The Bulwark Podcast

Episode: Brian Stelter & Jonathan V. Last: Worst Case Scenario
Date: September 18, 2025
Host: Tim Miller
Guests: Brian Stelter (CNN Chief Media Analyst), Jonathan V. Last (Bulwark Editor)

Overview

This episode dives deep into the shocking and highly politicized suspension of Jimmy Kimmel by ABC/Disney under apparent government pressure. Tim Miller brings on media analyst Brian Stelter and Bulwark editor Jonathan V. Last (JVL) to break down:

• The facts of the Kimmel situation
• The intersection of government coercion, free press, and corporate interest
• Broader patterns of media intimidation and democratic backsliding in the U.S.
• The disparate standards in media and politics (asymmetry)
• Parallels to international authoritarianism and what this all portends for the American media landscape

The episode is blunt and urgent, packed with context, history, and a few moments of dark humor, as the Bulwark team tries to gauge just how dire the present moment is for freedom of speech and press in America.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Jimmy Kimmel Suspension: Facts & Fallout

[02:38–09:53]

• Disney (ABC) suspended Jimmy Kimmel “indefinitely” after pressure from the Trump administration and FCC head Brendan Carr over a joke referencing the Charlie Kirk assassination and MAGA reactions.
• Key context: Kimmel’s joke (“This is how a four year old mourns a goldfish”) about MAGA’s response was made before shooter motive texts were public; the outrage was, according to Miller and Stelter, manufactured.
• FCC head Brendan Carr openly stated on Benny Johnson’s show that broadcasters “can find ways to change conduct, to take action—frankly—on Kimmel, or there’s going to be additional work for the FCC… We can do this the easy way or the hard way,” implying license threats ([08:29]).

Tim Miller:

“This is the government pressuring once again… a corporation that wants a merger approved to stifle any opposition speech in order to get in the good graces of the leader.” ([09:21])

• Brian Stelter compares the transparency and speed of this coercion to earlier, murkier cases like Colbert’s cancellation, calling it “Occam’s Razor”—the facts are what they look like, a clear abuse of governmental authority for political ends.

2. FCC as Enforcer: Brendan Carr’s New Role

[13:12–17:58]

• Brendan Carr, previously a free speech defender and even a Trump critic, now acts as a highly effective enforcer of Trumpist media animus, using public statements and back-channel pressure, leaking letters to media, and even texting Stelter with celebratory memes about Kimmel’s removal.

• Carr frames his threats as “acting in the public interest,” but Miller notes his language now echoes that of “a Chinese government regulator… cracking down on images of Chairman Xi as Winnie the Pooh.”

• Stelter contextualizes this as a continuation of a pattern—starting with a December 2024 $15M settlement between ABC and Trump—of media companies capitulating incrementally to government pressure.

Brian Stelter:

“He is trying to use the press in this battle against the press… publicizing his letters, launching probes, and then telling Newsmax… This has continued to happen over and over again.” ([15:13])

3. Corporate & Partisan Media Response

[17:58–22:01]

• Sinclair (conservative affiliate group) demands Kimmel apologize/donate to Kirk’s family and replace his timeslot with a tribute, turning news coverage into direct, partisan propaganda.
• Nexstar and Sinclair are racing to please Trump/Carr for pending business deals, highlighting the “kleptocracy/oligarchy” side of the story, not just free speech.

Brian Stelter:

“It seems to me… Nexstar and Sinclair are almost competing about who can slather more affection onto Trump and Carr right now. It’s a game of one-upmanship…” ([20:40])

4. Is This Orbanism or Russia-Level Authoritarianism?

[24:47–28:03]

• Stelter draws detailed parallels between Trump’s tactics and Viktor Orbán’s playbook in Hungary: undercut public broadcasting, use regulatory power to pressure/consolidate private media, punish opponents, and reward loyalists.
• However, Stelter notes, the U.S. media system is more robust, with new platforms and an “explosion of freedom” in podcasts, YouTube, and Substack—if old media companies can't withstand pressure, talent will migrate.

Brian Stelter:

“What President Trump has done is… the kind of behavior we saw out of this strongman in Hungary. Now we know what happened there—democratic backsliding, authoritarianism. But there’s also tremendous freedom in new media here in the U.S.” ([26:15])

• Both Miller and Stelter express cautious optimism: backlash or creative realignment may emerge from overreach.

5. Corporate Calculus and Chilling Effects

[29:29–35:56]

• Discussion of Disney’s (Iger’s) logic: get out of broadcast TV if regulation and pressure become too great; but Miller notes that government tentacles reach into every corner of U.S. corporate life now.
• Ominous short-term acquiescence could embolden longer-term assaults on corporate independence and artistic speech.
• Debate about growing “chilling effect,” where journalists and execs self-censor or over-caveat out of fear, not just principle.

Brian Stelter:

“The air temperature has changed, but it’s not so dramatic that we need to put on a coat. It’s a change of degrees, not a total transformation—at least not yet.” ([34:33])

Stelter’s Maxim:

“You’ve got to use your rights or you lose your rights. That’s where we are. That’s where guys like Kimmel are.” ([35:37])

6. JVL: Why This Is “A Bigger Deal Than People Realize”

[38:21–41:24]

• JVL identifies “governmental coercion” as the Rubicon-crossing issue—bold, open government pressure on media, not cancel culture but state repression in plain sight.

JVL:

“The key point… is governmental coercion. The head of the FCC telling people with mergers before his board what they will have to do—saying, ‘We want the affiliates to act in this way,’ telling ABC they can do this the easy way or the hard way. That’s just a crazy thing to say out loud.” ([39:53])

• The suspension is happening openly, not in the shadows, which is both “helpful” in that it’s obvious and dangerous in illustrating how far things have slipped.

7. Asymmetry, Bad Faith, and Created Stories

[41:24–54:58]

• JVL and Miller discuss the double standard: right-wing figures (like VP J.D. Vance) get away with open fabrication (“creating stories”) while any minor misstep or edge-case by liberals is seized upon.
• Vance, on Fox News, claims “Joe Biden’s FBI was investigating Charlie Kirk” and hints that “the networks that motivated, inspired, and maybe even funded Kirk’s murder” should have been investigated instead, with no evidence or pushback ([48:06]).
• Meanwhile, the media environment treats MAGA lies as “just politics” but laser-focuses on “lefty” influencers’ transgressions, perpetuating the imbalance.

JVL:

“Regular order has broken down… The media keeps acting as if things like J.D. Vance’s open admissions don’t need to be baked into every story, but they are willingly being manipulated.” ([46:28])

8. Dark Thoughts: Should the Pro-Democracy Side Counterfight Dirty?

[56:16–61:16]

• Should liberals counter with their own misinformation or asymmetric warfare, given the rewards conservatives reap for the tactic? Both agree, on principle, to tell the truth, but recognize that the “market” does not punish right-wing fabrication and does punish liberal misstatements.

Tim Miller:

“Let the lie into the world, but not through me. I need that for sleeping at night… Still, if a bunch of people are running around muddying the water, what if that’s actually helpful politically?” ([57:25])

9. Notes of Optimism: Backlash and Shifting Norms

[63:14–65:45]

• Miller relates a barstool podcast clip where even conservative-adjacent hosts mock MAGA overreach. JVL finds the possibility of a cultural backlash “a reasonably positive indicator.”

JVL:

“The fact that some of the non-politically aligned, but culturally conservative people… are like, ‘Jeez, that’s not what I’m into.’ That’s a reasonably positive indicator.” ([65:45])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Brendan Carr, FCC head, on Benny Johnson Show:
  “We can do this the easy way or the hard way. Companies can… take action on Kimmel, or… there’s going to be additional work for the FCC… We license broadcasters, and they risk fines or license revocations if they keep running content that’s a pattern of news distortion.” ([08:29])
• Brian Stelter:
  “Carr is trying to use the press in this battle against the press… He’s trying to use government powers in new ways to probe, to some would say harass, media companies Trump doesn’t like.” ([13:28])
• Tim Miller:
  “This is not cancel culture—it’s state repression. It’s an order from the government.” ([40:27])
• JVL:
  “The key point is governmental coercion… None of this is behind closed doors. It’s all just open. Which, in a way, is helpful, but also shows how far down the path we are.” ([39:53])
• Brian Stelter:
  “You’ve got to use your rights or you lose your rights.” ([35:37])
• Jonathan V. Last:
  “Regular order has broken down… Media keeps acting like all is normal, but it’s not. We’re being manipulated.” ([46:28])
• Miller, on possible backlash:
  “Some of this stuff is so clownish that there’s going to be a backlash… it’s so hackish. These big media companies might just be speed running their own decline, which is already happening.” ([28:03])

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Suspension & Media Pressure Facts – 02:38–09:53
• Brendan Carr/FCC Pressure Campaign – 13:12–17:58
• Sinclair & Nexstar Response, Corruption – 17:58–22:01
• Orbanism & Democratic Backsliding – 24:47–28:03
• Chilling Effects & Media Corporate Dynamics – 29:29–35:56
• JVL Segment: State Repression, Asymmetry – 38:21–41:24
• FAKE/Misinfo Double Standard – 41:24–54:58
• Should Pro-Democracy Folks “Fight Dirty” Too? – 56:16–61:16
• Optimism and Backlash Signs – 63:14–65:45

Conclusion

This episode of The Bulwark Podcast presents a stark warning about the open, government-driven repression of dissenting media, using the Kimmel suspension as a vivid inflection point. It contextualizes the threat historically and comparatively, and debates just how long independent media—legacy or new—can hold out under such pressure. While the mood is largely grave, hosts and guests acknowledge areas of resilience and hope: creative outmigration, potential cultural backlash, and a determination not to match lies with lies.

A must-listen for anyone concerned about American democracy and the perilous state of free speech in a rising illiberal era.