← The Bulwark Podcast
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- [00:00]
Cameron Caskey
Hey, guys. I launched Fypod with my buddy Cameron Caskey, who was a parkland survivor that started March for Our Lives. And I did so because we wanted to talk to Gen Z influencers, Gen Z activists, people from across the ideological spectrum in Gen Z, to get a sense for, you know, why these guys, particularly guys, let's be honest, trended more, more towards Trump than us. Ernest Wessling. Millennials understand what is happening culturally, understanding what's happening with them on their phones and with their anxiety. And I'm super excited to do it with them playing the. I was about to say the dad, but could I be cool older brother? Probably not. There's a pretty big gap between us, age wise. Anyway, I'm doing the best that I can, try to learn from the kids. And so we have a huge array of guests that are going to be coming. I'm excited about some of the folks we have coming up this week. The episode you're about to hear was episode two with Joshua Rush, who was a Disney star that then quit Disney and became a political activist, political campaign professional. Now he's working in Texas, so he has more of a positive view on things than me and Cameron, who are pretty jaded. So I just wanted to give you guys a taste of it. You, you can go to subscribe to the feed. Go to FYPOD on your podcast player of choice. We'll be having, I think next week's guest is going to be pretty fun and we've got some good ones coming down the pike, so would appreciate it if you subscribe to the feed. Give us five stars. Hope you enjoy it. Up next, Fypod with Cameron Caskey and Joshua Rush.
- [01:40]
Tim Miller
I'm Cameron Caskey, I'm Tim Miller and this is FYpod. You are listening to the second episode of the record breaking and historic look, we are taking into Generation Z and you know, we're asking a lot of questions about why we're all acting so crazy. We're exploring the idea that maybe we're called Gen Z because Z is the last one and it might be over, gang. So it's over. It looks like it's over, man. I mean, we, last time we spoke, you and I, Tim, one of the President's puppet masters had done a Sig Heil in front of everybody. And then the President's puppet master said, no, no, no, no, no, one is not enough. Steve Bannon's got to go up and do the Sig Heil as well. So now we're two Sig Heils into this presidency and probably more to come. We'll just see if the orange guy decides he wants to do it as well.
- [02:51]
Cameron Caskey
It's a Roman salute. Cameron, the Sig Heil is a nice transition into the topic I wanted to pick your brain on today, and it is the Germans. Do you have any thoughts on bratwurst? Now? It's not just about the Germans, but the Germans had an election and they. Things went, I guess, better than they could have. You know, the Nazi party only got 20% of the vote and they finished in second place, which wasn't the worst case scenario, which is we can take our wins where we get them these days. But I was interested in this thread by my friend Rachel Janfaza, who's a good follow for folks if they want to. Her substack is also pretty good and she does like a little thread here on the German youth and you know, blah, blah, blah. The voter participation was, was higher. Great job, German.
- [03:42]
Tim Miller
Hell yeah, 71%. That's what I like to hear.
- [03:46]
Cameron Caskey
Nice job. German youth, on the other hand, a lot of them were moving to the right wing parties, including, including afd. And she posited that that Covid was a big reason for a lot of this. And a lot of the young Germans were not thrilled about the lockdowns and the distance learning and the social isolation. And my boy Derek Thompson wrote about a similar thing for the Atlantic earlier this week. So I just kind of wanted to start with that German election and see if you can shed any light for me on why these loners are turning to Nazism.
- [04:24]
Tim Miller
I think that a lot of right wing values, especially where the right has turned these days, are they require isolation. The Republican Party wants everybody to be further away from each other. And they act like, oh, we're gonna stop lockdown, we're gonna start start the frat parties again so everybody can get Covid and have herd immunity. But they want you to be isolated. You move farther to the right when you're isolated because you are less likely to believe in the power of what happens when people come together to support each other when you're on your own. And you know, it brings to mind the fact that I have reflected several times that I don't think I'm that far from the life where I ended up a red pill incel type guy. I mean, I saw those ideas when I was a teenager. Some of them spoke to me in certain ways. And I flirted with this idea that maybe this party of bad guys, maybe if I join the bad guys, I can win too. And the thing that stopped me from that, I mean, I think my family, I think there were multiple factors, but I really think the reason that I did not turn to the right, which my brother did, and he had the same parents, the reason that I did not turn to the right was that I did drama. And in drama class, you are around women, you're a young man and you're around women, and it's harder to other women and to treat them like this other group of people. When you're all part of the same team, boys and girls feel different, boys and girls act different. But when you're in drama class, boy or girl, it doesn't matter. You got to get on stage and make a good fucking show. And. And there were people of different races, ethnicities. That drama class really made us part of the same team. And the reason that I say this is I know a lot of young people who have moved further to the right because of loneliness. And I know a lot of young people who were farther to the right that I've watched surround themselves with other people. And the more people that they're around, the more human beings they're interacting with, a lot of their right wing views start to kind of fade away and they start to have more faith in other human beings and have more faith in each other because they understand what we can all accomplish when we come together. So I do think isolation is the main thing driving these young people into these Nazi, I wanted to say Nazi adjacent, but I mean, Elon and Steve are, sigh, heiling. You can call it a Roman salute all you fucking want. They're doing the Hitler thing. So I think, I think isolation is part of that. And I think that part of what's driving isolation is also the way our social media algorithms are kind of locking us into our belief system. So once you start to watch those self help videos made by right wing douchebags who go to the gym, suddenly you're going a little further and you're going a little farther. I was on an airplane the other day. It was really funny. In the row across from me, there was a young man, probably around my age or younger, who was constantly refreshing his crypto. And then he was going to TikTok and watching Andrew Tate and TPUSA TikToks. And then the guy in the row in front of him was watching the Tim Miller show and I wanted to go up to him and be like, hey, I'm sorry to bother you on the plane, but you know, I actually just launched a show with Tim Miller. It's called Fypod. We were number 12.
- [07:56]
Cameron Caskey
You shouldn't have gone up to the guy already watching my show. You should have gone up to the Andrew Tate guy and like, figured out how we could get into his feed.
- [08:01]
Tim Miller
Well, look, look, that was the person.
- [08:02]
Cameron Caskey
His feed we're trying to get into.
- [08:04]
Tim Miller
I'm rambling, but I do think loneliness is a big part of what's driving young people to the right. And I think that, you know, a big part of that is right wing politics are working to drive us away from each other. The attacks on the education system are designed to make sure that young people are not going to school with people outside of their social class. And it's really disappointing.
- [08:27]
Cameron Caskey
I'm with you on the loneliness thing and that having an appeal, right? Like, if you're lonely, if you don't have a support structure, if you're not hanging out with women irl, you become more drawn to the Andrew Tate, I'm a tough guy and f the man kind of element. You get drawn to that ethos. I understand that. The thing though is that. And so I want to talk about that. But if you dial it back to Covid, and this was the theory that Derek Thompson was putting forth was that a lot of this stuff was these guys feeling that the powers that be, the medical infrastructure, the government infrastructure, the schools kind of failed them where they were not really at risk of dying from COVID And their, whatever, their wrestling tournaments got canceled. They had fucking social distance graduations. They didn't, you know, get to, you know, experience their whatever these prime years of being 18, 19, 20, 21, in the way that they, that they should could have been able to. And I, like, I think that there's something legitimate about that. Like, I understand why there's maybe a reactionary response to the people that canceled the graduations. I understand the other side of that argument too, but I'm wondering what you. What you think about that.
- [10:07]
Tim Miller
You know, Covid was a real. It was a real interesting glimpse into what happens when we all don't feel like we're on the same team. And I think, you know, young people lacked the awareness and empathy to say, we're not staying at home for us, we're staying at home for everybody else. And old people, they don't deserve to die before a time for them to die. You know, that's one of the things that I saw a lot of young people saying was like, yeah, it's the old people who are at risk. And to me Since I'm such a woke hero, I was like, yeah, it's the old people who are at risk. There's this thing that old people deserve and it's called not to die until they have to. And young people were like, no, no, no. But I mean, it is just a larger government failure overall. And I think that we lost a lot of faith in our institutions for a lot of reasons. You know, I lost faith in Democratic institutions when I saw Democratic congressmen selling all their fucking stocks right before the market went down. You know, that that made me a little less flirty with the Democrats was when there were Democrats who were literally fucking gambling with our lives and making it about money. And then Republicans went in and said, here's what the people want. This is not what's best. This isn't what's going to be good for the people. But the people want to hear, no, no, no, no, go out and party. And the Republicans really know how to either give people what they want or convince them that they're being given what they want. So young people who were at home, and they were at home because they needed to be, because we needed to make sure we were stopping the spread, they said, okay, well the Republicans are saying, no, no, no, no, no. Go out, go have a ball. And why would you not want to listen to the fun uncle who's letting you take a hit of the joint when mom and dad say no?
- [12:06]
Cameron Caskey
I know. So this is where, when you were saying at the top that you kind of understand, like, you feel like, you know, had you not been a drama boy that you might have tipped over or at least been more intrigued by the red pill path like libertarian, all boys school and Rand reading. Tim comes out when I start to think about all this and the Derek article he writes, he's like, maybe some of this group will not be generation Z but generation C. There'll be people radicalized by Covid and turned conservative because of it. And like, I don't know, man, just. I know you're like mocking that notion that like, let's hang out with the fond uncle kind of, but it's. I kind of get it. I don't, I don't know. Right. I mean, like, there is, there's responsibility, sure, but isn't there somewhere between being a scold and being the fun uncle? Right. I don't think anybody was really selling, like, yes, be responsible. Don't go to a fucking, you know, Molly party and then go to your grandma's house afterwards. You know, like, do like, let's not. Maybe all breathe on each other in a gym during the height of the COVID wave. But also too, we should have outdoor sports and people should be able to go to the beach. And you shouldn't feel scolded if you're not wearing a mask, if you're in an open air set. I don't feel like that was happening. And I can understand, I think, the fun uncle appeal, can't you?
- [13:35]
Tim Miller
Of course you can understand the appeal. The appeal reached out to me, man. I was hearing stuff Republicans were saying, and I was like, I think this is the right idea. I was hearing that, you know, sexual assault is this really bad problem. And I was hearing people say, well, maybe women shouldn't dress like that. And I said, well, maybe they shouldn't. And, you know, that brings to mind Ayn Rand, who wrote a book where the protagonist commits sexual assault and the book just acts like that's totally fine and keeps going. So congratulations, Ayn Rand. Call me Atlas, because all I have.
- [14:08]
Cameron Caskey
To say is, but I'm anti sexual assault. I just want to say that I was pro, like, not, not wearing a mask post vaccine. And I was pro, like, being able to hang out with the boys and do a, do a blunt circle, like outside at the beach, rather than, you know, being forced to sit in, sit in our homes, you know, like. So I feel like there was a middle ground there between sexual assault and not being allowed to do anything.
- [14:39]
Tim Miller
No, for sure. I just don't want to ever talk about Ayn Rand without mentioning that she kind of acted like that was a little bit of a slay. But, you know, I think that this is just one of those many situations and this happens all the fucking time, where the Democratic Party ended up on the wrong side of an issue. Not the incorrect side of an issue, but the side of an issue where the people aren't going to want to hear what you have to say. Because very often, being part of a society where you have to go out of your way to make other people's lives better, people don't want that. People don't want to hear that you have to be inconvenienced in order to maybe stop somebody from dying while they're gasping for air. Who fucking cares, right? I care, but who fucking cares? You know, Republicans are so quick to say the easy thing. It's easy to say, oh, you know, if we all go out, maybe we'll get a little sick, but let's go out because it's fun. And I do, you know, I do See people who, years after the pandemic were scolding folks for not wearing masks while we were double, triple vaccinated. And I'm like, oh, fucking K, calm down. Like, this is not how you win people over. This is how you make people like you less. But also it just speaks to a broader thing where Republicans say the easy thing because liberal, Democratic, even progressive values are very easy to characterize as the more complicated way to do it. And people don't want to do the more complicated thing. Let's look at Bernie Sanders vs. Joe Biden at the presidential debate. Bernie Sanders was picking apart universal health care and explaining to you how you will be paying a little bit more in taxes, but ultimately saving money because of your health care costs. Joe Biden was saying, you remember when everybody was nice? What if we just got nice? And guess who won? Joe Biden. Because be nice works a lot more than. Here is a detailed financial plan for how I'm going to. So, you know, Republicans say, oh, shootings are a problem. People getting shot. Okay, bad guy with gun. Well, what if we. Good guy with gun. And people are like, oh my God, that makes so much sense. Now, mind you, obviously, so many gun control policies that are treated as so partisan are extremely popular. Like, yes, many, many, many Republicans support things like universal background checks and issues like that. But ultimately, the simple answer here, in my opinion, and obviously there's plenty of more complicated conversation to be had by people more qualified than me, but the simple answer is a lot of conservative policy is the easier thing to say and the easier thing to explain. And therefore people are going to be more responsive to that.
- [17:19]
Cameron Caskey
You know, I was. Did you ever get invited to the Dime Square thing? You know about the Dime Square vibe in New York? I know you don't party anymore, so maybe you don't know about Dime Square.
- [17:30]
Tim Miller
I don't party.
- [17:31]
Cameron Caskey
You should feel very lucky. I got invited to this thing. Or I was actually uninvited, but I was doing some research on it and try to figure out what the fuck I was being invited to because I'm not cool anymore either. I have a 7 year old, but there was like a group of like MAGA folks in New York, like hung out like in lower, Lower east side almost on the way to Brooklyn and Dimes Square. And they had parties during COVID and that was how they started. And like the pipeline in this instance was like direct. Like they were literally inviting people to parties because they were the only ones having parties indoors. And like they brought actual New York New Yorkers who were not political to them who then have since gone down the MAGA pipeline. And this group was now hosting the Cool party during CPAC this weekend here in D.C. and unfortunately, I didn't get to go because they didn't want any shitlib youtubers there. But I was intrigued by this just because. Because of that. Right? Like. Like there's some. Like, there is something to that. Like, Obama did bring in people who, like, were there for the cultural, you know, Sheen and I. And I think that I maybe missed how much, like, the Republicans benefited from that during COVID with younger people.
- [19:05]
Tim Miller
Yeah, and I missed it too, because I spent Covid in a very tight Covid pod with a mid-30s political strategist. So I. I wasn't exactly dime square partying. My friends and I were actually quite satisfied with zooming each other and playing Minecraft and playing among us and doing stuff like that.
- [19:24]
Cameron Caskey
That's interesting. You were satisfied zooming in Minecraft. I found the zoom hangs with my friends to be so unbearable to the point that I quit them.
- [19:31]
Tim Miller
We did something. I did this with my college friends. We did something where we did a reading of a Shakespeare play. I believe it was either Twelfth Night or Midsummer Night's Dream, where every scene, everybody took a shot. So about an act and a half into the reading of the Shakespeare play, we were just fucking wasted. And, like, nobody knew when there was their line. So we were just like, all right, you know what? Let's just talk shit about people that we know from school. But, you know, it's like, that was a way to have fun together that required just a little bit of thinking, you know, required a little bit of conceptualizing and trying to do something creative. But looky, looky, here we were able to have fun anyway, it was just not fun the easy way, and people want to do it the easy way. So, you know, maybe this party group was able to attract people during COVID and throw a quote unquote, cool party at cpac, which, you know, I'm sorry, even cool parties once thrown somewhere that the Nazis are hanging out are not cool. But, you know, even if the young people are hot, most of the hottest people I know are actually extremely uncool. I know some very cool, hot people. But it's actually crazy how, you know, I have friends who are like influencers with hundreds of thousands, if not millions of followers, gorgeous, always going to beautiful locations, posting pictures at the nicest getaways, retreats and parties. And you'd think that they have just this extremely bubbly effervescent social life. But I know them. I hang out with them. They're my friends. They're bigger fucking dorks than I am. And I read fantasy novels every day. Like, turns out social media has us, has us convinced that people are different from who they really are. Like, if I, if I posted my actual life on social media, people would think I wasn't just a little tiny bit broke. But anyway, I think that a lot of young people who end up doing conservative things ultimately wanted to be conservative. They wanted to do it, and they were just looking for an excuse. I know plenty of Jewish people who said, you know what? I was a liberal my whole life, but I'm voting for Trump because he's the one who's good on Israel. And I'm like, man, if you look at the Harris policy section on Israel in her campaign, it is almost indistinguishable from what Trump was campaigning on. They were both just like, we're going to do what Israel wants. We're going to support Israel. We'll give them what they want. Going to stop Hamas. But Trump was being more racist against the people that certain people wanted to be racist against. And therefore, because it was Israel, which is, you know, something that in our culture is widely regarded as this thing that can do no wrong and is just purely perfect and good, they said, okay, now I have a reason to go to the right, but I know plenty of very pro Israel people who are very Zionist, very pro Israel, who saw Harris and Trump and said, I'm supporting Kamala Harris because she's in line with my values and she's supportive of Israel. Anyway, the Jewish people I know who moved to Trump because of Israel, they wanted to move to Trump anyway. Their social circles were liberal. They wanted to fit in. They didn't want to support the abhorrent thing, and therefore they were liberal and supported liberal causes. But then when they got away to support Trump in a way that they can virtue signal as some sort of, oh, this is to protect my people, they went for it. Those were not people who were liberal until Trump was more racist against Arabs. They are people who wanted to be conservative the whole time, and then they got an excuse. So I don't know how many people with true liberal values got pushed to the right by the ability to party. I think there's just this idea, as you're be. As you're a young person growing up, that liberalism is the way to go because we all ought to come together and support each other and be part of something bigger than ourselves instead of isolating as much as possible. But then they were like, oh, the Republicans are letting me party. I'm going to be Republican now. And I just don't know if a party is going to make you say women should not control their own bodies. I don't know if a party is going to make you say minorities who have worked their entire life to get a position that there are now programs to support them getting over some white Nepo baby hire. Those people are just woke DEI and to quickly dismiss the accomplishments of people of color as wokeness without even looking into the tremendous things that they've done to get their positions. I don't know if parties during COVID really did that. I think it just gave people an.
- [23:58]
Cameron Caskey
Easy in Derek Thompson, smart boy, he's offering the premise that it is the alternative that actually the desire to go to Times Square parties did give people a rationale for opposing women's rights or not caring about it. And I don't know, maybe there's something to that. I'm going to weave. Trump does the weave, but we're going to weave here. We know how to do it. I'm going to tie the room together for you because here's the thing that I don't really know the answer to. That I think is a real pickle for those of us who don't want fascism and appealing to this group. If your points that isolation and social isolation make the kind of anti establishment Republican view, whatever you want to call that anti elite, anti institutional Republican view more appealing because you're isolated, because you don't have experience with other people, you don't have experience with women, have experience with people outside of your income bracket, I'll buy that. I'm with you on that. I think there's something to that. And then if you layer onto that the point that I was trying to make about how Republicans did make things more fun during COVID and in a lot of ways people are reflecting back on that and making them more appealing, which I think is true to an extent. And you end up with that, that Democrats right now don't want to talk to or appeal to or date or kiss anybody that likes Donald Trump at all, how do you crack the nut? Aren't we stuck? Aren't we stuck then in a situation where people are isolated and they're appealing towards and so they're going to be drawn more towards right wing stuff and nobody who has progressive views is going to like let them in or make it seem appealing for them to switch back.
- [25:47]
Tim Miller
I think it brings to mind how dangerous their attack on the public school system is. And, you know, while Trump is distracting everybody with fucking Greenland and Canada and the Gulf of America and just other stupid bullshit, we're watching the Department of Education get absolutely fucked, and they're going to rip it to shit and make it a disaster. But schools are where young people come together. Schools are where they meet each other. Schools are why a lot of the public school kids I know are cooler than the private school kids I know. And it's really important for us to have these social spaces. I read some article, and by that I mean I read the headline in the first two paragraphs about how young people are lacking social spaces where people go and cohabitate and hang out with each other. And that kind of just reminded me how my friends and I face that. Like, fortunately, as I've said so many times on this podcast, and I will continue to until the bulwark sends me an email to stop. Fortunately, I'm really cool, so I can figure out these things for myself, But a lot of my friends kind of want a place to go where they can, like, meet and hang out with other people, and we lack these things. And school, public school, is such an important part of that, and getting to know other people is such an important part of that. And, you know, I was a very lonely kid because I was never in tune with young people my age. I, in many ways, was much more mature than them, and in other ways was much less mature than them, but I was very rarely as mature. I was just all over the place. And, you know, this speaks to something I normally talk about in greater length, about how maturity is not a linear thing. That just is some basic crescendo. Maturity is a circle, and people grow out in all these different directions at different speeds in different ways. So I have friends in their late 30s who are extremely brilliant people where I make more mature decisions than they do in some situations, and then in many more situations, they're more mature than I am. But all this is to say I was a very lonely person because I was very different from my classmates. And I remember the feeling of feeling like there was no place for me in this world. And it is a very bad feeling, and it can really ruin your life. And it left me thinking sometimes what would happen if I just disappeared. I mean, I.
- [28:05]
Joshua Rush
And.
- [28:06]
Tim Miller
And. And this is coming from someone who has the most loving family in the entire world. My family treats me in such a great way. My parents went out of Their way to say to me, the best version of yourself that you could be is the one that's the most. Cameron, the best thing you could do is, is. Is embark on the pursuit to become true to yourself. So I had the best support I could have ever had from my family. I. I couldn't be more grateful. And yet I still found myself feeling so alone and so isolated. And this was before fucking social media. I mean, there was like, Instagram, but this was before TikTok was fucking everybody's brains up. And this is before COVID I felt alone and I wanted answers. And the feeling of feeling like there's no place for you in this world is something I would not wish upon my worst enemy. And it put me in such a dark place. And it's in those lows, it's in those depths that these ideologies that are thriving now can get you. And unfortunately, we have more kids in those depths than others. I mean, I don't want to brag, but I kind of beat Gen Z to isolation. Like I did it before, it was cool, but, you know, it was being someone like that. And it's the young people I know who had similar experiences to me that are the ones who are super red pilled right now, the ones who I had to unfollow on Instagram because as interesting as it was to see them get radicalized, I just couldn't put up with it anymore. Pepe the Frog started as this adorable little cartoon. I loved Pepe the Frog, he was a cutie patootie. And then he became a fucking Nazi and I just couldn't look at him on my Instagram story anymore. But it's the isolation that does this. And it's so crazy. Young people are not getting this important lesson that you can play a part in making somebody feel less lonely. Even the smallest things you can do. The littlest bits of attention you could pay to people, the recognition that you can offer them as another human being who deserves respect and dignity and deserves to be seen. You can do such small things that could very well ripple into saving somebody's life. And all of us can be less alone if we just make a little bit of effort to connect with other people. And a lot of the best friends that I've kept to this day were kids I met when I was popular in high school. And they were fucking nerds. And I just knew that I had the chance to pay them just a little bit of attention. And I saw them, and I saw myself in middle school feeling like I Had no place. Desperate for somebody to just come up to me and recognize that I was fucking alive. So that kind of part of me that saw myself in them made me go up to them and just pay them a little mind and say hello. And now they're some of my best friends to this day. And I forget that they were kind of a, you know, loneliness DEI hire in my life.
- [30:50]
Cameron Caskey
This is the real challenge, though. I mean, like, this is hard. This is a lot harder than the other stuff that we're talking about on the pod and because it's like, may, you know, finding a place. Like, it's one thing to, like, middle school sucks for everybody, right? Like, it's one thing in middle school to, like, find another middle school kid and go up to them and, you know, be a nice person and welcome them to sit at the table, right? Like that. That doesn't happen a lot, but, like, there's not a lot of preconceived baggage there, right? Like, a lot of times it's just surface level middle school shit, you know? Like, this is, like, way harder than that. This is like, how do we engage people that you think are kind of terrible and bring them out from isolation? That's a lot harder challenge, honestly.
- [31:38]
Tim Miller
Yeah. And I think it requires a belief that human beings are better than everyone's telling us that we are. And I think that this is a problem on the left and on the right. We are all characterizing the other as bad people. And if you can have some belief in the human spirit that humans have good in them. That's not to say, you know, let's let Steve Bannon do Sig Heils. That's not to say, you know, if Hitler had gone to art school, he would have been a super nice guy. Not that there's much of a difference between Steve Bannon and Hitler these days, but, you know, and Hitler might have.
- [32:15]
Cameron Caskey
Gone to art school, actually. He was kind of really into. Into the arts and Frou Frou stuff.
- [32:20]
Tim Miller
Well, listen, I today was talking about how the thing that stopped me from all these ideologies was drama. So in many ways, Hitler and I have the whole should have gone to art school thing in common. Hopefully not much more, though. And I think that people, young people, need to reinvest in each other. Young people need to be given the chance to believe in what we can do for each other and what we can do together. Because it is in meeting other people and understanding their relationship with this thing that we call being a human who's alive that we all become better. I know young people who were on the right again who got a little bit more hope in our ability to support each other, and in doing such, had a few more values that were a little bit better and more progressive because they met other people. And I think that we need to support this. This notion and this and this truth that if you support certain things that a party supports, that doesn't mean you need to believe all the shit that they say. And I know young people who identify as conservative that do believe women should be able to get abortions. I know young people who say that they're conservative, say that they're Republicans, who think that we need to have background checks on guns and who think that trans people should just be left alone. There are young people on the right who I'm friends with, whose, you know, I believe in supporting and uplifting Trans Joy and. And platforming their voices and celebrating them. But I know young people who just say, you know what? I don't know what the hell they're doing. And that means I'm not qualified to tell them how to do it. And it is in meeting other people that they were able to get these beliefs. So I really think it all ties back to. Into this question of how can we get young people to buy into each other again and support each other and build community? Because it is in building community that we can stop things like fascism, and it's in isolation that fascism thrives.
- [34:21]
Cameron Caskey
All right, we're going to be building community after this. Your buddy Josh Rush. There were some dating rumors about you. At one point, it sounded like he's on some Disney shows I'd never heard of, but they're apparently amazingly popular.
- [34:33]
Tim Miller
He was the first gay Disney character, which I don't think we're gonna get many more of those in the next coming years.
- [34:40]
Cameron Caskey
Yeah, that'll be, like, antiquated. You know, having a day being a gay Disney character. Like, he'll be. We can put him, like, in a hall of fame.
- [34:47]
Tim Miller
I guess it's just called Woke. He was the first woke Disney character. He was woke.
- [34:52]
Cameron Caskey
Yeah. No more Woke DEI Disney characters. No more. No lesbian kisses in Buzz Lightyear. No Josh Rush having little boyfriends in whatever show that was. Andy Mack. None of that.
- [35:04]
Tim Miller
It's so disappointing because it's just like, once the studios just started making too many things and letting corporate algorithms decide how they were going to tell their stories, that happened to line up with when we were trying to tell more diverse stories. So these diverse stories that deserve to be told Suffered from fucking nerd data. Nerd execs letting algorithms make their movies. And now everybody's saying that the movies got worse when the diversity came in. And they did get worse. But it's not because of the diversity. It's because they started letting math make their fucking movies.
- [35:36]
Cameron Caskey
We don't like math, but we do like traditional Disney movies. So we're going to go back to the old way where we do Disney movies, where it's just good old fashioned relationships, just very normal middle of the road. Like when people kiss passing out princesses. Like we want. We want princesses who have seven midget friends to be kissed by princes against their will. Like that's, that's the kind of traditional relationship we're looking for.
- [36:04]
Tim Miller
I think it's important for us to hold space for the fact that no executive would let Aladdin get made today. Nobody would make Aladdin today. Aladdin came out in the fucking 90s and is.
- [36:15]
Cameron Caskey
Jafar is gay.
- [36:17]
Tim Miller
Okay, well, that's its own thing. But studio execs would be like, oh, so you're trying to make Hamas the movie. Meanwhile, if you watch the Dune movies, the Dune movies are more fucking Israel Palestine than anything you see on the news. The Dune movies are just white Mohammed played by Bob Dylan. So anyway, we've got Josh Rush coming on. Josh Rush was a Disney star. Now he is a, an organizer who does a lot of great work in the Texas State House. And also people used to think that we had gay sex together, which we'll talk about this in the interview. Surprisingly, we never did.
- [36:53]
Cameron Caskey
I'm excited. He seems great. He's doing real work down in Austin. He's way nicer and more optimistic than us. So it'll bring a nice change of pace to this bleak podcast. And so everybody should stick around for that. Oh, we also have, in addition to Josh Rush, coming up, we have a new segment, Boomer Mailbag. So if you're a boomer out there and you want to send us some mail, send it to the bulwarkpodcastheboullerk.com and we also have Gen Z news, so stick around for all that. All right, so Cameron should be in charge of this segment, but he's decided to take the interview, take the conversation from the children's wing of the Spirit Airlines terminal at jfk. It was an interesting choice. It wasn't one that was vetted by his co host, but here we are.
- [37:40]
Joshua Rush
Okay, just because I'm podcasting doesn't mean.
- [37:44]
Tim Miller
I don't have a life.
- [37:45]
Joshua Rush
And I gotta catch a flight to Los Angeles, baby. City of Angels to do awesome stuff with the gang. But I wasn't going to abandon my duties to put more white man podcasting into this beautiful world. So I'm joining us today and I'm really happy to be here with such a great group of guys.
- [38:04]
Cameron Caskey
Okay, great. Well, I also have a life and managed to just kind of find a time to tape it from an actual microphone, but that's just one man's opinion. We'll figure it out as we go along. We've brought in your friend, Josh Rush. Josh I know nothing about, except for that he was Bunga in the Lion Guard. And I have a little bit of Lion King related content at the end of the discussion. That's probably not what we should lead with, but. What is up, man? How's it going?
- [38:31]
Sebastian
What's up? That's. That's probably the weirdest thing that you could possibly know me from. Really is something. Well, you know, I have a 7 year old. I did. Oh, well. Yeah, there you go. Well, then I'm sorry for all of the headaches that my very, very high pitched preteen voice was doing on that show.
- [38:48]
Cameron Caskey
Yeah, it seems like you have hit puberty since Bunga.
- [38:52]
Sebastian
I have hit puberty. I no longer can do the voice. It's way up there.
- [38:56]
Joshua Rush
I'm sorry, Josh, the Lion Guard or.
- [38:59]
Tim Miller
Whatever it is that he's referencing, that is not the weirdest thing he could remember you from.
- [39:03]
Joshua Rush
The weirdest thing he could remember you from is the Where's Waldo cartoon.
- [39:07]
Sebastian
That's the coolest thing that he could remember me from. And that's the most similar to how I sound now. And also it's the most similar character that I've ever played, animated character that I ever played that looked like I actually do in the real life.
- [39:22]
Joshua Rush
Okay, so let's feed the libs. You were a Disney star. You were one of the first openly LGBTQIA coded Disney characters. Not coded.
- [39:34]
Tim Miller
Oh, yeah.
- [39:34]
Joshua Rush
You guys, like, held hands over.
- [39:36]
Sebastian
We held hands and he said, I'm gay. Which, as we know, is the pinnacle. That is the most progressive thing that you're allowed.
- [39:45]
Cameron Caskey
Was this in a cartoon or was this like in your real life character? Were you a real boy?
- [39:50]
Sebastian
This was me in real life. Yeah, this was me in real life. I was on a show for four years called Andi Mack on Disney Channel. We were the number one children's show in America for quite some time. So, you know, thanks for remembering, Tim. And, yeah, played the first openly gay character on Disney Channel and then quit that pretty much immediately after.
- [40:10]
Cameron Caskey
That is so cute though. The young gays have it so much better now. You know, they got to have role models like you. I had Dawson's Creek. It wasn't as cool.
- [40:20]
Sebastian
So.
- [40:20]
Cameron Caskey
Okay, so you went from that. Now what are you up to now?
- [40:24]
Sebastian
I'm the communications director for the Texas House Democratic Caucus which is yeah, a little bit of a left turn but I've been doing professional political communications first alongside my acting work and then full time pretty much once I turned 18. And I've been doing it basically for the last seven years now. I've been a professional political operative. I've been taking an extended vacation from being famous and have instead been trying to make other people famous and trying to fix the world.
- [40:54]
Cameron Caskey
So what are your. Are you just like a median woke lib or kind of. What are your politics? Are you a secret Bernie?
- [41:03]
Sebastian
I was a Bernie Guy 2016, 2020. Convinced both of my sort of moderate Dem parents to vote for Bernie in 20, which I was very proud of, was a surrogate for him and, but have worked, have worked for basically everyone at this point. Have, have worked for Democrats, have worked for Republicans, have worked for independents. My, my political philosophy is dictated by the work that I'm able to do and like my like personal goal which is to be the absolute best Swiss army knife for beating fascism that I can possibly be. That's the political philosophy is that there are bad people, they are on the rise, they are becoming more powerful. We are watching it happen and the opposition to the bad people is not doing a very good job at fighting back. And so we need to be as creative and different as we could possibly be.
- [41:54]
Tim Miller
Wait, sorry.
- [41:55]
Joshua Rush
Swiss army knife for beating fascism? Is it the Swiss or the Swedish that didn't fight the Nazis?
- [42:01]
Sebastian
It's, it's the Swiss that didn't.
- [42:04]
Tim Miller
That's a fair point.
- [42:06]
Joshua Rush
Ideally not a Swiss army knife, more like perhaps a Soviet army knife or.
- [42:11]
Sebastian
Like even an American army knife.
- [42:14]
Cameron Caskey
An American club.
- [42:16]
Joshua Rush
You said it, not me.
- [42:17]
Cameron Caskey
An American gun.
- [42:18]
Sebastian
USA baby.
- [42:19]
Cameron Caskey
You better watch out if you start talking about bringing actual weapons to fights. Eagle Eyed Martin and the doj.
- [42:26]
Joshua Rush
Don't worry, don't worry.
- [42:26]
Cameron Caskey
Might write you a letter.
- [42:28]
Tim Miller
Don't worry.
- [42:28]
Joshua Rush
I'm just at the airport.
- [42:30]
Cameron Caskey
You're doing great, Cameron. You're just co hosting the show from the airport. Just doing an awesome job. I want you to kind of. So here's my observation that I want you two to vibe on is Cameron has become very jaded you know, he was, he was a young activist, like a young fledgling activist, you know, but when he couldn't shave and, you know, was earnest and like, got people to go to the mall and then became very jaded, and you seem to, like, still, you know, have that dog inside you for activism. So I would like for you guys to kind of explain your perspective on, on the value and what you're getting out of it.
- [43:10]
Sebastian
Cam and I have known each other for kind of a long time now, right? It's been, it's probably been. Been upwards of. Yeah, I was going to say five, six, seven. Kim saying seven years, but like, yeah, Cam and I often talk about how we sort of switched positions. Cam was sort of starting to leave his advocacy universe that he had been in and was heading towards the performing arts. And I was walking away from that and headed towards it. I, you know, like, I think there's a lot of reasons to get jaded. There's a lot of reasons to feel jaded at the same time. Like, the, the people that we serve cannot afford for us to be bored and half assing our work. The people who need an opposition to fascism. It has never been more urgent than it is right now. And I, you should know, like, you're hearing me at, like, my least jaded that I've been in years. Cam can probably tell you this pretty well now. This is right now, February 25th. That's right, February 2025. I am probably the least jaded that I felt in years. Not. Not that I don't feel like we have a very big fight ahead of us. And not that I don't feel demoralized by it, but more so in the sense that I do not feel like I can afford to be doing anything right now other than working and trying. There's like, I can't. What else. What the fuck are we supposed to do if we are not trying to beat them right now? Aren't you guys doing a white man podcast right now?
- [44:41]
Cameron Caskey
Hang out. We are doing a white man podcast, but I don't. I had to. It's kind of like my job and so I had to keep doing it. But I would, I would get like, wanting to check out right now and not being optimist, being nihilistic. I don't know. I've heard from a lot of people that are just feeling more nihilistic now than ever. Like, what, what is. What is making you go the other way, do you think?
- [45:05]
Sebastian
I mean, it's. None of that's not. None of it's. Not to say that I don't feel nihilistic right now. None of it's not to say that I don't feel like we might be pretty cooked, you know, but, you know, right? But at the same time it's. I think we're cooked.
- [45:18]
Cameron Caskey
I think we're fucking cooked.
- [45:20]
Sebastian
If I sit there, if I sit here every day I go to my office at the Texas State capitol in the Texas legislature, right? That's where I work right now. And I'm like, well, we're fucked. Like, I'm not going to do anything. I'm going to sit here all day and then I'm going to leave at 5 and nobody's going to be any better for it. But I show up every day, I make these people as uncomfortable as they possibly can be. I make it as hard as possible for them to exercise their agenda. I make it as loud as I make it as I make it possible for Democrats to be as loud as possible in opposing their agenda. I am doing something. I am doing the absolute most that I can with these two hands that God gave me. Like I, and I, and I do feel like it's like if I'm in a position of power, and I'm not saying that like everybody should be feeling like they have to do something right now, but like I'm in a position where I have this ability and I'm here and I have been put in this position with the tools and the know how to do what I need to do. Like, let's, let's go. Like we should be making it as uncomfortable as we possibly can for them. It doesn't matter if we're hooked. If I'm, if I'm going down, I'm going down swinging.
- [46:33]
Cameron Caskey
Cam, does this make you feel bad about yourself?
- [46:35]
Sebastian
Not like I'm like noble or something. I don't want to give that impression too.
- [46:39]
Joshua Rush
No, no, totally. You're not, you're just not some lazy prick like Cameron Marley Caskey. No, it's, it's really great to hear that kind of stuff. Especially someone in a state like Texas that I think has a lot more blue voters on the ground than people want to say it does. But I, I guess my question for you, first of all, that monologue you just went on, the Bulwark audience is going to like you so much more than they liked the, the non voting and anarcho communist that we had on last week, who is a great guy who I love and respect, but definitely that was awesome. Definitely less bulwark coded than you. So just, just already go check the comments after this. You're.
- [47:20]
Tim Miller
They're going to love you. But, you know, so you and I.
- [47:23]
Joshua Rush
Both run in very progressive circles saying and doing progressive things with progressive people. And I think you kind of share this perspective that I do. I mean, I personally can't say I've worked with too many Republicans, but this idea that you do have to accept a certain amount of compromise and if you want to make the most progressive things happen, that means you're going to be working with people who don't feel that way and you're going to be trying to do that from the inside. And, you know, to advocate for the right stuff, you have to meet people where they're at. So just what's your experience having your own values and working with people who might very well feel the opposite on some key issues?
- [48:08]
Sebastian
Among the many reasons that I really love working in Texas, which is like, when we're, when we're doing stuff, we're doing stuff because we can find like a level of unity around it. You know, in, inside of the Democratic Party, we are beefing with each other about so many different things here in Texas. We can kind of all come together and we can be like, well, you know, like, we think trans people should, should be protected. We think that they should have some level of protections. Therefore, we're against what a lot of the Republican Party does in that context. We're against school vouchers, right? In, in basically every format. This is the really easy one because Republicans are trying to pass a school voucher scheme in Texas. That's what the largest they just introduced yesterday. The largest school voucher plan ever introduced into the Texas House got int produced yesterday. It's very easy for us as Democrats to get together and say, well, we think that that sucks. We think that they shouldn't be doing that. So like, I love, I think being in opposition is fantastic because it gives you this, this opening to say, like, well, like we may not agree on all of our preferred implementations on school finance. Right. I worked in California for some time. That's, you know, you get really into the policy weeds when you're arguing and debating among progressives and among the left here in Texas. I'm getting along with the furthest left members of the Democratic caucus and the furthest right members of the Democratic caucus. We've got a whole big tent because what they are doing on the other side is so insane and so bad that everybody can get, get in the same damn boat together and say, like, all right, well, we think this is bad. I love being in opposition and I love, I love fighting in like red and purple states where we actually have to fight against them.
- [49:47]
Cameron Caskey
I have a question for you about and for both of you about how you can fight in red and purple states without being so annoying. And I have an example for you I'd like to Give from just 2 hours ago, I was walking to lunch and this person, God love them, they don't know that I have a anti Donald Trump podcast. All right, they must not be a listener. That's fine. So they don't know that I'm already out there in the battle space. And I was going to humble brag. I was going to meet a senator for lunch and we were going to talk about how to beat Donald Trump's ass. They didn't know that that's where I was on my way to. Then I was late. But that said, I walked by and she goes, do you have a moment for trans rights? I replied, sorry, not right now. Her reply, I forgive you. I wanted to turn around and be like, fuck the trans people. Actually I was like, is there somebody else? Is there an anti trans person whose thing that I consider sign right now? And I do think that in your guys world, maybe not you too, but some folks are a little bit, like, maybe are being a little bit counterproductive in their activism. So I'm wondering how you think about that and not creating backlash by being annoying Gen Z people chastising other Texans.
- [51:04]
Sebastian
Tim, my question to you would be, did that interaction that you had with a progressive activist make you decide to vote Republican?
- [51:13]
Cameron Caskey
I mean, if I was not, if I was a worse person, maybe. Okay, that's all I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. It was radical. It was slightly radicalizing against the trans rights movement. I would say it's just slightly.
- [51:25]
Sebastian
So you got annoyed and your knee jerk reaction is just to fully vote against him in 2026. You are probably in the minority of Americans. I think that we should be annoying as fuck all the time. Really I do. Yeah. Mostly towards Republicans. But like, you know, I think that there's a lot of good reason to be annoying towards your Democratic representatives right now and make sure that they are being loud and outspoken against, you know, Donald Trump and his fascistic agenda. You know, I got a buddy of mine, my anarcho communist friend who keeps talking about what South Korean parliament members did.
- [52:04]
Cameron Caskey
Oh yeah.
- [52:05]
Sebastian
Scaling the walls of their parliament building when they thought that their, when their democracy was at risk. And like, this is what is happening right now is a four alarm fire to me. Like, I want our Democratic politicians scaling the walls at the Department of Education to figure out what's going on inside of there.
- [52:22]
Cameron Caskey
Same.
- [52:23]
Sebastian
I want us in there when they want us out. Right. Like they are. They are actively attacking our institutions. But like, beyond that, not only they're attacking our institutions, they're attacking our children, our futures, our families, our food system and our flights. I want our Democratic politicians to be showing up in every single possible way that they can. Sending letters is great, showing up at the doors is great. But like, I want to see that our Democratic politicians see this as a 4 or 5, 10 alarm fire in the same way that I do.
- [52:56]
Cameron Caskey
I'm with you on that. I want fighting. I'm for fighting. But sometimes the annoying part of the fighting can have. Can have some backlash. Cameron, you did some activism with some annoying people, I think. What do you think about my theory?
- [53:13]
Joshua Rush
I mean, I just think it's a matter of balancing. I think that first of all, I don't know any annoying person I've ever done activism with. As a matter of fact, everybody I've done activism with has been perfect with no flaws. So I don't know what you're talking about, but I would say that, right.
- [53:29]
Cameron Caskey
Every single one. We can't even think of a single person that was a little annoying that you did activism with.
- [53:34]
Joshua Rush
Couldn't even begin to imagine for at least the next four episodes. But I think that it's sort of a choose your battles and figure out how hard you want to fight them situation. Because I don't think we should be managing a system right now where Democrats feel comfortable fighting this rise in authoritarianism and fascism that's being led by a foreign billionaire who's throwing the R word around on Twitter. I don't think we should meet that with press conferences saying, hey, by the way, did you see that the price of eggs are up? Because it was never really about the price of eggs. And, you know, could have factored in here or there. But right now what we're seeing is everything that leads up to the type of authoritarianism that gets a lot of people killed. And I said this last week, you know, when people used to throw around the Trump as a Nazi Hitler stuff. I would say, cool your jets, but they're telling us who they are. It's not just Elon doing two sick.
- [54:40]
Tim Miller
Highs in a row.
- [54:41]
Joshua Rush
Now it's Steve Bannon. Now Steve Bannon.
- [54:43]
Cameron Caskey
Roman salute.
- [54:45]
Tim Miller
Yeah, yeah.
- [54:46]
Joshua Rush
Now Steve Bannon is going up and saying, at CPAC, we want Trump 2028. And he's just saying it. And I think that the idea that the Democratic Party is going to meet this with talking about the economy and is going to meet this with press conferences about how, you know, ooh, did you notice that gas costs a little bit more now? I don't think that works. And I think people do need to be a little uncomfortable, because I think the more comfortable you are as these fascist powers rise, the more dangerous they are going to get. And I think that they want us to feel this sort of apathy and.
- [55:25]
Tim Miller
Say, you know what, maybe we ought to chill out. But also, I think that, of course.
- [55:29]
Joshua Rush
You know, certain types, certain forms of protest are, I don't know if I want to say, counterproductive, but are just not really going to do anything, because I do. I mean, I've been present enough in Democratic political and organizing circles to know that a lot of these politicians laugh about these types of protesters in private and, you know, think of them as just these morons. So I do think there should be a certain amount of attention put into making sure everybody knows that we are far past the point of devastating damage. And we are already at a point where it's going to take a lot of time and effort, even in the best case scenario, to undo the damage that has been done to the government and the services that it provides to make Americans lives and futures better.
- [56:21]
Tim Miller
So I think it's a matter of.
- [56:23]
Joshua Rush
Figuring out and balancing your approach.
- [56:25]
Tim Miller
And I wish I had a more.
- [56:27]
Joshua Rush
Obvious answer, but I guess the direction in which I lean is we need to make sure that politicians in the Democratic Party right now and politicians in the Republican Party who would dare to stand up against the regime are aware that this is the 11th hour. The doomsday clock is seconds away, and there's no shrugging that off.
- [56:48]
Cameron Caskey
Well, so here's my question for you then, Josh. Like, I love your energy, and like Cameron said, our people are going to love your energy. And that's where I'm at, too. But, like, is it not, like, among your peers, is there not, like, a greater apathy? I don't know. I was texting with Cam about this yesterday or two days ago, and I was like, we have a guy that, like, totally does not, you know, that believes climate change is a hoax, is the president now, and that is trying to dismantle all of the progress anybody made on any climate action. I know you've done climate activism in the past, and everybody Told me that Gen Z is like, that's their top issue. Super, super into climate. And, like, this is all happening. And it's kind of like, I don't know, like, it seems to me like there's a big meh out there among younger folks who. You're not seeing a March for Our Lives develop right now, but maybe I'm just missing it. I don't know. What do you see among your peers as far as excitement for action right now?
- [57:50]
Sebastian
No, I see widespread political apathy in all directions. I'm an outlier. Maybe I should have led with that. I know certainly among people my age, Cam's age, what I am hearing is overwhelming nihilism. And what I'm trying to respond to that every time with is like, okay, it's fine to feel bad. It's fine to feel nihilistic. It's fine to feel terrible. And at the same time, at some point, we have to figure something out. Organized.
- [58:20]
Cameron Caskey
Do you think that's, like, doom behind it? Like, doomerism, nihilism? Or just like, I can't make any difference? Or what do you think is probably.
- [58:28]
Sebastian
Like, an even split? I hear a lot of like, well, we're fucked anyway. Like, there is a very pervasive group which will say, like, well, we're fucked anyway, so we don't have to do anything. There is another, like, very pervasive group of, like, America has always been fucked, so we don't have to do anything. I find myself sort of in the middle here of like, okay, well, if we do nothing, then we've done nothing. And if we try and do something, then we can do something. Maybe. Or maybe I, like, maybe I fail and end up in the camps, but, like, then at least I tried. Then at least I can, like, go home. I go home at night with a pretty clean conscience, and I feel like I've actually done something. I don't know if I could go home in my position every day and be like, all right, well, I did nothing. I'm gonna, like, go home and watch ESPN and go to bed.
- [59:16]
Joshua Rush
I think that one of the things I try to say to my peers and keep in mind I do significantly less than Josh does. I'm significantly more apathetic than Josh is. And I'm still way more empathetic than most people my age. Like, Josh makes me look like I do nothing. And I still care way more and do way more than people our age. So that's how bad it is. But, you know, I say to people about the doomerism the same thing I say about female electability. It's like when people say we'll never elect a woman as president, I'm like, yeah, we won't. If you say we won't, like it's, it's a self fulfilling prophecy. Doomerism is a self fulfilling prophecy. If you say we're fucked, we're definitely going to be fucked. And if we're definitely going to be fucked, you have to say, well, what can we do to try and prevent that fuckery the most? And it's, and it's really a shame to see how apathetic everybody is. But also how could you blame them? The bad guys have won. And the bad guys are not only winning, they're twisting the knife.
- [60:17]
Sebastian
The bad guys are winning. You know the thing that I also want to say is like we had to get through Hoover to get to fdr. Like there is absolutely a little, little deep cut, but like there is absolutely nothing to suggest that we are. This is where I was.
- [60:32]
Cameron Caskey
I was about to feel like old man had to give a history lesson here. When you're like. And half of my friends like America was always fucked. I was like, what? I was like, go and watch a movie about 1962. Like, things have gotten a lot better.
- [60:44]
Sebastian
I agree with you.
- [60:46]
Joshua Rush
Just for our Gen Z listeners who might have some questions right now, Hoover and FDR were presidents in America.
- [60:54]
Cameron Caskey
Yeah, great, thanks, Cameron.
- [60:55]
Sebastian
They were presidents in America. They were presidents back to back. Hoover was bad and FDR was good. That's.
- [61:02]
Cameron Caskey
He did do the third and fourth terms, which is a little. So, so for us, if we're going to be a pro democracy movement, but, but we don't, we don't need to, you know, we maybe don't need to.
- [61:11]
Sebastian
There wasn't an amendment prohibiting that at the time. So like now there is feel a little weirder about like us doing that, but like whatever.
- [61:19]
Cameron Caskey
In defense of norms though, I don't know, you know that, you know that Trump is going to start dropping FDR soon once he realizes that he did it. Trump probably doesn't know yet that he had the three or four. But you know that FDR is coming. He's going to be like, as soon.
- [61:30]
Sebastian
As he figures that out. Just like as soon as he figured out what an asylum actually is. Like an asylum claim versus an insane asylum. He switched up his tune on that one.
- [61:38]
Cameron Caskey
Yeah, definitely. All right, what, you know, I guess my other question for you is like being there in Texas is just, you know, like as far as, you know, The Colin Allred, such a good dude, you know, and he ran. He was like a fucking football player. You know, he did not say that he wanted to fund transgender migrant prisoners, sexual sex changes. And they still spent like $100 million in ads against him on that topic. He's a dad, he's a guy. He's more of a man than like makeup wearing Donald Trump. Like, and yet still there, there was bleed, you know, amongst. Among everybody but men in particular with him running against fucking Ted Cruz. And so I'm just kind of wondering what you're feeling there on the ground as far as like, you know, the, the gender gap side of us.
- [62:35]
Sebastian
I mean, I won't, I won't speak to the Allred thing specifically just because I wasn't here for that. I was working a different race in North Carolina at the time with, with other insane candidates that I certainly can talk about.
- [62:48]
Cameron Caskey
But yeah, I just mean in the context, if you're going there now, you're running and people got to be like, God, I mean, Allred, you know, if you're looking for a model on what you're supposed to do to do better, like you would think it would be it.
- [62:58]
Sebastian
Yeah, yeah. Colin Allred for sure has got like the bio that you create in the lab to like run as a Democratic politician. The, the gender gap exists. It's real. There is a like, you know, a counterculture, almost movement of, you know, insurgent, toxic masculinity. I think that certainly I wouldn't necessarily see it as like a countercultural movement, but I know that like the people who live like that. I've been going to comedy shows right, since I moved to Austin. You know, I'm, you know, this is, this is sort of sorry.
- [63:33]
Cameron Caskey
Kyle Elon told us that comedy was illegal and we have to make it legal again. Are you okay?
- [63:37]
Sebastian
No comedy. Comedy's legal in Austin as long as you drive a cybertruck to and from the, the place that you're doing it at.
- [63:46]
Cameron Caskey
And can they make at the shows? Can, like, they make fun here in Austin?
- [63:51]
Sebastian
You really can. It's here in Austin. Something I've learned is that this city is, has got just an overwhelming population of dudes in blue button down shirts who do tech sales and maybe, yeah, keep it weird. For sure. Those dudes are weird, but man, it's, you know, you could, you could just say the R word a couple times on a stage in a comedy show and you can actually have a whole group like that laughing. So like there's, there's this, like, there's this idea that it's like young men, it's Gen Z men, like I millennials. You all need to check your men too. Like, there's, there's, there's some weird. There's some weird ones all around. Like, but there's also not a ton of. I don't know it exists. It's real. I don't know if I've got a good example.
- [64:38]
Cameron Caskey
So work with me here, though. Work with me. Maybe this is the answer. So you're there, you're in Austin, you're in Texas, you're going to the comedy shows, you're hanging out with Gen Z dudes. Maybe you just need like a pro, trans, anti school vouchers progressive guy that also says, how about that? Like, maybe that's it. Maybe that's it.
- [65:02]
Sebastian
I mean, you know, to the, to the, the gist of what you're going for, we just got to be normal. We, we can't, you know, we can't continue to define ourselves by the identity politics that we use. I also, I don't think that it's like a terrible idea for Democrats to continue to, like, have identity politics. I don't think it's a bad idea that we, like, you know, lift up minority communities within our midst. I also don't think that it needs to be at the center of our message to undecided voters. I think that our message to undecided voters should be about what we're going to do for you. And that message should be resonant with a large group of communities because the people who are making that message go out are from a large group of communities that, like, to me, that is the example. We just have to be normal about how we talk about shit. We cannot continue to be tremendously afraid of each other within our own party.
- [65:55]
Joshua Rush
And can I just say, Tim, you will never catch me saying is a word that is not only completely unacceptable, it should not be normalized. And we need to decenter the use of ableist language. Like. So for you to even say in front of this hot mic and normalize the use of is despicable. And you ought to check yourself.
- [66:19]
Sebastian
Do you have anything else you'd like to add, Cam?
- [66:21]
Cameron Caskey
I apologize. I want to get to. I need to talk about Scar being gay. And we gotta get to Gen Z News. But so while taking a break, Cameron, do you have any other topics for Josh before we talk about Scar being gay and Gen Z News?
- [66:32]
Joshua Rush
Yes, real quick. So Josh Rush, Disney Channel superstar, icon, twink, Everything that's good. That's what they call me now that you and I are on our Twink deathbeds.
- [66:45]
Cameron Caskey
Josh is not. Josh is an otter now, officially. Just so you know. I don't know.
- [66:49]
Joshua Rush
Okay.
- [66:49]
Tim Miller
Yeah.
- [66:50]
Joshua Rush
For those of you who don't know, Twink is an otter who has some. Some hair going for him.
- [66:55]
Sebastian
I am looking Twink who has some hair going for him.
- [66:58]
Cameron Caskey
Correct.
- [66:59]
Joshua Rush
He correct that not what I said.
- [67:00]
Cameron Caskey
No, no, you're right.
- [67:01]
Joshua Rush
Okay, my bad.
- [67:03]
Tim Miller
So, speaking of Otter, Space Otter 42.
- [67:06]
Joshua Rush
On Tumblr posted a selfie of you and I at this very Airport from 2018 with the caption, joshua Rush and Cameron Caskey, the subject of Josh's planned future first date with a guy. Josh will happen if he gets a thousand tweet replies with proof that the person has registered to vote. Cameron is openly gay and turns 19 on November 11th. This picture was posted on Josh's Twitter three days after Josh came out as bi. So these rumors from the Internet in 2018 that you and open homosexual Cameron Caskey were dating each other, I'm just so jealous.
- [67:44]
Cameron Caskey
Like, what is that? Like, people tweeting that you might like about your love life. Like, that's fucking awesome. Like, did you feel that? Did you appreciate how awesome that is? Or, like, did it. Were you annoyed by it because it's awesome? Are you annoyed?
- [67:59]
Sebastian
I think I was annoyed. I think that I was annoyed at the time.
- [68:02]
Cameron Caskey
People don't know. You don't know how good you got it, man. You don't know how good you got. It would have been great.
- [68:07]
Sebastian
How do you know the good day. Good old days are over Till they're gone.
- [68:10]
Cameron Caskey
Yeah. What about you, Cameron? Did you enjoy it or the attention or. No, you.
- [68:16]
Joshua Rush
I enjoyed that. I thought it was funny. I don't know how much I enjoyed the invasion of privacy, but I also didn't really care because most of it was funny enough that I found it amusing. But, you know, it was a nice change of pace because at that point in 2018, I had gotten so many tweets suggesting that my family was human traffickers and that I was not present at these school shootings that I hired from. That part is not awesome that I was a. That I was a paid crisis actor. So when the tweets were like, Cameron is bisexual. Disney stars, mans.
- [68:57]
Tim Miller
That was.
- [68:58]
Joshua Rush
That was.
- [68:58]
Tim Miller
That was a bit refreshing because I.
- [68:59]
Joshua Rush
Was like, you know what? I can handle this one. You know, it was interesting. We were sort of. The way we were posting together, it was sort of like one could Call it queer baiting, but since we're both queer, I don't know if it was queer baiting. I think it was more queer.
- [69:14]
Sebastian
We were hanging out a lot that year. That was. Yeah, we were around all the time.
- [69:19]
Tim Miller
I can.
- [69:20]
Joshua Rush
I'm surprised nothing came up to say.
- [69:22]
Sebastian
Basically the exact same. I was just about to say that.
- [69:27]
Joshua Rush
You know, life is long. Maybe one day.
- [69:29]
Cameron Caskey
Now I'm getting uncomfortable. Okay, I have a Lion Guard question. It is related, actually.
- [69:35]
Sebastian
Oh, God.
- [69:35]
Cameron Caskey
So, Scar, have you seen Mufasa? Have either of you seen Mufasa? You don't have children, so you haven't seen Mufasa.
- [69:42]
Sebastian
I don't consume media.
- [69:43]
Cameron Caskey
Okay, this is gonna be distressing. Scar was obviously gay, all right? His whole affect was gay. His PA being limp was gay. He was alone in the cave. He needed a male lover. This was obvious from the first Lion King movie. Clearly gay. And then Mufasa just happened, and they redid his origin story as if he became bad because he's ma. That Mufasa took Sarabi, or whatever her name is, from him, and that fucking ruined my childhood. And as somebody who's part of the greater Lion King universe, Josh, I'm just hoping that you could tell me who I could send a letter to about that.
- [70:25]
Sebastian
Yeah, Let me just make sure I'm correct about this, but it's 500 Buena Vista Boulevard, Burbank, California.
- [70:38]
Cameron Caskey
Okay. Do you have somebody that I could put attention.
- [70:41]
Sebastian
I actually still remembered that.
- [70:43]
Cameron Caskey
Attention to who?
- [70:45]
Sebastian
I'm not sure, but, you know, that's the actual corporate headquarters for the Walt Disney Company and Disney Channel, so.
- [70:53]
Cameron Caskey
Okay, thank you. That's not that helpful. I'm just. I'm devastated, and I was. When Cameron told me you were gonna be on, I was excited that I finally had an in on this, and you've done nothing for me, but sadly.
- [71:02]
Sebastian
I've left that behind for Democratic politics.
- [71:05]
Cameron Caskey
And I appreciate.
- [71:06]
Sebastian
I appreciate your energy.
- [71:07]
Cameron Caskey
That's not true. I really appreciate your energy. It's just in this one specific complaint. You couldn't help me. Okay. All right, before we get to the Gen Z News, I have another new segment for this show. It is called Boomer Mailbag. If you are a Boomer listener and you are a grandpa or grandma, and you're listening because you want to hear what your grandkid's life is like, we appreciate you. Thank you for listening to FYpod, the first mailbag item. And you can email us bulwarkpodcasthelwerk.com if you are a Boomer and Have a future comment or question? The first is from. I guess I'll redact his name, but a frequent emailer, he writes this. Notre Dame professor of political Science Patrick Deneen said, my students are know nothings. Their brains are largely empty, devoid of any substantial knowledge. That's how I felt listening to Klasky and Geik. Don't get me wrong, it was fascinating to learn that people like them are influencing hordes of young people. Imagine how much bullshit the guys like Geik and Klasky are spewing to their young listeners. Good luck, America. Do you have any response to that mail, Cameron?
- [72:18]
Joshua Rush
No, I think he covered everything.
- [72:20]
Cameron Caskey
Josh, do you have any thoughts for the Mailbag segment?
- [72:23]
Sebastian
No. That's definitive. 100% agree. Cannot believe you are spewing such bullshit to our younger generation. Cam.
- [72:30]
Joshua Rush
I. Let me say I am just honored that he thinks that I inspire hordes of young people. So thank you to Mr. Klasky Guy and I hope he writes back next week with some more feedback.
- [72:44]
Cameron Caskey
He actually has written three emails and so if no other boomers write an email, I have another one for him for next week's Mailbag. So appreciate you, bw. All right, next up, Gen Z news and producer Sebastian.
- [72:59]
Ernest Wessling
So this is from Fortune again like last week, title, Gen Z is doom. Spending, not saving. Survey fines. And that's bad news for their financial well being. A recent survey bears out the Trend, finding that 47% of Gen Z respondents did not have an Emergency Fund and 27% of Gen Z carry more debt than they do savings.
- [73:21]
Cameron Caskey
Explain to me how you guys can not drink, not have sex and not have savings. What are you spending your money on?
- [73:27]
Sebastian
Eggs?
- [73:29]
Tim Miller
Yeah, Rent.
- [73:31]
Joshua Rush
I saw this.
- [73:32]
Tim Miller
There's this post that I've seen a.
- [73:33]
Joshua Rush
Hundred different places which is, you know.
- [73:35]
Tim Miller
An old person saying anytime a kid.
- [73:37]
Joshua Rush
Says okay boomer to me, I'm gonna say okay renter. But you know, the cost, the cost of living has gone up so much, I can't say I'm a big doom spender. I definitely have a good, good deal of friends who spend money on some things that leave me asking why exactly. But I think that it is all part of the larger doom narrative. The same doomerism that affects our politics and the way that we view ourselves and our futures. And it's this collective feeling that we are at the end. So if it's the end of the world as we know it, and I don't feel fine, sorry, Michael Stipe, I'm going to spend my money. And again, I can't relate. I can't say I have much money, but I don't spend it that much. That's why I dropped out of Colombia.
- [74:22]
Ernest Wessling
Is that what is doom spending? I saw this in the article, and they didn't give a definition. It's just the world is ending, and now we're going to go take a cruise because of it.
- [74:32]
Joshua Rush
The world is ending, so we're spending.
- [74:35]
Sebastian
So who cares about saving money? Who cares about me carrying over this credit card debt to next month Even though my APR is 45%?
- [74:43]
Joshua Rush
What am I going to do? Buy a house? I'm not getting my $20,000 for Kamala Harris.
- [74:49]
Cameron Caskey
You know, I think this is just kind of Boomer shit, to be honest. We got this too, us millennials. There was a whole meme about this, about how we were wasting all our money on avocado toast. We don't cook anymore.
- [75:03]
Sebastian
And you were. And you don't. Right.
- [75:05]
Cameron Caskey
I was spending my money on avocado toast and I didn't cook. That is correct.
- [75:09]
Sebastian
And yet in 2014, we all were.
- [75:12]
Cameron Caskey
Yeah. And here we are. I have savings now, thanks to you, our bulwark subscribers. Okay, next question. Sebastian.
- [75:19]
Ernest Wessling
All right, so new poll survey from Gallup says that more than 15 Gen Z adults, those born between 1997 and 2006, for those who aren't aware, identify as LGBTQ. 31% of Gen Z women versus 12% of Gen Z men. So gay agenda thriving despite Josh, I believe, drinking from a Chick Fil a cup right now.
- [75:45]
Cameron Caskey
I have some problems with this. I think you guys are to blame for the backlash against the LGBT community. That is too many. What was the percent again of just.
- [75:56]
Ernest Wessling
Gen Z total 31. 1 in 5 Gen Z adults.
- [76:00]
Cameron Caskey
1 in 5.
- [76:01]
Ernest Wessling
31 Gen Z women versus 12% of Gen Z men. So it's not the youngest young white dudes of this podcast that are ruining it. It's the woke lesbian women that are ruining it.
- [76:13]
Cameron Caskey
Yeah. One of you guys has to go back straight, actually.
- [76:15]
Sebastian
Well.
- [76:16]
Cameron Caskey
Well, let's.
- [76:18]
Joshua Rush
I have been. There's a very easy explanation for why the number is so much higher with women. And I have been with men and women, so I can confirm this. Women are better. So if I was a woman and I tried, you know, the other side of it all, I don't understand why I would ever go back. Whereas with men, you know, to. To be with other men is to realize that those things say about.
- [76:40]
Cameron Caskey
No, that's a woke answer. That's fucking wrong. That's not what's happening.
- [76:43]
Sebastian
It's 100% true.
- [76:45]
Cameron Caskey
That is not what women are. Are not really. They're kissing other women and they're being like, okay, count me. I count because, like, I did a make out one time, then they're.
- [76:56]
Tim Miller
I disagree.
- [76:56]
Joshua Rush
I think. I think that I did a.
- [76:58]
Cameron Caskey
You think 31% of women have done cunnilingus? You think 31% of Gen Z women have done cunnilingus? I refuse to fucking believe that.
- [77:07]
Joshua Rush
Absolutely.
- [77:08]
Cameron Caskey
Yes.
- [77:09]
Sebastian
Yes.
- [77:10]
Joshua Rush
I don't think 31% of Gen Z anyone has actually done that.
- [77:14]
Tim Miller
From what I've heard. From what I've heard around the block.
- [77:18]
Joshua Rush
No, I actually think I know a good deal of Gen Z women who identify as straight. Actually, I know a great deal of Gen Z women who identify as straight that have had their kissy sessions with the other girlies. So I think that these numbers on both ends are actually criminally underreported, as they always have been. Everyone's always been gay. It's just a matter of who's gonna say it and if you don't believe me. Look at Abraham Lincoln. Look at the Greeks.
- [77:43]
Tim Miller
Everyone's been gay the whole time.
- [77:45]
Sebastian
Josh, I did a movie about Abraham Lincoln once and I could tell you for sure you're 100% right.
- [77:53]
Cameron Caskey
Cam, what do you think about the girls? You think one in three women have look kind of gone down under?
- [78:00]
Sebastian
I say this as a bisexual person. I think we have a crisis of bisexuality in this country. I just think. I think we need more people to pick a side and we would get these numbers to somewhere stable.
- [78:13]
Cameron Caskey
I'm desperate for Karen to book a non bisexual. I'm not sure that it's gonna happen. He sent me a list of 13 potential guests and there were 12 bisexual and a trans person. I think we're on the list. I don't. I don't understand.
- [78:27]
Ernest Wessling
An interview that's now going to be very different now that Tim has had that encounter on the street.
- [78:32]
Tim Miller
Here's what I'll say.
- [78:34]
Joshua Rush
I don't think we need less bisexuals. I think we need bisexuals to stop acting like this, I think.
- [78:41]
Sebastian
Like what?
- [78:42]
Joshua Rush
Bisexuals. If bisexuals just started getting our shit together, I wouldn't mind it as much. It's not the bisexuality that's the problem. It's the vibes and the aesthetic and the attitude.
- [78:51]
Cameron Caskey
Okay, I have a serious follow up. Are you. Are we sure that there's not that part? I'm back to the backlash again, and I'm not. It's not just Because I'm better that that young lady told me she forgives me when I didn't do anything that merited forgiveness on the street today. But, like, I don't know, is this a little bit of part of the backlash that we saw? Is this why the. The trans stuff is working better? Like, just because, like, there are a lot of parents out there who aren't as cool as me, who are like, I'm pretty nervous. I mean, one in three. I got a one in three chance here. It feels a little risky. Feels a little trendy. It feels a little too trendy for me. Maybe we got to dial it back. Maybe we need somebody really butch like Stephen Miller in the White House to make sure that we kind of dial back. Dial back the bisexuality. Is that possible?
- [79:39]
Joshua Rush
That's the culture war. That's the boogeyman that they picked to make everybody scared. That's the, like, 12 trans athletes that got the entire United States government to mobilize. It's just the boogeyman that this party that's really good at press picks right now, it happens to be LGBTQIA plus people. It's something about which they can raise alarms and act like everybody ought to be scared. What do you say?
- [80:04]
Cameron Caskey
What's the.
- [80:04]
Joshua Rush
I intersex, I think. But if I'm wrong, cancel me.
- [80:11]
Cameron Caskey
I actually have one more thing for you. Do you have any final thoughts on that before my final request for you, Josh?
- [80:18]
Sebastian
No final thoughts.
- [80:19]
Cameron Caskey
Okay, here it is. Give us a stirring close. You gave us such a bulwarky open, you know, passionate. We need, like, a bisexual William Wallace calling people into action to close the podcast.
- [80:32]
Sebastian
Sure. Shameless. Plug, please. If you are a Texas resident and you're listening to this, please visit. Don't defund my school. Please visit that website. Enter the school district that your children or you, if you are a child, go to find out how much it will lose under school vouchers. Enter your zip code on that website. Get a script to call your representative. Because if there is one thing that I am certain of from my perch right here in Texas is that we have got an opportunity to defeat school vouchers this year, which Republicans have been trying to pass in Texas for. For over 40 years now. Like, this is a. This is a project that came out of segregation. They have been trying to pass school vouchers in Texas. They have been stymied every year by a bipartisan group of Democrats and Republicans who have said, hey, this is a scam. This is bullshit. We want to stop this. We have still got an opportunity to defeat it here in Texas. If you are not here in Texas, please don't call a Texas state representative because they won't care about what you have to say. But if you are not from Texas and you are feeling stressed out and you are feeling nihilistic about everything that is going on, just know that we have got a legitimate shot here in Texas at defeating school vouchers, which has been a Republican priority in damn near every state in the country and has won in damn near every state in the country. If we can do this here in Texas right now, you can get off your ass too, and you can start working for it, for defeating them, for at the very least making sure that it is clear that you stood up against this. That's all.
- [82:06]
Cameron Caskey
I'm ready.
- [82:07]
Sebastian
We can beat them. You just have to give a shit.
- [82:11]
Cameron Caskey
I love it. That's what I was looking for. You're great, Cameron. Great pick.
- [82:15]
Tim Miller
All right, everybody.
- [82:16]
Joshua Rush
Well, this is an announcement officially to end this episode on a high note that I am in early talks, negotiations and exploratory phase of launching a multi million dollar pack from which I am going to pay myself a hefty salary and ideally promote it as aggressively as I possibly can. Whether or not my focus should probably be on strengthening the Democratic Party. I love the Democratic Party. Totally slay. But I'm really focused on me right now and my interests and ideally gaining as much financially and opportunity wise as possible.
- [82:58]
Cameron Caskey
All right, thank you, Cam. And thank you, Josh.