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- [00:00]
A
This is Danielle Robaix from Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club. A new car is kind of like a new book. It takes you places you never thought you could go. What will you drive into the next chapter of your life? It's fun to dream about your next car, but when you're done dreaming, you need to head to cars.com Cars.com has the tools and expert advice to help you find your dream car. Their advanced search filters allow you to explore 2 million new and used cars so that you can find the the perfect car. Start your search with cars.com where to next? Want to get more work done with less effort on TikTok? Creators are sharing AI automation tips that save time and deliver better results. Tap to discover. Try TikTok now.
- [01:01]
B
Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. It is Monday, so we're here with editor at large Bill Kristol. And you know, last week was pretty heavy. It's pretty heavy. A lot of serious topics, a lot of serious guests. We appreciated all of them. And so I have saved a section at the end of the podcast for some laughs. I feel like we need some laughter and deserve some laughter, Bill. And so, you know, we'll kind of see. Do you have a favorite stand up comedian? Is there an old timer that you're into?
- [01:30]
C
Yeah, no, that's a good question. I'll think about it. Get back to you at the end of the show. I can tell some of my favorite Henny Youngman jokes. That'll go over well.
- [01:38]
B
That'll date me.
- [01:40]
C
That'll date me back to 1946 or something like that.
- [01:43]
B
That's exactly what I was hoping for in the answer. So you work on that. We need to start, though, with serious matters abroad and domestically. And I want to really begin with our friend and colleague. Well, not really colleague, but your former colleague, my aspiring colleague, Bob Kagan, who is in the Atlantic yesterday with an article titled Checkmate in Iran. Washington can't reverse or control the consequences of losing this war. And it's really well argued and just basically a full accounting of how rough the situation is strategically and geopolitically right now for Trump. And he goes into a lot of themes that he went into a month ago when he was on his podcast because not a lot has changed since then. But I do think he kind of even broadens it out further as far as why this is such a geopolitical strategic defeat, even more so than whatever, Vietnam, et cetera, because of like what some of the implications are for us losing control of the Strait of Hormuz. So I was wondering what your your thoughts were on his assessment.
- [02:49]
C
Yeah, no, I think it's a very strong piece and he's been arguing this for a while, as you say, but I think he's being vindicated by events. Trump understandably does not want to escalate. He doesn't want to get in an even bigger war. And I think the conventional wisdom has been, well, it's not great for Trump, but he kind of, and I've had this view somewh and he can slide out of it without too much damage to himself or I suppose to the U.S. iran's capabilities have been degraded. We've paid a price. The world economy's paid a price, but we could recover. I mean, I still think it'd be pretty serious defeat. Bob is more struck by the severity of that defeat, also struck by the fact that Iran, he's been right about this for the last week or so. We've been talking about it on the phone a lot. Iran's not so eager to let Trump slither away. Right? I mean, that's really striking. Iran feels they have the upper hand. I kind of thought maybe they just a little worried about being pummeled again. And they just ended in a good situation. Pocket their winnings ended in a pretty good situation for them. But so far they haven't seemed to want to do that. And Trump has bellowed and threatened, but not done much. So we'll see what happens. Meanwhile, the strait is closed and the economy, the global economy pays more of a price. But I think what Bob's big contribution is seeing that what a defeat it is for us to allow Iran to have allowed Iran to establish the principle that they can close the strait. That's established going forward, whatever fake kind of agreement there is. Iran says, well, we'll open it. They're pretty much making clear that it's at their sufferance. 40 years. Trump likes to talk about 47 years. This nation's been plaguing the world. It has been plaguing the world and US and others for 47 years and is a very bad regime. The one thing they've never done in the last 40 years been intimidated from doing was closing the strait. Really kind of striking, isn't all these wars going on in the region, including with Iran, and we hit Iran in 2020 and then again in June, Israel, the US hit IR close the strait. That principle, they didn't want to challenge the principle that we upheld with many Others of freedom of passage in international waters. And now they've established the principle they can do this. That's a huge defeat. And then the damage that's been done to our alliances in Europe and elsewhere, confidence in us by the Asians, who depend much more on the strait for oil and for energy. The Gulf states now signaling, who are hawkish. Near the beginning, they thought Trump might go in and take care of Iran, which not a nation, not a regime they, like, get along with very well and are scared. By now, they seem to be telling Trump, could you end this, please? This is just getting worse and worse and worse. I mean, so they are going to make their own deals with Iran and also their own deals with countries like China, which seem like maybe more reliable allies than us. So I think Bob has seen the big picture of the damage to the US Standing in the world.
- [05:28]
B
I think that those are the two things that struck me, just like the Arab states maybe feeling like they need to take deals with Iran now, which is just dramatic change from just a couple months ago, just for economic purposes. And then just as general principle, you know, it's kind of a piece of a lot of the. From the Trump era. There are these, like, kind of general principles that just were things that existed since I was born that, like, you didn't really have to think about. Right. The president leaves when an election is over. You know, that president follows a Supreme Court ruling. Right. You know, that we are going to maybe have disagreements, but, like, generally, you know, work in concert with our allies in the democratic nations of Europe and. Right. Like, there are just all of these general principles that Trump has upended. And this one of, like, freedom of navigation on the seas is something that just has been the norm in the post World War II era. And the US through, you know, sometimes through military power, but also, just, like, projection of strength and, you know, fear from other countries of wanting to incur the WRATH of the U.S. you know, we've had, like, these freedom of the seas for commercial ships to travel globally, and that is now in question. And if you listen to Trump in his interviews, he doesn't seem to really prioritize or care about returning to that. And you hear him say a lot like, well, we've got a lot of ports. We got ports in Alaska and Texas, and people are getting our oil from us now. I don't know. In some ways, Bibi was on 60 Minutes talking about how he talked to Trump, about how Trump wants to send in troops to go get the nuclear stuff. Who knows if that's true or not. That's what Bibi says. And so you have that like kind of pushing for more aggressive action. On the other hand, you have Trump like not seeming to really care that much that the Strait of. Again, maybe it's bluster, but like. And if he decides that it doesn't really matter because we have our own ports and our own oil exports and, you know, if Iran decides to put a toll on the Strait, like that's a problem for Asia but not a problem for us, like that's what he decides. That's a major shift in kind of how the world has worked and one that decreases our power.
- [07:41]
C
Yeah, I mean, it's America first and taken to its reasonable conclusion. Not reasonable, but logical conclusion, I guess. Yeah. Which is who needs all this upholding the international order and providing a public good of, you know, free transit of the seas, holding open straits that are thousands of miles away from us and so forth. Let others do it. We've got our ports. Maybe we'll take care of our immediate vicinity. And that's actually in their strategy document. Western hemisphere comes first. I mean, the price we will pay for letting the whole rest of the world outside the Western Hemisphere, maybe somewhat in the Western hemisphere too, but certainly outside the Western hemisphere, kind of just topple into or descend into, you know, man eats dog, everyone, or dog eats man, whatever, which is that man eats dog, can't remember anywhere. Everyone for himself. You know, countries just. Just making their own arrangements. It can be sort of stable for a while. These countries will watch out for themselves and they'll act in their self interest. But that's what kind of got us into two world wars. It's not a recipe. Eventually it'll come back to bite us. I mean, it didn't 1914. It did in 1939. And it's certainly going to do huge damage to all, as you say, a lot of things we've just taken for granted, this global trade and commerce. Everything that we just sort of assume happens that it gets interrupted by the pandemic. And that was terrible. But then it got back on course again and we quibble about, argue about, be permitted to have these particular chips and all that. That's a national security question. Fine. But in general, the principle that we can. All these goods will flow and I mean that ends. Nations can't depend on us. They look to their own weapons. They suddenly decide they have to arm themselves. You just get regional conflicts all over the place. Regional accommodations all over the place to various dictators. No, it is the end. I mean, it's what a lot of people have been writing about, we've been talking about. And it's been sort of clearly beginning to happen for the last year and a half, the end of the post World War II order. But this war in Iran really has, what do you think, been the exclamation point on that? On the end of that.
- [09:41]
B
Yeah, accelerant was the word as news, but yeah, same thing. Yeah, same trajectory. So just to that point, and the latest on talks is the same as it's been. But should mention that over the weekend, the Iran Foreign Ministry responded to a U.S. proposal to end the war, and their response included sovereignty over the state. Sovereignty. People get mad at me, whatever, over the Strait of Hormuz and a bunch of other stuff that Trump responded and said was not reasonable. So that's where at same as it ever was.
- [10:12]
C
But you're right, one thing Trump seems to stress over and over is the nuclear material. It's a little weird. I mean, honestly, this stuff is not usable right now. It seems to be buried away. If they try to start getting at it, we will see it and can act to stop them, I should think. I'm not against getting the stuff out of there, but the idea that we fought this whole war because of stuff that we pulverized, obliterated in was that June of last summer. It's just ridiculous. But it is very revealing that one, I think he says, just because that's very important to Israel, honestly. And for Bibi, really stopping the nuclear program and not even giving them any remnant of one is so important. It's not consistent with America. First, that nuclear dust, as Trump calls it, poses zero threat to the United States of America right now or for the foreseeable future, but imposes effect to Israel, which is, you know, the real thing. We should. In the old days, we worried about that because we worried about threats to other nations around the world and destabilizing influences and so forth. Sort of left over in this case because of Trump's being close to Netanyahu, I suppose, but. So he keeps repeating that. He never explains why that's so important. But it is very striking how after a week or so where opening the Strait of Hormuz was important to us, that we closed it so we could, I guess, for the sake of opening it now, that seems to just recede. We have this blockade there. What's the point of it? I mean, to tighten the screws on Iran, I guess. So they'll then be more reasonable on the nuclear thing, it's an awfully.
- [11:33]
B
To me, it just feels like a tangible. And Israel is part of it for sure, but also just feels like a tangible thing. Trump can wrap his head around. That's like, this is something that we did. Like, he wants. We'll get to a trophy, a statue. Like he wants something right now. Like, the argument is, is weak. It's like he can sense it, you know, like he tries to say, like, they've been obliterated. And it's, it's like, okay, so they've lost their ships. But like the nuclear, the nuclear. That's the thing for him to say, like, we got the nuclear.
- [12:00]
C
That's a good point.
- [12:00]
B
I do think that there's a simplicity and talking point element to it. This is kind of related to all this. But it struck me Trump did an interview with Cheryl Atkinson, who is a little kooky these days. She's got her own YouTube channel. Nothing wrong with doing news on the YouTube. I'm doing that. Subscribe to the Bulwark YouTube if you haven't already. But she's got a pretty kooky channel. Trump did that, and he said this about the strait. NATO has proven to be a paper tiger. We don't use the strait. We don't need it. We don't need the strait. We were doing it to help Israel and Saudi Arabia. We don't need it. We don't use it. There's just so much revealing about that there. We're doing this to help Israel and Saudi Arabia. He just comes out and says it again, contra America first. But also just the degree to which NATO had nothing to do with this. We didn't call NATO. We didn't get NATO involved. This was not a defense issue. Has nothing to do with the NATO treaty. But he is looking for any excuse to kind of blame NATO and more kind of formally separate from those countries because he doesn't like them personally, because he feels like they're mean to him, et cetera, et cetera.
- [13:12]
C
And he wants to blow up the. To the degree he has any view beyond the personal, it's that he wants to blow up the post World War II order, which he vaguely thinks has been bad for the US Though it's been very good for the US And NATO is a key part of that. Yeah, I mean, the normal, incidentally, person who knows a little bit about international trade, you say, who benefits a lot from this trade, people would say Asia and Japan and South Korea, two kind of important allies of ours. He has no thought about them. Bob made the point to me. I don't think he shows this in the piece. The Japanese, the Japanese Prime Minister, she went pretty far in trying to really accommodate Trump and get along with him. She came here, swallowed hard when Trump made his Pearl harbor joke. Remember that? And she was in the Oval Office, that was shortly after the war began, I think. And she got a lot of grief back at home, apparently, for not speaking up a little more on that. But whatever, that's what it was. Trump couldn't care less about that. Why do we have the troops in Japan, from Trump's point of view, incidentally, I mean, and therefore, Japan starts thinking, we've got to take care of ourselves. South Korea starts thinking that suddenly Asia, which has been very stable for a long time, and that's been pretty good for the world, that starts to fall apart. I mean, the key thing. I just want to worry about Baba's piece. He uses the word defeat, and I think he does that on purpose to kind of really try to bring home to people, this is a real defeat. It didn't quite work out as well as we hoped or didn't quite get all the things we wanted or kind of a stumble. It's an important defeat for the United States.
- [14:33]
B
When Trump, when she was there, the Prime Minister was visiting. I remember he makes this joke about how we weren't warned about Pearl harbor when she was complaining that Japan wasn't consulted. And we were saying at the time, it was like, hmm, how did Pearl harbor work out for the Japanese? Like, not great in the end, ended up weakening them quite a bit. And really, there are a lot more parallels than maybe he realized between our action in Iran and Pearl Harbor. Deleteme makes it easy, quick, and safe to remove your personal data online at a time when surveillance and data breaches are common enough to make everyone vulnerable. Deleteme does all the hard work of wiping your personal information from data broker websites. It's easy. All you have to do is sign up and delete me. Know exactly what information you want deleted, and their experts take it from there. As a somebody that has an active online presence, to say the least, I made a mistake this weekend. I think I started engaging with random Louisiana. Influencer accounts, you know, because I'm just so fucking pissed about the VRA thing. And so then I'm getting more and more random people who are like, local political influencers in my feedback and MAGA ones. And so I started replying to them, and my husband is like, is this creating a greater likelihood that we have a confrontation at Lafitte's blacksmith shop, and I was like, maybe slightly so maybe I should stop doing that. But point is, I'm online a lot, so, you know, you want to have the protections, the basic protections that you can have within the context of my behavior. And Deleteme helps me do that. They send regular personalized privacy reports showing what info they found, where they found it, and what they removed. It gives me and the family a little peace of mind to know that it's constantly monitoring and removing the personal information that we don't want on the Internet. Take control of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for Deleteme now at a special discount for our listeners. Get 20% off your Delete Me plan when you go to JoinDeleteMe.com Bulwark and use promo code Bulwark at checkout. The only way to get 20% off is to go to JoinDeleteMe.com bulwark and enter code bulwark at checkout. That's JoinDeleteMe.com bulwark code bulwark. On the NATO point you had Phillips O' Brien. On your conversation with Bill Kristol. There is some pretty interesting developments happening in the Russia Ukraine war. Putin started sounding a little bit of a different note, and his hate to even call it a press conference, whatever you want to call it, with this kind of Kayfabe gatherings that he has to make pronouncements with state media in front of him. But he started talking about how maybe the war could be ending soon. Zelensky wants to come to Moscow. He's doing kind of the Putin thing where he was speaking in code a little bit and trolling a little bit. But also definitely it was different than in the past, his bravado of how Russia was on the march, et cetera. So he starts opening the door to maybe finding an off ramp. And this is happening, I don't think, coincidentally, simultaneously with Ukraine gaining a lot of military ground for the first time in a while. And the front lines have been pretty stagnant, thanks to drone warfare. So, anyway, you had a long conversation with Phillips about this. I'm wondering what your takeaways were.
- [17:46]
C
Yeah, I mean, Phil really is a military historian, so he really knows the military stuff. And very early on he thought Ukraine would hold. And he's always been more bullish on Ukraine than the conventionalism and was right for the first two years, three years, frustrated that the US didn't do more and Europe could have done more. But he was basically right that Russia would not walk right over them. He was right that unlike Trump, who believed they would, and that Russia holds all the cards, and then Trump holds all the cards. Now, Phil and everyone else is very worried. Obviously. A year ago, when we started, we cut off our aid, which was kind of important. But it turns out Ukraine's progress in the drone side of things and the progress of drones as a military weapon and the transformation of the battlefield that they have caused is pretty astounding. And he says, really, a kind of. He doesn't like to use the term revolution in military warfare, but, you know, a real transformation. And so that's enabled him to stabilize the battlefield and maybe have a bit of an advantage now and also the Russian casualties. Kathy Young has a good piece on the website, on the Bulwark website about this kind of sad victory day parade Putin had where they cut it back. First he went to Trump to get Trump to get Zelensky to promise not to attack it with drones. Actually, Zansky did, but he sort of trolled Putin by kind of embarrassing him. And. And also the other point he made that I hadn't really thought as much about is we're all happy Orban, but one real practical effect of Orban losing is that he'd been blocking the $90 billion of aid from the EU to Ukraine, which probably is enough for them for the next year, so they can keep on, not just keep on fighting, but take the fight to the Russians. So that looks much more promising. Ironically, I mean, in a weird way, Trump's forced the Europeans to step up and they are doing so much more. Mostly it's Russia that's forced the Ukrainians to depend on themselves and have this fantastic ability to make the drones. But still Trump's accelerated that probably. So, yeah, that war looks like it's going better. I think Putin's sort of throwing something out here on the. Well, it could end if only Zelenskyy comes to Moscow. We'll negotiate something. But of course, Putin's terms are not going to be acceptable to Zelenskyy. Putin wants to keep probably 20% of Ukraine that they have, and that's not gonna happen. So I'm dubious that there'll be an agreement. There might be a bit of. You could imagine some ceasefires, though, and that kind of thing. Maybe what Phil is most worried about is Putin and Trump actually getting together, maybe with Chinese sort of backitude to really kind of agree to actually make things tougher on Ukraine. Trump has been out of the war. He hasn't really been an aggressive adversary of Zelensky at this point, but it could get a little worse.
- [20:13]
B
I mean, the counter to that is that's been disastrous in Iran, this kind of shift within the Trump administration, but maybe points to a little less worry on that front that he's going to align so much with Russia, is that the people with his ear right now, at least, are the relatively more pro Ukraine, not as pro Ukraine as we would like, but the relatively more hostile to Russia elements of his administration, be that Marco or the people outside the administration he's talking to Tson and Levin, et cetera. The war in Iran has been kind of more what that crowd wants and less what the JD Vances of the world want. So we'll see how that plays out. But it's an interesting development. And the other potential is, which kind of ties to what you're saying at the top is Trump just deciding to wash his hands of this altogether? You know, it is the inevitable destination of America first, like, let's. I don't care about this at all. The Europeans can hash this out, the Arab nations, states can hash this out. And I'm going to pivot back to the Western Hemisphere and focus on toppling Cuba. And we have a couple of pieces of evidence of that. Many more surveillance flights over Cuba than previously. There's reporting on that over the weekend. And that is in line with kind of what they were seeing before we went into Venezuela and Iran. Trump expressed in that same YouTube interview a frustration that the Cuban regime hasn't already been toppled by the economic pressure we've been putting on Cuba. And he's basically saying once we deal with this one, we're on to the next. Something to that effect about pushing towards Cuba. So that seems inevitable at this point.
- [21:51]
C
I guess so. I mean, absodert. Our former colleague said in a conversation about three weeks ago or so I said this could lead, you know, Iran could lead him to sort of say, ugh, maybe I should avoid all this foreign, these foreign adventures and, you know, get back to demagoguing on domestic issues and better luck with that. But she said, no, the psychology is he can't. He needs a big win and Cuba's the easiest one and he's got some support for it here because Cuba is a terrible regime and we've been so at odds with it for so many decades. Yeah, I really wonder whether he's thinking, you know, August, September, before the midterms, maybe not even that far off, you know, June, July, time for the, I guess the invasion of Cuba or just the pressure, kind of a Venezuela type situation. I don't know. But apart from the bad ideological elements of the Trump administration, it's driven so much now by his megalomania and vanity and all that. It really is dangerous. A lot of it could peter out into silly things. You know, I hate all the triumphal arch and the statue and all that stuff, but in a way, you've made this point before. You know, maybe it's better if he just distracts himself with all that, you know, and doesn't go around causing huge foreign policy crises which do real damage to us and the world. But unfortunately, it's of a piece, you know, and I suspect the. I suspect we're going to see something with Cuba. Yeah,
- [23:08]
B
summer is right around the corner and I love the heat, so that just means I get outside more and more. We moved here to Louisiana, we moved in the summer, and immediately everybody was like, I'm so sorry for this weather. And I was like, this is why I'm here. I want to leave in the winter to go to other warm places. It's that Lebanese skin. But you know, when you're outside, when you're seeing concerts, you're just going to a crawfish boil. You need good outdoor clothes. You need something comfy and cute. Thanks to Mack Weldon, I got the wardrobe staples I need to be ready for anything. You can discover upgraded basics, fresh styles and more@mackweldon.com plus get 20% off your first order of 125 bucks or more with code the Bulwark. I got a few Mac Weldon pieces I really like. You've probably seen, I got these little short sleeve button downs that I'm doing now. A lot of short sleeve button downs for the pod. It's just the button down and the necklace stunts when I'm out there, you know, among the people. Put on a little tank top underneath, have that short sleeve button down open. A little more of a casual look. Mack Weldon's got a bunch of different options to choose from, and I've been digging them. I've also been looking at the Ace collection. They've got some Ace sweatshirts that are cozy for sitting around the house. That's good for podcasting too. You know, it's like business on top, party on the bottom. So the Ace collection, something I think you should look into as well. Add comfort and flair to your closet. This year with the Ace line, it's the go to choice for guys who want to look great without even trying get moving with Mack Weldon. Comfortable anywhere. Go to mackweldon.com and get 20% off your first order of 125 bucks or more with promo code double or that's M A C-K-W-E-L-O-N.com, code the bulwark. I want to move forward to the domestic stuff. Obviously there's a bunch of panic and rage and anger in Democratic circles over the redistricting ruling we were discussing. This was kind of happening as we were taping on Friday with Adam Serwer. The Virginia ruling comes down that negates the will of you and your fellow Virginians who voted in a ballot initiative to redraw the maps. The courts overturned that. So we have a couple of things happening simultaneously. I mean there is, I just think complete righteous anger about what is happening in the south and how the Republicans are going to try to redraw out all the districts that are represented by blacks in the old Confederacy. And then you also have, I think, a real, I don't know if panic is the right word, but concern among Democrats about okay, is there any way to mitigate this right now? Because I think that the House of Representatives still looks quite likely to flip to the Democrats, but it's a much closer run call now with the way that the Republicans have successfully rigged the map in some of these states. So a bunch there. I was wondering what your initial reactions are. We'll go through a couple of the elements.
- [26:10]
C
I'd say they threw out a referendum on a pretty shaky, technical, alleged problem with the way the state legislature did it and fourth free decision. I think the dissent's stronger than the majority opinion, but it's not no way to really overturn it. I wouldn't say. I think that would have moved from a 6 to 5 Democratic apportionment to 10 to 1 probably. I think in any kind of decent democratic year that 6 to 5 goes the current 6 to 5 goes 7, 4, maybe 8, 3. A couple of those districts are pretty close.
- [26:38]
B
I think eight, three, you know.
- [26:40]
C
Yeah. You know, so, so it's a two seat loss. That's a Democratic redistricting thrown out by the court. So we have a weird way of appointing judges here in Virginia. It's from court judges. So I don't think to be fair, that's it's not clear that's racially driven. I mean it's not partisan.
- [26:53]
B
The racial stuff in the south is truly insane though. Just really quick like it's very pretty rare that A court overturns an election result. Right. Like there aren't a ton of examples of that. And to do so on four, three
- [27:07]
C
grounds is a highly litigated one. Yeah, I know.
- [27:09]
B
It's a little.
- [27:10]
C
Very unus. And forces. Yeah. And turns around what people were planning on in terms of the districts they were going to run on the primaries in August. The Southern stuff is pretty grotesque. I mean, I really feel. I just can't quite believe to see it happening in 2026. Let's just have no blacks in our congressional delegation in these states that have 20, 25% black.
- [27:31]
B
30, 33.
- [27:32]
C
Yeah. Population. I mean, I don't know. And also, it's so undisguised. I mean, now the partisanship and the racism have a high correlation, as Jelly Amor has pointed out. But of course, one reason the court was able to get to the decision was sort of a fake statistical thing. Well, it's not really about race. It's about partisanship. But you know, what if one party gets 92% of the white vote and the other party gets 90% of the black vote? What are you proving when you say it's about party, not about race? I mean, it's the same things. And this is about race, literally. I mean, the decision, the Supreme Court's decision, the US Was about race and gutted Section two of the Voting Rights act, which had been passed and repassed by Congress by huge majorities. Again, it's a good case. Sort of like you're saying about the referendum. This isn't just tweaking with something or an administrative interpretation of the Clean Air Act. This was a major legislation that was passed by Congress.
- [28:26]
B
That's three times. Yeah, it was reauthorized under. It was reauthorized under Reagan and then reauthorized again under W. Bush.
- [28:32]
C
Right. By big bipartisan majorities. And they've been chipping away. Well, more than chipping away at it for undercutting it for quite a while. And this was maybe the final blow. So Sarah and I discussed this some yesterday. I mean, I. I guess Sarah's very. Got to persuade more people and stuff, which is correct, I think. I think also some of the anger can be beneficial in the sense of mobilizing Democratic turnout, including minority turnout in some of these states, which could help with the state. With the Senate elections.
- [28:59]
B
Actually.
- [28:59]
C
They can't redistrict the Senate, you know, so can't gerrymander the Senate any way that it is already in terms of rural representation. I remain pretty optimistic. I actually Don't. I mean, I think it's going to be a very big blue wave, and I think it's probably going to swamp these. The house will be plus 30 instead of plus 25 instead of plus 30, honestly. And I think the Senate's in play. But maybe I'm kidding myself. And I don't blame the pros, the operatives, for looking at it and thinking, Yikes. Final point, though. I'd say people are a little too fatalistic about these districts and about the ability of the Republican legislatures to draw them so brilliantly. I saw the Tennessee district. So they've shot Memphis up into three pieces. So there's no black, no majority minority district. In 2018, when Brederson run, ran for Senate, I guess. Right. And lost. He was a strong Democratic candidate. So that caveat stipulated he got in the new districts. If you go back and calculate what his vote was, 48 or 49% of the vote, I think in those three Memphis, partial now Memphis districts, if 2026 was a good year, Democrats could win one or two of those seats, maybe three. I mean, so I think that's true in some of these other states, too. I think that they're not so sure that Democrats can't do okay, but it is certainly a hurdle.
- [30:15]
B
And there are two things to look at there just on that point about whether the Democrats can win. They can win some of these districts, but it's not as if they will win so many that it backfires on Republicans. And they can mitigate the Republican gains by winning some of the districts. And that is definitely true. Tennessee is going to be very hard, though. The state's moved more to the right since 2018, and Bredesen was a good candidate. And it is just a total outrage, you mentioned to cut up Memphis into a third, a third, a third. They also cut out the black vote. A third, a third, a third. I mean, it was a purely racial gerrymander in Tennessee to ensure that black voters in Memphis do not have the representation that they choose. Notably in this one case, in all the other districts, it's a black representative. In this case, it's a white representative. Steve Cohen, though, he was in a primary with Justin Pearson. But however that ends up playing out, they divide the city into thirds, which is illegal and an affront and racist and all those things. And so, look, I don't want to totally demoralize the people of Tennessee because they simultaneously are living in a basically undemocratic estate that has basically done everything possible to minimize their Democratic rights. They also have the benefits of having a couple of horrific candidates like Andy Ogles and Scott Desjolet are particularly offensive even within the constructive maga, right, where everybody is offensive like they stand out as uniquely offensive. So it's possible to go win some of those seats, but it's pretty, it's tough. And Lauren Egan's article, which is well reported that we have in the book yesterday, it was pretty depressing to me because it was just like, what is the Democrats plan? And it's oh, we've got to run candidates more suited to winning these districts. And I agree with that. We do. But it's too late to recruit candidates now. It's in May. And there are a lot of things preventing Democrats from doing that. And you can't overcome this level of cheating solely with persuasion, and persuasion is part of it. But the cheating is pretty effective, at least in the South. For the Republicans, it's spring cleaning time, which is a great time to address some of those household tasks you've been putting off. If you've noticed that you're not sleeping well and it's time for a new mattress, our friends at Helix are here to help. We got a ton of guests in and out around here. We got another one coming this weekend. And there's one thing about having them that's been a little annoying, which is that our Helix mattress is in the guest room. So when we have guest staying, I can't go do my little afternoon Mimi nap in there. And sometimes I'm getting better sleep on that Helix mattress in the guest room. But that's okay. I got a good mattress in my room as well. But we're getting rave reviews for everybody who's coming through for Jazz Festival and elsewhere. And I trust them, so you should too. Helix delivers your mattress right to your door. I had to unpackage it by myself. I'm incompetent. I can't do anything. Can I just say my husband, I forget where my husband was. He was gone. We had a guest coming. I had to unbox it and put it on the bed myself. And I did it. And if I can do it, I promise it's easy. And you can do it too. You can do 120 night sleep trial to make sure you have the right mattress for you. Returns and exchanges are easy and the Happy with Helix guarantee offers a risk free customer. Right now Helix is having their Memorial Day sale go to helixsleep.com bulwark for 27% off sitewide exclusive to our listeners. That's helixsleep.com bulwark For 27% off helixsleep.com bulwark the Virginia thing, I just want to throw this at you. There's a proposal going around in some quarters about changing this rule to lower the mandatory retirement age of Virginia judges to 54, which would essentially fire all the judges on the court. And as Suhas Subramaniam, who we had on the podcast, who's a big supporter of the amendment, said this, we have Republican states ignoring their constitutions, interrupting early voting and ignoring their supreme Courts altogether. We know based on that, Republicans would explore every single option possible to move this forward. So we should do the same. He's pushing for that. I think that that is is interesting as a political matter that a quite moderate member of the Virginia congressional delegation is pushing maximum warfare here. I think that's notable and encouraging this specific tactic feels like a bit of a stretch to me even. But I don't know, I'm curious, I'm intrigued. What's your reaction?
- [34:48]
C
Yeah, I think it's a stretch. And what he's responding to is what is happening in the other states. Right. He doesn't act. I mean, Virginia Supreme Court has been pretty bipartisan ish that this was a pretty partisan decision. I think if people ahead of time had said this is a disaster, it shouldn't go to the court at all, whatever. But you know, they have they argued the case. I think they thought they were going to win it the state. So no, I don't think that's going to happen. Probably shouldn't happen. I'm certainly for all kinds of hardball. I was for the Virginia redistricting on that grant, but that was a legal constitutional matter. And precisely they had to have the referendum because the Virginia Constitution required it. And they also required the two state legislative sessions passed it and that's why they did the October or November, whatever it was, session and then the next one. And that's what the little technicality is about, is that really voters went to the polls in October not knowing that members had voted or would vote in favor of this thing. It's honestly kind of a ridiculous technicality, I would say. I mean, but anyway, technicality maybe giving it a little too much dignity. So no, I'm not really with I'm not with that particular move, but I'm certainly in favor of I agree with you. You can't win wish away the cheek. Look, this is we have all been saying for year and a half, as some of us have been saying, that they're going to do whatever they can. They're going to do whatever they can for 26, they do whatever they can for 28. And whatever they can involves voter suppression. It involves God knows what kinds of shenanigans in terms of the actual voting in September and October and then in the counting of the ballots. It also involves this kind of thing. So we shouldn't be surprised by it. We should be ready for it, I suppose, as much as we can be. I think going for the intra Virginia, destroying the Virginia Supreme Court, you know, is a little bit of a weird, a weird way to fix this problem, I'd say.
- [36:25]
B
Yeah, I'm kind of with you. I love the energy though, so keep the energy there. People should be looking to Suhas as kind of a way to have the right energy.
- [36:33]
C
People really need to look at these states and districts. I think Lawrence Peace was excellent. Tennessee may be the worst case. But I don't know in some of these other states where there could be competitive Senate races, for example, really increased minority turnout could make a difference in the Mississippi or something like that. And so it'd be ironic. I've thought about this, everyone. I always like conventional wisdom could be, you know, is wrong, could be wrong or reversed. Everyone. The absolute conventional wisdom. House is pretty easy for the Dems, Senate pretty impossible. That was six months ago. Then it became House very easy. Senate possible. It would be funny if the Senate ends up being sort of, you know, because of this redistricting, the House becomes more of a headache and the Senate starts to go fall into place. I don't think, I think it's overstating it, obviously, but.
- [37:16]
B
Well, J Mart wrote in Politico about worries about backlash and I don't know, I think maybe I'm too beaten down by the last 10 years to, to be hopeful about that. But the point that he was making is that Republicans did make a lot of ground with black voters, not really with black women, with black men. Trump was the high watermark in a couple decades for Republicans and just the overt effort to overturn the progress made of the civil rights era and to take away voting power from black folks, I think could help on margins and on engagement turnout and that could make a difference some of these states. Again, will that make up for the rigging and the cheating? I don't know. But it could matter in some of these districts and I hope it's true and people should be outraged and motivated rather than dispirited. Because I do think that while the House seems tougher today than it did when we taped on Friday, the Democrats are still still favored to take it.
- [38:18]
C
So ICE and Border Patrol have infuriated Latino voters quite justifiably. It should have infuriated all of us. And now the court ruling should infuriate, will infuriate and the subsequent state legislative action which is so aggressive and beyond the pale, should infuriate black voters. So, you know, Trump doesn't win without better numbers. And they're not huge among blacks. They're pretty big among Latinos. Yeah, it doesn't win in 2024. They don't win the House to Republicans without that spillover from Trump. So it matter if there's a real reaction. Leaving aside like maybe some decent white people might be offended by this too.
- [38:54]
B
You know, God willing, I'm a little dispirited about the hope for decent people coming to the defense of others, you know, but maybe it will happen and they should be fucking righteously pissed and hoping to make a difference this November. And maybe that will also come in concert with some MAGA voters feeling not that that motivated to turn out. So I, I, I do think that's the, that's the caveat here. But boy, it's, it's enraging and, and pretty negative development.
- [39:27]
D
Your social media feed says, eat more protein. Track your sleep, boost your VO2 max. Wake up in cold plunge, Cleanse yourself of parasites. You're intrigued but confused. So where can you turn? Welcome to Health versus Hype, the show where we take the loudest wellness trends on the Internet and ask the questions only science can answer. What's real, what's exaggerated, and what is completely wrong. I'm Trace Dominguez. Each episode, we show the science behind viral health claims. From high protein diets to cold plunges. Detoxing to sleep. Tech obsession. And we talk to the people in the middle of it all. Influencers. The curiosity. Curious, but more importantly, doctors and researchers. Not to cancel the trend, not to hype it more, but to understand it. Listen to Health vs Hype with the American Medical association on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Slow the scroll. Start asking better questions.
- [40:25]
E
Lots of places can expose you to identity theft. That's why LifeLock monitors hundreds of millions of data points a second for threats to your identity, which is way more than anyone can do on their own. If we find anything suspicious, like new loans or changes to your financial accounts, we alert you right away, all through text, phone, email, or the LifeLock app. Save up to 40%. Your first year visit lifelock.com iheart Terms apply.
- [40:56]
B
Let's get to the fun. Here's some other things that could cut against the Republicans. Just their total lack on focus about the concerns of of the American people of all races and genders and ages. The Secretary of Transportation, Sean Duffy, not like that important of a role. Secretary of Transportation, usually not at the center of our public debate, but in a moment where everybody is pissed off about gas prices, pissed off about the rising price of air travel, you'd think that he would be laser focused on trying to alleviate those concerns. Instead, he was on Fox and Friends on Friday announcing that.
- [41:32]
E
So I wanted to lean into America's 250th birthday. Rachel and I actually met on a road trip on a reality TV show. And so over the course of seven months we just kind of found these moments where I might be able to do some work. I could take the kids with me. Do a road trip.
- [41:47]
C
Oh yeah.
- [41:47]
E
And our motto is to love America is to see America. And there's so much to see in this beautiful country.
- [41:53]
B
A seven month road trip for the Secretary of Transportation. We're paying his salary. He's going to do some work. He's going to do some work while he's on a seven month road trip. Well, everybody is enraged about skyrocketing gas prices. To call that tone deaf feels like an understatement.
- [42:12]
C
I couldn't agree more. They're also, they're so self centered and smug and self satisfied. Such jackasses. They don't see how this stuff looks. I hope it looks bad and I hope people take advantage of it. Honestly, Democrats should create fake road trips and have little, I don't know what they should. I'm not good at this kind of thing. But you, some of our friends would be good at figuring out putting little, you know, mock ups of Duffy and his family in some car and having them go around everywhere, you know, not doing his job. Isn't it paid for? Was it paid for by various corporations who put the money into some 501c3?
- [42:46]
B
Yeah, it's paid for by a nonprofit run by a transportation industry lobbyist and funded by various transportation companies that are seeking Douglas favor. Things like Brightline, the private railway and I think Toyota was in there. It's like what the swamp is buying off Sean Duffy so he can take his family to go see Mount Rushmore and the Arch and the Grand Canyon.
- [43:11]
C
America, to love America. See America, Tim, you know, you just anti American, your typical anti American lefty bulwark Type, you know, people aren't going
- [43:20]
B
to be able to go on road trips this summer because they can't fucking afford it. Sean Duffy, like, what are you doing?
- [43:26]
C
Cleverer people than I should think of ways to bring this home. Yes. Airplane ticket. As plane ticket prices soar because of the price of jet fuel and its gas prices soar. Yeah, I absolutely got to really make Sean Duffy more famous. They're really bad, you know, the Trump. Maybe you haven't noticed this. The Trump cabinet is really bad. They're not just incompetent, pretty bad. They're just all smug assholes, if I could say so, you know.
- [43:50]
B
Yeah, it's true. You know, Sam and I a couple weeks ago had did our cabinet ranking worst cabinet officials. And it's tough and it's competitive. It's really tough. Choosing having to narrow it down to the worst four was a challenge.
- [44:02]
C
Is one of them, two of them respectable, do you think?
- [44:05]
B
We always keep coming back to Doug Burgum as the respectable one. Doug. But that said, there are some stories about some pretty strange ways which he is treating his staff. So I don't know. It's really one of the worst collections of individuals you could possibly imagine. Speaking of which, why don't we get into the comedy? One of the other ones, this is macabre dark comedy, I guess, was our Secretary of Health and Human Services, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. We have the hantavirus going around pretty serious. The people on the ships, for some reason, we're bringing one person that was exposed to hantavirus on one of these cruise ships back to America to quarantine. I'm kind of like, can't we quarantine that person somewhere else? Do they have to be quarantined here? And there's some concern importance that Robert F. Kennedy is in charge of that given his past comments and beliefs about how to deal with these kinds of pandemics and epidemics. John Mulaney, the comedian who did the famous Trump is the horse in the hospital bit, which was really good. He had a comedy show at the Hollywood bowl this weekend and some of the video leaked of that. And it's so good, I just want to play.
- [45:20]
C
Back when I lived in New York,
- [45:21]
B
he was in charge of a thing called the Riverkeepers. They were in charge of keeping the Hudson river clean. That was his job. That's how good he is at jobs. His old job was keeping the Hudson river, whose native fish is tied off used condom clean. Now he's in charge. Now I'm in charge of Your bones and your tummy do shit fast. Your thing can't be the measles. Did you get the measles? Did you read the card?
- [45:52]
C
It was from me.
- [45:54]
B
Do you like having the measles?
- [45:56]
C
Very much
- [45:59]
B
so. That leaves me pretty concerned about the hantavirus, I guess. I don't know.
- [46:04]
C
Yeah. No, not a. I think I'm staying off cruise ship. I was going to stay off cruise ships anyway for the next end years.
- [46:10]
D
Maybe forever.
- [46:11]
C
Yeah, that's the easier way to say that. I think I'll just stick with that resolution. Yeah, yeah.
- [46:18]
B
You're not gonna go on the MAGA gay cruise. We had a lot of going on.
- [46:22]
C
If you looked into that more closely. That's your kind of. Yeah, yeah.
- [46:26]
B
I have an update. I have an update. There was a cruise of gay MAGA influencers for people who don't follow who are just pod only. We do a series of videos with Will Sommer and me and Sam Stein trio videos where we talk about the craziest stuff happening in Maga over on the Borg takes feed and we did one on the this and I didn't really know a whole lot about it. I just, I'd seen a MAGA gay that I follow had posted about his time there and so we kind of. We watched that video and made fun of him and riffed on that. But after we published a listener posted on the Bulwark Reddit page that they were on the ship, that they hadn't like rented out a ship for the MAGA gay cruise. Like when you did the weekly standard cruises, I assume it was all weekly standard pieces. No, no, no, no.
- [47:13]
C
At times you would get 250 cabins on a thousand cabin ship.
- [47:16]
B
So I did not realize.
- [47:17]
C
And you would eat together and you would have your own seminars and stuff in your own. You know, you'd get the ballroom. But no, no, no.
- [47:22]
B
So I did not realize that. And so in this case, that cruise was about a third. And then this person was posting the pictures of them like all of the gays in their red shirts like over on the corner of the boat and they weren't the cute gays. We should at least say that. But I don't. I just, I can't imagine, and I mean a. I can't imagine going on a cruise vacation in any circumstance. But talk about the bad luck. And I guess we had to rank worth luck of getting on cruises. Getting on the hantavirus cruise would be definitely number one, you know, since your life is at risk. The poop cruise. I Think number two would be the second worst. But then getting on a cruise and having it be the game, that has to be number three.
- [48:08]
C
Nice. Three generation family from, you know, Worcestershire, Kansas. This is going to be the 75th birthday of the grandparent. This is out a lot of these crazy things, right? The teenage kids in between the parents your age and then showing up, you're
- [48:26]
B
on the pool deck and it's a guy in a Hillary for prison speedo. You're like, what? Okay, I want to go with the. Your newsletter this morning was about. I told you there'd be laughs. The newsletter this morning is about the gold statue because we have the policy of not playing Trump's voice. I'm not going to play the audio, but there was a dedication of a golden calf at Mar a Lago. I don't know any other way to say it. It looks just like Kim Jong Un's golden statue. It looks just like the calf from the Old Testament. That's more of your area than mine, the Old Testament. Maybe you have some ruminations on that. Trump calls into the dedication, talks about how great it is, how excited it is, how excited he is. He talks about how he went to the golf course. People were complimenting him about the golden statue. Pastor Mark Burns, who was the pastor, I guess, in charge of the statue, posted this today at Trump National Doral. History was made. I'm deeply honored to lead the dedication event for President Donald J. Trump and the unveiling of the 22 foot statue created in his honor. This was far more than a ribbon cutting. It was a moment for gratitude, honor and remembrance. Remembrance. Let me say this plainly, this is not a golden calf. The statue is not about worship. It is about honor. So I don't know, doth protest too much. A little bit maybe. Do you have any thoughts on this?
- [49:53]
C
I think, let me say this plainly, this is not a golden calf. It's like not a good thing you ought to have to say about something if you're a pastor. Blessing and consecrating this wonderful, grotesque, pretty ugly.
- [50:06]
B
Why was it a pastor if we're not worshiping it? Why was I. Shouldn't it have been a layman? I don't know if the clergy was necessary.
- [50:13]
C
Yeah, they could put up the idiotic statutes. His own golf course. I guess it's private property. None of the rest of us has to see it anymore after this one video. Much well deserved ridicule for Pastor Burns. A lot of people rallying to his defense. That guy Jeffries, who's like an Anti gay, anti Semitic, racist, anti Catholic pastor, I guess is your policy that we don't call them pastors if we don't. I mean, I'm open to that.
- [50:39]
B
Pastor Doug. I didn't want to call a pastor Pastor Doug Wilson because he doesn't seem to even do any pastoring. His entire Persona is just that. He's a pastor that wants to bring slavery back. So Jeffress, I remember him being very bad. There's a big controversy around McCain.
- [50:56]
C
Yeah, terrible.
- [50:57]
B
McCain said he didn't want to be a church.
- [50:58]
C
He does have a church, I think.
- [50:59]
B
I mean, I don't know. I'm on the fence. I'm okay with. We're just calling him Robert.
- [51:04]
C
Okay. Anyway, Pastor. Yes. The pastor doth protest too much about this. It's not a golden calf. You know, everyone immediately sees it and thinks having this, quote, consecration. And everyone immediately thinks golden calf.
- [51:16]
B
So the first words out of his
- [51:18]
C
mouth are, it's not a golden calf. But don't even think about that.
- [51:20]
B
You know, it's raising some additional questions. Could have made it silver, could have made it orange. Trump's orange. That would have been an option. Purple.
- [51:29]
C
Trump tweeted that it's like it's the real deal. It's gold. It's of course, like 18 inch, as I said, 1 16th inch gold, but whatever. It's ghastly. But at least it's. I mean, I make this point in the newsletter. It's not as stupid golf. People signed up for Trump. Doral have to endure it, I suppose. I think the world leaders. Isn't the G20 meeting there at the end of this year? They have to walk by. How humiliating. I mean, really, what a group. Semi serious country. And you have to walk by this 22 foot grotesque gold statue of Trump which he's put up. I mean, electrically. Dotors have put up at his club. And he's thrilled about it. He's thrilled when he called in that people are taking pictures of themselves with it. On the other hand, it's not good for Trump politically. It brings home even more. All he cares about is himself. And then of course, I do think the arch here in Washington, which would intrude on Arlington Cemetery. So that's not something. Something that's one of our most sacred public spaces. That's a different matter than putting up some idiotic statue to yourself at your private club and the ballroom. He wants a billion dollars for. Democrats really need to go crazy about that stuff. I'm worried they're like being a little too we gotta focus on affordability, Tim. And kitchen table and the gas prices,
- [52:42]
B
it's all the same.
- [52:42]
C
Important. It's all the same. It's all the same. But he is. I mean, the solipsism, the narcissism, the focus on this. Couldn't care less about the gas prices. Sean Duffy doesn't care about it. None of them cares about them. It's not that guy Wright, the energy secretary. Maybe he does a little better job pretending to at least be concerned about them. I don't know. But they're not. It's pathetic, really. None of them cares about what actual people are going through. And I say this in the newsletter. I think you and I discussed this maybe shortly after 2016, when Trump said in 2016, Hillary says, wants you to say, I'm for her. But I say, I'm with you. I'm with her. I'm with you. Right?
- [53:21]
B
Yeah, I'm with her.
- [53:21]
C
I'm with her. That was their proud slogan. First woman president. And I say, I'm with you. And I remember thinking, when I heard that first, I think in some speech in New York, but then at the convention in Cleveland, think that's a pretty effective line, you know, and he's done. And then, of course, with Kamala, it was the same thing. She's with them. She's for them. They I'm with you. That I'm with you thing is gone. And people need to just hammer home that he's from Only could care less. He's a narcissist who cares only about himself. And the ballroom, the statue, the arch are pretty good, concrete examples of it that people can understand, I think.
- [53:56]
B
Amen. I think it's a big political opportunity. It does make you a little sick to your stomach. I don't really consider the Doral part. The fact that the G7 is a Doral is a total insane affront. Thinking about Matt Iglesias post about this this weekend, it's just I got mad all over again about the coverage of Hillary's email server from 2016. He posted an analysis of it, and it was like the three major nightly news spent like 4x more time on her email server than all policy issues combined. And it's like they don't even cover this stuff anymore. What server is Jared Kushner talking to BB and MBS on? I don't think a public server that we can get access to. And the whole thing is absurd. And so there's not even the commensurate level of outrage at all about the fact that the G7 is at dirt, but then on top of that, to have to have Friedrich Merz walking by the Trump Golden Calf when he comes to the G7, that's like fucking ridiculous. It's crazy. It's sickening. And hopefully politically useful, but sickening. And I was thinking about that in the context when we were in the Green Room discussing we have our Bulwark confab in D.C. on Wednesday, and so Pod might be out at a weird time on Wednesday, FYI on that. We'll have a full announcement for you guys tomorrow on how we're going to do it, but I'm like, I don't want to have to go by the buildings that have his face on it. I don't know how you all live there, to be honest. That makes me kind of sick just thinking about it, about how gross it all is. And that's of a piece with the calf, too. So I don't want to end us on a down note. So the Netflix was a joke thing last night. I didn't really have an angle for a deep political analysis angle for this Chelsea Handler joke. It just was very satisfying. So, Bill, why don't I say goodbye to you and then we can just leave people with a little. We can just listen to Chelsea Handler together and laugh. How does that sound?
- [55:51]
C
I'm for that. All right, good being with you. I'll see you in December. Now, we'll listen to the joke, we'll laugh, and I'll see you tomorrow, right,
- [55:58]
B
in D.C. yeah, we'll see you tomorrow night. We'll see you on Wednesday in D.C. everybody else will be back tomorrow with another edition of the podcast. Here's Chelsea.
- [56:06]
A
Now that your favorite leader is making
- [56:08]
C
the draft mandatory, I assume that all
- [56:10]
B
of you will be signing up to
- [56:11]
C
go fight in Iran.
- [56:12]
B
Or do you tough talking pussies only go to the Middle east for comedy festivals? I'm so happy we can say pussy again. Bye, everybody. See you tomorrow.
- [56:25]
C
I never use this night in bed. Hearts.
- [56:45]
B
The Borg Podcast is brought to you thanks to the work of lead producer Katie Cooper, associate producer Ansley Skipper, and with video editing by Katie Lutz and audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
- [56:57]
F
Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway this spring. Sweeten your day one sweet treat at a time. Now through May 26th. Whether you're shopping for gifts for friends and family or just want to pick me up for yourself, get great deals on your favorite sweet treats. Shop in store or online and save on items like Reese's Peanut Butter Cups, Trident Sugar Free Gum, Albanese Gummy Bears, Kinder Wafer Eggs or Snickers bars. Get these deals before they're gone off Ren's Mate 26 restrictions apply. Offers may vary. Visit albertsons or safeway.com for more details.
- [57:29]
E
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