Bill Kristol: Trump Is Humiliating Us

Summary

The Bulwark Podcast: "Bill Kristol: Trump Is Humiliating Us"

Date: January 19, 2026
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Bill Kristol (Bulwark Editor at Large)

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Episode Overview

This MLK Day episode revolves around Donald Trump's bizarre and alarming push to “purchase” Greenland—accompanied by threats of tariffs against US allies until they cede the territory—and the wider diplomatic, political, and domestic fallout of Trump's authoritarian maneuvers. Tim Miller and Bill Kristol dissect the farcical but consequential nature of these actions, the complicity and cowardice of congressional Republicans, the role of US allies, and the increasing normalization of dystopian immigration enforcement in America. The episode also explores what meaningful resistance and policy response might look like, and ends with reflections on Martin Luther King Jr.'s legacy, optimism, and civic courage.

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Main Discussion Topics

1. Trump's Greenland Gambit and International Fallout

[03:03 - 11:12]

• Trump's Official Statement ("Greenland Ultimatum"):
  On Saturday, Trump declared tariffs (10% from Feb 1, 25% from June 1) on several European countries until “the complete and total purchase of Greenland.”
  • Quote (Tim): "We're going to do a 10% sales tax on Americans until Denmark gives us Greenland, I guess is the plan. Yeah." [04:23]
• Absurdity and Danger:
  • Kristol: Describes the plan as “totally insane,” noting the lack of mention of Greenland in Trump's actual national security strategy documents.
    • “It’s utterly fake...He’s not anti-Russia anyway. But China is very much enjoying our fight with the EU.” [05:03]
  • Tim underscores the real-world cost: Americans paying more for EU goods over a personal vanity project.
• Damage to Alliances, Shift Toward China:
  • Kristol: Warns that Europe, historically tolerant of Trump’s antics, has “finally snapped.” Now, “they’re going to decide China is a more reliable trading partner.” [05:39]
  • Memorable Quote: “It’s interesting that something so farcical can also be so disastrous, so damaging.” [06:37]
• Vanity, Bullying & Tariff 'Emergencies':
  • Tim describes Trump’s stance as “a tantrum,” comparing him to “a rich kid inside FAO Schwarz at Christmas.”
    • "It's a tantrum is what it's about. Obviously the tariff thing is also farcical." [07:19]
  • Points out the lack of any real “emergency” justifying unilateral tariff action.

2. Erosion of Congressional Oversight and Republican Complicity

[11:12 - 15:39]

• Humiliation and Legislative Power:
  • Kristol: "Congress has some power over this...They could pass a war powers resolution saying no use of force in Greenland. That would be two things to put up some barriers to Trump's damaging insanity.” [11:14]
• Bipartisan Delegation to Denmark:
  • Miller debunks the “bipartisan” veneer: the only GOPers in the group are either retiring or outliers, not representative of current party leadership. [13:20-14:07]
  • Republicans like Collins and Murkowski could change the Senate’s balance with a defection, but choose not to.
• Failure to Even Mildly Rebuke:
  • Miller references the lack of action: "If you read this statement about how Donald Trump is sad he’s not getting the Nobel Peace Prize and he blames Norway... and possibly invade Greenland... you’d think, 25th Amendment, right?” [15:39]

3. U.S. Foreign Policy Collapse: Ukraine, NATO, and “Peace Boards”

[17:39 - 20:10]

• Trump Sides with Putin, Ignores Ukraine:
  • Trump blames Zelensky, invites Putin to a “Gaza Board of Peace.”
    • Kristol: "In a sane world, he would be removed from office by a vote of 315 out of 100 in the House and 85 to 15 in the Senate." [20:10]
• Allies Demoralized, Russia & China Emboldened:
  • Europe now considers U.S. less reliable than China.
  • NATO badly shaken; “we’re breaking up NATO. We’re basically thugs on the world stage.” [15:39]

4. Domestic Authoritarianism: ICE Abuse and Civil Liberties

[23:29 - 35:42]

• Minneapolis: Use of ICE Against Political Foes & Protesters
  • Trump’s DoJ attempts to prosecute Minnesota officials—unapologetic abuse of power. Miller notes the “yakety-sax disaster” of failed politically-motivated prosecutions, but points to serious harm from ICE and DHS actions.
• Judicial Pushback:
  • Judge Catherine Menendez bars ICE agents from arresting or pepper-spraying people for merely observing or criticizing government actions.
    • Miller: "It is, I think, pretty important...they've laid out...a meticulous documentation of the kind of abuses that we've seen from ICE." [27:22]
• ICE's Dystopian Tactics:
  • CNN report: Immigrants detained for their accent, use of facial recognition for spot-checks.
    • Bill: “This used to be a talking point... about China... this is what it means to be a free society, that we don't do this. ...If you have big papers, guys, you don't have any rights.” [31:53]
  • Miller: “It’s really like RoboCop, futuristic evil stuff that they're doing.” [31:53]
• Congress’s Abdication:
  • Both hosts lament that Congress (mostly Republicans, but also Democrats) is AWOL on ICE oversight and limiting executive overreach.

5. The Abolish ICE Debate

[37:47 - 43:32]

• Difference from "Defund the Police":
  • Kristol: “Most police departments have improved...and you need to have a police department. ICE seems to be so corrupt now...it should be sort of reformed from the ground up.” [38:55]
• Political Realities:
  • Miller argues that most Americans have no positive association with ICE, making it an easier political target than police reform.
    • "People's relationship with the police...they understand the function... Most people have no positive association with ICE at all. Or no relationship with ICE at all." [40:09]

6. Democratic Responses and Executive Action

[44:33 - 47:16]

• Spanberger in Virginia: Model of Aggressive Reform
  • Virginia Gov. Abigail Spanberger’s executive orders to block ICE cooperation and overhaul university boards are cited as models for how Democrats could act when reclaiming executive power.
  • Kristol: “She becomes an example of what you do if you take executive authority.” [46:32]

7. MLK Day Reflections and Hope

[47:16 - End]

• Trump’s Disdain for MLK Jr.:
  • Kristol details how Trump’s administration removed MLK Day (and Juneteenth) from the list of free national park entry days, in contrast to celebrating Trump’s own birthday. “What do [MLK Day and Juneteenth] have in common?” [47:30]
  • No White House statement on MLK observed.
• Lessons from King:
  • Kristol: “King was upbeat, basically, and, you know, thought justice will ultimately prevail against the forces he was fighting...He was a pretty amazing person in any case.” [49:01]
  • Miller: “It’s important to project that optimism to make the world what you want it to be. Nobody got anything by being so demoralized that they gave up.” [50:42]

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Highlighted Quotes & Key Moments

• “It’s interesting that something so farcical can also be so disastrous, so damaging.”
  — Bill Kristol, reflecting on the absurd seriousness of the Greenland debacle. [06:37]

• “Congress has some power over this...Tariffs. Congress is supposed to be the body that institutes tariffs.”
  — Bill Kristol, on legislative abdication. [11:12]

• “Donald Trump is a sociopath, right? So he can’t really be humiliated. But maybe some of these members, you’re talking about, of Congress can.”
  — Tim Miller, on the importance of invoking a sense of shame and accountability. [11:25]

• “We’re driving Europe into China’s arms, we’re breaking up NATO...the rationale for it is Looney Tunes dementia style stuff.”
  — Tim Miller, bluntly summing up the global consequences. [15:39]

• “This used to be kind of a talking point...about China...what it means to be a free society, that we don’t do this.”
  — Bill Kristol, on ICE’s transformation of American norms. [31:53]

• “People's relationship with the police, even if they have some concerns...they understand the function... Most people have no positive association with ICE at all.”
  — Tim Miller, on the politics of "Abolish ICE." [40:09]

• “King should give us some hope. But I’ve got to say, we need the hope, because when you look at the current circumstances, Ivy Trump's a little more popular. That’s good. But...the damage to the world order and liberal order at home, it can get one demoralized.”
  — Bill Kristol, concluding with a call for hope amid despair. [50:32]

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Notable Segments & Timestamps

• Opening and Intro: [01:42-02:43]
• Greenland Ultimatum & Tariffs: [03:03-06:47]
• International Fallout & European Response: [06:47-11:12]
• Congressional Complicity: [11:12-15:31]
• Foreign Policy Meltdown—NATO/Ukraine: [17:39-20:10]
• ICE Authoritarianism/Domestic Overreach: [23:29-35:42]
• “Abolish ICE” vs “Defund the Police”: [37:47-43:32]
• Democratic Policy Models (Spanberger): [44:33-47:16]
• MLK Day, Optimism & Democratic Morale: [47:16-End]

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Tone & Style

The tone is caustic, frustrated, and at times incredulous, with flashes of humor to “wash down the crazy.” Both Miller and Kristol are unsparing in their criticism of Trump, congressional Republicans, and the collapse of liberal democratic norms—but remain determined to strategically resist, and close with the hope and determination exemplified by Martin Luther King, Jr.

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Summary Takeaway

Tim Miller and Bill Kristol deliver a scathing, detailed, and exasperated breakdown of the Trump administration’s latest attacks on liberal democracy—from contempt for NATO and democratic allies to the creeping normalization of authoritarian policing tactics at home. They urge assertive policy responses, call out the cowardice and complicity of Congress, and invoke the lessons and spirit of MLK as both reminder and rallying point for democratic resilience.

Transcript

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[Tim Miller]

Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host Tim Miller. It's Martin Luther King Day. We're here with you. Hopefully you are having a restful holiday or a non restful protest filled holiday. Either of those are acceptable. Hopefully you're not working a couple of notes really quick. So Saturday night I taped a discussion with Chris Ostrushko, who's the angry guy. He's branded himself as Minnesota Angry man, which I like that branding who we played at length his rant from the streets of Minnesota last week on the pod. I was happy to talk to him. You can check that out in the book. Takes Feedback. Also, it's wonderful feedback about Friday's Pod with Wright Thompson. If you skip that, give it a listen. And also it's maybe the kind of POD that's a little bit off of the news enough. If you got a friend in your life you want to introduce to the Bulwark might be a good one to share with them. And the Monday Mailbag. It's coming back soon, I promise. We're just working on getting that right for y'. All. So it's Monday, it's A holiday. He doesn't care. He's working. It's editor at large, Bill Krystal. How you doing, Bill?

[Bill Kristol]

This isn't really work, you know, this is just. This is.

[Tim Miller]

If this were work. Such a great point.

[Bill Kristol]

If this were work, everyone would like.

[Tim Miller]

Work, you know, That's a great point. You know, you and me together again, you know, so happy together. Okay. Anyway, the news is bad.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, the news is bad. Not so happy together. Happy to be with you, Tim, needless to say.

[Tim Miller]

All right, we're going to start with the imminent invasion of Greenland, I guess. I mean, this is like the kind of thing that if it had been, you know, in the writers room at Veep, people would, like, pitched this. This is too much. Okay. Like, this is like, not even Selina Meyer would go along with this. But the real life is. I just want to read a couple of things because it's important to actually read the exact text of the official statement of the President of the United States about this. This first one came Saturday, and he writes this. We have subsidized Denmark by not charging them tariffs or other forms of remuneration. Now, after centuries, it is time for Denmark to give back. World peace is at stake. China and Russia want Greenland, and there is not a thing Denmark can do about it. They currently have two dog sleds as protection, one added recently. He goes on for a while, then talking about how dangerous the situation is in Greenland, and then he announces what he wants to do about it. Starting on February 1st, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, France, Germany, the UK, the Netherlands and Finland will be charged a 10% tariff on any goods sent to the US on June 1st, they'll be increased to 25%. This tariff will be due and payable until such time as a deal is reached for the complete and total purchase of Greenland. There's more this morning, but I guess just on the tariff part of it, Bill, I'd even react to this. We're going to do a 10% sales tax on Americans until Denmark gives us Greenland, I guess is the plan. Yeah.

[Bill Kristol]

For goods from the eu, Right. Which is kind of a major trading partner. And a lot of important goods come from there and components of other things that we assemble.

[Tim Miller]

You're going to be thrilled for their pharmaceuticals, you know, wine and cheese, auto parts. They're thrilled for that to cost more as part of Donald Trump's dick measuring contests with the North Europeans.

[Bill Kristol]

I mean, it's so insane. The Trump administration issued its national security strategy at the end of November, I believe it was not that long ago, 35 pages. It's not very detailed as these things go, but it's their strategy, such as it is Western hemisphere tough guys and so forth. Greenland is not mentioned. It's utterly fake. The, I mean, he's now decided that fighting Russia and China is a little better of a on ramp for sort of Republican ish and conservative ish types to tolerate this or to go along with this. And I've noticed this myself in some arguments that, you know, Bill, we gotta be serious about Russia and China and I don't know. And the Danes can't really hold them off. It's so utterly fake. I mean, he's not anti Russia anyway. But China is very much enjoying our fight with the eu.

[Tim Miller]

We're not fighting Russia and Ukraine, so why would we fight them over Greenland?

[Bill Kristol]

Let's give Ukraine to Russia, but then we'll be real pseudo tough in Greenland. So it's all totally fake. The fact that it's fake and it's all about him, I guess, wanting to be on Mount Rushmore or someone who expanded the size of the US or something doesn't mean it's not unbelievably damaging. And the degree to which I do think the Europeans, having put up with a lot and decided to cater to Trump in all kinds of ridiculous ways that we've all noticed over the last year, I mean, they've now snapped as they is understandable. And I mean, the Canada China deal announced late last week, I guess Europeans are going to decide that China is a more reliable trading partner than the US they don't like China much. They know what China's up to in terms of stealing intellectual property and undercutting their own products. But at the end of the day, they can sort of live with that. China doesn't arbitrarily slap on 10% tariffs every week. You know, China's farther away. They can't really mess with the Europeans quite as much much at this point. It's such a disaster. I mean, it's interesting that something that's so farcical can also be so disastrous, so damaging.

[Tim Miller]

You know, you're not compelled by the golden dome argument, you know, that we must, we must have Greenland to build a golden dome to protect from Russian ballistols.

[Bill Kristol]

Why did no one ever think of that until two, two weeks ago? Or we have a million, we have a military base and we could have five more if we want and we can build whatever we golden dome, you know, things we need in those bases. Right. We don't need the it's just ridiculous.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, yeah.

[Bill Kristol]

What do you think? Isn't it just. Is it just vanity and the like of. And bullying.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, it's vanity, bullying, stubbornness. Greenland looks big on it. Got the idea in his head he wants what he wants. He's a child, you know, he's like a rich kid inside FAO Schwartz at Christmas, like, demanding that he gets the most expensive toy and yelling at his parents, throwing shoes at them if they. It's just like a. It's a tantrum is what it's about. Obviously the tariff thing is also farcical. Right. And this is all we're waiting for, the Supreme Court decision on this. But the idea that he has to do this unilaterally because of some emergency, they can't even defend that. Besant was on over the weekend and was asked, like, what the emergency is. It rationalizes this and he's like, emergency is preventing from an emergency. It's just nonsense talk. And we are in an actual, not a hot shooting war, but like a hot trade war now. You know, not just, oh, you know, statements about how we wish the French would be a little bit stronger allies or whatever. You know, this has happened before in our lifetimes, but like we're leveraging actual real economic consequences. You could really almost think of this as like a sanctions type policy on our European allies and on our own citizens. Right over nothing that is real. Like, it's not just rhetoric to that point. Late last night, I guess Donald Trump sent a text to the Ambassador of Norway, or someone did, on Trump's behalf. Here's the text of that. Dear Ambassador, President Trump has asked that the following message be shared with Prime Minister Jonas Storr and be forwarded to your. In parentheses insert named head of government state. So they didn't get that fully done. King Harold is who they're looking for there. Here's the message. Dear Jonas, considering your country decided not to give me the Nobel Peace Prize for having stopped eight wars, plus, I no longer feel an obligation to think purely of peace. That's ominous, although it will always be predominant. But I can now think about what is good and proper for the usa. Denmark cannot protect that land from Russia or China. And why do they have a right of ownership anyway? There are no written documents. It's only that a boat landed there hundreds of years ago, but we had boats landing there also. I've done more for NATO than any other person since its founding. And now NATO should do something for us. The world is not secure unless we have Complete and total control of Greenland. Thank you. Unfortunately, we have to learn about such things now. I will say that there were written documents. There was a treaty of Kiel in 1814 which transferred Greenland from Norwegian to Danish rule. Folks can Google that if they want to learn more. He didn't get the Peace Prize, and so now he's like, we can steal Greenland is basically the case he's made there.

[Bill Kristol]

I mean, it's just so idiotic, but also so dangerous. I always come back. That's one thing we've all learned, right? That something can be really farcical and just stupid and vanity and so forth and do a lot of damage, I guess, is Charlie Sykes thing about the clown or the flamethrower. And the flames are no less damaging if they're exercised by a clown out as opposed to a resolute, serious arsonist. And of course, they have a combination of both in the Trump administration. I mean, it's just a humiliation that he's our president. And I would like to say, to return to a rant you and I both engaged in many times, Congress has some power over this. Tariffs. I believe that Congress is supposed to be the body that institutes tariffs. They exist. They are all background comments. This is worrisome. Didn't some delegation go there or something to Denmark maybe? And they're clucking about, really kind of perturbed about what Trump is doing. I love their statements when they sort of advisers to Trump are leading him in the wrong direction here anyway. But they're still pathetically weak. But Congress could stop this. I mean, they can't stop everything, obviously, and they can't stop the tariffs.

[Tim Miller]

They can stop the tariffs, for starters.

[Bill Kristol]

They can stop the tariffs. They could pass a war powers resolution saying no use of force in Greenland. That would be two things that would at least put up some barriers to Trump's damaging insanity.

[Tim Miller]

Humiliation is a good word for this. It's important to say that because we've all been so humiliated over time that sometimes you forget to connect with that feeling. But the feeling of humiliation is actually important because it prevents people from doing things. Like, Donald Trump is a sociopath, right? So he can't really be humiliated. But maybe some of these members that you're talking about, of Congress can. I'm happy you brought them up because I want to mention this bipartisan delegation that went to Denmark this weekend. A couple items on it. One was a punchbowl report. Apparently this is sourced from Thom Tillis, who was one of the Republicans that went. Tillis was saying to them that the issue is so intensely animating among the Danes that multiple people approached Tillis on the streets of Copenhagen and referenced his Senate floor speech like they're watching American Senate floor speeches to get up to speed on this. They said the lawmakers witnessed a level of anti Americanism that stunned and depressed them. Not sure why it would have been stunning given the fact that we are saber rattling our European foes and charging a tariff on them for no reason, but they were stunned by this. Just before we get to your reaction, I just want to mention everybody kept leaning, all the mainstream news outlets kept leaning in on how this is a bipartisan group that went. Here are the Republicans that went Collins, Murkowski, Tillis, Bacon. Tillis and Bacon are both resigning because they're not welcome in the Republican Party anymore. So two of them are like in the literal sense, rhinos. They're Republicans in name only. They could not win elections in the party anymore. And so they're retiring, quitting. Then you have Collins and Murkowski, who continue to be the two whatever moderates holding on in the Senate that are way outliers from the rest of the conference. And it's fake. Like what they're doing is fake. They're creating a fake bipartisan sheen on this. When we did this last week and I had a couple of serious journalists message me and be like, what you and Bill with the fantasy politics. And I'm like, why are Collins and Murkowski until us in the Republic? Why are they Republicans? Why are they part of this right now? They don't have to be. Angus King is an independent. For some reason, Angus King feels like the Democratic Party label isn't good enough for him. And so he is an independent. Why could not Collins, Murkowski and Tillis be the same? That would take us to a 50, 50 Senate. That would really change a lot of things. And instead they're like the Republican representatives groveling in Denmark while Donald Trump plans the stupidest type of imperialism imaginable. Any thoughts on that? I guess, reaction to that rant.

[Bill Kristol]

I'm in agreement with you. I mean, they could either go 50, three of them could defect. The independents caucus separately and think about reorganizing the Senate. Or they can get one more person, McConnell, I suppose, and just say, look, we're not voting for any Republican resolution to refund the government two weeks from now, which is required for good chunks of the government, unless the following things are attached. A war powers resolution preventing Trump from using force in Greenland, blocking at least some if not all of these insane tariffs. You could do some other stuff too. Obviously there are other issues.

[Tim Miller]

Ukraine, Demassing ice.

[Bill Kristol]

I mean, I'd like to see a whole bunch of stuff. But I'm just saying for these guys who are focused on this particular issue, it just takes four of them. That's all they have to do. Just vote with the Democrats against a Republican resolution to keep the government open or threaten to, and suddenly everything comes grinding to a halt and there's a serious chance to make some difference. And maybe some of the other Republicans then think, well, okay, if there's actually going to be a vote anyway on this, that has a chance of having an effect, maybe I'll do the right thing. That's probably too much hope for. It is unbelievable. The guy's gotten so much worse. So both crazier and self indulgent and the vanity, but also of course the danger and the authoritarianism. And there have been no republic. Basically no further Republican defections on the Hill. Am I right about this? There were the four on Epstein who are now undefecting. It seems like a couple of them.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, we're gonna get to that in a sec.

[Bill Kristol]

But none, right? I mean it sounds believable, right? There are 53 Republican senators. Maybe a few of them should be a little bit upset by what's going on.

[Tim Miller]

If you read this statement about how Donald Trump is sad that he's not getting the Nobel Peace Prize and he blames Norway and so he's going to punish Norway and possibly invade Greenland unless they give it away. Like you'd read that to Republican senators last year and said, okay, if this happens, 25th Amendment, right? I mean you would think, I mean they wouldn't have answered that question because I would have been like, you have tds. This would never happen. Donald Trump is never going to threaten Denmark in Norway until he gets total control of Greenland. It's like, yeah, he is. That's what he's doing. We're driving Europe into China's arms, we're breaking up NATO. NATO basically were thugs on the world stage, menacing other democracies. And the rationale for it is Looney Tunes dementia style stuff. And this is either written by an 88 year old who's losing control of his mental faculties or a 7 year old whining that he didn't get the prize. This is not an adult way to communicate and forget 25th amendment. None of them are even wrapping them on the knuckles. And John Thune could pass that legislation. John Thune could act. John Thune I presume, is not for a Greenland invasion. He's been a free marketer his whole life. I presume he's not for these tariffs. Just to put a finer point in the humiliation, we do have a statement in response from the Prime Minister of Norway to the menacing text that our president sent him as regards to the Nobel Peace Prize. This is how the statement ends, or the reply ends, as regards to the Nobel Peace Prize. I've clearly explained, including to President Trump, what is well known, the Nobel Peace Prize is awarded by an independent Nobel Committee, not the Norwegian government. Like what it's like I've told you before, I can't give you this trophy. And he just got the trophy. Like Raymond Machado gave him the stupid medal. And the whole thing is so embarrassing. Anyway, should we move on?

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

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[Bill Kristol]

I mean, in the sane world, he would be removed from office by a vote of 315 out of 100 in the House and 85 to 15 in the Senate. Now, it's a problem that Vance would become president, so maybe they need to think about how to remove both or something since Vance has gone along with this. But, but, I mean, it is, it's beyond humiliating. Humiliating.

[Tim Miller]

Lunacy.

[Bill Kristol]

Lunacy.

[Tim Miller]

Lunacy and humiliating. Big shout out, I guess, to the, you know, the crowd that couldn't tell the difference between Kamala and Trump on, on the Israel issue. Big shout out to them, you know, that were actively campaigning for Trump. Actually, a lot of them, the kind of lefty tankies.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Who are so unhappy with Biden. They're like, well, maybe Trump. The. Was that the group in Michigan, the Palestinians for Trump group in Michigan?

[Bill Kristol]

Oh, yeah.

[Tim Miller]

Great work for you guys. Putin's going to be on the Gaza Board of Peace. Now. We' see how that goes. Epstein, as you mentioned at the top, I feel like this is kind of a manic Martin Luther King Day podcast. Fucking another thing. One thing after another. One month after the congressionally mandated deadline deletes all files on Jeffrey Epstein, the Justice Department has made only a fraction of the files public. They haven't released anything in weeks and they remain silent on their plans to comply further. And basically all the Republicans on the Hill, except Thomas Massie have shut up about this. And like, they all voted for it eventually under pressure. They all voted for the release of these files but none of them care. Even Lauren Boebert was, was asked about this over the weekend. She said she didn't care anymore. It's other people's problem. I mean the COVID up is going to continue I guess, but I do think this is an area where we've seen already that pressure on Republicans on the Hill work did work once and so probably it's worthwhile to continue that.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah. And the survivors really are the victims are really pretty well organized and extremely unhappy and have been totally lied to and betrayed at this point. And I think they'll keep the pressure up and I think they can do so, I hope effectively. Again it would be nice if Congress having voted over I'm going to lead that these things documents be released did something to ensure they're being released in terms of legislation or riders on appropriations bills and the like. But as you say, they seem to have other important things to do. Not sure what they are, but they're off this week. The Senate's off this week going unimportant codells and not doing town halls. I don't believe the Republicans, so I don't know what they're doing exactly, but.

[Tim Miller]

They'Re doing nothing and they've got a budget.

[Bill Kristol]

They'll come back in a week and have three days to try to resolve the budget before the government shutdown, which I imagine they won't be able to do. So maybe there'll be another shutdown and then I don't know. Congress is utterly irresponsible, which is to say the Republicans in Congress Democrats could do a little more too. Honestly, they're also off. They didn't exactly balk at going off on vacation this week to my knowledge in the Senate. The other thing that shouldn't just be land flown is there are supposedly some people in the Trump administration somewhere who are more responsible, who are doing the right thing down in the trenches. And look, if they're doing important things that ultimately are for our national security, I guess they should stay there and do them. Maybe someone could resign. I mean, is no one there embarrassed to be part of this administration? Is there not a single person on the National Security Council, a single person in the senior ranks at State or Defense who just thinks I can't be part of this? I don't know, it feels to me like maybe resignation might be in order.

[Tim Miller]

I guess all those people signed up to join after Donald Trump attempted to end the world's longest running democracy, so maybe not. You ever fall head over heels for a piece of furniture online. A New Couch I've been eyeing new couches myself recently. I kind of want something a little cozier, something to think about. But then you go and look at it and you're like holy shit, these couches are too expensive. And start to feel like, well, I don't know, I guess maybe the new couch isn't for me. Well, that's where dupe.com comes in. It's a genius tool that helps you find high quality, budget friendly versions of the expensive pieces you've been eyeing. It's really easy to use. Just go to dupe.com and paste any product URL or upload a photo and bam. It shows you look alikes that won't drain your savings account. And these aren't shady knockoffs. Most of the time they're made in the exact same factories, just sold under a different name and without the scary price tag that $6,000 Cloud couch influencers are always lounging on. Dupe could find something similar for like $1200. Same vibe, same plushiness, but you don't have to sell one of your kidneys. It's totally free. Dangerously addicting and blowing up on TikTok for good reason. If you've got expensive taste and an inexpensive budget, dupe.com is your new best friend. I'll tell you it is fun when you're sitting on your current couch scrolling through, just doing a little window shopping on the phone multi screening. I have to admit it is a little addicting. So go ahead and make your dream home happen and enjoy. Don't doom Scroll Couch scroll without maxing out your credit card, using dupe.com is insanely simple. Just go to dupe.com and paste any product, URL or even upload a photo and it will instantly show you similar items for way less. There's also an app and a browser extension if you want to make it even easier. No account needed. Totally free. Start saving money with Duke.com today to Minnesota Trump around the same time that he decided to tear off our European allies over his desire for Greenland, he also announced that he's sicking his own Department of Justice on Mayor of Minneapolis Jacob Fry was on this podcast a little bit ago and Tim Walls unlike some of this other stuff, this is been like clownish and clownish. I don't know. I don't know if it's quite. I'm quite ready to call it clownish and dangerous because it's been totally humiliating to them how unsuccessful all of their. I mean like he's had success in the pardons because it's the thing he controls. He's pardoned a lot of criminals that are supporters of his, so that's accomplishing something in his revenge tour. But when it comes to like prosecuting foes, it's just been like a yakety sax disaster for these guys. And so I don't know that Tim Walls and Jacob Fry are shaking in their boots over this. But again, like, this is just totally unapologetic abuse of the Department of Justice to go after political foes. We did see some resignations in this case, I guess we should say six prosecutors and Minneapolis they were, and I.

[Bill Kristol]

Think four in the Justice Department sort of on related matters last week here in D.C. again, not that I haven't seen the huge flurry number of statements from people at prominent law firms praising these prosecutors. There are people helping them out as there are, but they're all part of the resistance. Again, the degree to which the elites just are willing to go along with everything terrible, the elites in general, Republicans in Congress in particular, and the Democrats in Congress, as I say, not exactly being as quite as militant as they might be in stopping all this from happening. It's pretty horrible. And to have it happening at the same time in foreign policy and domestic policy, too, is, if I can put it that way, is particularly bad, don't you think? I mean, it's sort of the authoritarianism is just fully accelerating at home and abroad.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, we did see some pushback from the judiciary on this. And I just do want to shout out Judge Catherine Menendez to buy an appointee. She barred ICE agents from arresting or pepper spraying people for simply observing or criticizing the federal government's actions and listed a pretty long and detailed list documenting the examples that they've seen. And a lot of the stuff is echoing what Chris Ostrushka told me over the weekend, what he's seeing on the ground, just like ICE officials going after protesters who aren't doing anything, targeting individual protesters, going after citizens, detaining them, roughing them up, shooting the smoke bombs out into the protests when there was nothing threatening happening. So on the one hand that's good. On the other hand, it is, I think it's pretty important actually that they've kind of laid out like some from a nonpartisan source, like a meticulous documentation of the kind of abuses that we've seen from ice.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, let's see if ICE now changes its ways. I'm sort of skeptical they'll just lie as they have been and say they're not doing it and they're undoubtedly going to appeal and try to get a stay from appellate court or I guess ultimately Supreme Court. So I respect the judge and I'm very pleased that this is at least on the record and people should rally to support that. But again, I mean, God forbid any Republican governor could say, you know what, I've got my issues with Governor Waltz and I didn't support him in 2024 when he was VP candidate, but he's doing the right thing here. This shouldn't happen in one of our states.

[Tim Miller]

Right. Or a former Republican governor, like, I don't know, maybe Tim Pawlenty from Minnesota. Have we seen anything from him? No, actually, I Googled that this weekend. I was like, where's T paw been? For people who kind of just checked into politics with Trump in 2016, he was Republican candidate for president and on the shortlist for VP for Romney in 12. Not only has he not said anything in defense of Tim Walls, actually he was on News Nation I saw, talking about how ICE should escalate in Minnesota. Really?

[Bill Kristol]

Oh, my God.

[Tim Miller]

I want to play a clip. CNN did this. Luckily, CNN hasn't been bought by the Ellisons yet, so there's still some reporting going on over there. I'll air this little reporting bit from the ground of Minneapolis from cnn, because there's one part of it that everybody was focused on for obvious reasons. But I want to focus on a second element that I think is getting missed a little bit. Let's listen.

[Bill Kristol]

Why are you asking me for my paperwork? Because of your accent. I still. You have an accent, too. Where were you born, sir? Where were you born at?

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[Bill Kristol]

I'm from this country. You know what, sir? Now talking to you, seeing hearing that you have an accent, I have reason to believe that you are not born of this. So you just visit.

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What country are you from? According to Manera, agents took a photo of him and searched a system that indicated he's been a US citizen since 2019.

[Tim Miller]

So obviously, the absurdity of these, like, goons who are immigrants themselves, because we are a country of immigrants. It's fucking America. Lots of people have different accents in this country. It's like the absurdity of an accented guy telling another guy with an accent that he needs to be handcuffed and detained because of his accent. This is preposterous of course, it was that last thing, though, that people are not focusing on as much for me. And I think it potentially is part of the reason why that Jonathan Ross was videoing before he shot Renee Goode. And you see in the videos of the little Nazi guy, little SS guy, Avino, you see him always putting a camera up in people's face. They're using facial recognition mission technology. I assume Palantir is facilitating this to look at their database to see if the person they're talking to is a citizen. But I assume probably they're looking at, to see if they're in the process, if this is somebody that maybe is asking for asylum and has been going for me but hasn't had a final decision yet. And that is just so dystopian that we have masked police right now that aren't showing their faces going around using facial recognition technology to try to decide if somebody should be detained and nabbed and maybe deported. It's really like RoboCop, futuristic evil stuff that they're doing.

[Bill Kristol]

And this used to be kind of a talking point, a correct one about China and sort of this is what it means to be a free society that we don't do this. And also we don't ask people for their papers a la Nazi Germany and other East Germany. Yeah. So if he has big papers, guys, you know, and big, big, you don't have any rights. And again, God forbid Congress should, including Republicans, should do anything to sort of tell ice, no, you can't do that. So one federal district court judge to a credit is trying to stop this. But it'd be a lot easier if Congress said no, that's not part of what ICE can do. It is contrary to what a free society should be like.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Bill Kristol]

And again, it's not one thing if you're abrogating some freedoms, but says a huge emergency, I don't know, riots out of control, cities burning, maybe you do for 24, have to be a little, you know, break some, some, some norms and some rules to get things under control. Totally nothing here. Nothing. Minneapolis was, so far as one knows, totally quiet. There's a little bit of fraud going on which they were trying to deal with and which if federal government wants to send in some more people to investigate and prosecute fraud, that's fine. But there was no immigration migrant crisis in Minneapolis at all. No crime crisis to my knowledge, or nothing going down anyway. It's not even worth dignifying this with an explanation, with a kind of defense, because it's so appalling. I hope this isn't. God forbid. This is the new norm. Three years of this. I mean, I don't know.

[Tim Miller]

My success has my libertarian neurons firing, by the way, because we have this big kind of conversation down here in New Orleans about how there were cameras in the French Quarter that were doing facial recognition. And what they say, you know, you can only trust what they say. What they say was they were just like. There were certain, like, people that had been violent criminals or whatever. And so, you know, if that they came up on the camera would flag for the cop on the beat down there to, like, whatever, keep an eye on or something, you know, essentially. And, you know, crime's down here. Like, it's down a lot of other places. And I was kind of torn about that. Like, I have my libertarian instincts, but also, you do want to make policing easier for, you know, particularly for targeting violent criminals. You want people to be safe. You want tourists to be safe. But I don't know, there's something about it that kept nagging at me that made me feel like I'm on the other side of this. Like, I would rather risk a little bit of safety versus the potential, you know, kind of perniciousness with which this could be used. Like, that video just has me, like, I'm, like, totally in Radley Balco Reason magazine mode. I was like, just like, no. Like, no. Like, you cannot do this. You cannot put on a mask and put up your camera and take a picture of me and search your history when I don't know who you are. And I've not done anything where you would presume guilt, besides having an accent.

[Bill Kristol]

I mean, these days when you check in with tsa, you go through the TSA line. At least I think here at Nashville, most of the place. Most of the time. Recently I've been on flights. They just do the photo of you.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Bill Kristol]

And I also little. Little creepy, but it does make it a little faster. And I believe they say there, this photo is just, you know.

[Tim Miller]

But we don't save it.

[Bill Kristol]

Yeah, we don't save it. We don't share it. They have it in the system. They make sure you're who you say you are on the ticket. And then it's sort of. I don't quite know what it means not to save it, since how could they just sort of save it? Because next time you show up, they match you up with something. Right. Anyway. But let's assume it's not sort of being distributed widely to ICE or something. One hopes at least that shows a kind of recognition that, okay, we're using this technology, but we're using it in an appropriate way. Not in the way ISIS did, but isis. Totally shameless. And again, no one seems to have any control over this. I mean, there's no, I don't know, their court cases, I suppose maybe they're trying to challenge it in court. Take a while to get that to trial and so forth. But again, Congress is perfectly happy, I guess, for ICE to be doing this.

[Tim Miller]

We should just say there are varying different Democratic bills out there around this now. Fair enough. Obviously you need Mike Johnson or John Thune to be on board with any of that, and they're not. When Wright was on Friday's podcast, I don't have the exact quote in front of me, but he said something along the lines of, like, all mobs are bad. We were talking about the 1962 mob at the football game that basically kind of turned the governor of Mississippi's view on whether the school should be desegregated. Then he kind of made an aside point about how even righteous mobs are bad. We just have learned over history that mob mentality leads to bad things. So in that spirit, I just want to say that the righteous mobs in Minnesota should stay out of the churches. I don't know if you saw this. Minnesota protesters, like going into a Southern Baptist church and like jacusing the, you know, them of working with ICE or whatever in the middle of a service. I just. Let's just, let's just not do that, friends. Let's keep, keep an eye out for your fellow resistance protesters out there. If anybody gets a little bit too caught up in the, in the mob element of this.

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[Tim Miller]

I want to talk about. Well, I received a piece of feedback. I've had this a couple times actually, that people have said, because you and I have both been very adamant about how Democrats should be extremely aggressive on this and how that people can be won over on this and arguing and pearl clutching over using the phrase abolish ICE is stupid and Democrats should be instead focused on pressing the political gas on this and putting as much pressure on it as possible and abolish ISIS perfectly fine. Or however you want to talk about it is fine. Just focus on the enemy. Focus on Bevino and Miller and Trump and Vance and the people that are menacing folks in our communities. And some of our more progressive listeners have been like, well, wasn't it you guys that were finger wagging us for saying defund the police was bad last time and that was a political liability and what's the difference here? And I think that that's a fair piece of feedback. I have an explanation for why I think it's different, but since you've been tweeting abolish ICE a lot recently, I'd like for you to give your explanation of why it's different First.

[Bill Kristol]

I mean, I assume if ICE were abolished, something would be reconstituted that would do some of the legitimate functions of ice. But I do think ICE seems to be so corrupt now as an institutionist organization that it should be sort of reformed from the ground up. If that makes people feel better than a boss. No. And also, incidentally, the police are a positive contrast to ice. I mean, defund the police was stupid because most police departments have improved quite a bit in the last 20, 30 years. And in any case, you need to have a police department. And in any case, I think even in maybe not in the worst cases, but in 95% of the cases, most of what most police departments are doing was fine and necessary. So defund the police sounded silly and stupid, whereas ICE is really, as I say, corrupted in a way that that I don't know that any police departments were. And so I do think it's a pretty big difference. And again, you can use the police as a positive contrast to ice. The police departments cannot do what ICE is doing. The police departments can't randomly stop people because they don't like their accent. I mean, that is something that actually is. And they can't barge into people's homes. It's the fourth Amendment. But somehow ICE and the Border Patrol, for reasons I really don't fully understand except they're called Immigration or Border Patrol can do all kinds of things that no, the Minnesota Police Department, the D.C. police Department, the New York Police Department cannot do.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, maybe the very worst of the worst police departments were corrupt in this way. The Oakland Police Department was pretty bad for a while. But take your point. I just would add to this just talking about this straight, politically speaking, like without the merits aside. I agree with everything you said about the merits. People, regular people have a good feeling about the police for the most part and like decent relationships and have seen positive police work. Like if they get in trouble, they call the police. I've lived in a couple of like very diverse low income communities and obviously there's a fraught relationship there with the police because there's times the police have been hassling people and acted inappropriately. But also those are high crime areas and they need cops and they know people that are victims of crime and they've known people that have needed protection from criminals. And so like people's relationships, relationship with the police, even if they have some concerns about it or complaints or whatever, they understand the function that is served and it is needed for something in their life. Most people have no positive association with ICE at all or no relationship with ICE at all. Again, maybe this is different if you're running for Congress in Southern Arizona or Texas. And I am open to the fact that Democrats in different parts of the country should talk differently about this. But in most parts of the country, people don't have any association with ICE at all. They've never been, they've never been menaced by an immigrant. They've never needed to call ICE to come save them. If anything, they've been annoyed by Customs Enforcement when they've gone to their beach vacation. This is not a direct comparison from a political standpoint about going after an institution that people understand the purpose of and that need and have whatever varying but relatively positive feelings about versus something that just popped up 20 years ago that they've never known anything about at all. Until all of a sudden they're at their phones and they're seeing these mass thugs menace people. It's a different situation.

[Bill Kristol]

It's such a key contrast. I mean, for all of your lifetime. For all of my lifetime, for all of 200 years, well, 100, 200 years about, there have been police forces in the United States. In every city. In every city in the world, including democratic and liberal nations. And that's why defund the police just sounds silly and at best, silly and a little bit menacing, you might say. Really? I mean, this is something that everyone agrees. You need to have police forces. You know, that guy Bovino. That has not been the case in the US we have not had ICE agents randomly stopping people or doing searches of neighborhoods with people's accents, people whose accents they don't like in the US We've had it a little bit, you know, in some fraud situations near the border and stuff. We have not had that in Minneapolis, Minnesota, or in many, many other cities in the US So being highly critical of ICE and being accepting and even laudatory of our police force as well, insisting on some improvements and reforms are totally consistent. It's funny that somehow the left never kind of understood why defund the police sounded so crazy. It's sort of like, I don't know, defund the water suppliers. I mean, it's kind of, you need to have a police force, right?

[Tim Miller]

Again, I get back to, like, when people are in trouble, they called the police to help them, right? Like, nobody's been like, man, I'm really scared right now. Can you find me an immigration official? You know, from that suck. It's just. Anyway, maybe it should not be thus, but it is us. And so abolish ice. We must continue to press forward on.

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[Tim Miller]

Like democratic strategy around all this. I Did just want to shout out briefly Abigail Spamberger, your governor in Virginia. She was sworn in this past week. She signed a couple of executive orders that I just wanted to mention because in some ways it's an interesting way to think about how a future God willing, president in 2029 might think about some of these challenging questions we're talking about, about how to deal with these corrupted structures. There's two things, but one is she immediately sent an EO revoking Glenn Youngkin's executive order that deputized state police to work with ice. So basically said our police are not working with ICE anymore. In the Youngkin situation, it was like basically ICE could come in and whatever say to the Richmond police, like we've got a lead on a guy over here and like let's work together like that. And no, we're not, not doing that anym. I think that's obviously appropriate. She also did a total overhaul of the university boards in Virginia. They had been magnified. There had been these huge controversies at the University of Virginia. The President got pushed out, they put a bunch of hacks anti dei, anti woke ideologues on these boards and they were corrupting the universities. And rather than doing the okay, well we're going to protect our norms and that person is on a five year term. And so then when they get out and you know, 2031, we'll replace them with something else like no, she forced the resignations of the people that had come on that had been causing the trouble. You know, usually a governor gets four or five appointments to these boards. She did 10, completely reconstituted them and small thing, but I just, I do think it is an example of the type of way that you can be a supporter of norms and institutions, you can be a, you know, a non radical Democrats, but you can also kind of recognize the situation that we're in and the time that we're in and the need for kind of making aggressive executive decisions to kind of unravel all the problems that we've had. So anyway, I don't know if you have any thoughts on that your state.

[Bill Kristol]

But I like Spiderberger, I supported her, I'm glad she's our governor, but I hadn't really focused on this side of it. I think she'll be a good governor, which is that she I guess will be the only governor to have taken over from a Republican predecessor in this second term of Trump, that maybe there'll be war in 20 at the end of this year, November 2026. So it is actually important what you say. I hadn't, as I say, really thought about this much ahead of time. She becomes an example of what you do if you take executive authority. Now, Youngkin is not Trump, so it's a little bit. The decree of corruption of the state government is much, much, much less than the federal government under Trump. But I agree, it makes the Spanberger governorship of Virginia even more interesting actually, and important perhaps than. Than one might have expected.

[Tim Miller]

All right, final thing. Martin Luther King Day. You wrote about this this morning. You got to pay to go to the parks today, apparently because of a Trump executive order. You wrote about some lessons from past MLK speeches. This one to have you leave the audience with a little bit on that.

[Bill Kristol]

So the executive order, which, I mean, get a little attention in late November when it was issued by the Interior Department was it takes MLK Day off the list. They've had a practice of letting people in free on, on federal holidays, basically, and key holidays and what are two other special days that are special for the Park Service. And they took MLK Day and Juneteenth off the list. What do they have in common? I can't imagine why those two got targeted and put on the list. June 14th. And they literally say this in the Department of Interior statement press release. It's Flag Day, President Trump's birthday. And so we're having the national parks are celebrating President Trump and not celebrating, not honoring, not respecting Martin Luther King, who Congress did vote to create a national holiday in memory of his life and legacy and on or near his birthday, the third Monday, I guess in January. So, yeah, so that's, that's the Trump administration. We're gonna. And I believe I looked this morning about a couple hours ago. Maybe something will change today. There is no Trump statement of any noticing that this is Martin Luther King Day, or not even a pro forma statement of tribute to, to King. Nothing surprising there, I suppose, but just a reminder of where we are.

[Tim Miller]

I don't know.

[Bill Kristol]

It's funny. As we've had this discussion, I've been thinking about King. I wrote a little thing about him urging people to read or listen to or watch some of King's speeches, which is really pretty fantastic, I've got to say. In this case, from the 60s, from the last decade of his life or so King got assassinated at age 39. King gave the March on Washington speech.

[Tim Miller]

Really? Yeah.

[Bill Kristol]

King gave the march of the speech at the March on Washington in August 63, when he was 33 or 4, I guess. 34, if I got my math right. I mean, he was a pretty amazing person in any case. But, yeah, I was thinking as we were talking here, I mean, on the one, King was upbeat, basically, and, you know, thought justice will ultimately prevail against the forces he was fighting. Those forces were pretty brutal and killed people and pretty terrible and pretty deeply embedded in America. It's not like segregation was just something that. Okay, you know, we're just going to kind of overcome this quickly. Having said that, I think he thought for all of his life that he was on the side that was ultimately going to win, and he was, and it did. I guess. What's think about our conversation today? I don't know. I feel like we are a little less confident than maybe even King could be, even though he was dealing with such deeply embedded, such deeply embedded bigotries and injustices. But I think we need a little bit. We need to remind ourselves that it could have looked pretty grim for King and certainly was when he started off in this in the 50s, and it certainly was when they were at Selma and when he was in jail in Birmingham and so forth, and he was assassinated by a white racist at age 39 when he's in Memphis trying to help speaking for the sanitation workers who got on strike against horrible conditions there. Yeah, King should give us some hope. But I've got to say, we need the hope, because when you look at the current circumstances, Ivy Trump's a little more popular. That's good. And maybe there'll be good elections this November, but the degree to which he is doing damage to the world order and to our liberal order at home, it can get one demoralized.

[Tim Miller]

I agree with you. I think after reading your newsletter this morning, I went and watched his full Nobel Prize acceptance speech, which was extremely gracious, obviously, and thoughtful and considering all the other people, and was very focused on making sure other folks who are working towards nonviolent resistance in the US and abroad were recognized, certainly the direct opposite of what we've seen from Donald Trump over the past week. And I was also struck by the same thing and just his optimism. And was that all maintained in every private, dark moment we know? No. But it's important to project that optimism in order to try to make the world what you want it to be. Nobody got anything by being so demoralized that they gave up. And so maybe it can steal us a little bit today. And I appreciate that you referenced that. Thank you so much, Bill, Crystal, we'll see you back here next Monday.

[Bill Kristol]

Great.

[Tim Miller]

Everybody else we'll see you back here tomorrow for another edition of the podcast. Peace. My money is spent.

[Bill Kristol]

What a goddamn rent. Neither party is mine.

[Tim Miller]

That's a jacket or the elephant.

[Bill Kristol]

20,000 Nicky Nicky puppets in the corner.

[Tim Miller]

Of the cell block, but they cover the board. Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.