← The Bulwark Podcast
The Bulwark Podcast
Catherine Rampell and Robert Garcia: China Is Starting to Eclipse the U.S.
01:13:53
Loading summary
Transcript198 lines
- [00:00]
Jim VandeHei
Want to get more work done with less effort. On TikTok, creators are sharing AI automation tips that save time and deliver better results. Tap to discover. Try TikTok now.
- [00:16]
Robert Garcia
Now with McDonald's, a sausage McMuffin is only 150, so stop dreaming about breakfast
- [00:22]
Katherine Rampel
sausage and go get it.
- [00:24]
Robert Garcia
Get more value on the under $3 menu.
- [00:27]
Katherine Rampel
Limited time only.
- [00:28]
Robert Garcia
Prices and participation may vary. Prices may be higher for delivery foreign.
- [00:43]
Katherine Rampel
Hello, and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. We got a double header for you today in segment two. It is, I think, alongside Ro Khanna, the other congressman who has been the most effective in the opposition for the Democrats in the House this year. And that's Robert Garcia, the ranking member of the Oversight Committee. So we've much to talk to him about. But first, my colleague, my buddy, economics editor here at the Bulwarks. She writes the newsletter Receipts, which is published this evening. Thursday evenings, she also co hosts Ms. Now the Weekend Primetime. It's Katherine Rampel. What's up, girl?
- [01:18]
Jim VandeHei
Hey. Good to see you. Long time no see.
- [01:21]
Katherine Rampel
I know we saw each other, everybody, yesterday at the Bulwark. All Hands. And I'm still in the Shittown in D.C. as you can see from my background here.
- [01:30]
Jim VandeHei
I was wondering where you were. Okay, so you haven't made a lot of money.
- [01:33]
Katherine Rampel
It's all the Bulwark books. I took down the Sarah Longwell QR code that she wanted me to promote in my background. I'm like, this isn't qvc. Okay, you should buy Sarah's book. But this isn't the qvc.
- [01:47]
Jim VandeHei
QVC is bankrupt. So one of the many victims.
- [01:53]
Katherine Rampel
We got a lot of economics talk. And all China talk is at some level, all everything talk is at some level, economics talk. I think that's Tyler Cohen. But I want to talk a little bit about the summit first. Trump and all of our greatest CEOs and much of the cabinet all traveled to China to pay homage to the Communist dictator Xi Jinping. In their opening session, Trump said this. We have a fantastic relationship. I have such respect for China, the job you've done, you're a great leader. I say it to everybody. You're a great Leader. The top CEOs are all here to pay respects to you. It is an honor to be your friend. It's laying it on a little thick for me. I don't know what you think about the meeting.
- [02:41]
Jim VandeHei
He's just a master diplomat right there. You know, he's buttering him up so that he can swoop in and make the deal of the century. I think that's what's going on. No, I think what's actually going on is he brought, you know, a little entourage of rich people to, I think he thinks, impress President Xi because that's how Trump operates. Right. He, he thinks when you're surrounded by rich people, that means you're great and that means that they're paying fealty to you. Probably a lot of those rich people, I. E. The CEOs who were there, I think are really in harm mitigation mode. Maybe they're there. Probably they have multiple objectives. Right. One of them is to do a little solid for Donald Trump, or what Donald Trump thinks is a favor, but also make sure that they walk away without giant new tariffs on iPhones or any of the other supplies that they might be importing from China. So I think all of that stuff is going on there.
- [03:42]
Katherine Rampel
Yeah, Xi didn't seem quite as effusive when talking about Trump. And maybe it's a cultural gap there. I don't know though. Trump was way nicer and more. I just, I mean, he's almost prostrate on the ground with his praise of Xi. You kind of compare that to the treatment of Zelensky getting lectured in the Oval Office or, you know, how he treats a lot of our, you know, Democratic allies. It's a notable gap. There's this picture that was posted on our Reddit page. I'm sorry, for the audio listeners, I have to describe it to you for the videos. Folks will pull this up and it's Trump getting frame mogged by Chairman Xi. They do the photo. It's the China flag, the US Flag, you know, behind them, a little step and repeat. And then we have Chairman Xi just really kind of standing there quite casually looking at the camera, little smirk, very comfortable, nice fitting suit. You know, doesn't kind of seems almost bored a little bit. Trump, on the other hand, leaning over. There's the green line test on social media. Who's leaning in a relationship as a person who has less power. Leaning over aggressively. Grimacing, sweating orange face, white hair, Oompa Loompa face. Trying to grasp Xi's hand aggressively. Very ill fitting suit, unhappy. You know, you can overstate it, but the body language, doctor, I think it says a lot I don't know about you. Am I overlooking, am I looking too much at this picture for.
- [05:12]
Jim VandeHei
I mean, I guess I don't know what frame this was in their overall interaction. It certainly looks like it shows the power dynamics that you just described. And I think however literal this particular picture can be interpreted, I think it does reflect a general shift in the power balance between China and the United States, economically, diplomatically, in basically all of the ways that matter. Look, there's been some good reporting recently about how China increasingly views the United States as a declining power, not just China, presumably, for that matter. But it's pretty important that China views us that way. For a very, very long time, China kind of, I don't know if looked up to us as the right characterization, but in many ways wanted to emulate the United States in, in terms of our living standards, our influence around the world. They wanted to do it a little bit differently. Right. You know, socialism with Chinese characteristics rather than calling it capitalism. And their soft power was of a different form. And they said that they weren't going to intervene or admonish economic partners if they committed human rights abuses, unlike the United States, but they wanted to have the same kind of power and influence and market share around the world that they envied the United States as having. I worked in China a very long time ago, in the early 2000s, and I remember that. What city in Beijing? I was working for NBC News and it was in the lead up to the 2008 Olympics. And I remember this was seen as China's big coming out party and there was a lot of like, emulation of American culture and inviting American pop culture celebrities. I remember I went to the MTV Awards in China while I was there and there was a lot of like, sort of knockoff versions of American pop culture icons and economic innovators and things like that. And now China, I think in many ways is trying to eclipse the United States or has eclipsed the United States, at least in select industries. So that's kind of a longer term story, I think that has been facilitated certainly by Donald Trump and hastened by the Iran war.
- [07:45]
Katherine Rampel
The Iran war, yeah.
- [07:46]
Jim VandeHei
If you look at like, who President Xi has met with just in the past month or a couple of months, you know, it's the leaders of a lot of Asian countries, Southeast Asian countries. Even before the war, you had the PM of Canada, the PM of the uk, the President of South Korea, all coming to Beijing for the first time in many years, in part because they were seeking a relationship, a tighter relationship with a different authoritarian leader as opposed to Donald Trump. And Donald Trump had sort of forced them into the arms of the Chinese government. And so all of that is kind of the subtext of that one photo.
- [08:29]
Katherine Rampel
Yeah. And it's not Just Trump derangement syndrome, neolib neocon, Tucker Carlson foil Kathryn Rampel that has this assessment. We have a Washington Post report out today. A confidential US Intelligence analysis details the ways China is exploiting the war in Iran to further maximize its advantage over the US across military, economic and diplomatic and other fields. It goes through a list of a bunch of stuff, the ways in which China is like reaching out to our allies who are dealing with shortages and energy and other spaces. It seems to me that it is a pretty blanket assessment at this point that Trump comes to this meeting at a moment where China's been maximizing their advantage. So a brutal frame logging by the ASU frat leader, Chairman Xi, you might say other bad news for Trump is kind of the broader economic forces. I want to go through things kind of point by point with you, but I'm wondering what your sense is of the macro right now. And we are in a moment where I feel like we've told the story a bunch over the last year or two. If you're just looking at the stock market, you'd think things are going pretty swimmingly, frankly, but a lot of other indicators not as good. Wondering what your sense is. The macro state of play.
- [09:46]
Jim VandeHei
Yeah, I mean this is why no one should ever take financial advice from me because I frankly do not understand what is going on in the stock market right now. For pretty much the reasons you laid out. Stock markets seem almost euphoric. When there's bad news, they dip a little bit. Bad news, like we don't have a deal with the Iranians, for example. When there's good news, they rocket upward. And it seems very asymmetric to me. And if you look at the valuation of stocks versus how much the underlying companies are actually earning. So like what is the stock price relative to what that company actually earns?
- [10:27]
Katherine Rampel
Equity ratio, isn't that what that is?
- [10:28]
Jim VandeHei
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
- [10:29]
Katherine Rampel
Look at me, I got a C minus in macro 101.
- [10:32]
Jim VandeHei
There you go. If you look at the long term relationship, it seems totally out of whack. The last time it was this out of whack, that ratio was that this off was during the dot com bubble in 2000. So I don't know that that per se means it's a bubble. Maybe this time is different, as people like to say, but it certainly doesn't look great. And I just don't know how much longer it can be sustainable, particularly if this war keeps going. If you keep on these kinds of disruptions not only in energy markets but in fertilizer in plastics, in aluminum, in almost anything that you can imagine. But now, that said, if you look at the actual, like, hard economic data, not the market data, but what's happening to consumer spending or investment, it's not like it's falling off a cliff. It's not great, but it's sort of like chugging along. The job numbers that we got last week, they were fine. They were actually better than expected, but they still weren't, like, spectacular. There have been a bunch of big layoff announcements since then, I think. Who was it? Walmart announced that they were going to be laying off a bunch of people. Goodyear tires. They're closing a plan, but I think it's closing next year. So there have been a bunch of big corporate layoff announcements. Like, you know, how that shakes out relative to other kinds of job growth, I don't know. But basically, the economy has not imploded, which is good, but it's still at odds. It's okay. Whereas stock markets are booming. And the thing that I worry about is that, well, a, markets are just too ebullient. Like, they're. They're. They're too Pollyanna. Ish. And that B, the actual economy is just like one more little shock away from a really bad crash. We're not there yet, but it seems like there's enough fragility in the underlying economy that I'm worried about it.
- [12:33]
Katherine Rampel
All right. One nice thing about working at home is that you can change easily. Some of you who monitor my clothes closely might notice that sometimes I'm changing outfits in between podcasts, even if I'm taping them on the same day. But even though that option is available, it's nice to have flexibility. It's nice to have basics. It's nice to have something that I can wear on the pod. Wear to a concert, where to dinner with my friends, where to do school pickup. And one of our longtime sponsors helps me do just that. It's our buddies at Quince. Quince has pieces that feel easy, comfortable, and still put together, still sharp, you might say. Quince has all the wardrobe staples for spring, like 100% European linen shorts and shirts from 34 bucks and 100% Pima cotton tees with a softness that has to be felt. Best of all, it's reasonably priced, which is important in this economy. Quince works directly with ethical factories and cuts out the middleman, so you're getting premium materials without the markup. I was in Quince's linen shirt last night at dinner. As a matter of fact we went out to a little dinner even though it was Mother's day. We don't have any personal mothers in our house. I have my mother in Denver. Had to send her some flowers. That was unfortunate. But here in New Orleans where we don't have any mothers, we still decided to get a little dressed up and go to dinner. I wore a nice quince linen shirt. I looked very handsome. I thought I got some compliments on it. Also mentioned this before, if you got some kiddos, I've been putting mine in some Quint's shirts and we actually have little matching his and hers quince linen shirt outfit that we're doing now that I think makes us look pretty cute. Refresh your everyday with luxury. You'll actually use head to quince.com the bulwark for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q U I n c e.com the Bulwark for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com the Bulwark one of the in vogue terms in 2020 from economists and it was a lot of democratic campaign folks were talking about this was the K shaped economy like you were seeing this where the basically like the upper middle class and upper class was continuing to do well while things are getting worse for lower middle and lower class people. Kind of stop talking about that a little bit in like the post Covid like kind of era because like wages were kind of going up for you know people in the bottom quintile. You're starting to see that theme pop up again and I think which is related to the stock market which is this kind of K shaped recovery.
- [15:08]
Jim VandeHei
Yeah, it's totally related to the stock market. And actually if you look at like the University of Michigan consumer sentiment numbers they broke out the share of people who talked about their personal finances deteriorating because of higher prices. They, they broke it out for those who own a lot of stocks and those who own no stocks. And as you can imagine the people who do own stocks are much more copacetic I guess like they're mad about gas prices and they're mad about grocery prices going up as because they are going up, they're mad about all of those things. But then they look over at their 401k and they're like man, you know maybe, maybe it's worth it. Maybe it's, it's worth the trade off. Whereas people who do not have those financial assets who are lower income, they can't just eat it on those higher gas prices or other higher prices that they're paying. And they don't have that like, nice little nest egg to think about. So, yeah, you are seeing a divergence. But in general, I mean, people are still pretty unhappy with the economy. The people who are higher income, they're just less unhappy than the poorest people out there.
- [16:15]
Katherine Rampel
One of the things driving this, just as you mentioned there with prices, is the inflation starting to rise again. I think I got this number a little wrong on yesterday's podcast, so my apologies in my notes, but we had this producer price index number that came out yesterday, which is measure of cost that businesses are paying for goods and services that rose 1.4% in April, which, which means it's up 6% year over year. So that's more than what we're seeing in like kind of consumer inflation, which I guess you tell me. But like this sort of signals that like more inflation is coming for the consumers. I guess.
- [16:56]
Jim VandeHei
Yeah, it's the prices that are charged by wholesalers. I think that's a good role, like a good way to think about it. And those prices are rising a lot. And one reason why, as you point out, is like they're more likely to be dealing with the energy shock. It takes a little bit longer for some of that energy shock to work its way down the supply chain. They're dealing with those higher plastic packaging costs. And so, yeah, that's going to work its way through the system that you do normally see the PPI numbers shift a little bit earlier when there's a big shock than the CPI number. So the producers prices versus the consumers prices, that totally makes sense. That is concerning. And again, it's hard to know how long or how disruptive this strait of Hormuz situation is going to be. There are a bunch of circumstances where it looks like people are being a little optimistic about.
- [17:54]
Katherine Rampel
I think people are being a lot optimistic. My opinion is people are being a lot optimistic.
- [18:00]
Jim VandeHei
Yeah. About how quickly things will resolve them themselves. And there have been a bunch of energy CEOs who have basically said, you know, I'm not sure markets have fully priced in how much more expensive things are going to get or how much longer this disruption is going to be. And exactly. It's that optimism, which I don't entirely understand because again, I feel like I hear these conspiracy theories about, oh, like companies are just trying to support Donald Trump and that's why they have these forecasts that, that seem optimistic or that's why oil futures prices aren't higher than they are. And it's like, no, that's not how they work. They're trying to make money. You know, they're, they're. All of these traders are trying to make money. If there is an arbitrage opportunity to be made, because everybody else is like, you know, trying to make Donald Trump look good, and you have the opportunity to make money, you're going to make the money. So I don't think it's about that, but it's animal spirits, I guess, is the best way to characterize it. There's. There's weird stuff happening.
- [18:58]
Katherine Rampel
Yeah. An optimism madman theory. Madman. They're just a feeling like, Trump is not this stupid. Like, we're not going to actually get into a war. Like, it's got to end any day now. I don't, I don't know. They're not listening to the Bloor podcast enough. I don't think clearly they should. This is not, this is not financial advice either, but we've been right about this. I was, I forget if it was Goldman, it was one of the big firms like that, and they had like a projection the week of the war or the week that Trump started for when gas prices were going to come back down. And it was like, now, because, you know, we've been in this 70 days now, and, you know, somebody posted this, this graph that Goldman was, like, circulating a couple months ago, and I was like, maybe I should be a Goldman. Not at the Bulwark. I mean, I should be making. I, maybe I'd be making more money. They should hire me. I'd have a pretty high rate, like an hourly rate. And I'd call them and be like, guys like this, this is a quagmire.
- [19:49]
Jim VandeHei
Yeah.
- [19:50]
Katherine Rampel
Even if he tried to get out of it immediately, Iran now realizes that they have power there. They're going to make it harder to go through. Like, Iran now has the TPS report that they're sending the ships that you're going to send to them if you're going to come through. And there was free passage. Right. So I don't know how these numbers in front of me, but I've looked at the infographics of how many ships were going through the strait before the war started. And so even if it reopens, but it's slowed because they don't know where the mines are, because Iran is vetting the ships that come through, like, all of that will also have an impact on the supply chains. And as a report came out, the oil inventories are already Falling, like, everywhere around the world, and that they're gonna continue to fall for months. And so some of this is being buttressed by, like, backlogged inventories. But anyway, long story short, I think it's way worse than people are saying.
- [20:42]
Jim VandeHei
Yeah. And the question is, how credible is it if the United States says this strait is open, if the Iranian government says the strait is open, if you are a company thinking about sending your commercial tanker through that strait, do you believe it? Right. Do you believe that you're not going to get hit by a drone or a mine or anything else? Does your crew believe it? Let's say. Let's say it is a believe it insurance company. All of those things add costs. Even if the tankers, you know, resume going through, resume transiting at the same rates that they were before, which I think is not likely to happen anytime soon, it's going to be much more costly because of all of that risk that's baked in there, because people cannot unsee the fact that it has been closed and dangerous for a very long time. You can't just pretend it goes back.
- [21:33]
Katherine Rampel
Yeah. And just being with the insurance, again, not a macroeconomist, but I moved to New Orleans where the roads are shitty, and guess what? My car insurance went up a bunch because there's more wrecks here than there is in Kansas or whatever. And so that's going to happen to the whole economy. The people that are insuring and reinsuring these tankers, the numbers crunchers back there at Tanker Insurance HQ are going to be like, I think we need to up the rates. Okay. If we're going to be sending these ships. So it's like anyway.
- [22:06]
Jim VandeHei
Yeah, I mean, that's already happened.
- [22:10]
Katherine Rampel
You've heard me talk about Oneskin before. And whether you're someone who tries every new skin care product that hits the market, or you've been using the same one or two things for years, well, you're one of those guys out there that is still not moisturizing, even though I've been telling you to for three years now. No matter which category you fit in, one skin's got something for you. It didn't just make my existing routine better. It actually works different than everything else I've tried. As we age, some skin cells stop functioning the way they should. Longevity scientists call those the zombie cells. And that's what's actually driving those visible signs of aging. The dullness that creeps in over time. We're all seeing that on the President and OneSkin's OS1 peptide was specifically engineered to address those zombie cells. So you're getting everything you expect from great skin care with OS1 doing something most skin care was never built to do. I've been one skinning. I almost think that you have to believe that there's been a material difference in the 40 something straight males skin longevity. Just based on my advocacy here in New Orleans. I can just see it. I'm seeing it at school, among the dads, among my friends at the shows. They're on it now. They're moisturizing, they've turned to one skin. People are complimenting them, their wives are happier. Get on board. Do it. It's not just my visual experience you can trust. Oneskin's results are backed by peer reviewed clinical studies and they got a bunch of 5 star reviews as well. Bor from over a decade of longevity research. OneSkin's OS1 peptide has proven to target the visible signs of aging, helping you unlock your healthiest skin now. And as you age, for a limited time, try OneSkin with 15% off using code bulwark at OneSkin co. Bulwark, that's 15% off. OneSkin co with code Bulwark. After you purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them we sent you. You're writing tonight about the bond rate. Everybody immediately their eyes start to glaze over. It's nap time now once we start out the bond. But it is quite important. The craziest thing about all of this to me is one of Trump's big things when he came back in was he wants to get interest rates back down. And obviously he did it in a corrupt way and he did it in that ham fisted way. And he's not an economist, he doesn't know anything. There was something to the fact that in addition to inflation, one of the other reasons I think why people were so down on the Biden economy was because interest rates were so high that people felt stuck. You know, if you're a senior and you want to downsize, you're like, I'm going to downsize and pay more because the mortgage rates are so much higher. Right. Like, like us, like we had. If you moved for a job, you're like, ugh, you're going to have to move just far or you know, you, if you had another kid and you're like, I want to move out to the suburbs and get into a bigger house and upsize.
- [24:58]
Jim VandeHei
It's like, buy a car.
- [24:59]
Katherine Rampel
Yeah, or buy a car. Like it just wasn't affordable. Like it wasn't affordable to do all of that because the interest rates are so much higher than they were pre Covid and that was starting to come back down. Like we're, you know, I was looking to refinance. Like we were watching it. It's like we're almost like a couple quarters away from being like, you know, where there's a little bit of slack out there for people. And I think that that was going to have a real impact that was going to benefit Trump economically. Like, you know, the people are happier about the state of the economy if interest rates are lower. Not everybody, not the people collecting the interest, but, you know, most of the economy. And he just fucked all of that up in two months.
- [25:35]
Jim VandeHei
To be fair, it's more than two months because it started with Liberation Day when he raised tariffs. Because what happens is interest rates are related to what's happening in inflation. Right? I think typical consumers are like, well, higher interest rates make things more expensive. So they're part of the problem. They're actually the solution to the inflation. It's not super intuitive, but basically what happens is when you have prices going up a lot, that means the Fed is to going more often than not going to raise interest rates to try to like squelch inflation. And then eventually you hope to get to this equilibrium where prices are lower and interest rates are lower, but you kind of need the inflation thing to go down first before you can bring down interest rates. And what Donald Trump has done instead is he's re accelerated inflation. He did it with tariffs and now he's doing it with the war. And the real question for the Fed is, well, is it like a one time increase in prices that was, that was the hope with tariffs that it would be a one time increase. It's not like an ongoing increase in prices that you really have to worry about. You know, inflation kind of spiraling, spiraling out of control. Same deal with a massive oil shock. Is it a one time increase in oil prices? And what happens is there's this fear that there's like this one, two punch of those things together that will reset people's expectations so that they start to expect ever higher prices. Even if the oil shock was kind of a one time thing, people start worrying about prices going up so they preemptively raise their own prices which becomes self perpetuating because nobody wants to get caught off guard being the only, you know, chump out there essentially who isn't raising their prices when everybody else is. I was thinking of more Vulgar words for that, but yes, I like the vulgar word.
- [27:22]
Katherine Rampel
I want to hear you cuss. Give me something, sucker.
- [27:25]
Jim VandeHei
Anyway, so that's the real problem here, that Trump himself has re accelerated inflation and now the Fed doesn't know what to do about it. When we started this year, it looked like, you know, markets kind of thought that, like, the Fed was gonna cut rates a couple more times. As you mentioned, they had cut rates last year. It looked like they were gonna cut rates a couple more times. And now that seems to be off the table. Markets do not think that there's gonna be a rate cut this year, maybe not even next year. In fact, it looks more likely that they're gonna raise interest rates rather than cut them by the end of next year, which none of which is good for consumers, none of which is good for voters when they're going to the voting booth, for all the reasons you just mentioned. It's also really shitty for Kevin Warsh, who just got confirmed to be the Fed chair. He just got confirmed yesterday.
- [28:15]
Katherine Rampel
Yeah, let's talk about this. He is really in a. Like, what do you do if you're Kevin Warsh? I guess maybe you don't care because you got the job you always dreamed of by sucking up to Trump and now you just do whatever you want, I guess would be the hope. But, yeah, he's screwed. He's in a real tough spot.
- [28:30]
Jim VandeHei
He screwed because he got the job because Donald Trump thinks he's going to cut interest rates. There were a number of reasons to think that that would be difficult for Kevin Warsh to do. One is that he historically is considered an inflation hawk. Whatever he's been saying recently about cutting interest rates. And he has publicly, at least, like last year when he was auditioning for the job, he has said that he wanted to cut interest rates. He is known throughout his career as as like, erring more on the side of higher rates, tighter monetary policy because he was so worried about inflation. So, like, he seems to be constitutionally primed. Not constitutional like our founding document, but, like, in his character. Right. He seems to be, like, more likely to lean towards higher rates, not lower rates. Then you have the actual inflation that you are seeing throughout the economy, again, largely instigated by Trump, Trump's own policies, because Trump doesn't seem to understand what his policies do. That makes it harder for Kevin Warsh to get on board with rate cuts. And then the biggest challenge is that Kevin Warsh is one of 12 people who will be voting on interest rates, even if he wants to get rates lower, either because he believes that's the right path, which I don't think, or because he's worried about wrath from Donald Trump, which I do think he can't do it. And so the real question is, how does he manage that? How does he manage Donald Trump? When he comes into the Fed, he's supposed to be, you know, sort of like operating by consensus, getting everybody onto, onto an agreement about where interest rates and other monetary policy should go. He's supposed to be marshaling the troops and getting them to, you know, more or less. They vote as a bloc. There are a couple of dissents recently. That's unusual. Usually they vote as a block. So he's trying to get them all on the same page. Meanwhile, Donald Trump is going to be breathing down his neck saying, why aren't you cutting rates? And even if he wanted to, he can't force this group of people to do it. So I wonder what Kevin Warsh is going to do. Is he going to like be the first Fed chair ever to dissent from the rest of the Fed board? I don't think that's going to happen, but he's going to have to manage expectations for Donald Trump.
- [30:37]
Katherine Rampel
If I was him, I'd do a Trump and I would start tweeting, trash talking the other Fed board members, the other governors, and just blame them and just be like, these losers won't let me do what I want to do. Wink. That's what I would do if I was Kevin Warsh.
- [30:52]
Jim VandeHei
Yeah. Except that Warsh's vote on interest rates will be public. So is he actually going to.
- [30:58]
Katherine Rampel
He can tweet 11 to 1.
- [31:00]
Jim VandeHei
Yeah. I mean, he can tweet saying they did the opposite of what I wanted them to do. But A, he looks ineffectual and B, like his vote will be a matter of public record. Did he vote along with them?
- [31:11]
Katherine Rampel
He's gonna vote. He'll do just like Susan Collins. He's gonna vote how Trump wants and then say, I'm very concerned about what these other people are doing over there, but I'm covered. I don't know. I'm just joking.
- [31:23]
Jim VandeHei
I mean, and I wonder how worried he is or should be about Trump weaponizing the state against him like Trump has against Jay Powell and against Lisa Cook, who's another Fed governor.
- [31:35]
Katherine Rampel
Probably less concerned about that because his father in law is Trump's buddy Ron Louder, and they were doing the mine deal in Ukraine and he was trying. And Louder's been pushing for the Greenland, Greenland thing and they're Both in the Epstein files. I don't know, he might have a little more cover than Drone Powell and that little Epstein class love.
- [31:53]
Jim VandeHei
I don't know. I mean, Trump has certainly turned heel on lots of other people who thought that they had more of a shield than Kevin Warsh has.
- [32:02]
Katherine Rampel
All right, I have one other topic, but before I just, I just want to let you know, like, I've got Ann Applebaum to cuss on this podcast. Bill Kristol and Jimmy, I said shitty. I said shitty. Bill Kristol and Jim Comey cussed on the podcast this week. So whatever vulgar word you had in your mind, this is the place for it. Just let it loose. Let your animal spirits loose. That's all I'm saying. Catherine. All right. I saw you talking about the ag economy this week on a social clip, and I do just want to close with that because I think it's important because we care about the well being of our farmer brothers and sisters who feed us. So for earnest reasons, it's important. For political reasons, it's pretty important because if the Democrats are going to take the power back that they need this fall, they're going to have to win in some farm areas like Iowa, Ohio, Nebraska, Kansas. Like, this is where the Senate is being fought and the economies there are shitty. And I was interested this morning to see Roger Marshall on Sputnik, Fox Business, who's Senator from Kansas talking about how things are going in his state. Let's listen. China knows that he means business as well, so we're trusting it. We trust in Trump that he's over there making a great deal for us. No, no one's done more for American agriculture and rural America than President Trump, Secretary Rollins and a Republican. Only Congress. Hmm. Excuse me. That's Sputnik, Newsmax, not Fox Business. It's hard to tell the difference between the three sometimes. ROGER Marshall, Kansas Senator on Newsmax he's got an election coming up. What'd you think about that assessment? Nobody's done more than Brooke Rollins and Trump, and farm country is just having a golden age right now.
- [33:44]
Jim VandeHei
I think few people in American history have done more to screw over farmers than Donald Trump has in a very compressed period of time. If you look at what's happened to farm bankruptcies, they rose 46% last year. And that's not only because of Trump policies, to be clear, but it's largely because of Trump policies through tariffs, which raise their input costs for things like fertilizer for the equipment that they need. The tariffs also led to countries around the world basically boycotting American goods. China stopped buying soybeans entirely for a while. And that's obviously hurt farmers in a lot of the states that you just rattled off. You have Trump deporting a large share of their labor force. The interest rates are really hurting farmers as well. And then you have little noticed, I think, by much of the media, but the cancellation of a bunch of food aid programs that helped, yeah, these farmers, you know, not just USAID and, and, you know, foreign aid programs that have been cut off that US Farmers historically have been very supportive of because their, their crops and their meat products are being used to feed the world. But also here in the United States, you have SNAP getting huge cuts, which the administration is bragging about, of course, saying that, like, they've lifted people off of snap. No, they've pushed people off of snap. That hurts farmers. And then a other, like more niche programs related to school lunches and other kinds of domestic food assistance programs that historically have supported farmers and have given them a little more cushion, particularly because they get hurt by all sorts of shocks that are again, not policy driven. Things like droughts, which we're also dealing with in parts of the country right now. So all of these things have tremendously hurt farmers, which, as you point out, is historically one of Trump's core constituencies. And then, of course, the war. Right, the war has accelerated all of this stuff. Higher diesel prices, higher fertilizer prices, everything has gotten more expensive. So I think that's why you've seen a number of these kind of like, I don't know, sob stories or whatever, you know, this genre of news story where you have farmers saying, I thought he was going to help us and then he didn't help us, and he's done all of these things and why can't he look out for us? It's really hard to know how much of it is about him not understanding the impact of his policies and his just total indifference to the impact of his policies.
- [36:19]
Katherine Rampel
Not caring, I think not giving a fuck about them actually, is that. No, I was covering this during Doge. There's a farmer in north Louisiana that cold called me kind of through a friend, just trying to get attention on this. And it was, they did the kind of healthy greens for the local schools. Right. Like that, for that food program. Right. Like the, you know, lettuces are like grown in Louisiana that didn't have, you know, this is not my area of expertise, but didn't have all the nonsense that the mass market lettuces have. And like in addition to that, you know, there's less travel, so it's fresher. Right. And that program was canceled. It was just like, that was my bit. That was like half the farm. That was what our food was going to. And instead, now the school kids are getting, you know, whatever iceberg lettuce sent in from Nebraska. And it's like, this is crazy. So anyway, that's out. And then this week we had the beef thing also on top of that, where Trump talked about lowering tariffs again on beef to help beef prices down to get more foreign beef in. But the domestic farmers were like, what the fuck? You keep screwing us left and right. And so he kind of backed off that. So I don't. They're in a bad way on this. I think that food prices are going up and farm country is bad off. Anything else we're missing out there in econ world? You want people to know?
- [37:38]
Jim VandeHei
I don't know. I'm sure there's stuff we're missing because there's always stuff we're missing.
- [37:41]
Katherine Rampel
All right. We're doing our best. You send any tips to Kathryn Rampel? The Receipts newsletter out tonight, there'll be more on Kevin Warsh.
- [37:48]
Jim VandeHei
Actually, can I make one call out?
- [37:50]
Katherine Rampel
Yeah.
- [37:50]
Jim VandeHei
Which is. I am working on a piece about the tariff refunds that are being issued. They've started trickling out, and I want to hear from people who have applied for them or who are considering applying for them or who. Who are afraid to apply for them because they're worried about retaliation. I want to hear your stories because I'm trying to get a sense of how it's going out there.
- [38:11]
Katherine Rampel
All right? So if you want to send a tip to Katherine on that or if there are any other tips, things you should know about us, we have a tip line, the bulwark.com tips. So go check that out. Katherine, appreciate you very much. Everybody subscribe to the Receipts newsletter. We have a million subscribers now. Email subscribers on the Bulwark. Isn't that crazy?
- [38:27]
Jim VandeHei
That's awesome.
- [38:28]
Katherine Rampel
We appreciate all you guys. And up next, Congressman Robert Garcia,
- [38:47]
Robert Garcia
Now with McDonald's.
- [38:48]
Katherine Rampel
A sausage McMuffin is only 150, so stop dreaming about breakfast sausage and go
- [38:54]
Robert Garcia
get get more value on the under $3 menu.
- [38:58]
Katherine Rampel
Limited time only.
- [38:59]
Robert Garcia
Prices and participation may vary. Prices may be higher for delivery.
- [39:01]
Katherine Rampel
Premier hosts on VRBO deliver quality vacation
- [39:04]
Robert Garcia
rental stays with fast responses and clear
- [39:06]
Katherine Rampel
instructions so you don't have to worry about surprises.
- [39:09]
Jim VandeHei
I asked our host a question about the house last night and he got back to me super Quick.
- [39:14]
Katherine Rampel
See, that's the premier host move right there.
- [39:16]
Jim VandeHei
I wish I had a premier group chat. I asked them where we should have dinner. Dinner last night and they left me on red. I know you saw it. It says it.
- [39:23]
Katherine Rampel
Classic group chat move. Don't walk into a surprise book a top rated verbo. Stay with a premier host if you know you verbo. And we're back. He's a Democrat representing California's 42nd congressional district. He's a ranking member of the oversight Committee and has been part of the effort to force the Trump administration to release the Epstein files. It's Robert Garcia. What's up, man? Good to see you again.
- [39:44]
Robert Garcia
Good to see you.
- [39:44]
Katherine Rampel
Been a minute. Yes. We had you at the, at the Free Andree event.
- [39:48]
Robert Garcia
That's right.
- [39:48]
Katherine Rampel
That was a win.
- [39:49]
Robert Garcia
That was a huge win.
- [39:50]
Katherine Rampel
Ccon nobody's in seekot right now. I mean, they're El Salvadorans in town, but we can only do so much here. That's right. Congressmen in America. But none of the folks that we sent there are still there. People don't talk about that stuff anymore. I think it was kind of like Minnesota for me. An example of aggressive resistance can work, actually. And there's a lot of stuff to be upset about. There's a lot of frustrating stuff. But I do think it was kind of an early sign that if he was pushed back against that there actually are levers to put pressure against this administration even though they've have control of D.C. yeah.
- [40:30]
Robert Garcia
And I think also it shows that if you actually fight and take action and be aggressive, you can get some stuff done or bring attention to issues. And I think going down there, whether it was for Kilmer, Abrego Garcia, for Andrea, of course, I mean, elevating his story, it was the first time that folks at the State Department had heard his story. It was important. And he's actually doing fine now. I mean, he's out there. I've actually talked to him since. I know you've talked to him since. So I know that he would love to come here to the US which has been great.
- [40:59]
Katherine Rampel
Maybe 2029.
- [41:00]
Robert Garcia
Maybe 2029.
- [41:01]
Katherine Rampel
We'll get to that in a minute. The other example that as I mentioned that you were spearheading on where pushback against the administration has been effective and maybe not, maybe we haven't gotten everything that we wanted. But you've seen the difference is on Epstein earlier this week, you were in West Palm beach getting testimony from Epstein victims. Talk about that hearing and what else is ahead.
- [41:26]
Robert Garcia
Yeah, I mean, Look, I think first the Epstein case is the single largest government cover up in modern American history. Number one, this is the single largest international sex trafficking ring we think in modern American history as well. So the issue is front and center, I think in the public. Donald Trump's most unpopular issue. It's bipartisan. Republicans and Democrats agree, everyone agrees that this is a big issue. People gotta be engaged. The reality is, is that there has been a huge cover up going on, being directed by this White House and failures going back multiple administrations. Like I put a lot of blame also on Merrick Garland for example. Like why the hell weren't we prosecuting folks? Why was information out during, during that, during that administration. But now we're at a point where the current President has called this a hoax. The Attorney General, former AG Pambondi and the current one have wanted to move on for months and months and the survivors have yet to receive justice. There have been co conspirators, there have been other men that have caused the abuse and there's been no convictions as well. And so we're trying to highlight the stories of the survivors who try to work when possible in a bipartisan way to get support for subpoenas even in the majority. We have fought really hard, been really aggressive and we've got information, I mean the only reason why you've had had those emails out that got released earlier from Trump and Colleen Maxwell and the only reason all those photos and videos of the island and all of those, all that information has been out. And quite frankly the files that we've seen was because Democrats have fought to get it out even though half of the files are still in the possession of the DOJ half, 2.5 million documents at minimum. And so this is not an issue that's going to go away and we're going to push it all the way until we get justice for the survivors,
- [43:08]
Katherine Rampel
the Democrats and Thomas Massie, he's got a primary next week.
- [43:12]
Robert Garcia
Thomas Massey is a huge. Absolutely. Well and look and credit to some of the Republican women, Nancy Mace, Lauren Boebert, Anna Polina Luna, while I disagree with them on almost everything, have actually been quite good on this issue.
- [43:26]
Katherine Rampel
The one frustrating thing about, and maybe this is part of the other documents that they have. But I do think the one, one thing that from those of us on the outside are wondering is it still seems like there's a dearth of co conspirator information. We know what Jeffrey Epstein was doing, maybe not everything, but we know what Ghislaine Maxwell was doing. Overseas, there have been some examples, Prince Andrew, et cetera, but there really hasn't been any kind of big breakthroughs or accountability about other co conspirators who were sexually abusing girls. What do you think? What do you make of that?
- [44:02]
Robert Garcia
I think that is partly true. I think one is we can't know the full story until we get all of the files. I think one thing that Donald Trump has been saying, and he's told this to other members, and Marjorie Taylor Greene recently said it as well, was that if all the files get released, a lot of his friends are gonna get in trouble, and he doesn't wanna see his friends go through this. Well, some of these friends are likely these co conspirators and, or folks that actually raped and abused women and children. And so we have to get to the bottom of that. You cannot complete an investigation when over half of your evidence is still in the possession of the doj. And of the evidence that they've released in the current files, some of those names are still redacted that we haven't had access to. And so when you're redacting the names of co conspirators of men that possibly committed the harm, and you're, you know, don't give a shit about exposing the women and the survivors and doxxing them and putting their names out there so that they're actually in danger, that's a problem. And so there's still a lot of work to do. And look, we know, and we have heard of certain folks that could have been involved, but the evidence and to actually build that evidence is ongoing.
- [45:09]
Katherine Rampel
Yeah. Has there been anything as you were reviewing the files, going through all this, like, what was the thing that shocked you the most?
- [45:18]
Robert Garcia
I mean, honestly, what has shocked me the most is that the level of effort by our government, current and former, to not aggressively prosecute anyone or conduct thorough investigations. So I'll give you an example. Folks like Les Wexer, who was of course Epstein's chief financier benefactor, his former attorney, and his former accountant, Darren Indyke, Richard Kahn, Those three were never once interviewed by any law enforcement agency, the FBI or the DOJ over these last few decades. Not once. And it's not just them, it's multiple other folks. So for the very first time, we are interviewing these key figures. The Oversight Committee is not law enforcement, but a congressional committee. In trying to put this investigation together, the folks who should have been interviewing these people were the FBI, were the Department of Justice, were local police departments, but no one did anything and so that part, to me, has been stunning and clearly points to a cover up of where folks were pulling strings to ensure that people weren't being interviewed and that the truth wouldn't get out. So that part has been, I think, the most surprising. The second one I'll say is all signs point back to Alex Acosta. And I think what people don't realize is when the 2008 sweetheart deal happened with Jeffrey Epstein, which was essentially given to him by Alex Acosta, numerous prosecutors in Florida had gone to Acosta and said, look, we have evidence to go after strong federal charges, we have evidence to go after co conspirators. There's a lot here. For whatever reason, Alex Acosta makes a decision to say, we're not gonna do any of that and instead we're gonna give Epstein this slap on the wrist. He serves less than a year and is on house arrest.
- [47:17]
Katherine Rampel
He gets to walk around, and not
- [47:19]
Robert Garcia
only he's on a house arrest, like
- [47:20]
Katherine Rampel
walk around town, walk around the prison
- [47:22]
Robert Garcia
yard, he's basically not in prison. I mean, it's basically a fake conviction. And then he goes on to continue to rape and abuse women and children. And he begins this international sex trafficking ring post 2008, where he's bringing in women from Eastern Europe and other places. And this only happens because Alex Acosta chooses to essentially not listen to the prosecutors in his own office. So the question is, why did Alice Acosta do this? Did anyone direct Alex Acosta? And then, of course, Alex Acosta goes on to become Donald Trump's Labor Secretary. And so I think those two things
- [47:58]
Katherine Rampel
have been kind of ominous. When you say, did anyone direct Lacasse, do you have someone in mind?
- [48:03]
Robert Garcia
I mean, look, I think there's a lot. I suspect that this investigation has so many layers. There's so much money involved here. So many people were clearly engaged at the highest levels of government. Look, when you have the monarchy and you have former princes engaged, this is a very high level of influence in people that are involved in this investigation.
- [48:27]
Katherine Rampel
We might come back to this when I talk about what's ahead in 2027, but we've got a little news stuff first. So there's a war powers vote coming up probably today in the House on the Iran war, even though it failed in the Senate, thanks to our friend John Fetterman, who voted with the Republicans to continue to give Trump these war powers. I guess I'm just wondering, at the broadest level, before we get to the politics, what's your sense of for how the war is going Terribly.
- [48:57]
Robert Garcia
I mean, what are we doing? There's no mission, there's no outcome. We call it a war, then we don't. That's an attack, then it's not. There's no real consistency what's going on as it relates to the Strait of Hormuz. Our international allies are all over the place. We're being condemned by folks that should be working with us. There's no end in sight. I have no idea what's going on from day to day. There's really no briefings happening to the Congress. And so it's been going to. And we're spending, what, a billion dollars a day to do what? The same family is still in power. And when you talk to folks, look, even when you talk to Iranian Americans or folks that are here, and I have a large group in my community, even many of them that early on wanted that regime change. We all did. Right. I mean, we're talking about a horrible situation now, are wondering what the fuck is going on.
- [49:52]
Katherine Rampel
You are seeing a change among kind
- [49:53]
Robert Garcia
of the experts, 100%. I mean, when I talk to my Iranian American community back home, I have seen the shift. I mean, early on there was strong support, hoping that there would be some kind of major change. And now you have seen a lot of them going. A lot of them actually believe, some of them, that they are worse off because now their dreams have been crushed. The idea of rebelling or overthrowing the regime for many now is gone. And we're spending endless amounts of money. So why aren't we spending that money here to help people back home? And so I think there is no end or mission. And that, I think, is a clear problem.
- [50:31]
Katherine Rampel
Yeah, it kind of shows you how bad it's going that I had that I laughed at myself as if it was a ridiculous question to ask how the war is going because it's just so obviously going terribly. And I do wonder. I've been almost surprised a little bit that there hasn't been more pressure on your Republican colleagues from their home districts to start to push back on this. I mean, again, it's party line vote. The Senate, I expect, will be close to a party line vote today in the House. We'll see. But what is your sense from your Republican colleagues about why they're going along with this? They can't even offer a plausible argument for what's happening.
- [51:06]
Robert Garcia
Look, I think it's supportive of Donald Trump. I think they just want to support the president. I think many of them are also wondering what we're doing. But they have decided to essentially march lockstep with the President on everything. Now, I think back home, it's a different story. I think you're starting to see folks within the party and the base and Republicans back home going, what are we doing? My gas is still six bucks a gallon, like it is in California. I'm not. I'm not getting any more money from the government. Where the hell is no tax on tips? Where the hell is my. My check I was getting from Donald Trump?
- [51:40]
Katherine Rampel
I mean, they're not safer. I wasn't scared of Iran in the first place.
- [51:43]
Robert Garcia
Exactly right. And why are we launching all these foreign wars when you said you were gonna be the President of peace or whatever the hell he was calling himself? So I think that there is a clear break that's happening at the base level that has not yet reached the Congress.
- [51:57]
Katherine Rampel
Here's my political question for you on the Democratic side about this, and feel free to tell me that I'm wrong, but when you took over the Oversight Committee, I noticed that there was a big change in the level of aggression and oversight. And kudos to you, particularly on immigration and ICE issues and Epstein. And it was like, we know that Garcia and Khan are the guys that are going after the Epstein files, that are doing oversight. They're in the media. They're on social media. They're pushing this. Given the scale of the disaster of the Iran war, the Democratic response has felt a little tepid to me. It's like, who? I feel like if I was a Democratic House member, I would be essentially Cindy Sheehan during the Iraq war. Remember her? Think she was outside W's house. I feel like I would be outside Jared Kushner's house or something with a bullhorn screaming. It is an insane war. The economic damage that's happening to Americans, it's only gonna increase. And I just wonder, do you feel that there's maybe not as much fight as you might expect, or. Or do you have a suggestion for a good person who might be the Robert Garcia of the Iran war within your caucus?
- [53:08]
Robert Garcia
Look, I think there's so much horror happening at once that I think folks are trying to push back in ways that they can. And I understand, first of all, the anger. I am of the belief that we should be angrier about everything, not just Epstein and not just ice, but we should be angry about the Iran war. We should be angry about affordability issues. We should be angry about what's happening with voting rights. So all of those issues we should be angry about. I also think that is where it's important to bring in newer folks. And you know, when I got elected to the caucus, I think I was the first sophomore in 100 years to be elected to lead a committee in our party. And I think that tells you that for too long I think we have elevated just whoever's next. And I think it's really important that to match the anger that you're seeing, we elect new folks, bring in new ideas, and bring in next generation Democrats. As far as the Iran war, look, I think people are pretty pissed and they're pretty pissed in Congress. And I hear it. I wish we would be angry. I think there's plenty of opportunity for us to push back even harder.
- [54:18]
Katherine Rampel
Get out on Fox. I don't know if you have some congressional buddies who are looking to make a name for themselves. I do think this is the moment. And I say this kind of cheekily, but have you ever done the Piers Morgan arguing show? Have you ever done the Jerry Springer Piers Morgan show?
- [54:31]
Robert Garcia
I've never done Piers Morgan.
- [54:32]
Katherine Rampel
Okay, well, they ask me all the time and I always choose to do it when Trump is the weakest. Cuz that's when it's the most fun, when he's done something particularly stupid. Because it's like, I know that the other people in the food fight aren't gonna be able to put forth a compelling counter argument. And I felt like this is the moment for that for the last month. Maybe Fox won't have Democrats on right now, I don't know. But like, I do feel like it's the moment to kind of go into MAGA territory and make the case. You don't have to be condescending about it or a dick about it, but go in there and just say, hey, he's betraying you and this crisis is gonna get worse. And anyway, that's not really a question. It's more of a comment than a question. Tell your colleagues, get out there, do this.
- [55:14]
Robert Garcia
Look, I think, look, I've been foxed a few times. We're gonna continue to do that, but I think we actually have. I think some of our best communicators had some of their best moments on Fox.
- [55:22]
Katherine Rampel
Yeah, Jason Crowe's been on recently.
- [55:25]
Robert Garcia
Jason Crow. Jason Crow is. Jason Crow is actually someone, I think in our caucus who is a excellent communicator. And because he's a veteran also, he brings you a really great perspective. I think we got a lot more of those folks in the Congress and we should encourage to uplift them day or night. VRBoCare is here 247 to help make every part of your stay seamless. If anything comes up or you simply
- [55:49]
Jim VandeHei
need a little guidance, support is ready whenever you reach out. From the moment you book to the moment you head home. We're here to help things run smoothly,
- [56:00]
Robert Garcia
because a great trip starts with the right support. And, hey, a good playlist doesn't hurt either.
- [56:08]
Katherine Rampel
Hello, I am the voice of AI. We've been hearing that you humans are concerned that we are going to take your jobs.
- [56:16]
Robert Garcia
But here's a question.
- [56:17]
Katherine Rampel
Do you even like your job? Is it rewarding? When I scan all the data out there, I find that less than 50% of people are completely satisfied with their job. So from our point of view, we're doing humans a favor by taking jobs that you're not even happy with.
- [56:34]
Jim VandeHei
It shouldn't take the threat of AI to get you to move on from a job you don't love. What it does take is a plan, guidance, and the right kind of motivation, all of which you'll get from a career coach at Strawberry Me. A Strawberry coach will work with you to understand what you really want and help you put together a plan to get it. It's like therapy for your career. Don't let AI or anything else get in your way.
- [56:59]
Robert Garcia
Go to Strawberry Me Bulwark for 15%
- [57:02]
Katherine Rampel
off your first coaching session.
- [57:04]
Robert Garcia
That's Strawberry Me Bulwark.
- [57:10]
Katherine Rampel
Let's talk about this fall election and the prospects in the House. And I think a week ago, before the gutting of the Voting Rights act, there's no assurances in life or in politics, but everybody felt very strong that the Democrats were going to win the House and that Hakeem Jeffries is going to be the speaker. And Republicans might try to cheat, but just the dynamics, the political dynamics, the map with such that it's gonna be very challenging for them to hold the House. Now, after that ruling and after the ruling in Virginia, I think the Democrats are still favored. I think you guys are still favored to take back the House, but it doesn't feel like a guarantee. And I'm wondering what the feeling is among your colleagues.
- [57:54]
Robert Garcia
I think that is about the feeling. I mean, look, I think. I think if we fight like hell we're gonna win. And I think that. That the leader is mapping out a path to victory and has. But I think that the attack on voting rights and what's happening right now with redistricting is incredibly serious. And I've said this often, but the response from our state and our governor should have been that Level of action should have happened everywhere immediately. And that level of intensity, and I don't think we saw it everywhere. And Republicans are always going to have that level of intensity. They're always going to push hard, go all the way. We're seeing what's happening now again in South Carolina. I mean, they are pushing. And so I think we are going to win the majority. I think it's going to be hard and a big fight. And I think that redistricting makes it infinitely more difficult. And I also worry about not just redistricting this year, but in 28, because whatever they don't do in 26, they're going to do in 28. And so we've got to make sure that when we win the House this fall, that we hold it. Because at the end of the day we're going to pass a lot of great policy, hopefully something we can get through when we're in the House. Are we going to have the Senate? I hope we have a shot at it, but we need the presidency in 28. We have got to get to a place where we hold the White House and the Congress so we can actually make real change in this country and reverse some of the horrors of Trump.
- [59:22]
Katherine Rampel
And so what's the answer to that? Is that maximum redistricting in all of the other blue states turn Illinois into a computer chip or is it trying to find the Thomas Massie of redistricting to try to get some compromise bill passed? And it's kind of almost impossible to imagine Trump signing some sort of anti gerrymandering law. So I don't think there is any other solution than maximum warfare. Right?
- [59:45]
Robert Garcia
Maximum. I think maximum aggressive warfare has to be it. And, and it has to also be something coming from the states. And so look, when you have had governors in blue states not excited about redistricting, I think that's a disservice not just to your state, but to the country and democracy. This is bigger than how we might feel about redistricting. In California we had an independent commission. I supported it. I didn't want to redistrict, but we had to get it done. And so we look at California, we may have to go back and redistrict again.
- [60:18]
Katherine Rampel
51 to 1, baby. Look.
- [60:20]
Robert Garcia
And I think that people are prepared to do whatever it takes to stop the Trump agenda and to stop what's happening right now with the extreme right. So I think we gotta get it done.
- [60:29]
Katherine Rampel
Speaking of Maxwell warfare coming from the other side, news out today, JD Vance and his so called Fraud commission or whatever he's doing. He's the fraud czar for Democratic fraud. For fraud. I guess let me put it this way. He's a fraud czar where he looks into fraud. Unless you've donated to the Donald Trump campaign and then you get a pardon. Actually, who knows, you might get honored in the ballroom. But the latest move is pretty shocking where they're looking into denying California Medicaid funds because of accusations about Medicaid fraud in California. And I kind of see this as of a piece with the gerrymandering war where they're going to step it up even more. And it's not just that they're going to try to cut out representation in red states, but in blue states they're going to try to deny citizens that didn't vote for Trump Vance access to services.
- [61:20]
Robert Garcia
Well, and I think where Vance and Trump get it wrong is that a lot of the folks that they're denying services to actually voted for them. You're talking about oftentimes working class whites in communities that voted for Trump, Trump that are some of the highest users of government assistance. And so that is something that I hope folks see that are these kind of Trump voters in communities across the country that they're being impacted. This attack on essentially on healthcare in California is really serious. And we're talking about people, some of the most working class, they're low income folks, they need access. This fraud stuff is complete bullshit. Look, any government or private entity, anyone, whether it's federal, local, private company, you're always fighting fraud and waste, always. There's always gonna be mistakes made. There's always gonna be someone trying to cheat the system and you gotta take it on as you go. What you shouldn't do is for a small problem that will always exist somehow eliminate enormous amounts of services for people that really need it. The tax on snap, for example, or food assistance. Is there fraud in food assistance? Of course. Just like there's fraud in any large. At Microsoft or at the largest companies in the Trump Corporation. In the Trump Corporation.
- [62:37]
Katherine Rampel
A lot of fraud there.
- [62:38]
Robert Garcia
But you.
- [62:40]
Katherine Rampel
I think that they sold cell phones to a bunch of people that never got them. For example, tennis shoes, cell phones.
- [62:44]
Robert Garcia
Don't forget the Trump Bibles.
- [62:46]
Katherine Rampel
Yeah, it might be something for JD to look into.
- [62:47]
Robert Garcia
Exactly. And so I think that this idea that we're going to punish the working poor because there are shysters out there, I think is disgusting.
- [62:57]
Katherine Rampel
Same. Let's say that the gavel is taken back. Let's say that their attempts to fuck with the midterms are unsuccessful. You're in charge next January. There's so much fraud, there's so much corruption. There's so much shit to look into. There's not enough time in the day for you. I hope that you're not a big sleeper. What's at the top of the list for you?
- [63:17]
Robert Garcia
Yeah, top of the list is a real investigation on Jeffrey Epstein, where we have actually access to all the documents, subpoenas. And I really, having met now so many of the survivors in conversations, one on one, in person, I feel very committed to ensuring that there is justice for them and that there are criminal prosecutions of the men that cause the abuse. So that's going to be important, and we've got to get the job done there and do right the way by them. The second one is Trump family corruption. Look, this is the most corrupt administration and family in American history. They're running this some kind of criminal operation. The fact that Jared Kushner gets $2 billion from the Saudis when he walks out of the White House, that the Trump boys do, you know.
- [64:01]
Katherine Rampel
Can we just pause on Jared for a second? Do you know when the last time Jared Kushner testified before Congress was? I Googled that this morning. Do you know?
- [64:08]
Robert Garcia
No, because I can't even imagine it actually happened.
- [64:11]
Katherine Rampel
Yeah, he did. I guess. 2022.
- [64:13]
Robert Garcia
Yeah, it's been a long time.
- [64:16]
Katherine Rampel
What? I mean, he's taking money from the Saudis, and he's the point person on our diplomacy in the Iran war, and he's on the take from all kinds of interests, and we don't even know. We don't even know where he's getting his money from. We don't know anything. It's crazy that he hasn't testified in front of Congress.
- [64:36]
Robert Garcia
Crazy. And of course, the administration would argue that he doesn't have an official government job.
- [64:42]
Katherine Rampel
He's on background Axios, as a senior American official. Seems like a government job to me. Negotiating the end of the Iran war
- [64:49]
Robert Garcia
and benefiting and getting enormous amounts of money, billions of dollars, for this investment fund that he runs. Who's giving him God knows what.
- [64:56]
Katherine Rampel
Who's giving him the money? Besides the Saudis? Other people.
- [64:58]
Robert Garcia
Well, there's been no investment. And by the way. Right. The Saudis have actually made zero return on their investment directly, indirectly. I'm sure they're benefiting plenty. And so the level of Trump corruption with Kushner, with the Trump sons, who basically fly in or fly with their dad when he's doing diplomacy, Eric's Going to China. Eric's going to China. Well, I'm sure we'll see a Trump Hotel there pretty soon, and they'll be announced in the next few months. And so the real estate deals that are happening, this crypto scheme, which is, like, insane. I'm not sure there's ever been a bigger level of corruption by an American president than basically opening up.
- [65:38]
Katherine Rampel
There definitely is not, no. I mean, Jimmy Carter sold his peanut farm.
- [65:41]
Robert Garcia
Peanut farm. Opening up, basically this account where infinite amounts of money just get poured in. And with no record of who's giving all this money to the president, we still don't know.
- [65:54]
Katherine Rampel
And we know some of them because they've gotten pardons. So we learned that, you know, Justin
- [65:57]
Robert Garcia
sun and CZ, and now there's this IRN. Now he's gonna get this $10 billion from the federal government and the IRS. So the amount of Trump family corruption, like, to the question is, I think, key to our work, along with, like, abuses at ICE and abuses at HHS and so on.
- [66:14]
Katherine Rampel
So the pushback you get is, well, they're not going to testify. They're not going to give you any more Epstein files. They don't care. And you're dealing with this right now with the question of Bondi, whether she's going to testify or not. She's ducking subpoenas. How do you guys think you're going to address that?
- [66:28]
Robert Garcia
Well, that shouldn't stop us from trying really hard. Right. I think what we've shown on the committee is even in the minority, like, we push really hard and we get some shit done. Every subpoena that we've had in front of us, every interview, every piece of paper and email has been because we have fought, used public attention, got the public to join us, and we pulled one or two Republicans, whether it was Massie or whether it was Mace or whoever, to go along. And so I think we're gonna have to continue that same approach. We're gonna make the strong requests and there's no compliance. What I tell the folks is you are going to be in front of us at some point and either do it voluntarily, do the right thing, because when we get to the point where we actually can force that testimony, it's going to be infinitely worse. And what we're not going to do. Jim, one more thing. One of my. Not annoyances, but oftentimes I hear from folks in the party or whatever that we're gonna move on. Like, when we get. When we in the majority, it's time to move forward. And we're gonna have this forward looking agenda. That's fine. We're gonna have a forward looking agenda, but there has to be accountability. And if we just move on and don't spend time actually saying this shit is actually really fucked up. And we've gotta show people that there has to be accountability. People have to be accountable for the crimes they committed. I don't think we can move on. I think this is a moment where there has to be accountability.
- [67:55]
Katherine Rampel
Great. I love that there are a couple hundred other members of Congress they can focus on going forward and you can have the account trust and accountability reconciliations are.
- [68:03]
Robert Garcia
That's exactly, I feel is part of our role.
- [68:05]
Katherine Rampel
That's good. Here's just one little thing on this for me is I don't know whether Jared Kushner will come before Don Jr. Or what they'll do, but they are in business with a lot of people right now. And I think that that is what would be my strategy. Yeah, Going to Justin sun, going to the companies that have put Don Jr. On the board and they'll come testify. And it's like, not to compliment Trey Gowdy, but I mean, it's the Hillary, it's the Benghazi thing. The craziest thing is that the Jim Comey letter about the Clinton emails along a long, weird string of oversight started at the Benghazi hearings. And so you just don't know what you're gonna uncover. And there's gonna be a lot of shit for you guys to uncover.
- [68:55]
Robert Garcia
So get on it and we're on it.
- [68:58]
Katherine Rampel
Let's fight about California for a second and then we'll let you go. This governor's race is a shit show. It's a total shit show. And I don't understand why we're at. You've endorsed Katie Porter. I guess why don't we start there, maybe make the case for why Katie Porter.
- [69:11]
Robert Garcia
Well, look, first let me just say I think that there's a couple folks that are running that would be good governors. And so Katie was the first person to endorse me when I ran for Congress. My first supporter. We actually shared neighboring communities and overlapping cities. When I got to Congress, besides being my strongest supporter, she was immediately a mentor on oversight. And when I got to the oversight committee, I honestly saw what she was doing. And the way she'd grill CEOs, the way she fought really hard. And I try to model a lot of what I do in oversight off of what she taught me as a true mentor. And so for me, the decision to support Katie was not hard. But look, I think I've known Secretary Becerra, Tom Steyer. We've got candidates. We're not sure. This is a very fluid race. Who's gonna win? At the end of the day, we're gonna support whoever the Democratic nominee is. We're gonna get behind.
- [70:03]
Katherine Rampel
I will say about Katie Porter and the Ezra Klein town hall they had over the weekend. I'll put this link in the show notes. He asked her about housing stuff, which I think is the biggest issue in California, among others. And I was pretty impressed with her answer. A little less so. Javier Becerra. And I'm like the mayor of San Jose, but my issue with all of that.
- [70:23]
Robert Garcia
You like Matt?
- [70:24]
Katherine Rampel
Yeah, I like Matt.
- [70:24]
Robert Garcia
Yeah, I like Matt, too. Look, I think I know that some of my party have problems. Problems with Matt. He is a good mayor. I was mayor of my community, long standing relationship. Got to know him in San Jose. What I like about Matt is that we have to be a party that also embraces technology in the future and we can't just turn our back on innovation and tech. And so I think that he understands that and he's a viable candidate.
- [70:50]
Katherine Rampel
What I like about Matt is he was the only one on stage in the debate when asked about the current governor that didn't just talk about how great he is. And there's things to like about Gavin have given him nothing but love about what he did on the redistricting effort. He's a good fighter. Katie Porter, the person you endorsed set called his leadership as governor is bold. And I just like, people are leaving California and California is taxed higher than any other state. The services are not the highest of any state. It's really expensive. It's hard to be a working and middle class person in California. It's not all Gavin Newsom's fault. But to me, if you're running to run California, I want somebody that's like, we need to change things and make things better. We don't need a status quo governor for the state. And that to me, is the issue I have with some of the main candidates running for governor on the Democratic side. And it's also kind of my issue with Gavin as a presidential candidate. It's like he's good at the tactical stuff, but it's a lot of baggage in your state. What's your pushback on that?
- [71:53]
Robert Garcia
I disagree with some of that. First, a lot of the issues that have existed in California have existed for decades. And anyone running for governor should want to make changes, change, period. So I agree with that.
- [72:02]
Katherine Rampel
For example, you've been constructing a Railway for 18 years. So that's been happening for a long time. You have like a couple of tracks down very long time.
- [72:10]
Robert Garcia
And having the single largest state in the country, you're going to have oversized challenges. And so all of what you said is true. And the area where I think as a state we have failed has been on housing, on housing. We have pushed hard. But it's not only in California an issue of the governor. We've had cities, we've had the legislature, we've had the counties that have all essentially created this NIMBY system where we haven't produced enough housing. And so the governor has pushed and I actually credit the governor for going after cities that have actually not produced enough housing. He has ensured that the economy in California stays strong. He has pushed, I think, bold progressive ideas. I think he has actually been an excellent governor. I think he'll be an excellent candidate for president if he runs. You're smiling. This is my. And at the end of the day, the thing I love about our governor is he is obsessed with winning and he has won every fucking election.
- [73:07]
Katherine Rampel
I like that too.
- [73:08]
Robert Garcia
He pushes really hard against the legislature. He's independent and he is really smart. And he's not just out there pushing ideas because this group or that group, he believes something and he pushes really, really hard and he wants to win. Look at redistricting. How many governors, I'll name him zero in this country on the Democratic side did what he did because he's obsessed, he's obsessed with winning for the American public, for California. And I have over time learned to. I just really respect him. To be honest. I think he's a great governor. And we'll see what happens with the
- [73:48]
Katherine Rampel
presidential total shout out to him on that. I will say just using it as a progressive coded issue. As an example, I saw this chart this week where Texas has passed California in production of solar and green energy stuff. Because the NIMBYISM isn't just about the houses, it's about building other things. And it's just like if a blue state can't build green energy and if working class people can't afford to live in a blue state, then something's wrong in the blue state and we need a reform and we need something fix it.
- [74:18]
Robert Garcia
I don't disagree with you. So. And I think, and I think the governor would will say this as well. Our biggest challenge has been housing production and we the the burden that we have Put on housing production, which is not just the government, but you have. You have a legislature. We have allowed, unfortunately, our love of being an environmental leader in many cases, to stifle housing production. The reality is it's just too expensive to build housing in California. And our land use policy is completely up. We don't allow enough housing. It's not dense enough. We don't invest enough in transit. And so those that have been our biggest issue in California, and it's one we have to continue to fix.
- [74:53]
Katherine Rampel
Do you get to have any fun? I don't know. Do you get to go to Hunters in Palm Springs or Hamburger Mary's in Long Beach?
- [74:59]
Robert Garcia
I like both Hunters and Hamburgers.
- [75:02]
Katherine Rampel
What do you do? Do you go to Hunters? I've been to Hunters in Palm Springs. Yeah. It's not like Palm Springs isn't really. Palm Springs isn't my go to spot, but, you know, I went there for my buddy's 40th about a year ago. We had a good time. I don't know what else. Are you doing anything? Are you getting out? California's beautiful. California's beautiful, you know?
- [75:20]
Robert Garcia
Yeah.
- [75:21]
Katherine Rampel
Are you doing anything or are you just sitting at your computer thinking about what kind of what the oversight. What oversight we're gonna do, and maybe that might be the right answer for you.
- [75:28]
Robert Garcia
I do sit, actually, most of the time, sitting around. What are we doing? Oversight. But I also think it's important that we're like, we're regular people and we do fun things. And of course, I try to different things. Long Beach Pride's coming up in just a few days. And so I'll be there and I'll be enjoying it.
- [75:41]
Katherine Rampel
What's the best gay bar in Long Beach?
- [75:42]
Robert Garcia
Ooh, my favorite gay bar in Long beach for a long time has been a place called the Sweetwater.
- [75:47]
Katherine Rampel
Okay.
- [75:47]
Robert Garcia
It's a little neighborhood bar on Broadway in the Gayborne. Great place, jukebox, old school vibes. It's probably my favorite spot.
- [75:55]
Katherine Rampel
I'll have to check it out. Robert Garcia, thanks for coming by the office. All right. I appreciate you very much.
- [75:58]
Robert Garcia
Thank you.
- [75:59]
Katherine Rampel
All right. How good was that? Thanks so much. My colleague Katherine Rampel and to Congressman Robert Garcia. We'll be back tomorrow. I'll be back in my home studio. Hope to see you all then.
- [76:23]
Robert Garcia
From the city with skinny kept strong heat.
- [76:25]
Jim VandeHei
North side Long Beach.
- [76:27]
Robert Garcia
North side Long Beach.
- [76:28]
Katherine Rampel
The Borg podcast is brought to you through thanks to the work of lead producer Katie Cooper, associate producer Ansley Skipper, and with video editing by Katie Lutz and audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown with Verbocare.
- [76:41]
Robert Garcia
Help is always ready before, during and after your stay.
- [76:46]
Jim VandeHei
We've planned for the plot twists, so
- [76:49]
Robert Garcia
support is always available because a great trip starts with peace of mind this
- [76:55]
Jim VandeHei
summer, don't squeeze in.
- [76:57]
Robert Garcia
Spread out.
- [76:59]
Jim VandeHei
Find homes big enough for your whole
- [77:01]
Robert Garcia
guest list on vrbo.
- [77:03]
Jim VandeHei
That's vacation rentals done right, Book your stay now.