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- [00:01]
Bill Kristol
A morning walk, some bird watching. It's another easy Sunday. UnitedHealth Group makes these ordinary days possible. With partners like the University of Tennessee
- [00:10]
Tim Miller
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- [00:17]
Bill Kristol
pressure, meaning fewer heart attacks and more Sundays at the park. This might feel like an ordinary day to UnitedHealth Group.
- [00:24]
Tim Miller
It's the healthcare system working better for everyone. Learn more@unitedhealthgroup.com Commitment prime presents perfect pairings. What pairs with Reacher on Prime reaching for a sparkling punch delivered with Prime. It's an unbelievable feeling when you're enjoying a punch. At the same time, Reacher is enjoying punching people. Wow. He's still punching people. Entertainment meets fast delivery. It's on Prime. Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. It is Monday. He is back. Editor at large of the Bulwark Fourth of July, content creator extraordinaire, Bill Kristol. You were working this weekend a little
- [01:26]
Bill Kristol
bit in between World cup games, obviously, but it was too hot to go outside, and I. And I was kind of avoiding watching Trump and his attempt to hijack the 250th. So it was World cup and a little bit of work.
- [01:37]
Tim Miller
Yeah, we'll get to the World cup at the end. I also miss Trump. You said you were trying to watch Trump or trying to avoid Trump.
- [01:43]
Bill Kristol
Yes, trying and succeeding in avoiding Trump. Then I had to discuss it a bit with Sam Stein on Sunday, but, you know, luckily Sam had watched it, so I was able to just play off him, you know.
- [01:52]
Tim Miller
Okay, well, you're ahead of me because I just decided I'm going dark. I know this is my job and I'm paid by you people and entrusted by you people to watch this sort of thing, but it's midnight, so whatever. 11 o' clock on the 4th of July, I took my daughter and a neighbor kid, we went up to the roof of a hospital parking garage, maybe against the rules to watch all the fireworks around town. I came home, I was like, I'm not gonna turn this on. Why would I do this to myself? And the next morning I woke up and I was like, I'm not gonna rewatch it. Why would I do that to myself? So I don't know how it was. And there was much to have been said about it in the lead up. And we did. It is sad and unfortunate that our 250th anniversary could not have been more of a unifying celebration. I do. To your point about the World Cup, I do Think that it's been kind of just replaced by, you know, that there was a vacuum and it was filled mostly. We'll get to that at the end, mostly by the World cup team. So that's all. Do you have any other deep thoughts for people who are desperate for observations about his speech?
- [03:01]
Bill Kristol
Just that I think Trump's attempt to hijack it basically failed. I think, you know, 98% of Americans were ignoring what was happening in Washington or, you know, enjoying July 4th in a pretty traditional way in their neighborhoods and their backyards and their local high schools, you know, watching fireworks or like you semi legally on the roofs of garages watching fireworks. Seriously, that's what people do on July 4th and they go to swimming pools and it's hot here. We went to our little neighborhood get together on July 4th. It's usually a little parade, little kids in their tricycles kind of thing. It was too hot, actually. So they just assembled in one area where there was some shade and mixed and mingled and provided, you know, red, white and blue popsicles. But it was charming and it was nice. And I was there about 45 minutes. Several bulwark readers and viewers, I'm happy to say, no talk of Trump, actually, except for the implicitly, I'd say, and the praise for the Bulwark. But, you know, just chatting about what was people's lives and what was going on and how their kids were and so forth. So that reassured me that the huge bulk of America was able to tune out Trump.
- [04:00]
Tim Miller
I think a federalist, a small d Democratic Fourth of July, us in our communities. That feels right. Well, the President is back this morning, up early, ringing the bell in the Oval Office. This all just, all feels so gauche and inappropriate. And it was the first joint opening of the NASDAQ and the Dow to announce the Trump accounts. He has to put his name on them. In his remarks, he mentions Michael Dell, who contributed to those accounts. And he urged people to buy the Dell stock and said that Dell was going to be repaid for his donation. The Dell stock surged this morning after he said that last week we heard right before the weekend that some investment accounts owned by Trump engaged in 300 previously undisclosed stock purchases. One day ahead of his surprise announcement that he would pause his Liberation Day tariffs. There'd been a 45 day deadline to report those transactions. He doesn't abide by deadlines. You replied to that story with just a brief tweet that said impeach and convict. That stirred me. I want to talk about the merits of Impeachment. But first, the degree of grotesquery around this. It's hard to even kind of wrap your arms around.
- [05:23]
Bill Kristol
No, it really is. I remember a year and a half ago, it was like the Trumpists admired Orban, but we can't. It's America. We're not going to go that far down that path. And people met partly the authoritarian path, but partly the kleptocracy path, the corruption path. I don't know Orban's regime in detail, but I feel like we've probably gone further than Orban, or at least equivalently far. We're kind of in Putin territory almost with this level of corruption, aren't we? And it's really, it's appalling. And the reason I just couldn't resist, I just tweeted, impeach and convict. Because. And I'm curious on your thoughts on this, though, but is that, you know, some of the other stuff's a little more complicated. I'm proving that Trump is being lawless or misusing the Justice Department or shouldn't go to war without authorization. I mean, these are all pretty obvious bad things that Trump has done, in my opinion. But there are people around who will say, oh, no, it's more complicated. The stealing is just. I mean, no one's ever doubted that you can be impeached for that. Right? I mean, that's in a way the. It's in a way the most straightforward. It's the least grave of his offenses, you might say, in terms of the future of America as a liberal democracy and a constitutional republic, but it's also the most glaring and obvious, I guess,
- [06:29]
Tim Miller
I think, I guess I even quibble with least grave just because it is the path towards just total banana republic territory.
- [06:38]
Bill Kristol
No, true.
- [06:38]
Tim Miller
This is just how things work from Putin in great powers, or once great powers, former great powers that behave like this, that decline to just kind of random tin pot third world countries. This is what happens. The president gets paid off by the corporation that runs, you know, whatever agricultural product they have, or, you know, they pay off the TV station owner. Like, this is just how things work in countries where there is no rule of law and, and we have kind of declined fully into that level of. I don't even mean this like, as a pejorative to those countries, but third worldism in the way a lot of times that this, what you need to get kind of third world economies up and going, and the successful ones are, you know, they institute rule of law. The. The leader of the country no longer can be Paid off and cannot like pay off his children and doesn't have his son in law running things. That's how you build trust in the system and then that's how you get business and money into the system. This is just kind of basic stuff and we're going the other way. He said about his kids, almost anything they do, they have inside information. And he kind of starts rambling and he's like, if they buy a cupcake company, then the cupcake company has a contract with somebody. And he's just like, we don't have to care about it, we don't care about it. Like the upshot of this, like they're going to have inside information about everything and who knows exactly what's happening? This is why you have to have an investigation. Like who is doing these investments? Did they have inside information? Sure seems like it. I don't know. I didn't buy a bunch of stocks the day before you did the pause on the tariffs. So maybe it's luck, but. And I do think that like just going into on the pure like financial corruption is to your point. I think both easy to explain to people as a political matter that I also I think is just important and like safeguarding the future of the Republic just to be like, hey, we can't do this anymore, like this isn't going to be allowed next time they're going to be held to account for this just on that level. I think that obviously investigating it is important and holding them accountable based on what is found. But that's I think a pretty compelling impeachment case for me.
- [08:53]
Bill Kristol
You know, I think about it when the founders used the word corruption, which they use about the Republic in general, they also mean just corruption. And they understood right from the beginning this is, as you say, how corrupt monarchies and other kinds of despotisms work. It's an aspect of the broader corruption. But maybe I was understating it a little. It's a kind of important aspect. Right? The financial corruption is an important part of the broader political and social corruption. Really?
- [09:19]
Tim Miller
Yeah. I think you've been more pro impeachment than me from the start. I don't know if this was about being beaten down by the last time or there's like one part of me that's just a little bit like what's the point? There's a little bit of that element to it. What is impeachment anymore? He got elected back again. How is it different than a sternly worded letter? At some level there's that argument that kind of bounces around my head. And then there's the strategic argument, which I think is not nothing, which is you don't want to signal to people, if the Democrats get back in power, that their only priority is re retribution against Trump. Like you do want to signal to people that, you know, the thing that they care the most about, they want to spend time on is ensuring that, you know, that their lives are made better. And maybe there's a way to tie the corruption to that, which is, you know, hold Trump accountable so that you can, you know, focus those resources on actually helping the forgotten man or the working man and woman in America. Both of those points, I think, are not totally invalid. I think that that's a worthwhile thing to think about and to discuss if you're Hakeem Jeffries and his crew or whoever is making those calls next year, presuming the Democrats get back in power. And I think the point that I was making earlier just that for there to be any hope for repair, you kind of have to say, no, there is a line and it's been, well, pass crossed. And this is how the system works. And just because we know that there aren't going to be any honorable Republicans, you know, who go along with this does not mean that we are not going to do our obligation to the law and to the Constitution by going through impeachment. That's kind of where I've landed. I don't know where you're at in
- [11:01]
Bill Kristol
the 20 seconds I thought before tweeting about impeach and convict, I thought it's kind of a division of labor thing. I do think people like us, if Hakeem Jeffries calls me after he watches this podcast later today and says, well, should I be talking and encouraging my members to be talking more about impeachment? I'm not sure for the reason you said. I'm not sure I would say yes. And even if he calls me on January 5th or whatever of 2027 as speaker and says, should we move ahead on it? I don't expect him to, but if he were to, I'm not sure what I would say, because that's a different role. I do think our role is to sort of tell the truth, obviously, and to be a little provocative, but this is being provocative and telling the truth. So I'm happy to at least get the idea out there. It's important that people understand. I think that he deserves to be impeached. As a practical matter, people deserve all kinds of things and deserve various punishments and People decide not to impose them for prudential reasons. But it's important to bring home just how terrible what's happening is.
- [11:58]
Tim Miller
I guess we don't know how many Democratic senators there are they'll end up being. But there's no doubt that there would be 20 Republican senators who would gladly go along with an impeachment process of a Democratic politician if their sons were invested in, you know, 14 different rare earth mineral companies around the world. And, you know, we're doing illegal stock trades with what seems to be insider information and, you know, go on and on. Like, there's just no doubt that these Republicans would go along with it if it wasn't for Trump. Part of it then for me also is when you go back to that strategic question, I think that there's a risk, I think that if Democrats, alongside of this, strategically need to also demonstrate to Americans that they care about their concerns, not just going after Trump. But I think also there's a strategic benefit of making the Republicans defend this nonsense. Like, really, like you think this is okay for the president and his family to enrich himself at levels like totally unimaginable in past White Houses, totally beyond anything that you criticized about Hunter Biden or anybody else. I think that's a worthwhile pressure campaign to put on them.
- [13:09]
Bill Kristol
And also the emoluments and gifts and bribes, if we can call it that, from foreign governments and I guess foreign companies too, that's kind of worth bringing home. Right? I was thinking, I think, Dan, if you mentioned Banana Republic earlier, if it came to my mind as you were talking about, about third, Third world countries, I don't know what the origin of that phrase is. People can look it up. Obviously, these places in Central America and Latin America, I guess, grew bananas. Grow bananas. But also, I think part of the phrase comes from the fact that we, the United Fruit Company or whatever, participated in the corruption of their, the will and corruption, I guess I would say, of their governments, of their dictators by in effect, cutting deals with them to get good commercial deals. So we used to be on the side of something we didn't, weren't proud of. But we did it for whatever. We let our companies do it at some point. We passed laws, I think in the 70s to stop American companies from this kind of behavior. But it did happen for quite a while. But it's bad enough to do it and we stopped it doing it. It's worse to be on the other end.
- [14:02]
Tim Miller
It's pathetic, right?
- [14:03]
Bill Kristol
I mean, we're like, Qatar is like the old Us and we're like the old I don't even know what country to in south Guatemala or someone who United Fruit Hunt bribed, right?
- [14:14]
Tim Miller
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- [16:54]
Bill Kristol
What about that Iran war? That doesn't seem to come up a whole lot there over the last several days. This thing that Trump went hegseth they were so, so proud of. This was America. We were pulverizing and obliterating everyone. We were back this. No other president has ever done this. The American military has never done anything like this for 200 years. Suddenly we're having this giant celebration of July 4th. Did Trump even. I don't, I didn't watch his speech as we were saying earlier, so I don't know if he mentioned it even. I don't hear a lot of talk about it though. Just as well since it was a humiliating defeat, actually.
- [17:22]
Tim Miller
But yeah, we'll see how much talk about it there is at the NATO summit. I guess it's good that Trump's going. Maybe not though.
- [17:30]
Bill Kristol
I don't know.
- [17:30]
Tim Miller
That's the low bar. And he could have just totally given up on NATO by now. I was pretty struck. The Europeans have been pretty good and we've had a lot of compliments of the Europeans on Bill and Tim Monday. They've been surprisingly strong willed, I think, in the Trump second term. And they've been stalwart in support of Ukraine. And standing up Trump on Iran, I think was pretty noteworthy. Even still, you get the kind of little weak knee European nature comes up from time to time. This is playbook this morning. I was just reading it. These are a couple various quotes and sentences about the lead up to the meeting tonight. European NATO allies are pulling out all the stops to prevent a Trump blow up. The mood in the run up to the summit is poised, but with a sense of foreboding. While European governments have on paper done everything they can to keep Trump happy, a last minute surprise can't be ruled out. European allies will be holding their breath as Trump heads to Ankara. Do they have to do all this? Maybe Trump should be holding his breath. Why are they letting him be the protagonist of the story? He's the outsider anyway. That was a little bit annoying. We'll see exactly what they're going to focus on. I'm sure, Trump will bluster on spending money and complain about the lack of support in Iran, but unclear what tangible might come of it.
- [19:00]
Bill Kristol
Maybe these European ambassadors just saying things to an American media outlet that they know Trump will read or read about and sort of want to make Trump feel important and that they really want him to be behave. I guess they do want him to behave. They still, they're still in the game which I don't blame them for if like keeping on board as long as possible. And I do think on Ukraine it's a practical concern that they just. He seems to be annoyed at Putin. He's seems to be less intent on damaging Zelensky and Ukraine. That's the one thing the Europeans have stepped up the most on and it's the most important thing. So I give them a certain amount of leeway here. But I. Yeah, one bristol is when one reads that. But and Ukraine, I think Ukraine will be the big story. I mean how much do they do for Zelensky will be there. How much do they do for Ukraine? How much does Trump get in the way? The second story after Zelensky is Magyar being there I think representing Hungary. So I guess I said this in morning shots. I'm going to listen to Zelenskyy and Magyar speak for American ideals and kind of just try to avoid listening to Trump.
- [20:02]
Tim Miller
Supposedly Trump had a call with both Putin and Zelenskyy in the lead up to this thought that was interesting. The Telegraph reported this sourcing on this is a little shaky. I think it's worth at least mentioning the United States has supposedly warned Poland that Russia could be preparing a military provocation aimed at testing NATO's resolve and weakening Western support for Ukraine. This is kind of single source to a Polish outlet through a Polish source. And so it's kind of thing where it's like who in the United States did this? It's kind of unclear like kind of how high level this tip off is. But I don't know, it just gave me a little flashback to these types of stories were sprouting up before the Ukraine war where we were, where our intelligence services were warning Ukraine this was real. And, and some people weren't taking that seriously in Europe and even in Ukraine. And then you know, we saw it happened. So like Russia is just getting obliterated on the front line. And there is, there's been some reports that, you know, things inside the Kremlin maybe aren't as happy as they were. It doesn't seem crazy to me that like Putin would Try some other gambit to try to change the kind of narrative, change the momentum around what's happening.
- [21:20]
Bill Kristol
I mean, I gather from some friends who are more in touch than I am with European diplomats or even European, you know, intelligence officials and so forth. They've been to Europe recently at conferences that the Europeans seem pretty concerned. I take it this is partly based on their own intelligence about Putin trying to recover from what's happening on the front with Ukraine by doing something either in Poland or maybe in the Baltic states. And maybe not a full fledged invasion, but, you know, a lot of troublemaking and false flag type operations. This may be a subset of that, you know.
- [21:50]
Tim Miller
Yeah, I just think that's important context in the lead up to the NATO summit, in that it's kind of one of those obvious statements. But it would be nice to know for sure that the United States President was aligned with Poland and aligned with our European allies in the event that something like this happened. Because Putin doesn't have the guys for a full invasion. We're just seeing what's happening in Ukraine. They just couldn't do it successfully. What could be successful is a provocation that yields what Trump and others of his ilk starting to be like, well, this isn't worth it anymore. We can see the escalation is happening. Like, it's time to back off. Right. And that would be the gambit. And hard to have confidence that our president would not fold to that gambit. Y' all know that I'm not really the DIY type when it comes to home improvements. There's this home improvement show I was watching with this gay couple. They're from Detroit. Dang. I'm blanking on the name of the show, but they're from Michigan. Then they did a New Orleans season, and I'm jealous. I wish I was a DIY gay, but I'm not. And I still like the redesigning part of the house. I still like Zhu Jing, still like making things nicer and more fresh and, you know, doing the shopping part, I like the shopping part. The DIY part, not as much. And our friends at Three Day Blinds give me everything I need to ensure that I can do the shopping and enjoy it and not have to do the execution. What a win. Three Day Blinds is the leading manufacturer of high quality custom window treatments in the U.S. and right now, if you use my URL, three day blinds.com the bulwark. They're running a buy one, get one 50% off deal. We can shop for almost anything at home. Why not? Shop for blinds at home too. 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I'm trying to have guests on who are smarter than me on things I'm learning with the audience. There are a couple things that I have a pretty astute ear about. I do want to mention them because they both came to a head over the weekend. The first is my friend Mallory McMorrow dropped out of the Senate race in Michigan. She was, I don't know, maybe three months ago now at the top. And it was basically a three way coin flip. I had lunch with somebody I don't know in the spring at some point was very deeply involved in that race. Not in the McMorrow camp who understood all the polling. And at that time they said to me it's a three way coin flip. It's totally even. Like I could hear the argument that McMorra is leading or not. Iran war starts. Abdul Al Said starts really leaning into anti war stuff. He has Hasan Piker and some other DSA types come to visit. The third way puts out a like a demand that all candidates condemn Hasan Piker and condemn these people on the left that have said things that, you know, are anti American or anti Semitic whatever. And McMurray does condemns El Said for having Piker there. That was like one small kind of Internet thing. But that leads to like this broader skirmish of kind of a left right attack where Stevens is not being attacked that much the more the Chuck Schumer supported candidate, the AIPAC supported candidate and McMorrow and Saeed start attacking each other and if anything it will have no effect. Worst case scenario will boomerang back on the candidates that you're trying to pressure. Like this is. Even if you're right in the principle, like even if you grant everything they said about whoever else that he campaigned with and that they're a bad person, it's still a dumb strategy. And that obviously bore fruit and turned out like Democratic voters right now are like not interested in hearing their candidates decide that they want to pick fights with people on the, on the far left flank. Like it's. That there will be a time for that, there'll be a moment for that. Like potentially if you want to have that fight, maybe It'll be the 2028 primary, we'll see. But like that is not what they're interested in. It was stupid. And we lived through this. I said this the whole time. Like we lived through this. Again, if you're taking outside the morals, you're just trying to win. Like all this is, is your interest group who's trying to help the candidates that you prefer ideologically win. Who did well in the tea party time? McConnell. Mitch McConnell did well. Not the, not, not the people in the party that decided that they wanted to go take a full on head on fight with the Tea Party people. They lost. Eric Cantor lost. Like how did McConnell survive? McConnell survived by like being strategic, being smart, sometimes adapting the, you know, to appeal to the Tea Party. Right. Other times picking spots to find weak opponents to go after on weak topics. Like going after the DSA left on over war in Israel. Like right when Israel is getting us into a stupid war was moronic. It was, you were fighting from your weakest possible perch at the worst times anyway. Okay, so they're out. And I think it sucks because I think that Mallory would have been the best candidate. I think that both El Said and Haley are imperfect candidates for different reasons. And you know, I just, I want people to be smart and I don't think it means that they have to swallow their principles or not say what they think. But it's just like the Democratic voters right now are looking for people that are anti status quo, that are going to fight Trump, that have their eye on the ball, that are focused on the real enemy and they're looking for people that are demonstrating that they're gonna be against stupid wars, that they're gonna care about their economic. Like every focus group Sarah does says it, every poll says it. And like picking this factional fight right now is both dumb strategy and it's just wrong. Like, it's not. It's the wrong fight to have right now, even outside of kind of the more Machiavellian political concerns. So there's my rant about the Michigan Senate race. I'm. It's in sorrow, not in anger, that I talk about Mallory getting out of the race. And I think she'll. She'll come back. She was fine. Like her, her personal brand, I don't think is hurt. And I think that she can run for a statewide office in Michigan in the future and be. And be fine. So I don't. Do you have anything to add or rebut?
- [28:58]
Bill Kristol
No, except the general. You know, people should calm down and accept that it's a big party. Mitch McConnell, you know, example is interesting. I was thinking back to those years. He at times accommodated the Tea Party, he at times fought them, raised a ton of money to defeat some of their candidates in key Senate races. Remember that Mississippi race rooms that I
- [29:16]
Tim Miller
was going to use the Mr.
- [29:16]
Bill Kristol
Example, Chris McDaniel, Cochran, who was not. Cochran, who was not in great shape at that point. I have to be sad, but it's
- [29:22]
Tim Miller
like Chris McDaniel is a racist talk radio host. And it's like they went at him and they went at him aggressively, and they used very smart strategy. It was kind of a pincer attack. They brought in some black voters to vote in the primary to defeat him. And it was a very sophisticated strategy to go after one of the weaker Tea Party people. And like you mentioned, and there are other times where they just endorse the call.
- [29:44]
Bill Kristol
I mean, I think it was a couple of percentage points they were able to save Cochran at that point. And then if I was thinking about 2010, I think it was 2012, maybe protege of McConnell's Trey Grayson, who I knew slightly at the time, ran for the Senate, the open Senate seat. I guess it was against Rand Paul. And rand Paul clobbered McConnell's guy Grayson in the primary. And then McConnell wasn't thrilled about that. But, you know, he decided, okay, Rand Paul's my colleague from Kentucky. I don't love him, but, you know, got to make the thing work. And McConnell was a pretty effective, better or worse majority leader, minority leader, then majority leader for the next, I don't know, 10, 12 years, and had Rand Paul's vote when he needed it on almost everything except the one or two issues where Paul really, you know, had
- [30:27]
Tim Miller
a principal and partnered with Rand and stayed on. And this is the same thing with Rubio. Again, it was like they had Crist initially at the time, and then, and then Rubio runs as a Tea Party person and it's like, you know, McConnell didn't, you know, go whole hog going after him and look at where Rubio is now. Right. So I just, yeah, like there are times to have the fight. This was not the right time, particularly given the topic of the war. And El said, again, say what you want about him, like, has been we're on a pretty effective campaign and Mike Murphy, who is much more irascible and grumpy than me and much less willing to kind of hand it to the left side of the Democratic Party when he still is a Republican, good standing. I've been watching, I've been listening to his analysis about this and he's like, I'll say it is the best politician in the race. Like he doesn't have the baggage that like some of maybe those House candidates in New York did from the DSA side. You know, Murphy's not rooting for him. But it just as an analysis standpoint, it's like you have to look at the field and say, okay, you know, maybe I'll say this is going to be offensive to both sides is more of a Rubio, you know, and less of a Chris McDaniel. Right. And so then you have to, you know, assess it from that, from that vantage point. So you also have to know what kind of year and what cycle it is. And I think that in a different year, I think I'll say it would be a pretty risky bet in Michigan. I'm like less convinced that that's the case this year, like in the first Trump midterm. I mean, is he slightly more risky than Stevens? Probably slightly more, but I don't, I'm not convinced, like a lot more. And I'm not sure anybody's like demonstrated that.
- [32:06]
Bill Kristol
Yeah, Mike knows Murphy knows Michigan well. He grew up there and ran the Englo campaigns there and the Spence Abraham campaign. So he knows that keeps a close eye on that state. I like that. Your idea that you're. What would you claim you are? You're mostly right or sometimes right. Yeah, I'm going to be occasionally right, sometimes one notch below you. You know, JVL up there and you always know or claim to be always right category. But in my occasionally right Persona, I've always thought Stevens was a stronger candidate than people thought just because she's such an experienced and tough candidate, tough minded candidate with a good team and all that. And I kind of think she's, I mean If I had to bet, I'd bet on her defeating Al Said in the primary. But in a way, if you were designing things, McMurray is kind of the best of the three because she's, she captures a lot of the young change side of things without Al said, you know, being so far alive. So I don't know, but I don't know what's going to happen, I hope. Well, we'll see what happens, right?
- [33:02]
Tim Miller
Yeah. And the black vote is another thing that is subtext to all this, you know, which is you got to do well with black voters in the Democratic primary. And I do think McMurray was struggling there then. I think that's kind of unrelated to that other tactical element that I was talking about. And, you know, I think that's something people are going to be continually reminded of as you head up to 2028. Discourse. Okay, Tim. And sometimes right. Number two, Michael Cohen, Donald Trump's fixer, a resistance star for a while. The resistance, certain resistance outlets loved Michael Cohen and they wanted to welcome him in and talk about how great he was and give him shows. He is back in Trump's good graces. Who could have predicted. Oh, wait, I did. WABC owner John Katsimatidis said Cohen and Trump have smoothed things over. He offered him a radio show on wabc. Katsu Matida says, I checked with the White House. They had no objection.
- [34:03]
Bill Kristol
What a wonderful world we live in. You're running a media outlet. And he just says, as if it's. Of course. I checked with the White House to make sure they didn't have a problem.
- [34:12]
Tim Miller
Cohen gave a quote, I was told the president gave me a glowing recommendation for this gig because he believes I'm going to be the next Rush Limbaugh. We all have our weaknesses. We like being told that we're right. We like having our biases flattered. This has benefited some of the ever terms. I'll be honest about it. It's fun. A lot of Democrats like coming to us. They're like, see, one of the things they like about this is see Bill Kristol, who I always used to agree, disagree with when he was on this week, now says I'm right. Okay. You also have to use your judgment. I never had Michael Cohen on the show. I will have people on the show that have Trumpy views. I might this week, as a matter of fact, but as long as they're not bullshitting me, we cannot have people that are completely full of shit that have their for sale sign up, that are obviously Going to go back and forth depending on what is convenient. That was true about Cohen. Cohen was not like, he got slumped in with us. This is why maybe it's a little bit offensive at times. He's not like the Never Trumpers who. Some of us never supported Trump, you and me, or others who, like, reluctantly were on the outskirts and then came around people who are young, like Sarah Matthews, who went in there and then saw it was gross and came out. That was my. Michael Cohen was Trump's fucking bag man. He was his bag man. Like, he was doing gross, disgusting, illegal, corrupt things on behalf of Trump for decades. I was never. Was never really convinced that that MO had changed, you know? And then you go on the shows, it's like, it's the end of Trump. It's like, okay, all right. He is what we thought he was. So Michael Cohen off. So if you ever wonder why has it not. Tim had Random Resistance superstar on the show. Maybe. Maybe the Michael Cohen lesson is one of why. Any other thoughts on that before we move on?
- [35:57]
Bill Kristol
You know, I don't know if I was ever on anything with him. Maybe there were one or two, like, shows I didn't control, so to speak, where, you know, like, zooms or whatever. I found myself on with him. And I guess we were cordial enough. But I do recall I worried someone, I'll double check this. And maybe I once went on. He asked me to be on his. He had a podcast, I think, and he asked me to be on a million times, Many, many, many times, and was kind of offended. I was just politely said, I think I'll pass. You know, I didn't say anything about why. And then he got kind of bristly, as I vaguely recall from our brief exchanges on DMs, I think on Twitter or at the time, or whatever it was, I think I never went on the show. So I'm with you in being that one, too. You were good. You had good sense on that.
- [36:39]
Tim Miller
My summer vacation is almost here. I can't wait. I need the time to relax and unwind. I'm going to shut down the Twitter machine. You guys are going to have to hold me accountable for that. I want you looking, I want you spying on my Twitter account, seeing if I even do any retweets. Retweets are also not going to be allowed. So one thing I'm trying to do as I prepare for my restful no Twitter European vacation is a little bit of language, work some fun with our sponsors at Babbel. If you're traveling this summer. Here's a real travel hack. Don't wait until you land to start learning the language. Instead, try babbel. Even just 10 minutes a day with Babbel can help you start having real conversations in as little as three weeks. Instead of memorizing random vocab, you're learning phrases you'd use ordering dinner, asking for directions, or talking with the locals. Stuff you can actually use to make the trip smoother and more fun and more fulfilling. I like the babble for real life. No vocab lists or verb charts, just real conversation. Practice lessons are quick, practical and built by more than 200 language experts. I've been doing them at the dinner table. When you go into a restaurant with my daughter. The period between ordering and the food getting there can sometimes be dicey. With children. Babble. That's a nice way to fill it. Now we're learning French words together. If you got summer travel coming up, right now is the time to start so you can actually use what you learn on the trip. Babbel is offering listeners up to 60% off. Go to babbel.com bulwark that's b a B-B-E-L.com bulwark for up to 60% off. Rules and restrictions may apply. Speaking of just really on the media corruption thing you mentioned with the WABC reminded me there's another story that's been kind of happening in the background, which is there continued to be a right wing effort to take away the licenses of these local ABC TV stations. This all kind of burst into public over the Jimmy Kimmel element where Brendan Carr was threatening. One of the. I think the most pernicious parts about that is he was threatening these local ABC affiliates where the government does still have licensing power and saying, hey, if you don't take him off the air, we're going to challenge these licenses. And then Kimmel gets back on the air. But that part of it continues. And you have this media research center who has one of the stupid Bozell kids that runs ones that they're well funded though on the right and they have like a lawsuit against these local stations or a challenge against these local stations saying that they're doing communist propaganda and you know, who the hell knows what else. And it's just worth noting that like that pressure from the White House on media outlets where they have power is still ongoing.
- [39:19]
Bill Kristol
And you know, Brendan Carr is a good example. I don't follow very closely, but I know a tiny bit about what he's doing at the fcc. This is a term they use, a stupid term. I always say all of government. We have an all of government foreign policy on whatever, something, you know, get the Treasury Department into Commerce. Everyone's involved in some effort. This was used a lot during the early days of the war in Iraq and the war on terror and then to some degree on Ukraine. And it's true. It's just the phrase is a little bit pompous and pretentious. Trump has an awe of government assault on his opponents. It's not like it's only the White House or Stephen Miller or, or Blanchard's Justice Department regulatory agencies that we don't think about a lot and then mostly have been pretty passive or ineffectual over the recent decades. You might even say they're involved. And as you say. And each of these things adds up, right? Brendan Carr is not quite as scary as having the FBI or the Justice Department chasing you down or maybe having our friend there at odni, you know, trying to find you and prosecute you. But it's not nothing if you're running a local TV station, right? The degree to which they have done pretty good job from their point of view. But again, this is Orban ish, right? And Putinish. Every part of the government, they're going after you from many different angles at once.
- [40:28]
Tim Miller
When I had John Ganz on, he had his jock creep theory of fascism. And we're noting that there are a lot more jocks in this administration than creeps, but Brendan Carr definitely fits in the creep category. I'm not sure how much there is to say about the story, but it's so shocking I have to mention it. So this is Bullock podcast, Gus, True crime. An Idaho mother was charged with the murders of her 18 month old twins a year after suggesting their deaths were the result of vaccinations. Days after the kids, a boy and a girl, were found dead, Shaw and her husband appeared on a podcast produced by RFK's Children Health Defense Fund, the anti vaccine organization. I mean, that is just horrifying and astonishing that that is now the Secretary of Health and Human Services. Like what?
- [41:21]
Bill Kristol
Well, that's another aspect. The going after opponents is pervasive in the government. I don't know what to call this exactly. I don't know the right word for this is. But the being adjacent to true, truly detestable and despicable actions, not to say criminal actions, that's also pretty pervasive in this administration, right?
- [41:39]
Tim Miller
It is. And it also just is the danger. This is Obviously something that is much more acute on the right, but occasionally, you know, we see in left media and that. I like to comment on why this is important. Like participating in conspiracy theory culture is dangerous in ways. It's hard to predict. Just as. And like, you get into this world where you have people that are. Are mentally unwell and they attach onto your conspiracy theories, and something like this happens. I mean, this is not wholly unconnected. Kind of what the situation was with Tina Peters. And obviously, Tina Peters didn't murder somebody, but what was the underlying corrupt act in that story? Well, it was that she was so convinced that the elections were stolen that she tried to rig the machines herself or go into the machines to get proof of it against the rules, that that type of thing happens. Right. People become so convinced of something, they try to make it through. It's not. It's Pizzagate, right? It's the guy showing up to the basement of the pizza parlor with a gun. When, like, you participate in this type of conspiracy culture and advance these conspiracies, like, you know, it should not be surprising what. What comes of it. Should we end with soccer? Are there any other burning stories that you have on your mind that you want to. You want to cover?
- [42:55]
Bill Kristol
No, no, no. We've covered them.
- [42:57]
Tim Miller
So. Great England Mexico game last night was very fun to watch. The Brits now head against the Norwegians. I noticed in your Twitter feed there's a historic reference about the last time the Brits and the Norwegians met. What do you know about The Battle of 1066, the Battle of Haze?
- [43:14]
Bill Kristol
I don't know. But some Brit, needless to say, was talking about how they lost that battle. They defeated the Vikings in that battle. They then lost to William the Conqueror coming from France, so they still have to make up for their French defeat. But he's hoping that they defeat Norway for the first time in. In a millennium, I suppose.
- [43:30]
Tim Miller
The Battle of the Stamford Bridge.
- [43:32]
Bill Kristol
Yeah.
- [43:33]
Tim Miller
That Norwegian dude Haaland is a beast, though. I've been intrigued by that. So the. The joy that has been brought to the World cup similarly to the Knicks. Joy.
- [43:43]
Bill Kristol
Yeah.
- [43:44]
Tim Miller
Donald Trump obviously has to try to ruin everything and, like, involve himself in everything. We cannot. There's no part of the human existence that Donald Trump does not want to get his little tentacles onto his little tiny little orange digits. He wants to touch everything and make everything tainted by his burnt orange aura. And as such, it has happened here. The American player gets. I don't fucking know. I'm not a soccer person. Seemed like a Pretty ticky tack red card to me. If you get a red card, you can't play in the next match. People, I think, seem to be rightly outraged about this to me. So he was going to be out for the game against Belgium, which takes place this evening. The FIFA which gave Trump, you might remember, the FIFA Peace Prize. I don't know if they've given anyone a FIFA prize for literature or science yet, but they have handed out a FIFA Peace prize to Donald Trump. They rescinded the red card. It had only happened one time before in 1960, something to a Brazilian. And Trump is now taking credit for this, kind of cheekily said that they called FIFA. There's kind of conflicting reports on how many times he called and how aggressive he was, et cetera. I kind of don't care. But it's unfortunate. The right thing to do, somebody that is not a megalomaniac like Trump, even if he did call, the right thing to do would be to say he did not. If you were to say that righteousness prevailed here, you know, that the player had not committed the red card, and so it was smart of FIFA to rescind it and honorable and fair, but that's not what they're going for. Fair play. So anyway, he's back, which is good news for the Americans. But I don't know, it's, you know, similarly to Trump showing up to game. Game 4 of the Knicks finals is. Is my comparison.
- [45:36]
Bill Kristol
I mean, it seemed like a ticky tacky red card. And. And we joked in the morning shots. I think on Thursday morning, Trump's. Whatever it was. Trump's a mob boss. He should be arranging this stuff. We didn't really think he would. I mean, if you were. Incidentally, if he wanted to do this in a way that didn't make one kind of conflicted almost about watching him here. If it's a bad call, they probably should have let it. Gone by the rules of the game. Once the call was made and everyone was preparing for a game in which he wouldn't play. If he was going to do it, he could have done it through an intermediary. And that head of FIFA is such a tool and he's such a toady to Trump that he probably would have made it happen anyway. But Trump can't resist. He has to let it be known that he personally called and he's been on top of this and all that. So I think that's the head of FIFA, that guy they've put on, I got to say, the World Cup's been terrific. So someone, some people at FIFA know what they're doing. But that guy who runs it, whose name is escaping me, he seems like a total creep. And someone had a funny comment on Twitter. Maybe this was Tommy Vitor or someone like that, or one of the guys from the. One of the Obama people. Did the contract with Fox require that we have a. That they move. They show us this head of FIFA who no one cares about.
- [46:45]
Tim Miller
Infantino.
- [46:46]
Bill Kristol
Infantino watching the game from the stands every 30 minutes. It's really ludicrous. They go to him more often. To their credit, they don't seem to go to politicians, they don't interview politicians. And you get a pretty straight 90 minutes of soccer or football, as they say, and you get good commentary by former great soccer players. But that Infantino guy could do without you.
- [47:06]
Tim Miller
It's kind of how I feel about Ruda too. As we go to NATO. It's like, I understand that sometimes as part of your job, you have to deal with this asshole that our country elected president twice and that there's certain things that you need to do to kind of make things move along. But some people suck up to him with a little too much relish, and it's in the eye of the beholder. But for me, both Infantino and Ruda have fallen on the wrong side of the relish line. And it's like they seem to be enjoying it. They seem to kind of like it in the end and maybe even like Trump. Some of these people come to like Trump and it seems like that happened to Bill Maher. Like they get there and there's something about them that appeals. I'm lucky. I don't have that gene at all.
- [47:53]
Bill Kristol
I could see it. He was a successful con man for all those decades. And con men always have some ability to get people to like them. Right? That's how the con works, I think. And the one time he called me in 2015 after I wrote the initial Weekly Standard editorial saying we could never, of course, support Trump. But I actually then argued this was, I guess June, July of 2015, suggested that politicians probably could learn something from Trump's success. There's more of a mood out there. And some of us realized that was one of the few things, one of my occasionally correct points. But I said, of course we could never support Trump. And Trump called me. I think I told this and said, oh no, you'll come around, Bill, and all this. And he has that kind of jocular, back slapping, kind of New Yorky manner on the phone. That I wasn't deeply moved. I wasn't moved at all by it, I will say. But I remember thinking when I hung up or put down my phone, my, that I could see how he can sort of get people to think, ah, Kahi's not a bad guy, you know, kind of a back slapping sort of type of thing.
- [48:50]
Tim Miller
Just objectively, that's a good interpersonal trait. As somebody like you and me who write about people in the public eye or tweet about people in the public eye, occasionally, there's a much less appealing trait of other famous people, which is when you do that to call and like, bitch and moan and talk about how unfair it is and try to work you over and it's like, okay, and that's a turn off. And if you're somebody like me, when someone does that, that makes me want to shit on you more. So it backfires. And so Trump does it in a way that's like, he's also hurt, he's also complaining. Right. But you said the jocular. It's just a better interpersonal way to handle it. And so he just, by all accounts, like, in private, he wins people over that way.
- [49:36]
Bill Kristol
I mean, he also has the other, the other side, of course, as well. He'll berate and scream and yell and threaten and of course, after all that Dracula, my Dracula conversation with me, spend the next three years trying and succeeding ultimately in getting the Weekly Standard closed down. So, you know, overstate. I don't overstate how charming, how charming
- [49:51]
Tim Miller
and Dracula he is.
- [49:52]
Bill Kristol
But, but I, but I, but I did get a felt, I get a glimpse there, why he's got some people who I remember at the time thinking, how could they even work for him? Thinking, I guess maybe he's just. They discount all the horrible things and they find it sort of entertaining or amusing or whatever. Flattering, I suppose.
- [50:09]
Tim Miller
Me too. I want to be abundantly clear. Just a couple of things from this podcast as we close. I was not comparing Abdul Said or any of the left Democrats to the racist radio host in Mississippi. So I'm using a analogy about how to handle popular insurgents within a party. Okay, that's all. And learning from good strategies, I just want to be abundantly clear about that. I also want to be clear, I don't find Trump particularly charming or jocular myself. I think that actually it's a sign of deep weakness to be sucked in by such transparent efforts to win people over. That said, other people in politics could learn from the idea about how you win people over via private conversations by using that strategy rather than the bitching and moaning strategy. That's all I'm saying. No need to get mad. You can get mad if you want. I take feedback. I was very right on this podcast. So please in the comments, let me know all the ways in which I was wrong as well to keep me humble. Bill Kristol, thank you. Appreciate you very much coming in on this Monday, Go USA tonight against the Belgians. And they do have yummy waffles. But besides that, thumbs down for Belgium tonight and we'll be back tomorrow. Could be a spicy one tomorrow. We'll see. See you all then. Peace. The Borg Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper, with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.