic baseline. He anticipates that these tariffs will have a more substantial impact than markets currently expect, potentially slowing GDP growth from 3% to 2%.

[32:27] Tim Miller:
Miller contrasts the broad economic shocks of past inflation surges with the more targeted impact of the tariffs, pondering whether consumers will respond adversely to increased costs on specific goods like imported sweaters.

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5. Gaza Crisis and Trump's Foreign Policy

[35:16] Bill Kristol:
Addressing the humanitarian crisis in Gaza, Kristol criticizes Trump's seemingly detached response, highlighted by his remark about watching the situation unfold on television. He laments Trump's withdrawal from international organizations, arguing that collaborative efforts are essential for effective humanitarian intervention.

[37:30] Tim Miller:
Miller echoes Kristol's concerns, noting that Trump's approach to foreign policy, particularly in the Middle East, reveals the limitations of the "America First" ideology. He points out Trump's close ties with Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu and the resulting complications in addressing the Gaza situation.

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6. Stacey Williams' Testimony: A Survivor's Voice

[43:08] Tim Miller:
The episode transitions to an emotional segment featuring Stacey Williams, a former swimsuit model who bravely recounts her experiences with Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump in the 1990s. Williams describes how she was introduced to Epstein by her agent and subsequently became involved with both Epstein and Trump.

[48:13] Stacey Williams:
Williams details a traumatic incident where Trump and Epstein sexually harassed her in Trump Tower. She shares her struggle to comprehend and cope with the abuse, ultimately deciding to end her association with Epstein after realizing the depth of his malevolence.

[52:54] Stacey Williams:
Addressing the broader implications, Williams emphasizes the government's lack of transparency regarding Epstein's alleged recordings. She questions the existence and accessibility of incriminating videos, voicing a collective need for closure and accountability for all victims.

[55:47] Tim Miller:
Miller reflects on Williams' encounter, highlighting the disturbing comfort Trump exhibited despite his heinous actions. He underscores the importance of differentiating between witnessing the behavior of powerful individuals and holding them accountable.

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7. Closing Thoughts and Future Outlook

[41:11] Tim Miller:
In closing, Miller urges the audience to recognize the complexity of Trump's ideologies and the challenges in addressing the atrocities linked to Epstein. He acknowledges the emotional and political toll of these revelations and calls for continued advocacy and transparency.

[43:07] Bill Kristol:
Kristol reiterates his stance on Trump's detrimental impact on both national and global scales. He expresses a cautious hope that Trump's inconsistent policies may inadvertently lead to less harm than maximalist actions would have.

[65:05] Bill Kristol:
In a final remark, Kristol laments the systemic issues within the administration, attributing the ongoing crises to Trump's leadership and the sycophantic nature of his advisors.

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Key Quotes

• Bill Kristol:
  "Trump is way not even plausibly in anything like that category of slightly unknowing golf buddy or business partner... he is cheek by jowl, so to speak, with Epstein chasing women."
  [12:16]

• Stacey Williams:
  "I just have a lot of questions. And I have other victims who have come forward and wonder if there's video of them. I'd like to know if it exists."
  [54:00]

• Tim Miller:
  "Having a bottle of wine around the house is nice, but if you're not a huge wine drinker, Naked Wines is a solution to ensure we're always loaded up with different varietals."
  (Note: This appears to be part of an advertisement and may be excluded as per instructions.)

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Conclusion

This episode of The Bulwark Podcast delivers a potent mix of investigative journalism, personal testimony, and political analysis. Bill Kristol's incisive critique of Trump's moral and political standing, combined with Stacey Williams' courageous recounting of her abuse, paints a troubling picture of power, corruption, and the enduring quest for justice. The discussions underscore the necessity for transparency, accountability, and sustained advocacy to address the deep-seated issues revealed by the Epstein-Trump scandal.

Transcript

[Tim Miller]

There's a time and a place for a filet of fish, but breakfast is for sausage biscuits.

[Bill Kristol]

McDonald's breakfast comes first.

[Stacey Williams]

What does possibility mean to you?

[Bill Kristol]

Um, that's a hard question. Something that you can strive for.

[Stacey Williams]

I'm able to do anything I set my mind to. You're confident in yourself and you believe in yourself. Stuff that you could achieve. I feel at Saita, at eating is possible when you're more confident.

[Bill Kristol]

Confident shoes are a huge part of that. They are the most important part of my style. You can like express yourself in the right shoes.

[Stacey Williams]

Anything is possible.

[Bill Kristol]

Dsw.

[Stacey Williams]

Countless shoes at brag worthy prices. Imagine the possibilities.

[Tim Miller]

Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We have a little special bonus segment in segment two today, late on Friday, I talked to Stacey Williams who I think has an interesting story as far as the victims of Trump and Epstein are concerned. She was not part of the child trafficking ring with Epstein, but she dated him when she was in her early 20s briefly, and he took advantage of her in some really creepy ways. We discuss. But during that time, Epstein brought her to Trump Tower where Trump sexually harassed her. So get to hear her story and what she wants for the victims in segment two. So stick around for that. Some of you might have already heard that we put it out on Bullork Takes over the weekend. If you're not subscribed to the Bullork Takes feed, definitely go check that out for more breaking news type stuff. But for the audio only, folks, it was a really touching interview, so stick around for Stacey Williams. But up first, it's Monday, so we've got editor at large of the book, Bill Kristol. What's going on, Bill?

[Bill Kristol]

That was an excellent Stacey Williams discussion. Both thought provoking in terms of how close Epstein and Trump were, how Epstein behaved to sort of, as you say, she wasn't directly involved in the trafficking ring with Maxwell, but a sense of how that might have gotten going. And also moving really to hear her. I mean, she's someone who came forward at some cost to herself. Right? She was like Epstein's girlfriend. I mean, she's. But she lays it out in a very straightforward way and it really, I mean, it's just part of a broader thing. The degree to which the whole thing is repulsive and the degree of closeness between Trump and Epstein, let's say in the woman chasing category and to some degree sliding down into at least Trump's knowledge of the girl exploiting child raping category. It's more than I realized even a month ago. Right. And I sort of followed this stuff a little bit. You know, I mean, there's so many multiple cases where women are now talking about Trump and Epstein being together, joking about. About it all. It's nothing with the birthday card and everything. So.

[Tim Miller]

And I think the two most relevant elements of it are just one kind of hearing from a victim about what they want. Right. And that sometimes gets lost in all this. I think that that is important in her case, talking about the kind of videotapes and wanting to know the truth about that. The other thing to your point is just the correct. The corroboration of the Trump and Epstein story is, I think, super important, you know, because essentially the story that Stacy tells is the same as what Maria Farmer told who reported this to the FBI in 1996. I think. Thanks for commentary. I think I've misstated that there's so many Epstein victims here. Around the same time, there was another underage Epstein victim and I'd mixed her up with Maria Farmer. Maria Farmer was actually over 18, but even still, she was a victim of Epstein. That literally similar story, like brought by Trump Tower. They were creepy together and it was a couple years later. So it's not like this was a, you know, like a one month friendship or whatever, like a very similar situation between these two victims a couple years apart. So anyway, stick around for that. Bill, you kind of write this morning about the more the politics of this. You start by commenting on this Washington Post story this morning. It's getting a lot of attention with the headline Trump Fumes as Epstein Scandal dominates the headlines. You write. I like the postmodern touch of having a headline about Trump fuming about headlines. That made me chuckle. I kind of hate these stories because, you know, I don't know, like, it's just, it feels like we're in, you know, one of these movies where things happen over and over again. You know, you can't, you can't. We're on Groundhog Day. Like, you can't get out of this. It's like for 10 years. So it's like Trump is mad behind the scenes, and then Trump's people say it's fake news. And it's like, I don't know, these stories annoy me a little bit. But that said, I think you get into kind of why this is relevant from a political standpoint.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, yeah. And I want to say I was actually going to write more about what Tom Joslin and I discussed yesterday, what you discussed with Stacey Williams, the Maria Farmer story. I mean, just the substance of it and how grotesque it is, both the crimes and Trump's proximity to them and then the COVID up. But I was struck by the Post story and I thought, you know, maybe it's worth laying out a little bit. Why I think politically Trump is more vulnerable than he has been in other similar situations or than he had or than he would have been. I think if they had just decided to stonewall and stuck to it. Honestly, they did have a lot of backlash when they started a stonewall on July 6th and that rattled them. But they honestly, from their point of view, better off sticking to these things than starting to open the door a bit. Because now he's repeatedly.

[Tim Miller]

It was a provocative point. Just really quick that I hadn't really thought of actually continuing to stonewall and just listening to Trump again. Trump does, for all the horrible traits he has, he has better political instincts than most of the consultant class and the people around him. And had they all sung from the hymnbook that he did of. It's over. We got to move on. Let's talk about Obama. They would be in better shape today, it's true. Than their current situation.

[Bill Kristol]

I think so. I mean, bonding. The AG and the Department of Justice and the FBI have decided to do this. I support that decision. It's over and we need to move on. Yeah. There would have been grumbling and people would have said, oh, we betray us. And some people might have stayed.

[Tim Miller]

He was still getting made fun of on the south park in the BRO podcast and stuff. But like the, the, the advancing of the story would have, would have potentially stopped.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah. And that's the key I think here, that when you get into a situation, they put out the video on the sixth, the prison video, just to have something to put out. I suppose that turned out to have a three minute gap. Then they decided, oof, we're getting beat up. Well, we'll request the grand jury transcripts, which is nonsense really from a substantive point of view of what you're going to learn. And the judges aren't going to release them anyway. But that's like a gimmicky thing. But it sort of raises the question, well, if they want to release that stuff, maybe there should be some other stuff. They could release their own accounts that they're selling the media of how they did the search is that maybe only 10% of the thousand pages or 10,000 pages, whatever they are, should be released once you do all the redactions. Still quite a lot of pages. Why aren't those being released and then obviously the trip to Maxwell and okay, we're now, he's now finding new information and then the tweet, I guess Blanche's tweet, Deputy Attorney general's posted social media post at the end about how stay tuned, more information to come. Something like that. I mean that's just the key to a stonewall is to reserve the wall. You know, the key to a cover up is to drop the curtain on the end the play.

[Tim Miller]

You know, not that we're giving advice on how to do a cover up just if we were right.

[Bill Kristol]

Whereas where sort of teasing the what's coming next. It just makes people interested out of kind of honestly out of some people I think for desire for justice and for accountability and for transparency and also just kind of like what's happening next? What's the next State? What's Act 4? You know, that was interesting in Act 3. So I think the Maxwell visit, the wife thought about it. They'll get, maybe they'll get the fake Maxwell statement that Trump wasn't involved. Maybe they'll get her pointing at other people. Maybe they'll do the deal. But the degree to which it sort of opened the door to kind of what's next and invites the media to look much more at what's coming next and what's coming and invites people who are unhappy from within the government, career people presumably FBI or doj, to sort of say, you know what, this thing is terrible. And we're going to point out that there is stuff in the files like the birthday card and maybe I'm being a little wishful thinking maybe they'll now shut the door. Fine. Maybe this is after Act 4. They succeed in the old cover up and the curtain drops and the whole cover up and the curtain drops. But I do think they again more than a little oxygen to the story. And now we've got a recess. And don't you think Republicans in Congress seem rattled, Democrats seem a little energized.

[Tim Miller]

I want to talk about August recess. Just one more thing though, in the Maxwell meeting because Andrew Weissman and I covered.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, that was a good, that was a good discussion too.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think he was really good on kind of the legal side of this. But it was after we taped that the Maxwell lawyer came out and said explicitly which what we all assumed implicitly was that they want a part, another sort of computation. I don't know. I mean they were teasing that there's maybe 100 names she could provide. How do you what do you think about all of that? Just. And then you have Mike Johnson over the weekend saying, not only do I not think she needs a part, and I think she'll be in jail for longer than 20 years. A rare agreement I have with Mike Johnson. How do you think all that kind of stuff nets. Nets out? Do you have any thoughts on that?

[Bill Kristol]

I think it's bad for Trump. I mean, I think a calling much more attention to Maxwell, who'd been a little bit relegated to the sort of sidekick of Epstein. And a lot of the early coverage, if people haven't followed it very closely. And I again would say I was a little bit in that category. Now you have women talking about what a monster she was. She was really key to the whole enterprise.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, my God, she's awful. Yeah. And she's also in the room. Some people haven't paid attention that close to this. A lot of people don't realize. They even just think she was like the secretary or whatever. There's like a sexism when the, like organized. When the girls come over, which is bad enough. Then she's in the room for some of the molestation, like some of the. I mean, she is a really dark, depraved character.

[Bill Kristol]

Yes. And there's Trump's deputy attorney general, also his personal defense lawyer, cordially yucking it up, apparently with Maxwell's lawyer, whom he also knows and Maxwell and I think no one else in the room. I've not gotten entire clarity. Do we have any reporting that there was any FBI agent or someone taking notes of this conversation? Or was it just.

[Tim Miller]

That's what Andrew was talking about at this point? We do not. But it doesn't mean that that wasn't happening. But we don't right now.

[Bill Kristol]

So I think they've opened the door to everyone to come forward and tell truthfully what a monster she was, how monstrous the whole enterprise with Epstein was. Epstein, let's go back to that again. She can say, well, Trump's just. She invited Trump or Epstein invited Trump. She and Epstein invited Trump as one of 20 friends to contribute the birthday card. It is what it is. Of course, they've all. Both Epstein and Trump have said many times what close friends they are. They can't really pretend Trump wasn't hang around with EPSTEIN for those 15 years. And here's one point. I think this comes out implicitly in your conversation, but Jocelyn made this point. Well, I thought in our little thing yesterday. Of course, Epstein had a million, knew a lot of people. He had parties, he had dinner parties. He played golf with people. He was a big shot. And there were people who therefore didn't know, maybe didn't want to know honestly what he was really like or maybe honestly just didn't know anything. They invited to a party at Epstein's. There were other famous, distinguished people there. They went to a dinner party.

[Tim Miller]

That is true, though I would just add one thing. There were some people that were doing this in like 2018, 10 years after he had been arrested. But anyway, totally agree.

[Bill Kristol]

And even 2011 and after the 2008 plea bargain and slap on the wrist, the degree to which a lot of the stuff continues and revives. Right. Isn't the whole Virgin island thing post 2008?

[Tim Miller]

Not the whole thing, but some of it.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, yeah, some of it. I mean, it's terrible. Anyway, so I don't want to give any excuse to any of these people. Having said that, Trump is way not even plausibly in anything like that category of slightly unknowing golf buddy or business partner or, you know, Wall street associate or some such thing. He is cheek by jowl, so to speak, with Epstein chasing women. I mean, that's, that's just explicit in public. Now, obviously the underage question is open. We don't know. Maybe Trump was careful to on that side. But again, the degree of proximity and the kinds of things they were doing together for 15 years, I mean, I just think that sunk in in a way that I'm not sure it had. What do you think did it before the whole thing broke out? Did people know that? I don't know how much there was.

[Tim Miller]

This is one of those things where it's hard for me to separate because I thought everybody did. I don't know. I got an email from a reporter or a text from a reporter yesterday that he was sending me a pitch. I had sent him back to my anti Trump PR days from 2016 or maybe even 2015, it was nine or 10 years ago, about the Trump and Epstein relationship. And he sends it to me and he's like, time is a flat circle. He's like, I was going through my old inbox and like, here's a pitch from you 10 years ago. So I knew, and I think that, like, people that paid a close attention to this knew, but I think now it's. We're at a different level. I think it's safe to say now as far as people's awareness of it.

[Bill Kristol]

Could you say it's to your credit that you pitched it? It's also interesting that you had to pitch it because that in a way, doesn't that suggest that, that you felt you had to pitch it meant it wasn't front and center in the news, Right?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, it's a good point. He's talking right now. He's always talking. But as we're taping this and so on Epstein, I had a couple of things I want to get to from earlier in this press conference, but just right now, a couple comments. It's a hoax. It's been built up way beyond proportion. The files were run by the worst scum on earth. Comey, Garland, Biden and all the people that actually led the government, including the auto pen. The whole thing is a hoax. And then he goes on, I never went to Epstein's island. I never had the privilege of going to his island. That appears to be a direct quote. I haven't actually heard that, but I'm just getting this as it's coming across. Our guide producer, Jared, we should shout him out. He had a viral tweet over the weekend that was like, Trump has more pictures with Epstein than most people do with their grandparents. Kind of macabre, but did well. You can kind of tell that he doesn't think this is a big deal. Beyond the COVID up part of it, isn't there something that betrays if the strategy is, oh, we're going to get whoever, I'm not going to name random people's names, but like we're going to get these other Democrats who are in these files and we're going to focus on them with a deal with Maxwell that runs counter to the idea that it's a hoax. Right. And it's hard to imagine that Trump's selling that. You can tell where Trump's hardest, Trump's heart is. Like this guy was kind of playing a little grab ass and boys will be boys and it's not that big of a deal. And I never went to the island, so don't look at me on the kid stuff. But it seemed like a great island, you know, like that to me. Seems like where his, his heart is on this. And so it's hard to execute the other part of the plan when you're doing that.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, just two points on that. So Blanche, the way I think about it, prompted by what you just said, Blanche's comment or Maxwell's lawyer's comment, I guess uncontradicted by Blanche, that they went over 100 names, Blanche spending 8 hours, 10 hours with Maxwell, that's bad for them. That is to say they shouldn't want other names. I know they're tempted to go with Clinton and all this stuff and Democrats. The right way to do this if you were doing the COVID up. Not that you and I would be giving advice, but luckily they've already not done this, so it doesn't matter.

[Tim Miller]

Matter.

[Bill Kristol]

Blanche should have gone, said, look, I spoke with Maxwell very briefly. She's a liar and a convicted sex offender, but I felt a due diligence. There's been a bit of an uproar. You know, I asked her what she knows and she wasn't forthcoming. There seems to be no more from her than there was already in the files. Case closed. They did the opposite. 100 names. I think this thing can be kept alive until we see a hundred names. And incidentally, that's very problematic. They can't all literally be Democrats. That would be kind of crazy, right? And isn't there one of their main talking points? I think not a talking point I like much. I think you've been critical of it, too. Oh, all these innocent people just get mentioned. It's just hearsay. They should stick. That's a better place for them to sit. We're not going to deal in here. Say, I don't trust Maxwell. It's closed. He could have maybe used the Maxwell meeting as a way to reclose the door, so to speak, having opened it. Instead, he's now opened it wide. He's at odds with Trump in a sense, who's saying it's just a hoax. There's nothing there. That's a little untenable, I believe. I mean, they were. Maxwell and Epstein were convicted. Epstein pled to serious crimes. The other thing about Trump, personally, such a kind of moral monster, honestly, it doesn't even occur to him to preface these statements with a sentence or two about the victims. Every normal human being, every normal politician would say first, I want to say terrible.

[Tim Miller]

Even the sociopaths would know that they had to fake it. You'd think like Trump is so far gone past that.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, he really is, isn't he? I mean, there's not even a pretense of having any concern for these people. So what is the. I haven't. This press conference is happening as we're speaking, so I haven't thought about that part. But what is their line now? The files are a hoax or they're worth pursuing. Maxwell didn't do anything. Or she's got 100 names of people that, that the Justice Department, the Trump Justice Department has to track down. They Really, I think my. I'm going to say my little morning shots thing is this would add to the list of, you know, continuing the drama, so to speak. It's sort of like, let's. Oh, go. There's another mystery. It's like watching a mystery. I was watching a British mystery last night, you know, TV on BritBox and stuff. You know, it's sort of like another development. How does that fit in? Right. You don't want, if you're running cover up, to be kind of continually intriguing people with new developments.

[Tim Miller]

Just one more on just kind of this contrast between Trump, which, again, I want to repeat what he said. It's a hoax that has been built up way beyond proportion. So that's where his stance is. Dan Bongino, the Deputy FBI director who has been one of the leading people talking about the need to uncover who all the pedophiles are in the Epstein files back when he was a competitor in the podcast space, is now at the Bureau and he put out this statement. He doesn't mention Epstein per se in the statement, but I want to read it, just because the contrast in tone between hoax built up beyond proportion and where Bongino is is pretty stark. The director, Cash and I are committed to stamping out public corruption and the political weaponization of both law enforcement and intelligence operations. It's a priority for us. But what I have learned in the course of our properly predicated and necessary investigations into these aforementioned matters has shocked me down to my core. We cannot run a republic like this. I'll never be the same after learning what I've learned. We're gonna conduct investigations by the book. We're gonna get the answers we all deserve. All caps. As with any investigation, I cannot predict where it will land. But we'll get the truth. I'll never be the same after learning what I've learned. It shocked me to the core. It could all be bluster. But again, this is the Deputy FBI director. It's not like some random spokesperson. So maybe he's not talking about Epstein. Maybe he's trying to obliquely allude to Obama or some other thing. Who the hell. But this puts him in the same boat. Like, you can't say, oh, let's move on from whatever this is. It's like if you've seen things that are so shocking, you'll never be the same, that you've gotta. There's gotta be a payoff at some point, right?

[Bill Kristol]

I mean, I sort of assumed when I read that that he thinks he's referring to Obama and Russia and the Tulsi Gabbard stuff and all this. He's never seen such corruption by the deep state.

[Tim Miller]

But why not just say that then?

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, why not say it? And he leaves it ambiguous. And this line about these f. These files are totally corrupted. And you know, it's, it's who knows what Brennan and Comey and everyone put in them. I mean, that's asking for trouble also because there are a lot of people at the FBI who, whatever their personal views about politics and so forth, probably don't like the idea that they went through these files or back in the day they were involved in investigations that are totally fake and hoax and, and politically driven. I mean, the FBI did actually investigate, you know, Epstein and then Maxwell and, and indicted both Department of Diet, both of them. So he's trashing. He's now picking a fight with, you know, sort of hundreds of agents and.

[Tim Miller]

I don't know, so submitted that Benjino is supposed to manage. A lot of agents are being run out. David Frum did a good podcast with Peter Strzok I'd recommend from last week. And you know, I spoke to Mike Feinberg about this. I think that the under the surface amount of people bailing on the FBI over this, I don't know that it's really sunk in with people like that. Like they're really losing folks at a pretty serious rate. I was talking to somebody else who does kind of crime research about this yesterday. It's always nice to have a bottle of wine around the house. But if you're like me, if you're not a huge wine drinker, sometimes you don't have the time or the thought to run down to the store and have a couple bottles around the house. Well, our sponsor has a solution for that. It's Naked Wines. This podcast is sponsored by Naked Wines. Naked is a wine club that directly connects you to the world's best independent winemakers. So you can get a world class wine delivered straight to your door. Use our code thebullwerk for the code and [e-mail] and get six bottles for just $39.99. How do they do it? They bring you amazing wine straight from the winery at up to 60% less than you would pay in store. By cutting out extra costs, like middlemen markups, winemakers can pass those savings on to you without skimping on quality. I just like having the diversity of options, different kinds of crepes, you know, with the naked wines, have a, have a dry white, have A little fruitier white, have a couple reds sitting around. Just nice to have stuff around the house. You don't know who's going to stop by. I don't know how things are in your neck of the woods. New Orleans people are people stopping by the house from time to time, and you know, you want to give them something to drink. And so Naked Wines is a nice solution to ensure we're always loaded up with different varietals, different types. It's been a sponsor I've been happy to avail myself of. Now is the time to join the Naked Wines community. Head to nakedwines.com the Bulwark Click Enter voucher and put in my code the Bulwark for both the code and password for six bottles of wine for just $39.99 with shipping included. That's 100 bucks off your first six bottles at nakedwines.com thebullwerk and use the code and password the bulwark for six bottles of wine for 39.99 on the Democrats on Epstein. I didn't plan to do another 25 minutes on Epstein, but until Alex Acosta comes on this podcast, we're gonna have no choice but to do that. Writes about the plans for this long recess and whether this is a usable issue. What do you think about this? I think at some level, this is like more of a getting people disillusioned with Republicans issue than it is something that the Democrats can really effectively rally around. But maybe that's wrong. What do you think?

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, no, I've been sort of. I can argue that one either way. I was saying to another friend last week, Democrats have been a little lame on this. And he said, I don't know, maybe it's better if they just stay out of it. Honestly. I mean, if you have impartial reporters and women like Stacey Williams especially speaking up, isn't that better than making it.

[Tim Miller]

Just a normal and regular people going to town halls, you know, to pressure Republicans about this is better. It's funny to watch the progression. Like, I had Chris Murphy on, what, last Tuesday, and he's pretty good on this, but you can kind of tell that, like, he hadn't thought that deeply about, like, all the various, like, layers and talking points and. And, you know, and Murphy's out there on a million issues. Like, he's really good on the crypto thing, right? This is just natural. Right. And then I watched him talk about it again, like, Thursday or Friday, and, you know, he'd ratchet it up, the rhetoric and Part of that is because of the news that had come out during the week. Right. But moving it into full cover up mode. And you do see that a little bit from Democrats, but you're right, maybe that's not even the most useful thing.

[Bill Kristol]

I don't know how important it is that Ro Khanna and Tom Messi are on TV together. But it's not nothing. And Khanna is a pretty shrewd about this stuff sometimes I think, I think the key is for the Democrats not to, to go around giving pompous speeches as Democratic members of Congress or as Democratic challengers, but letting citizens speak up, you know what I mean? They need to sort of behind the scenes, the associated super pacs and so forth have to get people to go to these meetings if there are Republican town halls or if not go to Democratic town halls. But let's have people in the audience speak up, not the members of Congress.

[Tim Miller]

There's a Wall Street Journal poll over the weekend that had, I think warning shots, described it as the democrats in shambles. 33% approving of the party, 63% disapproving. Their worst showing since 1990. Back in your day. That's really your heyday right there.

[Bill Kristol]

I was on the Republican side, so I was happy about it.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, that's what I mean. You were driving them down. It was Bill Kristol's machinations behind the scene.

[Bill Kristol]

It was so effective that Bill Clinton won the presidency two years later. Which probably tells you something about these kinds of polls. But anyway, yeah, it's a great point.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. CNN had a poll that showed Dems, despite being very upset with their party, having way more enthusiasm at this point to vote in the midterms. Which makes sense that I just think what we're learning basically from these polls is that Dem voters just don't think that the party is up for what they need to be up for when it comes to Trump. Independent voters still feel like Democrats a little bit out of touch and yet they're also very excited to have a check on Donald Trump at some level. So it might not actually matter, at least in the short term. Politically. I don't know. What do you make of that?

[Bill Kristol]

Totally, totally agree. Some of those, that dissatisfaction with the party comes from Democrats who are dissatisfied that the party's not being more aggressive. They're not going to vote for Trump. Republicans however, and they're probably going to vote to check Trump. What this shows is Democrats, I don't know that they have a big 2026 problem and they may have Other problems, but I don't think this shows a 2026 problem. That'll be a referendum on Trump. They have a 2028 challenge. Let's say they're not a party that's really in great shape that happened to lose one election and just ready to roar to the presidency. They need good candidates and they need to generally have a bit of have something of an overhaul by 27, 28.

[Tim Miller]

Kind of related to this. So there are two Senate announcements over the weekend. Roy Cooper, the governor of North Carolina, former governor, Democrat, is going to run for that Senate seat, it looks like, against the chairman of the rnc, Michael Watley. It sounds like Lara pass on that race, which is unfortunate for content's sake if not for the country. Dan Osborne was the independent that ran in Nebraska against Deb Fiser, did pretty well. I kind of had forgotten how close it was, so I pulled it up this morning. Deb Fisher was at 53 and Dan Osborne at 46 in a Trump election year and in a 2024 general election instead of in a midterm election. So I think that, that. But Augur said that's at least possible as a seat for it now he would be an independent to pick up. So I don't know. Both of those guys are kind of not in the traditional mold for Democrats. I mean, Roy Cooper's kind of in an old school traditional mold of a Southern Democrat that doesn't really exist anymore. What do you think about those announcements?

[Bill Kristol]

I like Cooper and I just worry that there's quite a lot of history, these ex governors turning around to run for the Senate. They genuinely were popular governors. They have to run for the Senate. It's a federal race. It's who you're going to vote for for majority leader, who you do you agree with the most radical member of the Democratic Conference in the Senate. And suddenly these popular governors lose. Right. That happened in Tennessee, didn't it, a few years ago? And other states we've seen it happen, sort of. So I worry about that. But look, he should be a strong candidate and he knows Medicaid extremely well. He expanded it in North Carolina. And so that that's going to be a big issue in 2026. He could really discuss it intelligently. Yeah, it's hard to tell how much loyalty there is to them down there. But I think some, yeah, I think Osborne's good. They just need a lot of different candidates. I think Cooper cuts against this because he's unusually popular and skilled. I think as a politician generally, I prefer to see non politicians or non career politicians or people with different backgrounds, I'm just going to put it that way, running, but I think that you could have a wave. I mean, Paul Begala and I, the Democrat run, I was on something with him and he said he thought that intensity number mattered. He thought that in other cycles that's really shown something. If Democratic voters Want to vote 20 points more or care a lot about it by 20 point margin over Republican voters, that probably translates into something in an off year election.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Just one quick thing on both guys, the Cooper video. This is kind of a silly thing, but you know, when somebody is obviously being recruited into the race that maybe doesn't want this job, a center, that's another thing you've seen in these governors races. People feel like they have to get in and you know, they're not that excited. Just figure skating. Judging his opening video, he looked like a person that had energy and was excited for the race. And whether that's true, I don't know. I haven't talked to Roy Cooper, but you can sniff it sometimes. I've seen some introduction videos of I don't know. My mind goes to Fred Thompson's presidential race where it's like this person doesn't seem like their hardest in it. I didn't get that from Cooper. So that's good. On Osborne, I just pulled this up. So Trump won Nebraska by 20 and Fisher beat Osborne by seven. So he ran 13 points on net ahead of the party. That's not nothing. That is very rare. And you've seen on some of the stuff, you've seen these things where candidates and Senate races in particular end up falling back to the mean. You saw, it's like Larry Hogan and somebody say, well, you think that they'll be better and then it turns out that they kind of run just very slightly better than a generic Repub or Democrat. That wasn't the case for him. So I think that's notable. I'm going to try to get him on the pod. I think that's a very interesting race for everybody to monitor. Going back to some actual policy stuff from Trump over the weekend. And this morning we have an EU tariff deal, if you want to call it that. There's a European economist I follow who described it this way. What was unthinkable a year ago is now the new baseline. I think that's important to say. A lot of the mainstream coverage of this is like, oh, they got a deal and it's 15, it's only 15% tariff with carve outs, of course, for some things, of Trump buddies and semiconductor equipment. A couple other things. I do think that there's been a little bit of a frog boiling in water on all this sort of stuff. Like had you gone to people in October and been like, we're going to have a 15% across the board tariff on Europe, I think everybody, like, that's crazy. That's far more than anything that we've had in recent times. And yet because of how radical Trump's initial proposals were, and I think because the market has been relatively resilient, more than relatively resilient, really, people are just becoming a little sanguine about it. I don't know. What do you think?

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, and I think the markets think by cutting deals, these tariffs will be lower than they look like they're going to be because they'll be kind of carve outs and maybe that's right. Look, we're a huge economy, trades only 12, 13% or something like that of GDP. We can, you know, swallow some of this and take it, so to speak. Stan Voiker, our friend, the AEI economist, pointed out to me, we were talking about this Thursday, Friday, I was sort of single. Shouldn't the terrorists be having word effect? He said, you know, they are having a considerable effect. I think we'll get Wednesday, second quarter GDP numbers, preliminary numbers on Wednesday. So that will be interesting. First quarter was mildly slightly negative. Second quarter, they think maybe two point something. So that would average out to one and a half. Let's just say we were growing 3% when Biden left and that was the prognosis for 2025. People didn't think it was going to slow. So I think we are. One percentage point isn't the Great Depression. It's not dramatic. It's a big difference, though, if you go 2% to 3% in the real world. I mean, I kind of assume we end up paying more of a price for this than the markets now think. But obviously I could easily be wrong. The other point is, I mean, prices are going up on some items, though a little more than mainstream world than somehow the world is. Given that Biden paid such a huge price for 7, 8, 9% inflation in 2022. I believe Chris Tourax has this little piece I think we'll have in morning shots tomorrow. I think beef prices are up, I don't know, more than 9% and hamburger steak and all this just in the last six months in Trump's presidency. One reason for that, I believe, is that some like Insanely high percentage of the ground meat in the US Is imported from Brazil. It turns out. I was not aware of this. And we have big tariffs on Brazil because he doesn't like the fact that Bolsonaro is being tried. So I don't know. We're paying more for hamburgers and steak because Trump has this loves his fellow autocrat there in Brazil who tried to steal an election and is being tried according to the laws of Brazil. I feel like some of that stuff has more potential oomph than people realize.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. And it's narrow. And the across the board kind of shock of the 8% or whatever it was during 2022, I think, like, real. Because people are just getting hit all over the place in their life versus this is like certain. Just certain products. I don't know. One of my. I don't know how many people are ordering sweaters from Europe, but one of my buddies did forward me an email about a shocking tariff price that he received. You know, do people actually vote on that or change their vote just because they ordered one thing and they. They're like, oh, oh, fuck. I had to pay 40 bucks on this that I didn't realize I had to pay something that I was ordering online. But maybe, I don't know, we're not really seeing it at this point. But that is. That. That is annoying. If it starts to happen a lot, I guess maybe one of those things, you're like, whatever. But if it starts to happen frequently, I do think that it could have an impact.

[Bill Kristol]

That's funny. I heard a similar story about that someone who, I guess if you order online, it's not like you buy something at a store and the store has already paid the tariff and marked up your item. So you can notice that your sweater's more expensive at whatever store you're going to. But it's, you know, literally pay the tariff yourself, whereas I guess you do online. It's just. It says, you know, an extra. This case was like an extra $75 for the tariff for something from. So, yeah, that could add up a little bit, don't you?

[Tim Miller]

I think, God willing. What the hell do I know? I'm just a podcast host. I want to talk a little bit more about kind of the issues in Gaza and the hunger and the pictures that we've been seeing from there that are pretty striking. Tomorrow with our guest who wrote about this recently. This is another just massive issue for Trump. And in a weird way, it kind of, in a way that's a little awkward to talk about frankly, it kind of intersects somewhat with the Epstein story because there is this populist right and left kind of anti Israel that sometimes bleeds into anti Semitism feeling. And like that is like part of the Epstein controversy for some people. And then some of them are very upset about what's happening in Israel. I mean, we talk about how the bro podcasters are mad at him about the Epstein thing. Most of those guys have, have spoken out on Gaza as well too. Right. So in a way that's a little bit uncomfortable, there is kind of an overlap between the stories and Trump is not in a good place in this. So here's Trump this morning on this. There's so much to talk about with this quote. Begins with a JD Vance comment about what is happening to the people in Gaza. We gave Gaza 60 million. Nobody even said thank you. Somebody should have said thank you. And then there's a follow up question from reporter Netanyahu said there's no starvation in Gaza. Do you agree with that assessment, Trump? I don't know. I mean based on television, I would say not particularly, because those children look very hungry. Lot to talk about there. But I don't know. What do you make of all that?

[Bill Kristol]

I mean it's a good example. I don't know what to make of it. He's again, we'll see what he does, if he does do anything. It's been unclear how what the administration thinks and what the administration's policy is. Trump's watching tv, I guess he doesn't have access to any intelligence reports or what's really happening there. He doesn't have access to actual proposals of what we could and couldn't do, what we could do with other international agencies. This is one reason you sort of want to be, I would say just from a political point of view, leaving aside what's happening in Gaza, what really, really could and should be done, which I think is slightly complicated, but I think it's bad. I'm just saying that. And Israel has not behaved well in this circumstance and has some real responsibility and accountability. I mean, Biden got beat up from all sides, right? He pulled the Israel back. At times the pro Israel people didn't like him. He let Israel do things at times. Obviously the pro Palestinian people were annoyed at him. So you could say he picked out the best of both worlds. Maybe Trump's smart to just kind of keep it weirdly at a distance. But the other thing, one reason you want to be part of international organizations is you are doing things in consort with other nations and you can say, look, we've all decided that we're going to get this stuff in this food in, in this way. We're working very closely with all of our partners, whereas Trump is. Mr. You know, it's all about America. We just do whatever we want on our own. We don't, we hate all these international organizations. We pulled out of half of them for I don't know, are we still in some of the food organizations and we're not in the health organization? I don't think so. It's sort of okay. Are you doing anything or not? Now I suppose from an America first point of view, not our problem. Right. Starvation happens in the world, It's a tough world out there. It happens in Africa, it happens in Gaza. And we're not in the business of being humanitarian, you know, goody goodies. But that's hard to sustain I think for an American president, even an alleged American first president. And so yeah, I don't know quite where it goes for him but the watching TV is a pretty astonishing line. Right? I mean he's also in the uk. Well he's in Scotland but he's was in the US part of the UK I guess last I looked.

[Tim Miller]

We're gonna get in trouble with some British written worst or something.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, but Starmer's gonna have to raise it at the meeting. Maybe they haven't, I think they haven't quite met yet and you know, it's more of an issue there honestly there they've had big demonstrations and stuff. So the watching tv, that's really unbelievable in a way. I hadn't focused on that until you mentioned it.

[Tim Miller]

US President it's just like it's idiocracy. Like I'm getting that he's getting his news from cable tv. He's like an old man that's just watching, watching his stories on TV and reacting rather than a president who has real accountability and responsibility here, especially given how closely he's tied himself to Netanyahu. It is one of those things they had any option to your point about from the American first perspective. And I think a decent number of people that voted for Trump thought this was what was going to happen. Maybe that was wrong headed but Trump's weird jello policy pronouncements on the Middle east made the pro Israel people feel like he was on their side and the right populace that want us to leave the region thought he was on their side. So I guess kudos to him for that political maneuver. But there's a decent chunk of people voted for him that thought that Trump was just going to kind of be like Homer Simpson going back into the bushes on the Middle east and just kind of like, you all do whatever you want. That's not really our game. I'll do economic deals with the Sharia oil oligarchs and Saudi and Qatar, getting planes out of the deal, that sort of thing. That's not what he's done. And he's worked very closely with Israel on various things. And so now just to be like, well, I'm watching tv, it doesn't really work as a whole, policy wise. All right, well, the one positive, maybe Trump development. I want to close on something positive. How's that? Does that sound nice?

[Bill Kristol]

No, it's bad. That's bad. But go ahead.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, it's bad. It's positive. Both in the sense that Trump is being humiliated in this press conference with regards to his past comments on Putin. So that's positive. And it's positive in that he seems to be slightly continuing to move his policy. Slowly but surely, he said this Putin goes out and starts launching rockets into some city like Kyiv and kills a lot of people in nursing homes or whatever. I'm disappointed in Putin. I'm going to reduce that 50 days that I gave him to a lesser number. I'm going to make a new deadline of 10 or 12 days from today, about two weeks. We just don't see any progress being made. Any green shoot there for you, Bill Kristol?

[Bill Kristol]

I mean, it's better for the world and for the country and for Ukraine that Trump is ambivalent or uncertain about Putin, that He's, if he's 100% with him, just as a practical matter, increases perhaps the chances of that. More aid for Ukraine, maybe for the sanctions bill, which I still notice hasn't been passed, and Trump still doesn't seem to quite be four, even though he keeps talking about it. So, on the other hand, I mean, look, the best he's been president for three and a half years, it's going to be bad. It's going to be bad for the country and bad for the world. The best we can hope for, honestly, is inconstancy, you know, lack of really throwing in with the bad guys and sort of only being with the bad guys one third or one half the time and sometimes fearing against the bad guys because he gets annoyed at them and being sort of for the good guys and mostly not really doing as much damage as he might otherwise do. I guess we just have to, we do have to hope for that. It's for the sake of people around the world, obviously. It's a weird thing, I've got to say, psychologically. I've never had this experience with an American president. I mean, there have been presidents I, I disagreed with a lot. You know, Obama's foreign policy at different times and stuff. But then you sort of, okay, I hope he changes his policy, or I hope Congress pressures him to change his policy, or I hope reality shows him that this policy was terrible, or minimally, we could all agree that, I don't know, not enforcing the red line was terrible and the next president won't do it. You know, you sort of have a way of handling a president you disagree with here. One ends up rooting for a kind of less bad outcomes over the next three and a half years. And so I hope we act so that fewer people starve in Gaza. And I hope we act in ways that increase the chances of peace. But I don't know, it's hard.

[Tim Miller]

On the other hand, you would like him to utterly fail. I can give you Catholic dispensation on this. Doesn't matter what you're rooting for.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, it doesn't matter what I'm saying, but I mean, in this case, obviously, just waiting.

[Tim Miller]

It matters what you're saying, but it doesn't matter what I'm saying.

[Bill Kristol]

No, it doesn't matter what my saying.

[Tim Miller]

You know what I mean? You being unhappy that Donald Trump is, is doing something good, it does not matter actually to the grand scheme of things. So you can embrace that.

[Bill Kristol]

I'm not entirely, mostly unhappy even, but I would say. But just in terms of thinking about it, in the first term, one also in the first term of Trump, one could think, okay, I hope Mattis prevails on this. Sure, I hope Pompeo, who I don't love, but whatever, I hope he prevails on that. Now you don't even have that right. It is a weird, it's a weird thing to follow. But the more he's got a bunch of ridiculous sycophants working for him, the more it's all on him. I do think that's true. Like on this one, maybe you would take the position of, you know what, this is very complicated. The administration's working on it. Our guy who's got the lead on this is, I don't know, Rubio or some Deputy Secretary of State or some National Security Council number three guy. Doesn't have to be the number one guy, but someone. Right? And that gives you a little deflection it's all on Trump because it's all in his head. Right.

[Tim Miller]

Well, the one thing that just comes right, I'm trying to get a. I have an America first kind of foreign policy guest in mind. I want to kind of hash out a few things with. Because they're a little disappointed with Trump in various ways, it does betray just how bankrupt and how hard to execute that is. It sounds nice. We're only going to care about ourselves. But just listening to Trump tie himself into knots on the Middle east and on Russia, I don't know, we can maybe take some solace. And that being revealed to be a very shallow ideology, that's hard to execute. All right, Bill Kristol, that was wonderful, everybody. If you missed it on Friday, do stick around for Stacey Williams. But if you caught that already, if you're just kind of a bulwark sicko listening to everything, as soon as we post it, you can come on back tomorrow. We got a great guest coming up. We'll see you all then. Thanks, Bill.

[Bill Kristol]

Thanks, dude.

[Tim Miller]

Bye, everybody. Peace. Hey, everybody. Tim Miller from the Bulwark here. And I'm grateful to be here with Stacy Williams, who last October, I guess, spoke out about an incident with Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump at the Trump Hotel many years ago that I bet you wish you weren't talking about. Still something that happened back in the 1990s. But I appreciate your courage in speaking out and coming here to talk about it a little bit.

[Stacey Williams]

Thanks. Yeah, it's not a lot of fun, contrary to what some folks say. But like I said, it's really important. And I think also when I saw that Virginia died by suicide a few weeks ago, I thought, oh, you know, I can't just sit back.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. For people who don't know Virginia was one of the Epstein accusers, it almost feels victims, I guess, would be a much more accurate term. And, and I mean, maybe the most horrific of all of them, I guess, maybe not. That's hard to, you know, want to compare. But her story was just particularly tragic.

[Stacey Williams]

Yeah, it was horrendous. Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Well, for people who don't know and aren't familiar, let's just kind of contextualize what was happening here. And then I want to talk in particular mostly to you about kind of what victims and what other women in your shoes want out of this discussion about what, what the government should be doing with regards to Epstein. But to contextualize it, you are your swimsuit model in the 90s, is that right?

[Stacey Williams]

I think people call me that. Because I did the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue for like eight years and it was like some kind of record at the time, but I did El Vogue, Runway, everything. I lived in Paris, in New York.

[Tim Miller]

That's an important record. Yeah, I guess I pretended as a closeted gay. I pretended to like this swimsuit edition. I'd get it and sit around for a little while and I'd have it out in case nobody had any questions. But I didn't really linger. So I don't recall your eight year run.

[Stacey Williams]

Well, you know what's funny is that I've met men over the years. I mean, I guess we're of the. If we're gen, I'm gen X. So, you know, there are men who, I think who are Xers who couldn't come out. And so many of them told me that I was their beard. And I'm so truly, like, deeply honored. They had posters, everything.

[Tim Miller]

So that's great. That was.

[Stacey Williams]

It's always been a great alliance.

[Tim Miller]

That was Natalie Portman for me. Thank you, Natalie. Anyway, Stacy, the.

[Stacey Williams]

How dare you.

[Tim Miller]

Sorry, you know, different Elder Malaysia. So during that period, I guess you had a brief period where you're dating Jeffrey. How did that even come to pass? And how long was it? And what was just sort of the circumstance?

[Stacey Williams]

So I was introduced to Jeffrey by my agent at the time, Faith Cates, who owns Next Models.

[Tim Miller]

Thanks for nothing, Kate.

[Stacey Williams]

Faith, you know, all those agencies, they hosted a lot of dinners with models and powerful men. And so she got, you know, it was a night she said, let's, you know, we're getting a group together for dinner on the Upper east side. And I went and Jeffrey was there. And the interesting thing about Jeffrey, which is so funny, be like, well, you know, he's such a creep. Obviously, he's like the most renowned, you know, scumbag on the planet. But at the time, he was one of the few men who just looked me in the eye and had a political conversation with me and didn't condescend. And I think that's why, you know, I got interested in him and why, you know, we engaged and it went from there and then and kind of forgot about it, though. Didn't exchange numbers or anything. And a couple months later, Donald Trump had, you know, he owned the Plaza at one point, the hotel, and he was throwing a Christmas party at the Plaza. And again, Faith said, you know, I think we had like three parties that night, and we were just being festive and having fun, getting dressed up for reasons other than being photographed and Enjoying the season. And we went to the Plaza and, you know, Donald was there and he walked me over. He's like, you know, Jeffrey, right? And, yeah, so that's. Then at that moment, we talked longer and I gave him my number and we dated after that for a few months. You know, I was traveling, I was very busy. And so it wasn't like, you know, we're seeing each other seriously for months. I mean, it was a period of four months and I was traveling and it took a while to, for all the little data points to line up about how utterly batshit crazy everything was. And then I was. And then I was out, you know, then I was like, yeah, I, I'm done. This is insane.

[Tim Miller]

The incident in question that you kind of spoke about last time was, I guess during that three to four month period, Jeffrey took you to Trump's office. And this particularly noteworthy because it's a similar story to what Maria Farmer told to the FBI in 1996. So that would be. Then two years later, three years later, she's underage at the time, so even creepier and worse in a lot of ways. But it's interesting, it's sort of a corroborating type thing because it's very similar, I guess, that he went by his office at Trump Tower. So, I don't know. Talk about that.

[Stacey Williams]

Yeah, we were taking a walk. We met at. He was living in a brownstone on the Upper east side. I don't think it's the same one that got raided. I don't know. But it was a very large, very fancy brownstone with butlers and multiple floors and everything. And that's where we would meet, and then we would take walks and we were walking down Fifth Avenue one day and he said, and I'd already met Donald a couple of times over the years, and he's like, oh, yeah, Donald keeps talking about you and let's stop by and say hi. And then that's when the incident happened. We went up and he groped me, and Jeffrey and Donald kept talking while he groped me, and I froze. I was in shock. And then Jeffrey got angry and berated me for allowing him to do it afterwards. And it's a laugh because it's so insane. Sorry. And, yeah, and then, and it was not long after that that I, you know, I said, I can't, I can't do this. In fact, I, I very, I said to him, I said, you need, you need to see a psychiatrist. Something's seriously wrong with you.

[Tim Miller]

He got angry at you. I, to me, and again, who the hell knows was people how to get inside the brains of somebody as sick as him. But like, it does feel like again, the other data point of where he brought, brought Farmer there a couple years later and then she ends up bringing that up to the FBI and like the fact that he wasn't mad at Trump and that they continued to have a relationship. Right, and then he's mad at you kind of indicates that there's some kind of. I don't know whether it was a game or some kind of whatever. I don't know.

[Stacey Williams]

It felt like it. Yeah, it felt like it. I mean, I had detailed to Jeffrey that I had a bit of a reputation in the industry for being combative in the industry with the predators that were in the industry as well as the guys on the streets. And I mean, I have friends who've reached out to me and said, remember that time you like beat the shit out of that guy in Paris and maced him or whatever. It's like I was in full combat mode in those days. And I had told that, that to Jeffrey. I remember telling him that it was on my mind a lot because, you know, I was living in a war zone. It was such a wild west, you know, back then, like 13 year olds modeling. You know, there's like, you know now, now you get booked for a job, you're 13 years old and there's like a tutor on set and there's you know, all kinds of oversight. It was truly the wild west, so, so we were really unprotected. And so he knew that I would download. I downloaded that to him. And so I think he, and I could be wrong, but I think he was so angry because I was walked in. I think he told Donald that, you know, I was one person who wasn't going to let him get away with the handsy stuff. And, and I did because, because of the way, you know, like I, I said it. Everything he does is hidden in its brazenness. Right? So if I'd been in a dark alley and I had been in the past or a subway or something where someone's grabbing me or being inappropriate, I fight back, I get out the mace or whatever and I had some self defense classes, but, but you know, in broad daylight with an assistant going back and forth, you're like, this can't be happening. I mean it's somewhat Kitty Genovese esque, right? Which is. Yeah, it's relevant to that where like as long as everyone looks around and the room's Filling with smoke. And it's like, well, no, there's not. You know, no one's moving, so everything must be okay. It's akin to that. So I froze. And so that's why it felt like it was very much an arranged kind of situation. And why Jeffrey got mad, who knows what, you know, whether it was a bet and he lost money, I have no idea. I. I don't know.

[Tim Miller]

Hidden in his brazenness is. It's very well put. I mean, it's like, I know it's his political strategy about a lot of his law. It's everything but like. Yeah, but also just like the Access Hollywood tape. And he admitted he tells you what the strategy and he says, I just, you know, gravel. The interesting thing with the. On the Trump side of it is just that, like, it just. Who knows if it's a game, whatever, but it shows a comfort and like a. Some. A Some kind of, you know, kind of friendship bromance. Right. Where they. Where this kind of stuff happens. Right. And that for Jeffrey to mad at you shows that in their relationship that type of behavior is accepted and common.

[Stacey Williams]

Yeah. They were not mere acquaintances.

[Tim Miller]

So to the Jeffrey side of it, all this stuff gets wrapped up in the politics. Right. And particularly now. And it's like, why do people want to see. It so sucks. Why do people want to see this? It's like, not because they care. That's because they want accountability for the criminals. Because there are other criminals besides Jeffrey Epstein and Gillian Maxwell here, other perpetrators and collaborators. So at some level, some people wanted that, but then it sort of gets warped and molded into, well, we want to see X that might hurt. So and so. And we want to see. So from your perspective, what do you want to see? Right? Like, what would be the value of this? Like, what would be useful? Useful.

[Stacey Williams]

So one of the things that's been sort of nagging is that there was a point and this was kind of like the very end for me when I stopped dating Jeffrey, when he looked at me and said, I have video of you undressing in a bedroom in the brownstone. And it was something along the lines of, it's the most beautiful thing I own, or it's the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. And that just, you know, that was when there were, I mean, being groped, you know, being led into Donald's office, be groped by him was. Was bad enough, and I probably was young enough and confused enough where maybe I was still questioning. But when he said to me, I have video of you undressed in a bedroom in my house. And it's my. I was. I. I just. It was so creepy and so dark, and so, you know, I've wondered ever since, where is that video? Was he lying? Does it exist? I know everyone's very focused on lists, right? You know, where are the lists? But my question is, you know, what's in all those files that the government has, the DOJ has, and, you know, is there video of me? I'd like to know if it exists. I think I speak for all the other, you know, victims who have come forward and wonder if there's video of them. I think we'd like to know. Absolutely. There's no video, or there is, and this is where it is. You know, we just want more answers to have that just floating out there. And then when I saw Alan Dershowitz's piece about how. No, no, no, there were just, you know, videos for security reasons, I thought, well, that completely flies in the face of what Jeffrey said to me. That doesn't line up. So I have a lot of questions. And I'm sure, you know, the other. The other victims, too. So I do believe that the government owes all of us some facts and confirmation that videos exist. I mean, I certainly wouldn't want any victims exposed if there's video of them being abused. But we need to get beyond the list, I think, and we need to hear about those videos. I want to know.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, for closure purposes. Just like, you know, and.

[Stacey Williams]

Yes, yes. Well, I mean, like, you know, there were. There are these, you know, horrible acts perpetrated on women and girls. The government's interviewing the trafficker. I'm like, the government is interviewing a trafficker.

[Tim Miller]

Maybe cutting a deal.

[Stacey Williams]

Maybe cutting a deal. Who knows? But, you know, I think, like, there is nothing transparent. Transparent about this, and we'd like some more transparency as victims, and the government owes us that. What is the Department of Justice for? The word justice means you don't interview the trafficker. You interview the victims. Right. Or be honest with the victims.

[Tim Miller]

Justice for the people. Not for Donald Trump. Right. Top Blanche isn't his personal lawyer, and.

[Stacey Williams]

Pedophiles are people who are doing terrible things to women and girls. Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

On the videos. Just one more kind of point about the. This, because something I've been thinking about lately is that you mentioned that the Dershowitz's explanation is it's security footage. Right. Well, Vance, it's a private conversation. So some Amaga podcaster said this, but he said they had dinner together. There's no reason to believe he'd be making this up. And he said that he asked Vance about the videos, and advance says that it's commercial porn, that they don't have actually private, secret videos. And it's like, okay, I. I don't. Who the hell knows? I don't. I don't know. And that seems extremely unlikely that Jeffrey Epstein, who is committing hundreds of sex crimes and had lots of video cameras in his house, wanted commercial porn instead. But like, who the hell knows with this guy? But, you know, it shows that they're telling all these different stories and there's no like, transparency about what the. What the truth is with either the public or the victim. Victims.

[Stacey Williams]

Yeah, yeah, it's awful. I agree. And there are a lot of victims. Right? I mean, I don't understand it. And as for the Vance quote, I mean, I. It wouldn't surprise me if there was. If he had everything, you know, he had a collection of everything. We just want answers. There's no transparency. There's none. And again, to go to think that you're going to clear all this up by interviewing the trafficker, the convicted trafficker. That's the solution. Are you kidding me? You have to laugh at this.

[Tim Miller]

Just before we sat down, she said that she's given them information on a hundred people. And I don't know, you know, okay, there certainly are a lot more collaborators out there and co conspirators. But like, I would think. Yeah, but what would be the deal? Like, but there can't be any deal for Ghislaine Maxwell. I mean, this was the person that was the ringleader of all of it. So that's not justice, one would think.

[Stacey Williams]

But you know, we are so far past. I mean, like truth. We're so post truth and everything is so, you know, we're in the Upside down. So I mean, nothing would surprise me, but that would be truly horrific. I can't imagine anyone could stomach her getting out. But, you know, we'll see. All of us still need transparency. And if there are videos, you know, as per what Jeffrey said to me, I want to know.

[Tim Miller]

There's two other random things that come around. Just curious. So like, you, you came out, you talked about this, I guess the first last year before the election, was it?

[Stacey Williams]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, at that point you could have just wanted to move on with your life. And what, Was there something in particular that. That prompted it or that made you feel like you needed to say something?

[Stacey Williams]

Yeah, the possibility of him winning. I don't want the guy who sexually assaulted me in the White House. And I know that, you know, his. His campaign tried to spin it as, you know, oh, you know, a week or so before the election. And, you know, just to be how that happened. I am in a documentary that is out on the festival circuit right now about the woman who founded the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue and how she. It's actually a feminist story, believe it or not. It's a fantastic film. It's called beyond the Gays. About how she was treated as the first female editor at Sports Illustrated. And that old boys club and how many glass ceilings she broke. And then when she had literally saved the magazine, she went to her boss and asked for a raise. Cause she couldn't afford childcare. And he said, you have a husband, you don't need a raise.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, my God.

[Stacey Williams]

And she, you know, at one point, that was when I was doing it. I did it, I guess, eight years in a row. That was the most. At the time, that was the most lucrative brand in publishing history. I think it was the first time anyone could charge $2 million per advertising page. It was at its peak. Right.

[Tim Miller]

Wow.

[Stacey Williams]

So that's the story of the documentary. So I got to know this crew that, you know, I shot with them constantly and we had a conversation and it was the first time I felt comfortable enough to disclose what had happened. And then it took two years to edit. It was only supposed to take a year, but that's how, you know, filmmaking goes. And cut to the premiere is a week before the election. And I had to let lawyers know and everything I said, look, this is coming out. They left this in where I say what did. And we're. A week before the election.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, it's in the dock.

[Stacey Williams]

It's in the dock. And that's the first time I ever publicly disclosed. That's how I ended up doing all the media and everything right before the election. Because I thought to have it out there hanging without any context a week before the election. I need to get a handle on that. This and, and, and talk to people and everything. So. So that's how that happened. But then, you know, the timing of it looked to the conspiracy conspiracies minded. Looked like it was set up to happen right before the election or something. So, yeah, that's. That's how I decided. You know, people had urged me to do it for years. They said at the very least. And I have other friends who are vic. Who are victims and who haven't come forward and some who have. And we all talk about Victims of.

[Tim Miller]

Trump or other people.

[Stacey Williams]

Other. Other people in the industry. A lot of them are out there, very public about it. Some aren't and know so many have come forward since. Me too. And I have always been uncomfortable about doing. I chose to become anonymous and disappear and go into a different space. Once I was done with my modeling career, I didn't. I turned down reality and television movies and all that stuff and went, you.

[Tim Miller]

Were in Jerry McMillan.

[Stacey Williams]

Underground became a low. I became a low level Gray Davis appointee when I was 26 and like I had a totally different head start volunteer completely different path in life. And so. And I love my private, quiet, you know, as my friends call it, your old spinster like life.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Stacey Williams]

But I decided it was time. I felt comfortable enough and then I let him. And then it just blew up. And then I realized that it was really important for me to do so crazy.

[Tim Miller]

I know. I feel bad for all of you and I talked to Gene about this and other victims. But going back to 2016, right, there were a bunch of folks that came out after Access Hollywood. And it's like to come out like that then have. It isn't. But I could see how it might feel like it's like the American people are like rendering a judgment on your story. Like we don't care, basically, you know.

[Stacey Williams]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

And that's so tough, I think I just can't imagine.

[Stacey Williams]

Oh, it's really tough. I mean, I had actual family members who were qanonors because I'm from rural pa, remember, So I had actual family members yell at me and call me bitter. And it's. It's been brutal. I mean, it's just this country's been savaged. It's just. It doesn't look like there's any end in sight. And it's deeply personal for all of us who, you know, know, went through it.

[Tim Miller]

So I appreciate you coming out. I would be remiss if I didn't just ask you because that's just curiosity killed the cat and I'm. I can't. How do you think he had all that money, Jeffrey? And you're with him for three or four months, but do you have any. Did he. Did he talk to you about that? Do you have any theories of the case, like where his money came from?

[Stacey Williams]

It was always so vague, you know, it was like I never asked him directly. I mean, look, I was around Saudi Prince, you know, I mean, the accent, the access that you have as a young teenager because you're. This biological accident is absurd. When you think about it, right, Like, I'm in the back rooms with politicians and billionaires and Saudi princes and everything simply because my parents had sex one night. It's so ridiculous. And so it was the norm that I'd be around wealthy, powerful men. His was always a lot more confusing because that, you know, that was a lot of wealth. And I still don't understand it. I don't. That's another thing would be nice. I think Senator. The senator from Oregon is looking into. Yeah. And I also say that, you know, Adam Davidson, who I got to know through his podcast years ago, was fantastic journalist. I think, you know, he actually has written about some of the linked up, some of the money stuff. But, yeah, I don't. I have no idea. I wish I knew. I think we all need a lot of answers.

[Tim Miller]

We do indeed. All right, well, thank you, Stacy, so much for talking about this. I appreciate it. We didn't know each other before this, but I've been mentioning you this week because. Okay, good. Well, thank you.

[Stacey Williams]

Everyone loves you.

[Tim Miller]

Well, good. I appreciate that. And I. And I appreciate that. That when I got a text from your. For your PR person, they're like, see? And I was like, oh, I hope everything I've been saying is right. You know, I didn't want to get in trouble, but I kept going. Yeah. I kept being in the media, and people would be like, well, just because his name is on the list doesn't mean he did anything wrong. Like, what are you talking about? Like, many women have said that he sexually harassed or assaulted them. Them. And specifically in the context of Epstein, women have. And, you know, including yourself. So, I mean, it's just important distinction.

[Stacey Williams]

Yeah, No, I really appreciated that. Yeah. You feel like, you know, I feel like, you know, you feel like you're screaming into the void sometimes. And the fact when this. This, you know, this happened, it blew up a little bit around the election, and then it was quiet. And then once this started heating up again, the last few weeks, again, like you said, everyone's like, well, just because they were in a photo, I'm like, like, what? Why did I get an ulcer in November?

[Tim Miller]

What a crazy story.

[Stacey Williams]

So, yeah, thank you. I appreciate it, really. And it's true. There are a bunch of us, and, you know, like, I feel like, you know, people say this, but for everyone that comes forward, like, you know, it makes someone else feel comfortable to come, you know, enough to come forward. So that's a good thing. So thank you.

[Tim Miller]

Thank you. No, real honestly, I'm doing Nothing, I'm just flapping my jaw. Thank you very much. Really appreciate you and everybody else. Thank you. Thank you for joining us on the feed. Subscribe. We'll be talking to you all soon. Peace.

[Stacey Williams]

Cover up, cover up, cover up that youthless nobody, nobody, nobody's ever going to notice and I am catching up and I am seeing red However I prove I'm right and raise it overhead I never promised you and anything I couldn't do we tried to bury it and rise above bury it and rise above you yeah oh you never promised me you see it differently bury it and rise above bury it and rise above you you bury it, bury it, bury.

[Tim Miller]

It and rise above we bury it, bury it, bury it.

[Stacey Williams]

Reaching, reaching for reaching for my resistance Nobody, nobody, nobody sees it at a distance and I am catching up and I am seeing.

[Tim Miller]

Red how about I throw my weight.

[Stacey Williams]

And raise it overhead? I never promised you anything I couldn't do we tried very advisable, very advisable for you you do you never promised me you see it differently bury it miserable bury it and rise about you you vary it very bury it, bury it and rise above you bury it, bury it, bury it and rise above.

[Tim Miller]

You bury it, bury it, bury it.

[Stacey Williams]

Rise above.

[Tim Miller]

The Board podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

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