The Bulwark Podcast — September 15, 2025

Episode: Bill Kristol: What Does 'They' Mean?
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Bill Kristol

Episode Overview

This intense and sobering episode sees host Tim Miller joined by Bill Kristol to grapple with the political and cultural fallout from the shocking assassination of Charlie Kirk. The discussion weaves together personal reflection, a critique of extreme rhetoric and illiberalism on both left and right, and a sharp analysis of the weaponization of tragedy in current US and global politics. Listeners are offered a thoughtful defense of liberal democracy, a warning against cycles of violence, and a call for more responsible civic and political leadership.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Tim Miller's Opening Monologue: Grappling with Assassination Aftermath

[Timestamps: 00:55–22:21]

• Tim expresses deep anger and distress at the response to Charlie Kirk’s assassination, particularly the lack of discussion about gun culture, the misrepresentation of online subcultures, and the horrifying rise in people—some known personally to Tim—expressing that “Charlie had it coming.”

• Moral Clarity: Tim clearly distinguishes legitimate criticism of Kirk from gleeful acceptance of his murder:

  “Let me be clear. Don't fucking do that. I consider anyone who is pro-assassination of Charlie Kirk a foe. Even if we voted for the same person in the last election.” [09:48]

• Liberal Democratic North Star: Tim grounds his worldview in liberal democratic ideals:

  “I believe that people should have an opportunity to live a life of purpose and meaning if they choose to, and that the government should do what it can to foster it and do what it can to protect people from threats to that... another way to put it, threats to their life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. That's my North Star.” [10:36]

• Critique of Hypocrisy: He draws parallels between defending the rights of unsympathetic figures—referencing Kilmar Brego Garcia’s case—and the necessity to do the same for Kirk, emphasizing the rule of law and due process.

• Danger of Political Violence: Tim warns against a spiraling cycle of violence reminiscent of “the Troubles” in Ireland, where both sides enable the other’s extremism.

2. Assassination Response and Political Polarization

[Timestamps: 22:22–30:42]

• Bill Kristol’s Reaction: Bill bluntly assesses the assassination and its polarized aftermath:

  “It's very bad when someone gets murdered, assassinated. It's very bad when the reaction is immediately polarized and politicized... I think with more culpability and impact on the right... you have the President of the United States leading that reaction and weaponizing it.” [23:37]

• Historical Perspective: Bill notes historical rarity of US political assassinations and warns that “one does tend to lead to another if you look at history.” [24:19]

• Asymmetry: Both point out the contrast between Democratic leaders’ responsible reactions and the right's weaponization of the tragedy.

3. The Role of Propaganda and Demonization

[Timestamps: 26:18–32:27]

• Stephen Miller’s Dangerous Rhetoric: Tim highlights a quote from Stephen Miller threatening to use state power against a broad, ambiguously defined “you”—which could encompass anyone opposed to MAGA:

  “The power of law enforcement under President Trump's leadership will be used to find you, will be used to take away your money, take away your power...” [26:18]

• Bill Analyzes the “They” and “You”:

  “That ‘everyone else’ is a very broad group, since Stephen Miller is the person who said the entire Democratic Party is... a domestic terrorist just last week... If you are in any way part of the opposition to Donald Trump, you are part of what Stephen Miller is targeting.” [27:00]

• Danger of Dehumanizing Rhetoric: The hosts note the deliberate use of vague pronouns (“they,” “you”) by MAGA leaders to foment fear, justify crackdowns, and cultivate a sense of civil war.

4. Scapegoating and Transphobia

[Timestamps: 32:27–37:56]

• Tim and Bill discuss an acute effort to scapegoat trans people following the assassination, despite facts contradicting right-wing narrative.

• Bill calls out the irresponsibility:

  “Holding... any relationship one has with a trans person, any person who commits a crime, has such relationship, is now that's going to be blamed on the trans individuals, on trans rights... it really is appalling.” [33:53]

• Tim notes the desperation of MAGA to pin the blame on the trans community, reflecting broader efforts at demonization.

5. Irresponsible Speculation and Investigation

[Timestamps: 35:20–37:56]

• Both criticize Utah Gov. Spencer Cox and others for “freelancing” on shooter’s motives and possible radicalization, arguing that this jump to conclusions is unhelpful and often rooted in poor understanding of internet/gamer culture.
• Bill:

  “People my age should not be even pretending we have some... the foggiest idea for what's going on in gamer world...” [36:53]

6. MAGA, Far-Right International Movements, and Illiberal Momentum

[Timestamps: 40:29–45:30]

• Bill discusses the global context: connections between America’s MAGA right and far-right movements in Europe, referencing Putin’s ideologue Dugin, and the massive far-right march in England led by Tommy Robinson.

  “[Dugin] basically a fascist... They're in the right place. They are the American front of this global war between... fascism and liberalism.” [40:29] “The movement of the far right, further right, and the accelerationist... element of what's happening on the right is terrible.” [43:52]

• The discussion highlights the real, alarming international coordination among illiberal forces (e.g., Elon Musk’s visible support for right-wing marches).

7. The Need for Pro-Democracy Organizing and Liberal Counter-Mobilization

[Timestamps: 45:30–51:21]

• Tim proposes that this tragedy should galvanize “liberal” and pro-democracy organizing to counter the effective organizing of figures like Kirk and TPUSA, especially among youth.

  “We could use... something like [TPUSA] that communicates and galvanizes people against illiberalism throughout the world... in particular.” [47:53]

• Bill references layers of necessary work: intellectual, political, and grassroots community organizing—with a call for unity despite current intra-Democratic squabbles.

8. On Responsible Voices and Reason for Hope

[Timestamps: 51:21–62:39]

• Both note that, despite some ugliness on the left, the most prominent leftist figures (AOC, Zoran, Hasan Piker) have demonstrated responsible leadership in condemning violence and upholding democratic values.

  “Probably the two most prominent leftists... AOC and Zoran and then the streamer Hasan Piker and all of their responses were extremely responsible.” [52:02]

• Bill closes with encouragement, reflecting on the heroism of Americans like the slain officer David Rose and his own positive experiences speaking with students:

  “There are people like [David Rose]... for all the talk about how horrible our politics are... it was a really admirable and heroic person.” [60:40] “A lot of the students he [Jay Nordlinger] meets are, you know, intelligent. They don't like Trump and Trumpism. They don't like the radical parts of the left...” [61:39]

Notable Quotes

• “Being for democracy means you are for their ability to express them and that you will push back on them in the public square. You will try to push back on them at the ballot box... that is what being in the pro democracy coalition is.”
  — Tim Miller [18:23]

• “One does tend to lead to another if you look at history. And so you just don't want to be living in a country where [political assassination] becomes routine...”
  — Bill Kristol [24:19]

• “The power of law enforcement under President Trump's leadership will be used to find you, will be used to take away your money, take away your power, and if you've broken the law, take away your freedom.”
  — Recounting Stephen Miller [26:18]

• “If you are in any way part of the opposition to Donald Trump, you are part of what Stephen Miller is targeting.”
  — Bill Kristol [27:00]

• “Actual American greatness... means tolerance at home and standing up to bullies abroad.”
  — Bill Kristol [61:39]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro & Tim’s Monologue: 00:55–22:21
• Kristol Joins & Assassination Reaction: 22:22–30:42
• Weaponization, “They” and “You” Discourse: 26:18–32:27
• Transphobia, Scapegoating, Investigation: 32:27–37:56
• MAGA & Global Far Right: 40:29–45:30
• Organizing Liberal Counterforce: 45:30–51:21
• Positive Example & Hopeful Notes: 51:21–62:39
• Signoff: 62:39–end

Tone and Language

The tone is frank, at times profane and impassioned (particularly from Tim), but always rooted in a defense of principles over partisan animus. Both speakers mourn the loss of civility and warn of a dark path if cycles of retribution and illiberalism deepen. Still, they end with encouragement, citing responsible political actors and hopeful student engagement.

Useful For

• Those seeking a comprehensive, reality-based analysis of a major political assassination and its broader social impact.
• Listeners interested in the defense of liberal democratic norms against illiberal threats—left, right, or international.
• Anyone curious about how leading “Never Trump” voices are processing grief, anger, and the need for strategic counter-mobilization in a new era of volatility.