← The Bulwark Podcast
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- [00:00]
Ryan Seacrest
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- [00:31]
Bill Kristol
Foreign.
- [00:44]
Tim Miller
Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. It is Monday. It's one of those Mondays where, you know, it makes me wish, I don't know, I was a gardener or something. You know, Bill, having to wake up and, and read about the Hector Mountain Dew Camacho event at the White House last night and gather the stamina to come up with an opinion about it, you know, whatever. And there, there are a lot worse jobs out there in America, but it's a bit of a burden.
- [01:10]
Bill Kristol
That's why you get the big bucks, Tim. You know, I myself just read, you know, watched another hour of Nick celebrations in New York City. I'm kind of tuned out of the same bond.
- [01:19]
Tim Miller
My, my hometown huge Knicks win. Happy for the next. We'll talk about the goodness of America at the end. But unfortunately, Donald Trump is forcing some other stuff on us. Just because I can't begin with the White House nonsense. We have to start with the real news, which was, well, maybe it's real news. I guess that's something to ponder over. The deal, if you will. The deal about a deal. The memorandum about a deal that Donald Trump felt compelled to announce on his birthday yesterday, his 80th birthday. I don't know if you know that he's 80 years old, the president of the United States, extremely elderly, and he announced at his birthday party that they have a memorandum of understanding with Iran. We seem to get nothing out of that. They are planning on having a formal signing in Switzerland on Friday. We'll see if it holds till then. We got a lot to discuss about the contours of that. But, Bill, what are your initial thoughts?
- [02:18]
Bill Kristol
Yeah, I mean, we've acknowledged our defeat. I mean, Trump won't acknowledge it, but every normal person looking at this deal sees that at best, we've sort of walked away with a tiny bit of face, saving from a misguided adventure, a misbegotten war that we've lost, that we failed, failed to achieve our objectives. We strengthened Iran and weakened ourselves. I mean, I really do think that's pretty obvious and clear. So there are details with the nuclear stuff and all, but in a way that's all of that, as you say, is murky. Trump's putting his best spin on it. But at the end of the day, Iran has closed the strait, paid no price for it and really retains the option, I would say, of doing so in the future. We'll see exactly what the deal says, if it says anything exact about the street being open. That part I think the media has been the most credulous about. Trump says the streets reopened. Okay, I guess the states, it's back to where it was before. It's not back to where it was before. At best it's temporarily opened again. And Iran, I believe, has not given away it's the option in the future of closing it or imposing various prices and conditions on transit there. So that's bad. The nuclear stuff's totally resolved. They're going to get money out of this, maybe not directly from us, but from the uae. The regime is solidly in place. The Iranian people have been betrayed and we've, you know, antagonized allies all over the world by either ignoring them at the beginning or berating them afterwards. I think especially in the Middle east, the Gulf states are just, you know, they can't say it but they're, they're in a state. And we'll be looking to accommodate Iran on the one hand, but also get closer to China, perhaps more reliable aid in times of, of trouble. Final point, there'll be misleading photos and vibes from the G7 meeting the trumps route to in France. Our allies are going to put the best face on this. They still are in the mode of we've got to kind of buy time here as the US Withdraws from the world and from responsibility and try to keep Trump kind of on board for as long as possible. So there'll be a lot of happy talk about how this is kind of an okay outcome, but they don't believe it.
- [04:25]
Tim Miller
To your point about the strait, there was an accidental truth spoken by the vice president this morning on cnbc. He's doing the rounds where he said this. Well, our expectation is that the strait is going to be opened in a toll free way for the long term. And that's the sort of thing that we're going to figure out in these technical negotiations. I thought we had a deal. We're still doing Technical negotiations. Wasn't that what you're supposed to do before you made an announcement that there was a deal where the strait is opened here with, as Donald Trump said
- [04:55]
Bill Kristol
yesterday, that's a good word, a good Trumpy word. He likes that word.
- [05:00]
Tim Miller
So he just likes big, fancy words, you know, to make sense.
- [05:03]
Bill Kristol
He does love those, right? Fake, legalistic kind of fancy words. I hadn't seen Vance at that this morning. It's very revealing, as you say, the notion that that's something we're going to discuss, whether the straits really open. That's supposed to be like a core red line of us and of all of our allies. Right. That is the status quo ante. It hadn't been closed for 40 years. It was treated as an international waterway. No one thought of it as anything. We are now going to sort of debate that with Iran, which will have all the leverage, incidentally, as we're busy getting out of there. Right. They're sitting right there. So that's a very good illustration. I wish that. I wish I'd seen that this morning. I could have added that to the morning shots. But no, I could barely keep up with Trump's tweets, let alone like Vance is going out to. Why is Vance. You've done this stuff for a living at one time, as I did a little bit, too. Why is Vance going on tv? I guess. Does he want to go on TV and sell it, or is Trump making him do it?
- [05:53]
Tim Miller
Well, I saw him on two. I don't have like one of those TV situations in my bedroom where I have every channel on. So it's possible he did another network, but he at least did CNBC and cbs. I assume he did CBS as a favor to their daddy, Larry Ellison, who. We'll get to more about that relationship in a minute. But, you know, it's the new favorite network, so you wanted to give them a little news bite. And then you're on CNBC to kind of make sure to keep, keep a lid on the markets who might be kind of jittery. Good news in the markets this morning. Markets are, you know, stocks are up, oil price prices are down. We'll see to the extent how that holds. Having Vance out there is also interesting. There was a critique coming from the neocon, right. On this deal. Mark Levin was extremely upset about it. Lindsey Graham. And you'll be surprised to know that your former comrades who decided that they would go full bore for Donald Trump and say that this is going to be my man and we're going to hitch our wagon to him and that he's really going to be there as we achieve what we've wanted to for a long time, which is overthrow the Iranian regime and have a stalwart American military leadership towards that objective so that we can see freedom flourish in the Middle East. You'll be surprised that that deal didn't really work out for them as Donald Trump was not the ally that they had expected. Bibi's learning the same. Here's Lindsey this morning, or Lindsey, this was Lindsay yesterday, rather before you went to the fight. Lindsay, I'm somewhat concerned that Iran's UFC agreement seems different than what the American negotiating team is claiming. You don't say. Under our law, any nuclear deal with Iran will be sent to Congress for review and a vote. Congress has a job now. That's interesting. I look forward to reviewing the final product. And I believe it's imperative that the architect of the deal, Vice President Vance, be part of the process in presenting the final deal to Congress. That caught my eye. The architect of the deal, Vice President Vance, is that true? Even it seems telling. I think that he is kind of laying the groundwork for this intra party squabble and giving himself some cover if he wants to criticize the deal. I'm not criticizing Mr. Trump, of course, who is brilliant this whole way, but he might have put the wrong guy in charge of this deal.
- [08:15]
Bill Kristol
Yeah, no, I was struck by that, too. When Lindsey Graham says he's somewhat concerned about something Donald Trump has done, it means Lindsey Graham is hair on fire, panicked, and thinks this thing is an utter and total disaster because somewhat concerned is the most critical he's allowed to be of Donald Trump. So, yeah, it is revealing. And they want to throw Vance under the bus for this, I suppose, but for what? What was the alternative? To use ground troops with no congressional authorization and not having prepared for it and suddenly seize Cargill in. Would that have changed the outcome? I mean, Trump in respect, his instinct to just get out of there was probably right at this point. They probably could have gotten a better deal, honestly two months ago, but what do you think the odds are that actually something gets signed in Switzerland Friday? I mean, the Iranians are going to be very tempted to say, well, Israel says they're not abiding by the deal in Lebanon and they somehow managed instantly the Iranians, to just shove that into the deal, which was totally out of nowhere. We want a little more clarity about the strait and you can imagine them just continuing to torment Trump, you know.
- [09:14]
Tim Miller
Yeah, you know, two thoughts on that. And I had my notes here. Are we sure this holds till Friday? I'm not. I don't. I mean, we'll see. I think there's a lot of incentives on both sides for it, too, because Donald Trump is sick of this war on board and doesn't have any objectives and never had any objectives and thought this was going to be easy and, you know, got himself into just this total quagmire, and he's just looking for any way out of it. And then the Iranians keep adding more things and getting more things, you know, to your point. And there was a report yesterday that Trump wanted the deal so bad for his birthday party that when Israel bombed Lebanon yesterday morning, Trump called Bibi and started cussing at him. And then the Iranians said, oh, I don't know if we're going to sign the deal now. We need more stuff. And Trump made additional concessions yesterday just in order to make the Iranians happy because they're upset about Bibi and Lebanon. And one of those concessions is that Lebanon is part of the deal, which is like, Israel's not a party to the deal. So that doesn't even make any sense. But the fact that it's in there, I guess gives Iran some leverage as well to kind of back away or to get more stuff, get more money, whatever. The other thing I think that is telling about how. How bad the deal is is that we don't actually have it, because I think that's important to say. Maybe I should have started with that. But, you know, we're all basing this on, you know, here's what the American state media at Axios and Fox News are saying is happening. And then that's. Here's what the Iranian state media and FAR and Tasnim are saying. And like, the Pakistanis put out a statement about what they're saying. We don't have the text. And I think that that is extreme. You know, tells you that, Well, A, as J.D. vance said, there may be some more technicalities to still work out. And B, they know, the administration knows that once people see the text, there's going to be a lot of anger and outrage about it. And they probably want to kick that as close to Friday as possible. And we'll see. I don't know. Who knows? Maybe it'll be out by the time we're post this. But, like, if they felt like this was a huge accomplishment where they had, you know, gained something that Donald Trump can wave around, you know, beyond just the vague notion of he signed a Deal. Right. Like if there was some tangible thing, some tangible accomplishment, they would have put it out before the fight yesterday. Like the fact that they didn't, I think, tells you that there's, there's nothing to brag about.
- [11:38]
Bill Kristol
No, that's really a good point. I mean, there's nothing tangible. I mean, I was thinking about this. What is their one most tangible concrete achievement for the deal? You usually have a deal, there are things on both sides. And so the US Would stress the two or three things it got. Iran would stress the two or three things they got. And okay, fine. That's what deals look like.
- [11:53]
Ryan Seacrest
Right.
- [11:54]
Bill Kristol
I mean, literally, what did we get? Nothing. I mean, we got an excuse for Trump to bring the troops home and say the war is over, but I mean, they don't even have.
- [12:03]
Tim Miller
You got to return to how things were before the war. Maybe, but worse. But worse before the war, we weren't ex negotiating over the nuclear before the war and they're going to say it's the nuclear. But the whole point of the MoU is that there's now a 60 day period to negotiate over the nuclear issue.
- [12:18]
Bill Kristol
Right. And we were doing before the war. So we spent $100 billion, lost 14 service men and women, antagonized allies, did a million other things that were bad, killed children. Killed children. Yeah. Not, not trivial things. Right. And the very best account they can give, which is not in fact truth, is that we're back to where we were on February 27th and we're not even back in nearly as good shape. So I don't know. I was talking to a friend yesterday who was worried. Will Trump succeed in spinning this? Fox News? You know, he's not crazy to be concerned about that given the last 10 years in American politics. But I kind of think this one is just hard to. I mean, what do they have? It was a war. I mean, this. They were literally negotiating with the Iranians about the nuclear thing. We hadn't sold out the Iranian people yet. On February 27, the strait was open and unquestionably open. There was no talk about giving them money. There was not much talk about relieving sanctions, which incidentally is another thing. Do we believe. I don't believe these sanctions are going to still be on Iran in 30, 60 days and Trump's going to, you know, that that'll be one of the first things he throws over. So we will have given up. What was what everyone thinks of the Obama deal when they did keep a lot of the sanctions, there was that snapback There were endless disputes, I can't even remember them anymore about exactly which sanctions were strong enough and all this, but they were like there actually were sanctions. You know, I think it's we're, we're going to a deal that honestly if any, if Biden or Obama. Such a cliche to say this, but if Biden or Obama done this, the entire Republican Party would be denouncing it as much worse than Neville Chamberlain at Munich.
- [13:44]
Tim Miller
Oh yeah, no. A humiliating week. It's Carter. I know it would have been Carter with the hostage deal. This idea of just utter weakness and this is what the Republicans would be saying. He couldn't even back up his own bluster, said it was going to be unconditional surrender, ended up begging the Iranians to let him get out of the quagmire. The whole thing is just totally humiliating. And if you go back to the pre war, it is too kind to them to say we've gotten to the pre war status quo because the Strait of Hormuz will not be at the pre war status quo and Iran will have more control over in some kind of economic benefit from it that they didn't have before. But even setting the strait aside, one of the rationales that you heard from the misguided but reasonable supporters of the war at the beginning was that this could be the moment to topple the regime because they were so weak. There were protests in the streets, the Iranian economy was in chatters, The Ayatollah was 100 years old and there was some type of regime change coming soon anyway because he was going to die. Their proxies had been weakened by a lot of actions that Israel had been taken. The regime was in rough shape before we bombed them and before we decapitated them. And now you come out of this on the back end and you have a more hardline regime that has more control over the country and they're going to have more money, right? Because they're going to have a huge influx of cash. What is that money going to go to? Do you think the money is going to go to the Iranian people or do you think it's going to go to get more missiles and replenish the drones and support their terrorist proxies other places? That's what I think the money is going to go to.
- [15:29]
Bill Kristol
And the degree to which surviving a war, a pretty all out assault by us after all, which as Pete Hegsass said over and over, what great is huge, humongous, devastating, debilitating assault on every Iranian asset, blah, blah, Blah. They survived it. They did more than survive it. They held their own, ultimately, in a way, and now they're coming out of it better. I mean, what does that do? It strengthens Iran a lot, but it weakens us really, a lot. I mean, whatever one thinks of other aspects of our diplomacy over the years and the decades and our, you know, soft power at all, the one thing we were supposed to. We're pretty strong, right? It turns out we weren't strong even militarily. We couldn't, you know, we get an Apache helicopter shot down. That's a week ago, right? Yeah. Friday, I think. Ten days ago. Nine. Ten days ago. By a drone. Two days after. Trump is so. Oh, man, if they mess around with our troops, if they put anyone in danger, that's really a red line. And the Iranians, just to show, you know, they. They could do it, shut down an Apache, and we did one or two days of token bombing and then went back to begging for a deal. So I think the degree to which we look weak is really. It can't be overstated, actually.
- [16:34]
Tim Miller
And just last week also just on the way, it's worth mentioning, you said that Hegseth was bragging about all of the bombing that we did, that they not only survived, but came out the other side in a stronger negotiating position. It was just Trump. The president last week said the US military dropped 250 million worth of bombs on Iran in one night.
- [16:51]
Bill Kristol
That's great.
- [16:52]
Tim Miller
In one night. So I don't know, was he lying? And the president's just making shit up about what we're doing that doesn't seem good, or is he telling the truth? And we spent a quarter billion dollars of our money on bombs, on bombing Iran last week to no end, to no purpose, or to the purpose of getting us to a deal that's worse than where we were before the bombing started. And the whole thing is terrible. I'll let Tom Nichols sum it up for it. Everybody the best, because he did a nice job in the Atlantic this morning. The reality is that the war will close with the regime in Tehran intact and in the grip of the irgc. The Strait of Hormuz will remain under the threat of Iranian attacks. Iran will continue to possess significant drone and missile stocks. The regime will maintain the capability to be a state sponsor of terror, and many sanctions will be lifted, and billions of dollars in unfrozen assets will flow to Iran. In other words, the Iranians have achieved their key strategic aims, regime survival above all, while the Americans have achieved none of Their own. I think that's a pretty good summary of the state of affairs. I've been talking about One Skin for a minute and I like to think I'm basically single handedly responsible for increase in moisturizing and skin care among heterosexual male podcast listeners. And so for you same guys that are now realizing how you can keep a youthful look to your skin, Oneskin is also offering you a new service that can help keep that same density and youthfulness and healthfulness when it comes to your hair. They've got a new scalp serum, OS1 hair. I'm pretty good with my hair. I'm pretty lucky. Look at this Lebanese afro I got going here. But it's important to take care of it if you want to keep it. I got a lot of friends in my life who aren't quite as blessed. And whether it's stress or hormonal shifts or just getting older, hair changes happen to everyone. And that's exactly why OneSkin built OS1 hair. It's a daily serum powered by their proprietary OS1 peptide that actually works on the scalp, where hair health begins to nourish it from the root so your hair looks and feels better over time. Most of the hair treatment options out there that deliver results like these can leave your scalp irritated or greasy, and others require a prescription and still others have unpleasant side effects. None of that is true for OS1 hair. It's different. It's drug free, so you can use it alone or alongside other hair treatments without the irritation. And it's water based. You can use it every day without disrupting your normal routine. Born from over 10 years of longevity research, OneSkin's OS1 peptide is engineered to support your hair to look visibly fuller and thicker at any age. For a limited time, try OneSkin with 15% off using code bulwark at OneSkin co. Bulwark, that's 15% off. OneSkin co with Code Bulwark. After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. All right, let's move on to the Hector Mountain dew Camacho America 250 celebration last night at the White House. I want to start with this. The Iran situation is like a tangible disaster and people's lives we hurt. I mean, some people are dead as we mentioned. Children are dead, everybody's paying more because of this. Our position is weaker in the world. These are all like the negative fallout from bad and incompetent leadership and clownish leadership that we're all Experiencing from the Iran war, the cage fight on the White House is like more just about what we feel America should be. Right. It's more about these kind of esoteric questions. No children died last night. There were a couple fat people that got into a fistfight last night in the White House lawn and were arrested because that's. That's the country that we have right now. But, you know, besides that guy going to jail, nobody actually suffered any consequences last night. It was simply bad propaganda theater. But it was really bad. I mean, it was propaganda theater that was really bad and harmful and outside of the spirit of what is good about the country. So we might as well talk about it before I play some of my favorite audio clips of the evening. Do you have anything in particular that struck you?
- [21:05]
Bill Kristol
I didn't watch it, let's just say. But it's too depressing.
- [21:09]
Tim Miller
Well, none of us could watch it because it was on Paramount.
- [21:11]
Bill Kristol
Yeah, that's another thing. Right. The whole thing is so appalling at eight different levels. It's a commercial event, I guess. At one point I struck. Mark Hurtling had an excellent piece in the pulp this morning on this. The use and abuse of the military to provide the trappings of state occasion and a solemn state occasion for this ghastly event is particularly appalling.
- [21:31]
Tim Miller
Well, they did this gimmick. They did this gimmick where every fighter that walked into the ring was paired with, what is it, a Medal of Honor recipient.
- [21:40]
Bill Kristol
Medal of Honor recipient.
- [21:41]
Tim Miller
Yeah. And so then when they walked into the ring, the military that we forced to be there was saluting them in uniform because they could not tell whatever soldier say was there meant to salute wrestlers, but they do salute matter of honor recipients. So it was kind of a clever, and I don't mean that in a good way, but a clever Fox way of Dana White and Trump to force the, you know, soldiers to stand there at attention while the. While the wrestlers went to the ring
- [22:17]
Bill Kristol
and then the honor guards and the whole thing, it just. I found that, I guess the most off putting the commercialization a little bit kind of creepy too, you know, all the signs everywhere and Trump personally benefiting from it, of course. And I don't know, the violence, I mean, the whole thing is, I don't know, it's hard to even know which part is most offensive. Did you have a favorite. Did you have a favorite time then?
- [22:37]
Tim Miller
I did. Yeah, I did. Let's take one more time, just really quick on the Hurtley thing. So it was so good. And I'll Put the link in the show notes for people if they haven't read the article. His column reflected on a speech that Tom Wolfe had given to the army when he was, I think, a young recruit. He said it was in the mid-80s
- [22:54]
Bill Kristol
sometimes I think he was back as a kind of a captain, working, teaching a little bit at west point. So this is 87, I think Tom Wolf, the novelist and essayist and died a few years ago. Yes, he was a guest speaker there and Pertland quotes him. It's really amazing.
- [23:09]
Tim Miller
Yeah, yeah. And the speech is kind of a meditation on FTR's Four Freedoms, which is another speech worth going to read if you haven't in a minute. It's good to reflect on. But he picked on one particular element where Wolf is talking about how as fewer and fewer people join the military, more and more there'll be kind of a select group of people in the military that will be used by the broader society to their ends. And it's something to guard against. And he had this line in particular, particular those in the military will become sentinels at the bacchanal and armed monks at the orgy. Quite apt. 39 years before. What? That was exactly what they were doing last night. They were literally the sentinels at the bacchanal on the White House lawn. And it was a bacchanal that was also not really. There were at times joy, but it also, there was a lot of partisan rancor and grotesqueries. And we had to go through this period of like, oh, the singers are backing out. And the Trump people and the MAGA people are like, well, they don't love America. And why do the liberals. Like we would. If Obama was president, a conservative singer would go and sing because he loves America. Why aren't these liberal singers coming to sing at our events? It's because you've turned this into, you know, a disgusting display of Trump worship. An orgy, if you will, of Trump worship. And there's one man in particular. I'm not going to learn the MMA fighters names, I'm sorry. So whatever. It was a guy, he was there and he won his fight. And after the fight, this is what he had to say. And lastly, Moshell. Oh, Obama is a man. Am I right, America? It's Joe Rogan there interviewing him with the shitty grin on his face. It's just like, I don't want to do the pearl clutching thing, but it's like, this is fucking sick. And this is sick. It's loser behavior. You're at the White House it's supposed to be a celebration of the country. Wasn't that the whole point of this? Originally it was the America 250 celebration. Supposed to be a celebration of the history of the country and our principles. And if you want to have a fight to market. Not my cup of tea exactly, but okay. But to have the guys then go up there and be like the first black first lady actually has a dick and have everybody cheer and have the cabinet sit there and applaud and it's despicable.
- [25:46]
Bill Kristol
Totally. I didn't see that much. I've seen a couple of clips. Yeah. They don't seem to be very happy. Right. It's not a celebration of America. I believe some of the money that was appropriated for taxpayer money for celebrating the 250th anniversary went to this event. And as it's going to all of Trump's ridiculous other events too. But they're unhappy about America and it's
- [26:07]
Tim Miller
impossible to imagine like the counterfactuals, like somebody like the Democrats, all the events already being like, Melania was a mail order bride whore on the White House lawn. You know what I mean? This stuff is.
- [26:19]
Bill Kristol
But you know what's good, Tim, is, I mean, Lindsey Graham, who you recall in 2015, 16, did that was quoted on video actually praising Joe Biden as a very decent human being. I think it was after Beau Biden died and Lindsey spent some time talking to Vice President.
- [26:32]
Tim Miller
I was doing an interview with my friend Scott Conroy, actually.
- [26:34]
Bill Kristol
Vice President. Yeah, Vice President Biden. But people like Lindsey who were there, they've denounced this. I mean, they've said this is inappropriate and they're kind of embarrassed that this was a blemish on our event because they respect President Obama and Mrs. Obama for their, for having been president and first lady and they think this kind of thing is inappropriate. Haven't a lot of the Republicans who were there, the cabinet members. Your friend Besant hasn't, whatever his name is, hasn't he. Hasn't he spoken up and Lindsey Graham. John Thune was there, I believe Mark Zuckerberg, the distinguished corporate titan, head of Facebook, doesn't believe in that kind of thing with a single person. I would be funny to actually try to go ask them all. But of course they won't say anything. I suppose maybe Lindsay would be slightly concerned.
- [27:13]
Tim Miller
You know, at this point, I don't want them to. I don't even want.
- [27:17]
Bill Kristol
This is that they wanted this, right? This is the. Let them.
- [27:21]
Tim Miller
They had their chance in the moment to say like no this is not appropriate. I got. We're at the White House. We're celebrating the country. Like, why are you making trans jokes about the former first lady? Like, it's fucking insane.
- [27:36]
Ryan Seacrest
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- [28:07]
Tim Miller
All right, so here's this douche. The night before, they had a weigh in at the Ellipse, and they also had a press conference at Lincoln Memorial the day before the fight. It's worth just noting really quick that out in front of the Lincoln Memorial, there was just a ton of trash. And Trump's been talking about how he beautified the reflecting pool and how great it looks while the reflecting pool was, like, green the next morning. And. And I don't know, these guys were probably pissing in it or dumping their Bud Light in it or something, but anyway, I don't know if that vomit was real or whatever, but there's this guy spitting up on himself, talking about how scary black men are. The night before he goes into the White House and starts making trans jokes about Michelle Obama on what should be a celebration of the country. The whole thing is so just gross and yucky. Throwing up on himself. So what? Maybe I was drinking last night, but who won it? Who wouldn't be? I have a giant black man that wants to knock me out. Is the most knockouts in UFC history.
- [29:15]
Bill Kristol
He still.
- [29:16]
Tim Miller
Josh. Two, three, one.
- [29:21]
Bill Kristol
Ugh. God, I hadn't seen that. This is kidding me. The show is full.
- [29:26]
Tim Miller
I'm here, I'm happy. Here's part of the reason you haven't seen that. Part of the reason you haven't seen that was because of the corruption of this deal. So when they first said that this is going to happen again, it was initially supposed to be a national celebration. On our 250, Trump gets Dana White on board, who's head of the ufc. Dana White says, hey, that sounds great. It will be non political. We'll put it on CBS so everybody can see it. You know, we have partnership with them instead, what they did was put it behind their paywall on Paramount Plus. So in addition to having it just be a total abomination, everybody had to get a little taste, too. So you wanted to make sure that for any of the UFC fans who are not Paramount plus subscribers, like, they had to pay Larry Ellison to watch this. So, like, Larry Ellison gets a handout from the event that happens on the White House lawn that we all pay for as tax taxpayers. So that's nice, I guess, for him.
- [30:30]
Bill Kristol
And Trump gets a handout, right? Where's some sponsors?
- [30:32]
Tim Miller
Well, Trump's paying a little bit, but that's a little bit of a. Goes both ways. The Trump crypto was a sponsor. Can we just. Let's just play that. This was in the middle of the event last night. I started to believe this is even real. Here's a fucking advertisement in the middle of the event last night.
- [30:47]
Ryan Seacrest
Closed captioning for tonight's broadcast is brought to you by TrumpCoins.com, the official UFC Freedom 250 special edition medallions graded by NGC.
- [30:55]
Tim Miller
Limited quantities available now at ChunkCoins.com TrumpCoins.com get the shout out there in the middle of the event. I guess they sponsored the closed captioning I want. I'm sure, I'm sure that Mr. Trump and the Trump kids are really paying for the closed captioning there. The Ultimate Fighting Championship also announced that it will pay bonuses to the fighters in the form of a cryptocurrency issued by the Trump family, business World Liberty Financial. So the Trump shitcoin was part of the prize purse last night at the America 250 celebration.
- [31:31]
Bill Kristol
I feel like if this had been in, I don't know, Argentina or the Philippines, not to pick on these countries, but let's say a third world country that has had dictatorships in our lifetime and a huge amount of grift and graft and, and the like Russia to take another country. I feel like someone would have said if they had gone to this, you know, each of these things had been ticked off, someone would have said, we can't go that far.
- [31:52]
Tim Miller
I mean, even we, even we don't want this.
- [31:55]
Bill Kristol
It's too much.
- [31:56]
Tim Miller
You know, Putin's like, I have some fucking dignity, okay? I have some self respect. I'm going to steal these people money on the back end, okay? Like, I don't. We're not going to put on the television screen, this is sponsored by Putin coin and we're not going to have a little logo on the mat that's like, buy Putin stablecoin putin Rxputin.com it's embarrassing. It's embarrassing.
- [32:25]
Bill Kristol
It is humiliating. And you're right, because Putin would do SaviorOfRussia.com or the Glory of Russia coin. Right. And that's the more traditional way. And then, of course, you take the cut on the back end, as you say, secretly. But that is striking about Trump, right? He's so insecure, I suppose. And so maybe he thinks it's better. That works better this way. The grift. Or is it just insecurity that his name has to be on anything? I don't know.
- [32:51]
Tim Miller
Yeah, I think it's definitely insecurity. Fred didn't love him, I think is pretty much what it is. It's just preposterous. In 2014, SNL had done a segment 2015 at the beginning of his campaign and was like, if Trump wins, this is what it would look like. And it was just a video of last night. Like, everybody, you know, like, all the conservatives sort of would have been like, these liberals, like, don't understand real America. These, like, it's so unfair. It's so biased. It's like Trump's, you know, just total depraved, disgusting, grotesque, clownish behavior is, like, so far beyond what Hollywood could have even imagined in parodying Republicans. That parody is now impossible. Like, how could you even parody from here?
- [33:39]
Bill Kristol
But as Andrew pointed out, as Andrew Ego pointed out in Warner Shasta this morning, if you actually criticize what happened last night, you're out of touch with real America. You're elitists. You don't like this Ultimate Fighting Championship. You want them to be playing croquet on the White House lawn. But, you know, real America likes this stuff. Actually, to be fair to real America, there's not much evidence they like this stuff. There was some poll that showed, like, 16% of people like this. I don't know what the ratings are on that Paramount plus thing. I don't know how you do that, even with pay per view or whatever, but I don't know.
- [34:08]
Tim Miller
A lot of America was watching the World cup yesterday, was watching the Stanley cup finals.
- [34:12]
Bill Kristol
I feel like a lot of America was watching the World Cup. I'm willing to bet a lot of higher percentage of America were watching the Knicks Saturday night than watch that crap last night. Right? So the real America. Yes. Is to. I mean, it's not even the real America. That's what's so annoying. Right? And then Marc Thiessen inside the Beltway here in Northern Virginia and writing for the Washington Post about. Yeah, you elitist. You don't like this kind of thing. Maybe we're just decent people who don't like this kind of thing and it's so embarrassing for our country. And it does sort of tie in with the Iran thing. Not to overthink this, but, I mean, the decline in power is not unrelated to the decline in self respect and dignity and the decadence, let's put it that way.
- [34:49]
Tim Miller
That's true, though. It's mostly Trump's fault. I mean, honestly, real America existed for 235 years, 240 years before Trump. There were conservatives like Ronald Reagan would have never have thought to have an event at the White House.
- [35:01]
Bill Kristol
Totally.
- [35:02]
Tim Miller
Where.
- [35:02]
Bill Kristol
No, no, I totally agree that it's Trump.
- [35:03]
Tim Miller
It's entirely a true. Making fun of Tip o' Neill's wife's like, looks like, like that would have never been okay Kennedy. You know what I mean? Like, Kennedy would never have, you know, gone and said, hey, Mamie Eisenhower is a lesbian. Like, this is like, just not the kind of things that. So what are you talking about? That, like, real America demands?
- [35:23]
Bill Kristol
No, that's right.
- [35:24]
Tim Miller
I agree totally.
- [35:25]
Bill Kristol
Trump is. Trump is as hijacked or Trump has hijacked the term and it's unfair to the real America. Yeah.
- [35:32]
Ryan Seacrest
Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway this summer. Stock up on your favorite brands for both you and your home. Now through June 23rd, get big deals on everyday essentials from Procter and Gamble. Shop in store or online for savings on items like Swiffer Power Mop, Febreze Plug Warmer, Herbal Essence shampoo, Old Spice 2 in one, Crest Scope toothpaste, Secret Deodorant spray, and Head and Shoulder shampoo. Get these deals before they're gone. Offer ends June 23rd. Restrictions apply. Offers may vary. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.
- [36:03]
Tim Miller
I want to talk a little bit more about the sponsorships because they bother me. I was sponsored by Bud Light. We had to go through a whole year of fake outrage because Bud Light sponsored a trans person's Instagram reel. Like, that's literally what it was. People made it seem like they put a trans person on their can. Not that that would have been a problem, but they. I just. I got a sponsorship for a single influencer's Instagram reel and we had to do Bud Light protests. People are pouring out Bud Light. Way to pretend like we care. Like, this was a real story. Politicians talked about it. I went to it. I was doing the circus during all this like Ted Cruz, they would talk about this on stages about how horrible it is that Bud Light did this. Bud Light was there sponsoring last night when the shirtless man was shouting about how Michelle Obama is a man. I don't know if we'll have any statements from Bud Light today. We'll keep an eye out for that. Dodge Ram was sponsoring it. Crypto.com, which is just a Walmart of scams, was sponsoring it. Poly Market, the one that was really caught my eye though was Riyadh season, which is the Saudi's big tourism play that they've got coming up, that they sponsored it. And I think because of all of the disgustingness of last night, there will be little focus on this. And so I just wanted to take a moment for it. So at least, at least here we can express correct outrage about the fact that we needed the Saudis to underwrite our national celebration. Why Trump has turned us into such a broke dick country where we are like a fucking QVC telethon of a country that now Middle Eastern Sharia law dictators have to underwrite our national celebrations. They have to underwrite our presidential plane. Like it's sick. Like why? How, why? Get, get that shit away from the White House lawn. The Saudis should not be part of an American celebration. I mean for, for starters, they were, they were involved at some level in 9, 11. So they're involved in an attack on us 25 years ago during that 250. And they share none of the American traditions and values of liberalism and pluralism and rule of law and things enshrined in the Constitution and the Declaration. None of that is a value that the Saudis hold. So why should the Saudis be able to advertise on our White House lawn? That's insane.
- [38:39]
Bill Kristol
Because they have a lot of money and Trump wants their money. And they actually want to make sure Trump, they're in good with Trump because they get things out of it too. I suppose. It's a wonderful commercial relationship.
- [38:49]
Tim Miller
I guess they should have plenty of money. We don't need to beg for their oil money.
- [38:51]
Bill Kristol
And no, it's disgusting. It's beyond disgusting. America first really is the greatest fraud in a way of them all. He couldn't care less about America, it
- [39:02]
Tim Miller
turns out, except for when it's a celebration of him. I want to close this section with this. I want to pull a bill. I was doing some Googling last night, so I get into trouble when I do some history reading and I was reading about the Persepolis birthday Bash, you know anything about that? You remember?
- [39:20]
Bill Kristol
No, you're ahead of it.
- [39:21]
Tim Miller
1971, so you were around. Okay. The Persepolis birthday bash in 1970.
- [39:26]
Bill Kristol
I was in college.
- [39:27]
Tim Miller
Yeah, 1971.
- [39:28]
Bill Kristol
I wasn't paying attention to the Persepolis birthday bash. Is that the Greek junta or something? I'm guessing now?
- [39:33]
Tim Miller
No. This is the 2,500 year anniversary of the Persian Empire.
- [39:38]
Bill Kristol
Oh, the Persian one, right?
- [39:39]
Tim Miller
Yeah. Osiris the Great. It was a lavish star shaped oasis of 50 luxury air conditioned tents. It was constructed on 160 acre site. There's an 18 hole golf course, there's a beauty parlor flown in from Paris. Military parade during the time of the Shah. And it was intended to showcase Iran's rich heritage and the Shah's power. But the excess amidst local poverty created a backlash. The divide deepened public dissent and it's widely cited as one of the catalysts for the 1979 Islamic Revolution. And so I was just, I was, I don't know, I was looking at that last night and I was like eight years away from revolution. I don't know.
- [40:25]
Ryan Seacrest
We.
- [40:26]
Tim Miller
Can we speed things up a little bit more in the modern era?
- [40:29]
Bill Kristol
Now that you mentioned it, I remember like when the revolution was happening in 79, when the, you know, when the Shah fell, this was cited as kind of like, you know, the, both the cause of it and also, I don't know what's the right word, like an irony of history thing. Right. The moment they celebrate, the most grandiose celebration usually happens just before everything falls apart. So let's hope. Yeah, but let's make it more like eight months, not eight years. Okay. Could we have him gone? You know, someone else pointed out that Nixon, was it something Nixon did in 73, about a year before being at Kimura was now before he was driven out of office. So I'm more in the, the one year time horizon and the eight year time horizon here, but it's a good comparison.
- [41:08]
Tim Miller
Pride comes before the fall kind of. Pride goeth before destruction. Anything else on that? No. Can we quit? Can we never talk about that again? Until. I guess we can talk about it again when the resistance revolution happens and we can cite it.
- [41:24]
Bill Kristol
And we only have three, I guess the only point, I think. What do we have now? Three weeks till. A little less than three weeks till July 4, right? It's a Friday, so. Yeah. And I kind of was thinking until, until this conversation actually until last night, we sort of made this through without as much unpleasantness as I expected of Trump's hijacking of the 250th. And I actually think it's sort of. It's been a flop, that is, he wanted to make it a big thing all about him. And I think most people have just ignored most of his attempts to do stuff or they haven't quite panned out. The dollar bill, the $250bill and the other stuff hasn't happened yet. At least the arch that's really worth fighting and stopping. So I was reassuring myself that, that and I still am sort of reassured the public isn't really on board he's hijacking. And it doesn't seem to be changing anyone's mind about anything. And we would all forget about it pretty quickly, but this was so I'm still hoping to forget about last night pretty quickly.
- [42:16]
Tim Miller
This is the part that worries me and this is why I do kind of want to move on from it after this. Because, like, he is good at this, like, manipulating the public dialogue. Like, I don't think anybody watched it last night. I'm not saying that there's this deep well of love for, you know, a guy fucking shouting about Michelle Obama being trans, but like, the people that he was able to engage are people that don't pay that close of attention to all this and probably wouldn't have even noticed that America 250 was happening, to be honest. In another world. What do they receive? They get trickle down stuff. They'll get a meme that somebody sends them of the planes flying over the White House, this looks cool. Or they'll get a video of somebody crying about, you know, what was happening and, you know, with someone else being like, these guys are wusses, you know what I mean? And like, this is the culture war at base, right? Like this notion that there are these, like, fancy boys and girls who, like, care about decorum and then there's us, you know, who just care about fighting and making fun of people. You know, like, that's like, they frame that. That up and. And I worry about that, that that is like, that that is a little bit of a losing fight for people on our side. I feel like making fun of them and, you know, mocking them and talking about how pathetic and embarrassing and sad this is is a better path. But I don't know, I worry about it as a propaganda device.
- [43:49]
Bill Kristol
You're right to, given the history of other authoritarian regimes. And maybe people like me are kidding myself, kidding ourselves, that, you know. On the other hand, look at the authenticity to celebrations of the Knicks. Look at the World cup around the country. That seems heartening and that's really where the real America is. But they can get moved by some of that insane Trumpist propaganda too, I suppose.
- [44:08]
Ryan Seacrest
Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway this summer. Stock up on your favorite brands for both you and your home. Now through June 23rd, get big deals on everyday essentials from Procter and Gamble. Shop in store or online for savings on items like Swiffer Power Mop, Febreze Plug Warmer, Herbal Essence shampoo, Old Spice 2 in one, Crest Scope toothpaste, Secret Deodorant spray, and Head and Shoulder shampoo. Get these deals before they're gone. Offer ends June 23. Restrictions apply. Offers may vary. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details
- [44:39]
Tim Miller
on the failed propaganda front. The Trump name did get taken down from the Kennedy Center. We think they're still hiding it. They're still hiding and they're still wallowing in their shame and hiding it. They, I guess put up a big, what would you call it? Like a tarp or something. Yeah. Curtain in front of the words that were on the outside of the Kennedy center where initially said the John F. Kennedy center and then the Donald Trump and they took down the Donald Trump's name from it. We have some images of some photographers taking pictures through the side of the tarp where you can see the D coming down, but there's not video of it. And as of the time we're taping it this morning, 11am that tarp blocking it is still up. But, but that's pretty weak. I don't know. It's pretty sad that this happened. I don't know. Do you? You're more of a Kennedy center man than me. Do you have any thoughts?
- [45:34]
Bill Kristol
The guy who's running the Kennedy center is a Trump appointee. I read somewhere he talks to Trump a lot. I wonder if he just. Trump, after insisting on this ridiculous appeal that they lost at the last minute, said, well, I don't want anyone to see this, my name coming down. And does that really, at some point people will see that his name's not on there. So I think so. That would be good. And you know, the one point I think it's got a little lost is people say, well, he lost the lawsuit. That's great. You know the Representative Beatty, Joyce Beatty of Ohio, a 75 year old woman, black woman from Ohio, who's an ex officio member of the Kennedy center board, who wasn't allowed to speak at the meeting where they made this decision. Trump appointed members of the board to honor Trump. She brought the lawsuit. And I was talking with someone who was very involved in this. I mean, she didn't have that much support at the beginning. It wasn't like everyone was running to say, do this. You know, the other members, the other, other people on the board who were ex. Including Democrats, were like, well, come on, let's not pick this fight here. You get a lot of trouble. She had to go to a meeting in the White House alone. They wouldn't let her bring a staff member with the entire rest of the board. There's like 30 Trump appointees, cabinet officials and big shot rich people. And she had to go alone and object. So she would have standing then to challenge the illegality of what happened. So she deserves a real shout out, I would say real credit. And it's not like she's. She's not like, I don't think a real arts, you know, famous person in the. Who loves the arts. And so she was put on. This was. That's her. You know, she had a certain position in Congress that she got. She became ex officio on the board. And someone asked her, I think it was our colleague Brendan Harden doing the live stream at 2am when she was, she was there and said, why'd you do this? She said, it's just, it was the right thing to do. It was terrible what Trump was doing.
- [47:13]
Tim Miller
So, oh, I miss it. I didn't get to watch the whole livestream shout out to Brendan for being down there at the Kennedy center, but she was there. That's cool.
- [47:20]
Bill Kristol
Yeah, yeah.
- [47:21]
Tim Miller
Good for her.
- [47:22]
Bill Kristol
That cheered me up, too. She's actually, like, from Ohio. She is not an east or west coast elitist. I could point out.
- [47:28]
Tim Miller
Pride of Central State University in Wilberforce, Ohio. That's real America too, by the way. Totally good for her. Joyce Beatty. All right, anything else grinding your gears on this Monday morning? Anything else you want to. Or do you want to chat about the Knicks triumph?
- [47:43]
Bill Kristol
Well, of course, I could do that for two or three hours, but you've cleverly run out the clock here and not let me. Billy, go. Now, if it were your guy, guys, if it were Jokic, it would be the Nuggets. It would be. The whole first 35 minutes would have been on them. But no, I'm not complaining. It's okay. The first, fourth and sixth greatest comeback in NBA finals history all in one series. We don't need to discuss that at all, really.
- [48:06]
Tim Miller
It was beautiful. I know. I'm for it. I Got a little emotional watching Jalen Brunson, whose dad Rick had played in the NBA and then assistant coach on the team. And the dude, Jalen Brunson is like these listed at 62. But I was, I was like, I. Yeah, I've been there. I've been next to him, close to him, and I, I'm tall. I. He's my. I'm taller than him, I think, so I think he's 511 and you know, for him to score whatever it was, 45 of 94 points or something like that in the last game. Yeah, was the only guy scoring in the fourth quarter. Basically just willing them to victory. Kind of going around 7 foot 6, Wimpy and you know, finding what's way to the H. I mean, just total triumph of will. Good for the next fans. It was fun. The New York stuff was really fun to see.
- [48:55]
Bill Kristol
And don't you think that I thought the videos, all the videos from New York City, as a native New Yorker maybe meant a little more to me. And I recognized some of the places obviously and all that was really touching. And it was, I mean, not to sound cliche, but it was genuine diversity and multiculturalism in the very good sense. Right. Huge numbers of people of all different skin colors and races and ethnic backgrounds and. And you know, ages and wealth and politics and well, you know, and staff.
- [49:21]
Tim Miller
Unfortunately, a MAGA got shouted at George Conway and tried to ruin the moment, but you know, there's always one asshole out there. But for the most part, I then watched.
- [49:29]
Bill Kristol
I played a little soccer when I was a kid, so I'm not a huge World cup fan or soccer man, but I don't know. For some reason I watched the Netherlands Japan game yesterday, which was an excellent game incidentally. It was really. It was sort of touching. I mean, there they are playing in Texas, I think in Arlington in the Cowboys Stadium and first half of Squirrel is. And back and forth in the second half ended up 2 2. Japan rallied twice to catch up with Netherlands, which I think would be the favored team there. Both teams played with sportsmanship. Their fans were, you know, crazily enthusiastic for their own team and also totally so force, one could tell, friendly to the other fans and sort of shared some, you know, like photos together and like seemed to, you know, some food and so forth in the parking lot. And the Japanese, the Japanese fans cleaned up their section after the event. They have a different custom in Japan in the U.S. that was interesting.
- [50:21]
Tim Miller
Yeah, that circles us back to the Lincoln Memorial. The MAGA fans did not clean up after themselves in front of the Lincoln Memorial.
- [50:28]
Bill Kristol
But I mean, Andrew makes the point in wearing shirts. The World cup, it is kind of nice. I got to say on this, I think I give them credit. They scattered it all over the country. People seem to be very well overseas. The Algerian team is somewhere in the middle of nowhere, in the middle, not to be, not to be east coast elitist somewhere out there in Kansas or something. And the people of Lawrence are being very nice to them and getting a lot really flattered to have them there. And the Algerians are very pleased to get to see real America. I mean, I really feel like maybe the combination of the Knicks and the World cup will save us from Trump's horribleness.
- [51:04]
Tim Miller
I hope so. I hope so. All right, Bill Kristol, we will be back tomorrow. Thanks for doing this one with me and see you next Monday. Everybody else, lots happening this week. Hopefully we can focus on some real news tomorrow and we'll see you all then. Go next. Peace. Go tell that long tongue liar Go and tell that midnight rider Tell the rambler the gambler gambler the back fighter Tell him that God's gonna cut him down Tell em that God's gonna cut him down. The Bork podcast is brought to you thanks to the work of lead producer Katie Cooper, associate producer Ansley Skipper, and with video editing by Katie Lutz and audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
- [51:55]
Ryan Seacrest
Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway this summer. Stock up on your favorite brands for both you and your home. Now through June 23rd, get big deals on everyday essentials from Procter and Gamble Gamble. Shop in store or online for savings on items like Swiffer Power Mop, Febreze Plug Warmer, Herbal Essence shampoo, Old Spice 2 in one, Crest Scope toothpaste, Secret Deodorant Spray and Head and Shoulder Shampoo. Get these deals before they're gone. Offer ends June 23rd. Restrictions apply. Offers may vary. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.