BONUS EPISODE with James Carville: We Are the Opposition

Summary

The Bulwark Podcast: BONUS EPISODE with James Carville – We Are the Opposition

Hosted by Tim Miller

In this bonus episode of The Bulwark Podcast, host Tim Miller engages in a candid and insightful conversation with renowned political strategist and commentator James Carville. The discussion delves deep into the intricacies of the recent election, the Democratic Party's challenges, strategic opposition in politics, and looming national and global concerns. This summary captures the essence of their dialogue, highlighting key points, notable quotes, and the overarching themes that emerged throughout the episode.

---

1. Introduction and Context

Tim Miller opens the conversation by referencing their previous discussion about a Kamala Harris parade and introduces James Carville's upcoming documentary, Winning is Everything. Stupid, set to premiere on Max on November 14th.

• Tim Miller [00:39]: “I'm here with the Ragin Cajun, James Carville.”

James Carville reflects on the evolving political landscape, emphasizing the importance of providing the country with something different in response to its desires.

---

2. Analysis of the Recent Election

Carville critiques the Democratic campaign's shortcomings, identifying two major mistakes that contributed to their electoral outcome.

• James Carville [01:03]: “This election really boiled down to two massive mistakes.”

He points out the failure to present a compelling alternative to President Biden and the inability to effectively answer the critical question posed during debates: “How would you be different than Biden?”

• James Carville [03:00]: “It's the one question that you exist to answer. All right, that is it. That's the money question.”

Carville argues that freezing and failing to articulate a distinct vision left the party vulnerable, especially when the country expressed a desire for change.

• James Carville [04:53]: “Winning is everything. Winning when you have to win, it's more important than loyalty. It is everything.”

---

3. Democratic Party's Demographic Challenges

The discussion shifts to the Democratic Party's performance across various demographic groups, highlighting a troubling trend of losing ground among working-class voters and those without a college degree.

• Tim Miller [10:29]: “If you do not have a college degree and are upper middle class, the Democrats, you know, lost ground with you. That is, that seems to me like just a massive problem.”

James Carville attributes this decline to the party's shift towards what he terms "identitarianism" or "woke" politics, which alienated many traditional voters.

• James Carville [12:20]: “I call it identitarianism. But most people refer to it as woke.”

He laments the party's inability to move away from this stance in time to salvage the election.

• James Carville [13:48]: “We did that box interview in the spring of 2021. It was just evident that this was a really dumb, backwards looking, NPR, idiotic move.”

---

4. Strategic Opposition: Building an Effective Opposition Party

Carville emphasizes the necessity for the Democratic Party to embrace its role as an opposition party, adopting strategies that focus on holding the current administration accountable rather than merely maintaining the status quo.

• James Carville [13:53]: “We're all in an opposition party. Understand that.”

He proposes innovative ideas such as restructuring the Democratic National Committee (DNC) to function more like a strategic opposition force, capable of crafting narratives that resonate with voters disillusioned by the Trump administration.

• James Carville [14:36]: “We ought to take over the DNC... settle on a narrative about Trump... betrayal is a big part of the Bible.”

Carville suggests that the party needs to highlight Trump's betrayals and contrast them with the Democrats' commitment to the middle and working classes.

---

5. Addressing the Forgotten Men and Working-Class Voters

Tim Miller raises concerns about the Democratic Party's disconnect with working-class voters, referencing their widespread losses across nearly every demographic.

• Tim Miller [10:29]: “The Democrats just did worse across every demographic group that is a working class does, non college, black, Hispanic, Asian, Native American, white, everybody.”

James Carville acknowledges the problem and underscores the importance of reconnecting with these voters by presenting genuine alternatives and addressing their specific needs and concerns.

• James Carville [15:29]: “Do you think that the banks and all companies and Musk and then you think they lack power? Well, yeah, I didn’t like... we have to tell them that.”

He stresses that the Democrats must offer clear reasons and policies that resonate with the working class to regain their trust and support.

---

6. Future Concerns: Global and Domestic Challenges

The conversation broadens to encompass pressing global and domestic issues that the United States faces, which require robust opposition and strategic planning.

James Carville expresses deep concerns about the ongoing conflict in Ukraine, the complex sentiments influencing Middle East policies, and the looming threat of climate change.

• James Carville [21:47]: “Everything. ... I don’t know how they could possibly think this was a good idea.”

He warns of the potential for increased corruption and the dire consequences it may have on the nation's future, emphasizing the importance of the opposition's role in mitigating these threats.

• James Carville [22:43]: “The corruption that we're getting ready to go through and the consequences of it are going to be just draconian for the country.”

---

7. Concluding Thoughts and Moving Forward

As the episode draws to a close, Tim Miller and James Carville reaffirm their commitment to serving as the opposition, recognizing the immense challenges ahead but remaining steadfast in their mission.

• Tim Miller [23:28]: “I'm happy to be in the opposition with you. And we have no choice.”

James Carville echoes this sentiment, underscoring the critical role they play in countering the current administration's policies and safeguarding democratic values.

• James Carville [23:28]: “We have to hold them off, get to 20, 28.”

They wrap up by encouraging listeners to support Carville's documentary and remain engaged in the political process to foster meaningful change.

---

8. Notable Quotes

• James Carville [03:00]: "It's the one question that you exist to answer. All right, that is it. That's the money question."

• James Carville [04:53]: "Winning is everything. Winning when you have to win, it's more important than loyalty. It is everything."

• James Carville [13:53]: "We're all in an opposition party. Understand that."

• James Carville [22:43]: "The corruption that we're getting ready to go through and the consequences of it are going to be just draconian for the country."

• Tim Miller [23:28]: “I'm happy to be in the opposition with you. And we have no choice.”

---

Conclusion

This bonus episode of The Bulwark Podcast offers a compelling and thorough examination of the Democratic Party's recent electoral setbacks, the challenges of appealing to a diverse electorate, and the strategic imperatives of functioning effectively as an opposition party. James Carville's expertise and candid reflections provide listeners with a nuanced understanding of the political dynamics at play and the urgent need for strategic realignment to address both current and future challenges facing the United States.

For a deeper dive into these discussions and more, listeners are encouraged to watch James Carville's documentary, Winning is Everything. Stupid, available on Max starting November 14th.

Transcript

[iFly Advertisement]

Holiday magic is in the air at Ifly Indoor skydiving. Imagine unwrapping the experience of flight. Ifly is the perfect unique gift for anyone who wants to turn their dream of flying into a joyful reality. It's unforgettable fun for all ages. Save over 35% with iFly's limited time holiday gift voucher. Flight packages turn dreams into unforgettable moments with the gift of flight. Go to iFlyworld.com to purchase your holiday gift vouchers. That's iFlyworld.com.

[Tim Miller]

Hello and welcome to a bonus edition of the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. I'm here with the Ragin Cajun, James Carville. He's got a documentary that one of our last podcasts was featured in and it is live on Max November 14th. Winning is everything. Stupid. James, the last time you were here, we were talking about a Kamala Harris parade. I guess they rained on our parade, brother.

[James Carville]

Yeah, well, they did. So let's just say let's review the bidding. So you and I have been in politics for a long time, all right? And if the country wants something different, you try to give the country something different. And I think that this election really boiled down to two massive mistakes. First, nothing we can do about it. Biden gets out July 21st. Understand that there's this massive amount of talent in the Democratic Party, as I say, playing this.350 hitters all over triple A ball. We just don't know. And no, she gets out. He gets out of the 21st. Told Adam de Gurney, we didn't even get a chance to kick the tires. Who just said, you're buying the car and you have no choice. And of course we bought the car. But I think all people like a campaign that is reducible to one moment. And I think if this campaign is reducible to one moment, we're in a 65% wrong track country. The country wants something different. And she's asked is so often the case in a friendly audience on the View, how would you be different than Biden? It's the one question that you exist to answer. All right, that is it. That's the money question. That's the one you want. That's the one that everybody wants to know the answer to. And you freeze. You literally freeze and say, well, I can't think of anything. So we said 65% want something different. We are just not going to give in to him. But maybe the odiousness of Trump combined with the Dobbs decision, we can overcome it. Well, we didn't overcome it, but when we go back and history unearths this, it's going to be right there on the View. And I think her name was Sunny Houston. Houston or whatever asked the question, and that's the most devastating answer you could imagine.

[Tim Miller]

I think that there are some limits to the value of various particular recriminations given the broad scope of the movement towards Trump. So I want to talk about that a little bit in a second. But on this minor point of Biden, I think she was also worried about him. I think that he got out, but he got out late. And it also, to me, felt like that there was still an era of sensitivity around all of it, that, like, you know, people were walking around eggshells. They didn't want to hurt his feelings. Like, rather than what should have happened, which is him saying, I'm passing the torch. You do what you need to do to win. I didn't feel like there was a sense of you do what you need to do to win. And I think she was torn a little bit by kind of loyalty and worrying about that.

[James Carville]

And I bet you what the answer is going to be, and a true answer is going to be president. People like him. He has a lot of friends, a lot of people really like him.

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[James Carville]

All right. She being one. And look, he gave me big shot in politics, and I'm a loyal person. And I just, I just couldn't. I just couldn't do it. I was told to do it, and I think she was, and I just couldn't bring myself. And, you know, that's why winning is everything. Winning when you have to win, it's more important than loyalty. It is everything. If you don't win, you have done nothing. And we're unfortunately, we finding that out the hard way. But I am sure that when we told what happened on the View is going to be, well, they had given me the answer, but I just couldn't get the words out of my mouth. That's a very human thing. But when you're running for president, you're not allowed to have human reactions to the most fundamental question in the election. And that is, how are you going to be different than what you got? And we flubbed it.

[Tim Miller]

The hardest thing about this for me, James, is that, like, I don't know, maybe there's some elections where winning is not everything. Maybe there are times in life where doing the moral thing is important or maintaining your integrity or saving yourself for down the line. But if there was ever a time when winning was everything, it was this time.

[James Carville]

You're right. We've been in elections and you're Mitt Romney if it's Obama, if it's Bob Noble Clinton, you want to win. You think you have better ideas here. It's just fundamentally the Director of National Intelligence is his view and people in the whole intelligence that he's being blackmailed by food. Jesus, how bad can you get? But I don't like the price of eggs. Okay, but we're going to pay dearly for this. I mean, we're really going to pay.

[Tim Miller]

I do want to get into the price of eggs element of this and the inflation. But one other thing, just kind of about the campaign itself, looking back, that I wanted to talk to you about, because the last time we were on, I said to you that one of my worries was I just, I just watched the documentary for the, for the first time. And you know, it's showing the old clip of the white board. You know, it's the economy, stupid. What about health care? You know, you had your three points on the white. On the white.

[James Carville]

First thing, first thing was change versus more.

[Tim Miller]

Change was more the same.

[James Carville]

And we were the more the same candidate.

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[James Carville]

We staked out a position to be the more the same candidate.

[Tim Miller]

And I said to you in that podcast, I was like, what are her three things? If yours was change was more of the same. It's the economy, stupid. And don't forget healthcare. What were her three? And I just. The big moments were good, the set pieces were good, the speeches were good, the debates were good. So I don't want to come off as overly nitpicky, but at the narrative level, what were the three things? That was something that was sticking in my brain the whole time as a worry that I don't know that regular people knew.

[James Carville]

We doubled down on more to say, yeah, all right. And then the second thing was it actually said the economy stupid. But if you want to say it's economy stupid, that's fine. And we tried to convince people that it was, and it probably was better than it was given credit for, but that's not a case you're going to be able to make in a. In a month.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[James Carville]

So we in health care didn't figure into it, but on the two basic fundamentals, we flubbed it.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[James Carville]

And people go to all. By the way, she had every advantage with a united party from Dick Cheney to aoc. Everybody was, whatever you want to do is fine. We had more people on the ground. We had more volunteers. We had more money, all right? We had more surrogates, but we didn't have a reason. Since the dawn of time, since the first Greek stood in the middle of Athens and said, this election is a choice, all right? And we have had every piece of technology. And you can imagine printing presses, you know, radio, tv, computer, AI algorithms. It's still a reason. It's the most powerful motivating thing in all of politics. And you cannot not have a reason and beat it with technology or beat it with volunteers or do that. And that's the overall message here, Tim. A reason. And she didn't give us a reason.

[Tim Miller]

I mean, she. I guess, in fairness, the reason, I think what they would say is, you know, freedom. Right. Like we're turning the page. But it was. It was a little surface level.

[James Carville]

It was. Yes. I mean, I'm sort of gonna say, well, we had a. We had a housing plan and that. You did.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[James Carville]

Great. Okay. The housing plan is number one. And if we would have had this process, would have had gone through it, and we'd have had this mega level of talent that exists, and all of these people would have been different. They would have been energetic. It would have created a sense of real excitement. Biden, he just blocked all that from happening. I'm sorry. Then he goes on to. After the election, he says, you know, we're going to be fine. I mean, who's Kevin Bacon? Like, all is well.

[Tim Miller]

Calm down.

[James Carville]

All is well. Just stay in place. Okay? Don't worry. It's all under control. Don't you love that scene?

[Tim Miller]

I do. Animal House.

[James Carville]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

And that's what. That's right. And that's what we're. We have the Animal White House coming, and. Yeah, I know. I didn't like it either. I mean, I know you feel like you want to be the president and you want to follow the rules, but there are legitimate things to be worried about, you know? And, like, I just think sanding down the danger is not really helpful.

[iFly Advertisement]

Holiday magic is in the air at Ifly Indoor skydiving. Imagine unwrapping the experience of flight. Ifly is the perfect unique gift for anyone who wants to turn their dream of flying into a joyful reality. It's unforgettable fun for all ages, save over 35% with iFly's limited time. Holiday gift voucher. Flight packages turn dreams into unforgettable moments with the gift of flight. Go to iFlyworld.com to purchase your holiday gift vouchers.

[Tim Miller]

That's iFlyworld.com the other thing I really wanted to talk to you about, I mean, thinking about both the movie and your life, you know, you come from regular folk, you know, and the Democrats, the main takeaway from the election, if you get out of the political strategist stuff with nitpicking messaging and speeches and whatever tactics, like the thematic thing is like the Democrats just did worse across every demographic group that is a working class does, non college, black, Hispanic, Asian, Native American, white, everybody. Like if you did not, if you do not have a college degree and are upper middle class, the Democrats, you know, lost ground with you. That is, that seems to me like just a massive problem. And I just, I kind of open ended question, like, is it fixable? What do you do to fix it? Like, what do you, what do you. How did the party get here?

[James Carville]

So one thing I'm no longer criticized for and people have said, well, you know what? In the end of the day, you're right, James. When I use the term quote preachy females, unquote.

[Tim Miller]

Oh boy.

[James Carville]

That meant coastal over educated lecturing. But the other thing that happened in my new name for it, I call it identitarianism. But most people refer to it as woke. We couldn't wash the stench off of us. I mean, she didn't embrace it. To be fair to her, she never used any of that language. Waltz didn't use it. But people were still remembering that in, on election day, there was a prosecutor in Alameda county, which you're a resident of, I think. Or used to be for sure.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, used to be.

[James Carville]

Which is they recalled her by 30 points because she was an advocate of identitarianism, which is not even popular in Berkeley. Yeah, right, okay. I mean that's how, that's how unpopular.

[Tim Miller]

No, San Francisco. San Francisco got rid of their mayor, got rid of the most obnoxious city council member. Oakland got rid of their mayor and.

[James Carville]

Prosecuted dealing, although she didn't. No one talks like that anymore. The stench of it. It's like I tell people, you know, you close, you get fireplace and you get close. Smell smokey. Somebody smoking a cigar in a room. Or you smoke a cigar and then you put your shirt on the next morning and goddamn thing stinks. You gotta wash it twice. That's what they did to us. They were cigar smoke in our clothes and we couldn't get the smell off. It was bad. And people keep telling me today, well, I don't like to fucking change it. I don't like to what left to the Democratic Party? I don't like all that, you know, well, no one, we did. It was a mistake. And, you know, I go back and I did that box interview in the spring of 2021. It was just evident that this was a really dumb, backwards looking, NPR, idiotic move. And of course, we all came to realize that, but it was too late.

[Tim Miller]

What do they do? I mean, how do you get working people back?

[James Carville]

So this is what we do. So Kristel's peace is the rallying point. All right? We're all in an opposition party. Understand that. Understand what an opposition party is. Opposition party by nature has no power. So Hakeem Bashumba, maybe they can get a, a couple of things that they need, but they're not going to get anything. So we have to start acting like an opposition party. This is the most radical. And don't laugh when I tell you this idea. Okay, no problem. You know how private equity looks to some existing place that has a distribution network but is a kind of failed company they're going to buy. We ought to take over the dnc. They have a charter to have a building. They have tax exempt status. They can put people and put communicators in there and put people there that know how to be part of the opposition and have a research side and crank out the distribution tables on what? And settle on a narrative about Trump. And the narrative that I think should be about Trump is betrayal. That he betrayed you. Look, you aren't offering change. He said he was for the middle class. He said he was for the working people. He said. And then in. As soon as they do this, you know what they're going to do. You already know. They're going to write the tax code for loan. Lon Musk and Peter Thiel. All right, get ready for it. You know it's coming. It's just, you know, it.

[Tim Miller]

It's not coming, James. It's already here. I'm just pulling this up here. Axios this morning. We're taping this on Friday. Axios this morning. Big winners to watch. Oil and gas, crypto and tech firms, Musk's companies and banks are all poised to benefit from Trump's agenda. Are those the forgotten men?

[James Carville]

Yeah. I would like to ask the kind of Latino male that voted for Trump, was this what you were voting for? Do you, do you think that the banks and all companies and Musk and then you think they lack power? Well, yeah, I didn't like, you know, I like to. Okay, fine. And we have to tell them that. And you know, people say, I'm going to My kid is going to, I don't know, ucla. And they want to be in politics. What should they study? They should study the history of the Bible because every message in politics comes right out of the Bible. And the whole Trump people, he's King Cyrus. He's the strong guy. Should be. No, he's. He betrays you. And betrayal is a big. Is a big part of the Bible. And as opposed to telling people that they were wrong, which is a hard thing to do. Well, you thought he was going to do this and look what he did. You now you know. And that's the only way. But that's the way we come back.

[iFly Advertisement]

Holiday magic is in the air at Ifly indoor skydiving. Imagine unwrapping the experience of flight. Ifly is the perfect unique gift for anyone who wants to turn their dream of flying into a joyful reality. It's unforgettable fun for all ages. Save over 35% with iFly's limited time holiday gift voucher flight packages. Turn dreams into unforgettable moments with the gift of flight. Go to iFlyworld.com to purchase your holiday gift vouchers. That's iFlyworld.com do the Democrats have.

[Tim Miller]

I know that you said they got a bunch of 350 hitters across and I think that that's true especially for the midterm electorate which is much more college educated. The type of electorate of people that show up in off your elections are much more democratic friendly. And so I think that they've got a lot of strong bench for midterms. Do they have a strong bench for talking to the working class people that the parties want?

[James Carville]

Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, you never see Bashir, Spiro or Westmore or Warnock or. I don't. I hate just giving names. Yes, sir. But do that. You say somebody. So what they should do, and this is kind of weird, we should have. We did it back in the 80s. We should have a mini convention in the summer of 2026 and we should invite top tier candidates to speak to the convention and maybe have like a straw poll. You have to create, you have to show people you have all of this talent. Okay, we got to play an exhibition game or we have to have home run derby and let these guys come up and just crush, you know, batting practice pitches and hit them 400ft and let people see that. I mean, let people see that there's help out there. There's hope out there that we kept all of these people. Mitchell, you know, I. If they would Never do this. He probably wouldn't take it because it's thought to be a dead end job. Although in the right set of circumstances, doesn't have to be. I would make Mitch the chairman of the dnc. I would have him as the, you know, going on TV and putting Paul Bogal out there on Sunday morning shows as a communications director or something. I mean, somebody that knows how to deliver a message, knows how to frame an argument, knows how to do all the stuff that we weren't able to do in this cycle. But there's talent out there, dude. We just, we gotta get, we gotta, we gotta have a home run derby. Let them all speak to a mini, a fake mini convention in the summer of 2026.

[Tim Miller]

There's just so much Mary in the film. I have to ask, what'd she think about all this?

[James Carville]

Well, I got, you know, she's coming up tomorrow, but I suspect she's pretty happy. But the really interesting backstory of the movie is the director said, there's two people. I have to have James, I have to have Bill Clinton, and I have to have Mary to make this work. And I said, I can get you Bill Clinton, but I can't get you Mary. Okay. So he takes her to dinner at Cafe Milano and he says, he's like. And he's trying to persuade her and she's. And the actual. The hero of the whole movie is Gore Vidal, because Matt, the director, used to work with Gore Vidal. Advantage Fair. And Mary had read all of Gore Vidal's books, and Gordon Doll read a really good review of Mary, and I wrote a good review of Mary and I's book in the New York Review of Books, which kind of set the tone, you know, like, go for all New York Review that. Who. Who's gonna. So that was the common thing. So he gets her to say yes instead of out in the Shenandoah Valley and that just. He gets to talk for six hours. But the cameraman didn't have a tripod. And a guy is sitting there dying, you know, holding the camera up, and he's like, you know, we, we got all of this. And she was spectacular in it. I mean, just spectacular. She looked great. I mean, she was very honest sometimes to my detriment, but, you know, and I think it was good for her to get, you know, some of the stuff out. But she. The movie would not be the movie without her. Without her, it would have been a pretty good movie. With her. It's way better than a very good movie. And I mean, I know It's a good movie. And not being arrogant about it, it's just. It's just, it's a good director. It's well put together, it's well lit, it's well edited. It's carries a narrative. I mean, the whole thing. But. But without Mary, it doesn't. It doesn't work like this at all.

[Tim Miller]

I agree. All right. What are your fears? What are you worried about? What are your feelings?

[James Carville]

Everything. I don't know about you. I mean, just start with Ukraine and I start with, like, I don't know, somebody. I'm gonna have to sit down with a person to explain to me the Palestinian mind that in effect, turned over US Middle east policy to Donald Trump and BB Netanyahu. I don't know how they could possibly think this was a good idea, but they do. That would be the beginning. So that three. This is November 8th, I guess, today. Yeah, the 8th. There are three system in the Atlantic Basin right now. There's a Category 3 in the Gulf of Mexico. Fortunately, it's going to go west. It'll. It'll be. By the time it gets to Mexico. It will not. But you have a Category 3 on November. Maybe this is real, but that's just one thing to think about.

[Tim Miller]

Climate change, you mean?

[James Carville]

Right. And of course, the corruption that we're getting ready to go through and the consequences of it are going to be just draconian for the country. And I notice. And the only thing that we can do is we have to be all part of the opposition and we have to oppose, oppose, oppose. They got all the power in the world, and they're going to run right over all of the people that voted for them. They're going to run right over all of the other people. And all we can do is, like, rally the opposition, hold them off, get to 20, 28.

[Tim Miller]

So, yeah, James. Well, I didn't want to be in the opposition with you, but I'm happy to be in the opposition with you. And we have no choice. We have no choice.

[James Carville]

You know, it was like the guy that won the Bell of Honor and he said if there was some way for me to run, I would have run. I didn't want, but I didn't know where to go, so I just had to shoot everybody.

[Tim Miller]

Well, we're going to do the best we can and we'll keep the combo flowing. Thanks for. Thanks for always hanging with us, and I appreciate, you know, your efforts.

[James Carville]

Thank you. Go Tigers, man.

[Tim Miller]

Go Tigers. Thanks to James Carville. Go check out on Max. November 14th his movie. Winning is everything stupid. We'll see y'all soon. Peace.

[James Carville]

Thank you.

[Unknown Artist]

All of my fears are in vain I've just lost, lost lost my way but in spite of all the wrong things done I just cry all night cry but I still love him with all my heart Never, never, never baby did I want to move on but in spite of all the wrong he's done I just cry on that list but maybe one day before long you might decide to come back home but until then I have no relief you got me living on lonely street all of my fears all in vain I just lost, lost, lost my mind but in spite of all the wrong things done I deserve cry I deserve cry cry cry cry cry cry cry cry.

[Tim Miller]

The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.