The Bulwark Podcast: Carol Leonnig and Robert Putnam - "Lies and Moral Obligations"
Release Date: February 12, 2025

Host: Tim Miller
Guests: Carol Leonnig (Investigative Reporter, The Washington Post) and Robert Putnam (Professor Emeritus of Public Policy at Harvard)

Segment 1: Investigating Kash Patel with Carol Leonnig

FBI Firings and Whistleblower Allegations

[03:06] Tim Miller: Introduces the main story—whistleblower reports suggesting Kash Patel may have known about the recent firings at the FBI and potentially perjured himself during his confirmation hearings.

[03:18] Carol Leonnig: Provides an overview of the unfolding situation at the FBI:

• Executive Leadership Firings: "A week before last, a series of the executive leadership for Chris Wray, the FBI director... were told they were on a list to go."
• Confirmation Hearings: Kash Patel denied awareness of any plans to punish FBI agents involved in Trump investigations. However, whistleblower reports contradict his statements.

Inconsistencies in Kash Patel's Testimony

[07:02] Carol Leonnig: Highlights discrepancies in Patel's statements:

• Perjury Concerns: Patel's inconsistent recounting of his involvement in declassifying Trump’s records and his interactions with prosecutors during grand jury investigations raise red flags.
• Whistleblower Reports: "Contemporaneous notes taken by an FBI official... say, KP wants movement on this."

[09:07] Tim Miller: Emphasizes the direct lie in Patel’s testimony:

"He either was lying or the whistleblower is lying."
(09:10 - Tim Miller)

[09:25] Carol Leonnig: Stresses the lack of clarity and the binary nature of the truth in this situation:

"Kaj Patel has not been a very careful, precise or clear narrator in many other instances before."
(09:25 - Carol Leonnig)

Challenges in Investigating the Allegations

[11:06] Carol Leonnig: Discusses the difficulties in obtaining a swift investigation:

• Inspector General's Role: With multiple Inspector Generals fired recently, delegating the investigation is problematic.
• Potential Delays: "I don't see how this is going to happen quickly."

[14:23] Carol Leonnig: Explains Kash Patel's nuanced position within the FBI:

• Balancing Act: While Patel is viewed positively by many agents, he navigates the perilous task of assuring staff amidst potential political retribution.

DOJ’s Shift in Enforcement Priorities

[16:04] Carol Leonnig: Shifts focus to the Department of Justice's recent policy changes:

• Foreign Corrupt Practices Act (FCPA): Trump ordered a pause in enforcing the FCPA, signaling a move away from combating international corruption.
• Historical Context: Leonnig connects this change to Trump’s earlier attempts to undermine the FCPA, highlighting a pattern of transactional governance over principled law enforcement.

[18:40] Tim Miller: Reflects on the broader implications of these DOJ shifts:

"It's just like this person is lying. And I just want to go back again to the..."
(11:34 - Tim Miller)

[19:33] Carol Leonnig: Concludes with observations on Trump's transactional mindset versus America's traditional values:

"You've got to come up with something like that. And maybe, almost certainly it will involve the Internet, but it won't be just Internet based."
(19:33 - Carol Leonnig)

Segment 2: Exploring Social Isolation with Robert Putnam

The Decline of Social Capital

[28:28] Robert Putnam: Introduces his work and sets the stage for discussing social isolation:

• Key Works: "Bowling Alone" and "The Collapse and Revival of American Community."
• Current Focus: Examines the "loneliness epidemic" and its reverberations in politics.

Social Media vs. Face-to-Face Connections

[29:04] Tim Miller: Compares modern social isolation factors to those before the advent of smartphones and social media.

[29:36] Robert Putnam: Addresses the misconception that social media is solely to blame for declining social connections:

• Historical Decline: "Our connections with other people... have basically been all of them going down roughly since the mid-1960s. Way before iPhones were invented."
• Social Media's Role: Initially hailed as a solution but data shows it may not compensate for the loss of face-to-face interactions.

Notable Quote:

"Marching on, it's not a technological matter, it's an economic matter."
(34:26 - Robert Putnam)

The Human Need for Connection

[35:25] Robert Putnam: Discusses the innate human requirement for social interaction:

• Evolutionary Basis: "There is probably a survival advantage... in being around other human beings."
• Modern Challenges: Technological and social changes make real connections harder despite biological predispositions.

[38:04] Tim Miller: Shares a personal anecdote illustrating the struggle between desired social interaction and convenience:

"I find it hard to believe that it didn't get to him that Trump decided to pardon all of these insurrectionists..."
(38:38 - Tim Miller)

Historical Solutions to Social Isolation

[47:18] Robert Putnam: Offers historical parallels to current social challenges:

• The "Boy Problem": In the early 20th century, isolated young men causing societal issues.
• Solution: Establishment of youth organizations like the Boy Scouts, combining fun with character formation.

Notable Quote:

"Building social capital can't be like saying, eat your spinach, people. It's got to be fun."
(47:24 - Robert Putnam)

Modern Strategies to Rebuild Community

[55:06] Robert Putnam: Proposes strategies based on historical successes:

• Focus on Youth and Young Men: Just as youth organizations helped in the past, modern initiatives should target today's isolated demographics.
• Integration of Technology: While acknowledging the role of the internet, emphasizes that solutions must go beyond virtual interactions to foster real-world connections.

Notable Quote:

"You've got to come up with something like that."
(54:09 - Robert Putnam)

Bridging Social Capital and Political Polarization

[54:57] Robert Putnam: Explains the concept of bridging versus bonding social capital:

• Bridging Social Capital: Connections across diverse groups, essential for reducing political polarization.
• Historical Perspective: Past periods of high cooperation across party lines offer lessons for today’s divided society.

Notable Quote:

"In that, roughly speaking, from the 1900 till about 1965 and even a little later than that, America was moving in the right direction."
(59:57 - Robert Putnam)

Moral Obligations and Social Cohesion

[60:31] Robert Putnam: Emphasizes the importance of moral obligations in fostering social capital:

• Moral Reevaluation: "Do we have obligations to other people?" was a pivotal question that helped rebuild American community.
• Current Implications: Urges a similar moral shift today to address social isolation and inequality.

Notable Quote:

"You're going against the core values that they are currently imbibing."
(61:16 - Robert Putnam)

Conclusion

Tim Miller: Wraps up the episode by thanking both guests for their insightful contributions. He underscores the urgency of addressing both the political controversies surrounding figures like Kash Patel and the broader societal issues of social isolation and declining social capital.

Key Takeaways:

• Political Integrity: The controversy surrounding Kash Patel highlights significant concerns about honesty and accountability within high-level government positions.
• Social Capital Decline: Robert Putnam’s analysis sheds light on the multifaceted nature of social isolation, emphasizing historical precedents and the need for innovative, community-focused solutions.
• Moral Foundations: Reinstating a sense of moral obligation towards others is crucial for rebuilding cohesive and resilient communities.

Recommended Reading:

• Bowling Alone by Robert Putnam
• A Very Stable Genius by Carol Leonnig

For Further Information:
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