← The Bulwark Podcast
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- [00:01]
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Tim Miller
See why 4 out of 5 employers
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David Frum
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- [00:54]
ZipRecruiter Announcer
ZipRecruiter.com Zip ZipRecruiter.com Zip finding great candidates to hire can be like, well, trying to find a needle in a haystack. Sure, you can post your job to some job board, but then all you can do is hope the right person comes along. Which is why you should try ZipRecruiter for free at ZipRecruiter.com Zip ZipRecruiter doesn't depend on candidates finding you. It finds them for you. Its powerful technology identifies people with the right experience and actively invites them to apply to your job. You get qualified candidates fast. So while other companies might deliver a lot of hay, ZipRecruiter finds you what you're looking for. The needle in the Haystack.
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Tim Miller
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David Frum
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Tim Miller
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- [02:11]
Tim Miller
Hello, welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Delighted to welcome back to the show one of our faves. He's a staff writer at the Atlantic and host of the David Frum Podcast. It's our friend David Frum. What's up, man?
- [02:23]
David Frum
Thank you, Tim. Good to be on home field today.
- [02:26]
Tim Miller
Well, you hosted me on your show where we Hashed out whether I'd gone too native with my friends on the left and whether I'm too much of a code pink peacenik now. So I want to continue that conversation towards the end of this podcast. But first, we got to get to the news, and I'm here in Texas, and we have learned that. That Walker, Texas Ranger himself, Chuck Norris, has moved on from this mortal coil. We send our sympathies to him and his family. I'm wondering if you have any life experiences with Chuck Norris or his fellow Magas.
- [03:00]
David Frum
The first time I became aware of you, and I don't mean this in a disrespectful way, to Chuck Norris, was you were battling on television an extremely small Trump supporter. I'd heard of you by reputation, but I had never seen this. He was in a booster chair because you have such an affable manner. I'd never seen the knife underneath the sleeve. And he called you at one point a fake conservative. And you said, if I'm the fake, why are you sitting on a booster seat? And it was just the walls came in. Chuck Norris, obviously a great American, a great star, but it is worth remembering how many of the Trump supporters like him, like Kash Patel, are extremely small people. And you were the first to point out this. This trend.
- [03:36]
Tim Miller
Well, I appreciate that. I appreciate the recognition on that. I don't. I never met Chuck Norris in person. How we was he like a lot.
- [03:43]
David Frum
A lot of movie stars. And the camera likes small people. I don't know quite why that is. Maybe they have better. But there's something. The camera does love its actors to be on the small side.
- [03:54]
Tim Miller
Yeah. It is frustrating for those.
- [03:55]
David Frum
That's why you're not a movie star. That's why you're not.
- [03:57]
Tim Miller
I know. Trust me. I always look at the photos of myself on Instagram and I'm like, I'm handsomer than this, am I not? Let's get on to some more important news. I want to, as mentioned, kind of back into Iran and hash out my new peace necturn. But first, want to go through the Trump crazies of the week, because there's so much to discuss. I guess we'll start with the coins. There's news yesterday that the Treasury Department is hurtling forward with minting what will now be three different coins with Trump's picture on them. A dollar, one that will circulate, and two commemorative 24k gold coins where he's standing behind the table looking mad.
- [04:39]
David Frum
Yes. You know, if we ever get to write this chapter of history. And if this chapter of history comes to a less grim ending than sometimes it looks like we'll have a happier ending. I think one of the verdicts of future history may be that what saved America was that Donald Trump could never tell the difference between the substance of power and the image of power. If you're doing a serious program of consolidation of power in an authoritarian way, you don't do something as gaudy and shameless and un American as putting a living president's image on the coins. That just gets everybody upset. It creates opposition to the whole project in a way that might not be there if you just focused on realities. And maybe it seems to be true that as Trump's hold on the realities of power falters or weakens a little bit, that he gets more consumed by the ballroom, the Kennedy center, and his image on these coins. I mean, it's obviously un American. It's arguably illegal. Although the New York Times had an interesting story about some of the loopholes they're using because the coins are commemorative, maybe that they don't come under the rules governing currency, but it just seems a provocation that a wiser authoritarian would avoid.
- [05:49]
Tim Miller
Yeah, I felt a little bit better about that notion that maybe Trump would focus on his true passions, like the marble armrests at the Kennedy center two weeks ago. But it does seem like, unfortunately, he's able to juggle some catastrophic choices home and abroad while also minting himself coins.
- [06:10]
David Frum
Well, one more point about this that is sort of a sign of daylight breaking through, which is it doesn't look like he's going to be able to protect Corey Lewandowski and Kristi Noem now understood that their operation was distinct from the Trump operation, and that's one of the reasons they're in trouble. It's like the Sopranos. They forgot to put the cash in the envelope for Tony and ran their own grift without telling Tony about it. And as everyone who remembers you get whacked. But it will raise the question if law is allowed to take its course. If Pam Bondi doesn't protect Lewandowski and Noem, if taking bribes at DHS in the millions and tens of millions is wrong, why is taking bribes at the White House in the hundreds of millions and billions?
- [06:52]
Tim Miller
Okay, that is a good question. And I guess a subtext to that, given the coin news is would taking the bribes be okay if the bribes were all on the new Trump minted $1 coin or Trump crypto? Trump crypto. The DHS thing is interesting. I like your positive news there. I'm hoping for accountability for Corey Lewandowski. We have a new thing at the end of the Bulwark Live show. So we let people do a rant and they can choose whether it's something they're hopeful for, something that they hate. Yeah, something that got really big applause last night was hope that maybe there will be criminal accountability for someone and maybe that man will be stankbreath Corey Lewandowski. And so I, I, I'm with you on that. The concern, the other side of that coin to brutalize the metaphor, is what is replacing them at dhs. That's another big news this week. You got Mark Wayne Mullen coming in there. He seems just kind of like a masculine Christie gnome. I'm not sure exactly the differences between the two of them.
- [07:53]
David Frum
Well, can we pause there? Because I don't have to get too far to the Iran news. The United States is now engaged in a global war spanning from the Caspian to the Mediterranean to the Indian Ocean against the world's leading state sponsor of terrorism. So designated year after year by the U.S. state Department. The leading state sponsored terrorism uses a lot of terrorism. And Iran has a long history of activating terror networks all over the world, including in the United States. So you would think it would be for the administration leading the war a matter of vital concern to have a non bozo as head of the Department of Homeland Security and maybe also a non bozo at the FBI. But while telling everyone that one of the reasons that the United States needs to fight Iran is the threat of terrorism. How unserious about terrorism are you if you put this team of bozos in charge of defending the homeland against terror attacks?
- [08:44]
Tim Miller
Literally, you were there. The point of the creation of the Department of Homeland Security was in the wake of the terror attack. They don't even pretend as if Markwain Mullen has any expertise or background or ability in that way. They've now refashioned the department entirely around their immigration plans and their deportation agenda. And as you mentioned, with cash. Just want to pull this up here during a testimony, I guess it was two days ago now, this was Wednesday. Congressman Cohen from Tennessee was asking about the experts they had fired on Iran. And he says, the people you fired, they worked in counterintelligence on Iran, did they not? And Patel Cash replies, I'm taking at your word on that. And he's like, you're the director. You should know who the people you fired were. And that is the story. They fired these guys because they were caught up in the Trump classified documents case because among the documents that were in his bathroom at Mar a Lago was Iran war plans. And so since these guys, experts on Iran counterintelligence, got pulled into that, they've been fired. So just as you mentioned, across the board, whether it be FBI or dhs, they seem totally unserious about that domestic element of the potential fallout from the war.
- [09:57]
David Frum
So let me just remind people why the Department of Homeland Security was created. And maybe it wasn't a good idea. But here was the logic. Back in the Bush days when the 911 investigations were conducted, one of the things that was found was that the CIA had possessed a lot of the information, maybe sufficient information necessary to prevent the 911 attack, but the CIA had no operating ability to do anything about it. The FBI did have the operating ability to do something about it, but it didn't have the information. And the reason that they didn't have the information, it was not just a bureaucratic screw up. It's the CIA operates by one set of rules. It's an espionage agency. It doesn't have to respect civil liberties. It doesn't have to charge people and send them to prison. It just needs to know things. The FBI needs to charge people and send them to prison. And properly, in a constitutional democracy, you limit the knowledge that a police department has because they can't just go parroting around everything. But what do you do with international terrorism where the CIA is gathering information by one set of rules and the FBI needs to operationalize that by another set of rules. You didn't want to bring the CIA into dhs. It's not there. But you needed to create some kind of structure for coordinating all the information that was available to the United States government to protect the United States against terror attacks and other catastrophic threats. So that's the theory. And the people who were in charge of DHS were supposed to be serious homeland security protectors. And whatever you think about illegal immigration, and I probably more hawkish about it than you, it's a threat to the labor market. It's not a threat to anybody's safety. And DHS needs to have the mandate of American safety first. And that means competent, efficient, experienced counterterrorism, counter espionage professionals, not, as I say, the team of bozos.
- [11:39]
Tim Miller
I kind of hate to do this. I feel like sometimes we're in this world, we're talking the podcast. It's like the Democrats are the only people with agency and yet they're also the only people with no power. There is A question right now in this moment about how the Democrats handle this DHS funding fight, especially in the context of the war. A less important priority, but real something that's affecting people is tsa. Most importantly, the people that work for TSA that aren't getting paid. But also it's getting worse and worse if you're trying to travel, that has, you know, various impacts on the economy and the country. The Democrats offered, you know, just funding tsa. You know, now this is all wrapped up in the Mark Wayne Mullen confirmation process as well. Like, how would you recommend they handle this given the context of the, of the threats?
- [12:22]
David Frum
Well, this again is going to anticipate something you wanted to say for later given.
- [12:26]
Tim Miller
Let's just do it. We'll just do it. We'll just do it. We don't need to go onto my agenda, David. We can talk, we can just kind of hang out and we'll come back. We'll save the MMA for the end. Okay. I wanted to do the MMA fight at the lawn first to give people a little appetizer, but instead it can be a dessert.
- [12:41]
David Frum
So the Democrats are conducting the DHS fight as if the Iran war is not suddenly a gender one item in Washington. Obviously the president has done something fantastically irresponsible with Homeland Security, as he's already done something fantastically irresponsible with the FBI and as he did something fantastically irresponsible by naming Joe Kent to be counterterrorism person. This, this person with gallant war record, personal tragedy history. But it, whatever the reason, he is clearly mentally unstable with crazy views and should not be anywhere near the government of the United States, much less a national security portfolio. So those are all crazy irresponsible things. How do you press the President on that point? You have to say, you know, the Iran war is on. The Iran war is a fact. I think you have to get to his right on national security. Say, Mr. President, you started a war of your own volition against the world's leading state sponsored terrorism and you are leaving the homeland naked to Iranian terror attack and Iranian terror cells because you want to send a lot of guys who do roofing to prison or deport them. That's your priority, is deporting roofers. You are leaving the country naked to terrorism. And I think sometimes Democrats need to ask themselves if the tables were turned, if you had some complete, I don't know who the Democratic Trump would be, but somebody as irresponsible as that playing games with national security for some completely unrelated Agenda in the middle of a war against Iran, what would the Republicans do? Think about that strategy. The next terror attack will be the fault of Kash Patel because he's an idiot and an expert at chugging beer in locker rooms, no doubt. But maybe chugging beer in locker rooms is not the skill set you need when you're.
- [14:22]
Tim Miller
He's designed his own shoe. He has a personal new shoe that he has designed. I don't know if you caught that
- [14:28]
David Frum
in a very small size, but meanwhile, the homeland is naked. But that means you have to take on board the reality that there is really a war against this leading state sponsor of terror and not in any way either undersell the danger from Iran and not in any way put your fingers in your ears and say, la, la, la. We can't hear that there's a war on, because whether you like the war or not approve the decision to start it, it's on.
- [14:51]
Tim Miller
So let's think about that in the context of the funding fight. Then how do you get to the right of them? Because there's, you know, you can imagine various different strategies that could be put forth. You know, I don't know, like, you can imagine a hawkish Democratic Party going to them and saying, we're going to give you more money for counterterrorism here. But there is, you know, one catch. You have to, I don't know, take off the masks of ICE agents or something. You know, we're just spitballing like, there are a million things that they could do. The other way to look at this is continuing the fight, which is to say, no, like, we're not gonna fund this agency as long as you haven't made these concessions. How do you think about it?
- [15:30]
David Frum
The hazard of approach two of saying we're not going to fund the agency is it is not impossible that there's an outbreak of lucidity on the Republican side, because the strategy I just recommend that Democrats use against Republicans is available for Republicans to use against Democrats.
- [15:46]
Tim Miller
And John Cornyn basically did this. There was this exchange. It was here, I'm in Austin. It was, Greg Kazar is a progressive House guy, crashed one of John Cornyn's press conferences outside the airport. And Greg was saying, basically, it's your fault that we're not funding these guys. We offered to pay them. And Cornyn shot back him and he goes, you want more terrorist attacks? We had this terrorist attack on 6th street in Austin. That exchange happened, right?
- [16:09]
David Frum
Well, that's the obvious play. Just imagine Karl Rover running the Republican Party right Now, and you had a Republican Party that was about winning elections, not about stealing as much money as it can before the roof falls in in November. That's what he would do and it would work. And by the way, it has the merit, as Henry Kissinger used to say about when he would offer a line of argument, he said he would go, this argument has this advantage, this advantage. And it is the further additional merit of being true. So this has the further additional method of being true. The country is very vulnerable right now. And Iran has a long history of conducting terror attacks, more in Europe than in the Western Hemisphere. But in Buenos aires, in Washington D.C. a couple of years ago, they nearly assassinated the Saudi ambassador on his way to dinner at a popular restaurant here. The British apprehended Iranian agents casing out the oldest synagogue in London. You have to be prepared for this to be an Iranian tactic. And the DHS is unfunded. Somebody needs and somebody will make an issue out of that. And the strategy is not to preserve the non funding. The strategy is to get the department funded, but with rules, with the right priorities and with the terrorism first approach. And by the way, the FBI is part of this. And Kash Patel needs to be in the sights of someone who not just is a crook and a, a time waster, but as someone who is leaving the country naked to its enemies.
- [17:27]
Tim Miller
And the counter to that is just that, like, yes, the war in Iran is a fact. The other thing that is a fact is that Donald Trump got elected and put in a bunch of clowns to run all of these agencies. And they've run it in a way that is lawless with regards to dhs, but also incompetent across the board. And why do you want to be complicit and giving these clowns and incompetence additional resources?
- [17:54]
David Frum
Because there's a government. There's a government because you have to. There are just so many points where Democrats could make this case. For example, in 2022, when Russia escalated its war against Ukraine, Russia's the one of the world's largest energy producers in the world. Russia and Ukraine are the largest food producers in the world. They created a huge shock to energy and food markets. I wrote about this a lot at the time of the Atlantic. And through an amazing success of coordinated response between the United States, Europe, Japan and other friends, that challenge was blunted. And what the Russians hoped would be an economic disaster did not turn into one. But one of the means used was that President Biden authorized the largest release of oil from the Strategic Petroleum Reserve in American history. And that was a good call. That was the right thing to do in 2022. But in 2024 and 2025, with these amazing low fuel prices that President Trump kept bragging about, that was the time to go refill. And he didn't do it. He didn't do it. And so we need to do more releases. But had it been topped up in 2025, the United States would be in a much better position. So there is a national security argument always against this administration, which is, and by the way, one of the things that you would want to top up is some aid for Ukraine, because Trump keeps saying that the reason there aren't enough weapons, apparently is that so many were given away to Ukraine. Well, he was selling weapons in 2025, not giving anything. And not again, not stockpiling yet a year and a half. Why didn't he stockpile?
- [19:23]
Tim Miller
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David Frum
Well, the Denmark story is the most shocking and startling. And this is a rumor that those of us who are interested in the Arctic Canada had been hearing since January. But last week it was confirmed by Danish news agencies with good sourcing to the Danish government and quotes on the record. It had not been on the record before. Greenland is of course Danish territory, part of the Kingdom of Denmark. It has substantial autonomy and the Danes and Donald Trump in January really ramped up a threat to annex it by force. And so the Danish plan was obviously Denmark cannot defend Greenland against the United States. Their plan was to send their best soldiers to Greenland to die, to be killed. And their hope was that if the United States shed Danish blood, it would so shame the United States. They hoped they had that sufficient confidence in the United States to believe that Americans are still capable of shame for murdering allies or killing allies, that it would stop the war. But that was their plan. Blow up the airfields. Because of the frozen conditions there, you can't land off the airfields. You'd have to use the airfields, blow up the airfields and then have sound
- [23:14]
Tim Miller
like there's a big pasture where you can land the plane right Exactly.
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David Frum
And then have the soldiers there. And their mission was take casualties and shame the Americans. And there were going to be French troops as well. And there, I think, some British observers. So in January, the allies were preparing for a NATO war against an American invasion of NATO territory. And for the United States now to say, oh, our allies are so ungrateful, they were preparing for you to kill them.
- [23:38]
Tim Miller
Yeah.
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David Frum
So there's a reason. There's a little, they're a little testy.
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Tim Miller
There's the old Brad Todd line. Trump's opponents take him literally, but you have to take him seriously. But not literally, unfortunately. If you're discussing an invasion of a NATO ally, the allies have to take the American president at his word and at least prepare for that rather than try to decide when he's speaking out of his ass.
- [24:01]
David Frum
And by the way, it's not clear this is one part of the story we don't know is whether in fact the deterrence worked. We don't know how advanced American plans were in January. It's very possible that had the Danes not done that, there would have been a seizure of Greenland territory and that the threat of not having runways and having to kill Danes did deter the United States. We're waiting to find out that piece of the story. I don't want to assert it as true or not true, I don't know. But that's the question you have is how close was the United States and did Denmark successfully deter the United States?
- [24:33]
Tim Miller
So that's the Danes. And then as mentioned with the Japanese Prime Minister in this week, and in addition to just the disrespect to the allies, not giving them a heads up about what we were doing, not engaging them, all these countries are going to suffer economic consequences as well in a very real way. And to me, we'll see. I don't have a crystal ball, but you'd have to imagine that will exacerbate these relationships even further. I mean, they've been insulted, they've been threatened to be invaded, and now Trump has done a military action without their buy in that is going to have real ramifications for them domestically.
- [25:11]
David Frum
Everyone's aware of the price of oil and the price of gasoline because there's one global oil price. But now it's worth remembering that the actual flow of oil, 80% of the oil from the Persian Gulf, goes to Asia. The United States is now again the largest producer of oil in the world. North America, U.S. plus Canada, produce about 25% of all the world's oil. And even more of the world's natural gas. And the United States imports a little from Canada. It imports a little from some other places because there are particular kinds of oil that don't come from the United States. And in turn, America exports oil, but America is a net exporter, so you're going to have higher prices. But there's no risk of a supply shortage in the United States. But in Asia, South Korea, Japan, China too, there are real risks of outright shortage because the tankers that are expected and that are not making their way are on their way to Asian markets in 80% of cases. So the United States is putting a special burden on its Asian allies. And that's a moment that calls for language of sympathy to stir solidarity, because what you're doing, ultimately afraid of, is that maybe not Japan, maybe not South Korea, but people who like you less like Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam, countries that are important to American strategic planning, but are not really friends of the United States. You guys are just too unreliable, too flaky, and you never think about our interests, so why should we think about yours?
- [26:28]
Tim Miller
That's the first rung. I mean, I think you have to start having some hard conversations in the countries that are actually allies. I mean, you saw this from Mark Carney in Canada, starting to have these conversations about whether, you know, rebalancing the relationship and how much America is relied on versus China is something that is being considered right? Or do you think that's empty threat?
- [26:52]
David Frum
No, it is not at all an empty threat. But it's necessary to understand what the threat is. It's not that Canada is going to become a Chinese ally. Geography is geography. I spent a lot of time on this question. The Canadian mood has historically been the United States is this intimate partner, and the Americans sometimes drag Canada into ventures where Canada would rather not be, like a trade war with China over electric cars. But when they say go, you have to go, because they do so much for you. And there's a kind of integration at the highest levels of government. I think one of the things that Carney was saying is it's not we're breaking off from the United States to realign with China. He's saying, the way I think about the 21st century is there are going to be three superpowers, the United States, China and India. And the United States is a little more benign than China and India, but not dramatically more benign. And so our goal is we'll always be closer to the United States than China and India, but we have to have options in a way that Canadians never thought about optionality before the Indians carried out an assassination on Canadian soil. Admittedly of somebody who deserved it. Okay. Or probably allegedly deserved it, but still.
- [27:56]
Tim Miller
Can I just get two sentences on that? Because I'm not aware of the Indian assassination of Canada. I know the Saudis sent a team to Canada to try to kill one of MBS's political foes, but they got shut down by the Mounties at the border. Yeah.
- [28:08]
David Frum
So Canada has a bad history of turning its eye to diaspora terror fundraising. There's a deal. If you're a Tamil, if you're a Sikh, if you're a Hezbollah, and you fundraising. If you don't conduct any operations in Canada, but you raise money in Canada for operations elsewhere, Canada will sort of look away. And this has been an especial problem with Sikh terrorism. In the 1980s, there was some Sikh terrorism inside Canada, but since then, there's been a lot of fundraising. But no. And the Indians have complained and complained and complained. And finally, they murdered one of the alleged largest Sikh terror fundraisers in Canada. You know, he was allegedly a big terror fundraiser, and there was allegedly blood on his hands. But still, it's bad form. And the Chinese do even worse things, interfere in Canadian elections. They harass, intimidate, and kidnap sometimes Canadians of Chinese origin who speak out in ways that the Chinese state doesn't like. But. So what Carney is saying is, look, China and India, obviously bigger problems in the United States, but the Americans are also a threat. And so Canada needs. It's like a problem in geometry where you need to stay away from all three points of the triangle, the triangle of danger. But it used to be you wanted to be as close to that safety point, and it's no longer safety. That's what Carney's message was. Not that Canada's going to become China's ally.
- [29:33]
ZipRecruiter Announcer
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Tim Miller
See why 4 out of 5 employers
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David Frum
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- [31:14]
David Frum
Fantastic.
- [31:16]
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- [31:34]
Tim Miller
about the actual military engagement in Iran and the expanding war in the Middle East. Just a little baseline of how you think it's going. How do you think it's going so far?
- [31:46]
David Frum
I think there are two tracks, a military track and the political track. And I think the military track is going. And again, I'm not an expert on this, but in my impression the military track is going much, much better than you would gather from following most conventional American opinion. Whether legacy media or new media, the United States and Israel are successfully they have neutralized Iranian air defense. They are eliminating Iran's ability to do offensive attacks. Those attacks are becoming more ragged, more poorly aimed, and the Iranians are being pressed to do stupid things like shoot at everybody, including the Turks, whom they shouldn't be shooting at people they ought to be looking to make some kind of ally out of. They've made an enemy out of the Turks, they're making an enemy out of the Gulf states. And the Israelis in particular are destroying the security apparatus of the regime. But with These highly targeted attacks on checkpoints, on officials who have done monstrous crimes. So that part, I think, is succeeding. And although it's hard to see the resolution, if you look at one of those military matrixes and you say, where do you want to be on X Day? I think they would say everyone is completely satisfied with where they are. And whatever day of the war this is today, I guess it's day 22, something like that. It's the political track, and there are two political tracks. One is, where are we going? What's the goal? Trump's idea seems to be that you hit the Iranians enough and they negotiate. That puts all the initiative in the Iranian hands. All they have to do is not negotiate. And sooner or later, Trump gives up. Not the Israelis, but Trump. And the second problem is this is the bigger one. He has no permission structure. He has no authorization from Congress. He has no certainty that Congress will fund his war. He has no permission from the public. There is real economic pain, and it will get worse. And he has not told Americans it's coming. He has no permission from it, and his numbers will crater. And as first fuel and then food prices rise for a war that Americans do not understand, we're never consulted about, we're never informed of in advance, his political position, weak already, is going to crumble more. So I would say military progress, political trouble now, and worse trouble ahead.
- [33:46]
Tim Miller
Yeah, I guess I want to add a third vector, because I think that when the military success is being discussed, I take your point that in a lot of media, there is more skepticism and hostility to this for good reason. And so there's not a lot of focus on, like, if you're grading this as if it was a war game and it's, you know, number of leaders of the other side taken out, you know, number of missiles taken out. Right. Like that. The Israeli and the US Operation has been successful. But the other vector is kind of this quasi military geopolitical one, and, you know, which is a little bit different from just a pure politics. It's kind of this middle ground and thinking about, okay, well, when you started this operation, you knew that the Iranians were going to do something. Maybe they've been less effective at protecting their missile stockpile than you've thought. And so that part has gone well. But blowing up oil infrastructure all across the Middle east is causing very real problems geopolitically, for sure. And that, I think, has been the ability for the Strait of Cormuz to totally be shut down, rather than having little kerfuffles there is something that obviously they did not expect or want. You know, the, I guess if you have the stated goal of the nuclear program, again, I'm not an expert on this, but looking at, you know, various military experts that you've read, it doesn't feel like additional progress beyond what was made in last year has been made at preventing them, you know, from attaining a nuclear weapon. Danny Citron, Citrinowitz, you know, is a formerly IDF intel guy that had a pretty negative assessment essentially of what's been happening there. You know, again, if you're doing scoreboard counting, the military part has been well, but like the impact more geopolitically to me feels much more negative.
- [35:36]
David Frum
As an observer of the run up to the Iraq war, what were the most important mistakes made in 2003? And among them were never serious enough thought to what if we don't get the best case or even the mid case scenario? What if we get the worst case scenario? What does that look like and what happens then? And the second was, how do we plan for after the shooting stops or after formal military operations stop, what happens then? How do we get to a political resolution in Iraq? And both of those were very poorly planned. And there was a real failure, a refusal to think about worst case scenarios. And there was a joke that circulated at the time, how many Bush officials does it take to change a light bulb? And the answer is, what are you talking about? That light bulb is perfectly fine. What would anybody need to change it? And you're giving aid and comfort to terrorism if you even contemplate changing the light bulb. So Trump people looked at that record and said, you know what, they screwed up on those two counts. But like amateurs, we're going to show some professional refusal to think about worst case scenario. We're going to show them, you know, what happened when you put Kash Patel on the job of not thinking about things. How much not thinking can Cash Patel do? And turns out, you know, he could way more than Paul Wolfowitz.
- [36:45]
Tim Miller
Yeah, we're going to take that same mistake and add some megalomania to the top cult of personality.
- [36:52]
David Frum
When you read these stories saying they didn't plan for the Strait of Hormuz, I'm sure that the United States Navy, there's a whole floor of the building that has spent the past 50 years thinking about what happens if the Strait of Hormuz is closed. There's probably not a plan. They're probably eight plans, all kinds of options with cool names actually, pre Trump. So they're uncool names. But you have to prepare. You know, the Iranians might really do this. And Mr. President, have you considered which of those op plans you will choose? Have you consulted with the American people about how you will brace them for the shock to oil prices? It's going to. And he just said, I'm not thinking, I'm just going to assume they don't do it. Not because the Navy didn't think about it, but because he refused to consider the worst case or even the mid case scenario. And this is the most probable thing the Iranians would do. And they don't seem to have taken it seriously at all.
- [37:40]
Tim Miller
Yeah, I think there are two elements to that. Just really quick on the priming the, the country for all this stuff. And that is another just massive difference from the Iraq war. Right. And so the planning was not there for the worst or mid bad case scenario. And over time, obviously resentment built, anger belt. We could do a whole podcast series on all the ramifications of that. But in the initial months, people understood what the mission was or thought they did, or bought in on the state admission that isn't happening here. And so when you have these negative ramifications that are affecting people's lives tangibly and you can see them immediately, and then they ask themselves, well, wait a minute, why are we even doing this in the first place? I don't even understand what we're doing or what the point is of this. That I think puts them in even a worse position to try to navigate it.
- [38:32]
David Frum
And to add to that, they said last summer, President Trump struck out of the clear blue yonder the Iranian nuclear program. I don't think any American, or very few Americans would be sorry about that, although they might be troubled by the legalities of it. And then he said, mission accomplished. We did it. We obliterated the Iranian nuclear program. If you're worried about that, you don't think about it anymore. I did it. I solved it. Yay me. Why don't people, more people say thank you to me? No one ever says thank you to me, but I did it. You're welcome. I said, and I didn't consult Congress and I spent a lot of money, but I did it. Nine months later, the country's back. Why? Well, that thing I told you I did, I actually, I didn't. Sorry. So I told you not to think about anymore, but I now we're at a big war and the price of fuel is going up because I need to fight a ground war, which I think we're on. The way to fighting. Because even if it's just Carg island, that's still ground.
- [39:22]
Tim Miller
Yeah.
- [39:22]
David Frum
To fighting a ground war for something. I told. I promise you I had fixed already. And I never went to Congress. I didn't go to the U.N. you know, again, there's not a lot of Iraq war nostalgia out there. But I just want to remind people President Bush in 2003 got authorization from Congress and he had a whole series of UN Security Council resolutions against Iraq, and he went back to the UN to try to get another one. He failed. But there are abundant resolutions before then authorizing the United States and allies to enforce no nuclear weapons in Iraq. He put together some kind of political consensus and he had public approval on his side for a while. Then the war went wrong. And the wmd, everyone knows the story. And again, I don't cite this as here's a, a great success story, but just here is some show of institutional respect to the way war is fought in the United States.
- [40:13]
Tim Miller
And so then to the military, you mentioned this. So, you know, there's reporting in Axios this morning that very serious contemplation of sending in either an amphibious unit or helicopter unit. You know, they have different plans or options. Try to take this Kharg island, which is in the Strait of Hormuz, where there's a lot of Iranian energy assets, very risky type operation. And again, when you think about the potential negative outcomes for this, every day that the Strait of Hormuz is closed, there are all manner of unintended consequences down the pike. Some of the stuff we talked about with geopolitical, with our allies earlier also then the economic. We saw what a supply chain crisis does to the economy in 2022, and Joe Biden suffered the consequences. It's not just oil and gas, it's fertilizer, helium, bunch of stu. And then the potential for escalation. What happens if the operation doesn't go well? And you know, God forbid, additional troops die, et cetera, et cetera. So I mean, like, that's where we're at right now, which seems very precarious.
- [41:15]
David Frum
And let's say the operation does go well, because I'm sure like the Navy with the Strait of Hormuz, the Marines have been thinking about Kharg island NonStop again for 50 years.
- [41:22]
Tim Miller
Sure.
- [41:23]
David Frum
And they've probably been training for it and they're the Marines. So let's say it goes well, now what? Because the real ground troop question is going to be suppose you, as the Israelis seem intent on doing, do collapse this Hateful regime, which is doing additional hateful acts by the day, murdering teenage girls, hanging high school athletes. And it's hateful. And the Israelis are like the hand of God striking down the judges who handed down those sentences. So let's say the regime does collapse. Now what? Iran is a semi developed society. It's got roads, it's got hospitals, it's got a huge problem with keeping the water on. It's got electricity. Who's in charge of preventing roving gangs of criminals from taking over the streets of Iranian city cities? The Iranian military is going to be broken. And if the idea is somebody takes
- [42:09]
Tim Miller
power, who Trump even said, we killed them. I don't know. We had a couple guys in mind. They're dead now.
- [42:14]
David Frum
Yeah. And if, if the idea is that the Pahlavi dynasty returns, I mean, they are going to need some kind of international structure. And by the way, they're going to need international aid. Because by the time this ends, if it ends in anything like the way the United States and Israel hope, and that, I hope, with a transition to some new kind of regime, it's going to be broken. And they're gonna need international assistance and they're gonna need help reconstructing their oil facilities. Who's thinking about that?
- [42:40]
Tim Miller
Well, nobody. Our president wants to steal stuff from them if they get a new regime, wants to take there, wants to do the Venezuela deal where if we're gonna take Carg island and then we're gonna get a 20% vig, you know, 5% for the country, 15% for Don Jr.
- [42:53]
David Frum
This is the other really important mistake about Iraq, and this is one I personally was most guilty of. So I'm very conscious of it. So you looked at a picture of Baghdad in 2003, and you saw all these buildings. They look sort of like buildings you knew, and you thought, there must be people going to work in those buildings. There must be something like a state. So when you remove the 200 worst actors at the top, you'll inherit a state structure. That's what happened in Japan in 1945, is, you know, the people at the Ministry of Tramways continue to go to work and to operate the tramways. And it turned out, no, actually there was no state. The United States had broken and the Iraqis had broken that state long before there was nobody in those buildings. They weren't doing anything. So you remove the 200 worst actors, the whole thing disintegrated into chaos. And it needed many more people, many more armed people to keep order in that society. Than the United States had ever budgeted for or ever would budget for. The original plans for Iraq said, you'll need 300,000 men and that. Which, by the way, was the correct number. It turns out if people had accepted that the Iraq war would never have happened. No one was sending 300,000 to Iraq. So the United States government at the time, President Bush, Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, persuaded themselves they could do it with 100,000 troops for a short time. And that was not true. And chaos broke out. As I said, too few people for too short a time for the excellent reason that they wouldn't have sent this proper number. It wouldn't have been worth it. So that's the question we're facing with Iran. What is it going to take to keep order in Iran if you collapse the regime? It's a country of 90 million. It's bigger than Ukraine. It's mountainous. The population may be well disposed to at least the beginning, but they'll get grouchy, too, if there isn't electricity, if there isn't water.
- [44:30]
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- [45:08]
Tim Miller
See why 4 out of 5 employers
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David Frum
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- [45:26]
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- [45:34]
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- [46:11]
David Frum
Fantastic.
- [46:13]
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- [46:30]
Tim Miller
This takes us to what I tease at the top, which is why when I just assess what is happening in this conflict, I feel like Barbara Lee or Code Pink. I just, I'm like, I think this is just a catastrophe of epic proportions. I think it's possibly, it's most likely going to be the biggest catastrophe of either Trump term, I guess, up to now. Who the hell knows what the future could hold? I just think economically, geopolitically, I don't see any possible good solution for Iran. I think that the worst case scenario is just a total breakdown of the state and a refugee crisis and something that looks like Syria. The best case scenario is huge economic shock and a different ayatollah in charge. The whole thing seems horrific. And you know, I had Bill Kristol on earlier this week and we got some teasing on social media because, like the headline of the podcast was end the war. Because I just, like, that's how I see it. There are others, there are Democrats. And you talked about this a little bit on your podcast about, you know, thinking that that's the wrong approach. There's like, we are where we are. The Iranians are bad guys. It needs to be managed. So, like, how do you, like, where do you see my Barbara Lee approach as incorrect at this point?
- [47:39]
David Frum
I think what you're doing is you're pushing together into one question. What are two separate questions. So question one is, would you have pressed the go button at the beginning or would you have approved the pressing of the go button at the beginning? So President W. Bush, President Obama, President Biden, they all had the opportunity, President Trump won to press the go button and they all said no. So that's a pretty wide range of presidents said, you know what? No, no, go. And if you'd ask me the day before the strike, would you Approve a Trump led war on Iran? Absolutely not. Even if it has the military's ready, the political leadership, they're not to be trusted. They're not ready. The homeland's naked. They're crooks. They will take emoluments from the Saudis and the Kuwaitis and the Gulfies. No, I am not in favor. I would not. If I were in charge, I would not press go. And if I'm as an observer, as a poll answerer, I do not approve the decision to go if done by President Trump. Trump? No, no, no. But now it's March 20th, the go button is pressed. What happens now, and this is, I think, is where our disagreement is. I don't think it's a meaningful answer to say stop the war because everything I'm worried about, we're already on that path. So my response is the people who care about the country, in which I do not include President Trump, need to find some way to assert authority over this war that has begun and is on its way to being a very big war. The plane is in the air. So the question is, how do you bring the plane, turn it around,
- [49:02]
Tim Miller
try to land it on the ice in Greenland?
- [49:04]
David Frum
I don't know. Yeah, but what stop the war really means is turn off the ignition and see what happens because you can't go backwards in time. You can't turn the plane around, you can't undo what has been done.
- [49:15]
Tim Miller
And so I just don't see how it could get better. Like what is a path to it getting better than it is today? And I don't see it, I think stopping the bombing and getting Israel to stop as well and letting Iran figure it out feels like it's not a good situation. It's a really bad situation because they
- [49:31]
David Frum
don't stop the Iran doesn't stop the war. Why? Because they have to exact a price. If supposing we did that, the Iranian regime has to reassert its authority within its territory, which means killing a lot of people. And they have to exact a price from the Emirates. They don't stop firing at Israel. They have to exact a price right now. They look, they're humiliated.
- [49:50]
Tim Miller
What is it? This is where I start to. This is where I start to feel like again, a peace nicker in America. First person. What does that have to do with us? Who cares? I just think back to when we were in the Bush era and Obama and we were writing for speeches and I was working with Republicans. One thing that we kept talking about was we needed energy independence at home. Because we did not want to be caught up in dealing with the fights of these mullahs and be at their mercy overseas. That was the point of becoming energy independent. And so now it's like, who cares if the United Arab Emirates and Iran keep shooting at each other? That doesn't have anything to do with us, does it?
- [50:29]
David Frum
There's no such thing as energy independence. There's one global price of energy, and wherever it comes from, that's the price. So you may get all of your energy from North America. There may be no absolute shortage, but the price will be the global price. You can't get oil from the Persian Gulf to Japan. Well, the Japanese then enter the auction market for North American oil.
- [50:48]
Tim Miller
But if we stopped, wouldn't Iran then just sell their oil again? These are all bad scenarios. I'm not for this. But we're here now. I look at the same thing that you're looking at now and you're saying, we're here now so we should figure out how to manage the war. I'm saying we're here now and everything we do from here gets worse. If I guess the new Iranian regime, whatever asshole Ayatollah takes over, then starts selling their oil to Asia, that's not great. But we shouldn't have started this conflict in the first place. Why are we going to fight on Carg island so that Asia can get oil? It doesn't make any sense to me.
- [51:24]
David Frum
So, two answers to that question. The first one is why do I care? And the second is what do I hope would happen? Admitting that what I hope for is kind of unlikely. Why is because the reason I became an anti Trump Republican in the first place and I remain an anti Trump Republican. I've disaffiliated from the party and moral disgust, but I believe in American global leadership. I don't want to see the Chinese fleet policing the Persian Gulf, even though the oil is flowing not to the United States, but to American allies. The United States gets enormous benefits from being in charge of world safety. Because if the United States is not, either there won't be world safety or China and India will do it. And I don't want to live in that planet and I don't want that planet for my children.
- [52:02]
Tim Miller
But we've elected Trump twice since then. Look at the job he's doing managing the. He's not doing a good job. It's being managed quite poorly. And maybe we should just stop and let him be America first and build his arch here and stop doing this stuff. And then we can deal with all of that. Reasserting our global power in 2029 and
- [52:21]
David Frum
maybe the twice election of Trump means, I mean I come at this again from a Canadian point of view where I sometimes we look at the United States as outsiders, but we also maybe have more admiration and trust in the United States and a more idealized version. But the America I believe in, and maybe I'm just a fossil and when I shuffle off the stage, this view goes with me. I still believe in the mission of the United States. I still believe in the capacity of the United States. And yes, the two elections of Trump challenge my view of the ultimate value of the American experiment. But I'm not giving that up. And so I still want to live in that unipolar American led world order rallies like minded countries to meet the challenge from China that tries to recruit India into that order. Difficult as that project is. And this is part of it. And so what I hope will happen, and again, this is maybe more fanciful than your idea of stopping the war, is that there are enough Republican senators who behind the scenes will work with enough Democratic senators behind the scenes and Democratic members of the House to say to President Trump, you have to put a responsible person at dhs. You have to replace the head of the FBI. If Hegseth wants to keep his job, let him keep his job. Let's make sure there's someone who's doing the job who isn't Hegseth because he's on meathead. And let's have some real people and let's have achievable aims and let us apologize to all of our friends in Europe and let's try to build the coalition and let's give the American people the message you should have given. And maybe that message can't come from you. You know, the reason we call it the Marshall Plan, the thing the United States did after World War II was because President Truman at that point had lost the trust of Republicans in Congress. And he said, if it's named for me, it won't happen. He found George Marshall, who was the most admired man in the country and said, this is your idea now. So we need to find people who are admired, who are in the vicinity of the Trump administration, who can become the face of getting us out of this jam that President Trump has driven the country into. As I said, I would not have pressed the go button. I was not in favor of pressing the go button, but the go button is press. We can't be unpressed.
- [54:19]
Tim Miller
What would you tell to a Marine right now about or their family about why they're going to do an amphibious attack on Kharg Island. Like what is the point? Why would we do that?
- [54:28]
David Frum
It would be a hard thing to say to somebody in that line of danger. I hope what I'm about to say is true. You've drilled this operation, you and your predecessors, every day for the past 50 years. You are going to succeed and you're going to succeed at acceptable costs because you're in the United States Marine Corps and you have been thinking about this under presidents going back to Jimmy Carter.
- [54:46]
Tim Miller
Carter.
- [54:46]
David Frum
And I'm sure that the planning started under Carter and it will work. And you are doing this because the United States is at war with the world's leading state sponsor of terror that is the blood of many, many Americans on its hands and that has killed 40,000 of its own people in a matter of weeks. And you're bringing a better future to that country and you're doing what American soldiers do at their best, which is fight for justice and freedom, not only safety at home and justice and freedom for other people. And I'd hope to God that that would be true and that there would be people back home who would feel a little bit that sense of what America used to be and should be again, but isn't now.
- [55:19]
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- [55:25]
ZipRecruiter Ad Voice
When you're hiring, we at ZipRecruiter know you can feel frustrated, forlorn even, like your efforts are futile. And you can spend a fortune trying to find fabulous people only to get flooded with candidates who are just fine F. Fortunately, ZipRecruiter figured out how to fix all that and right now you can try ZipRecruiter for free at ZipRecruiter.com Zip with ZipRecruiter you can forget your frustrations because we find the right people for your roles fast, which is our absolute favorite F word. In fact, four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day.
- [56:02]
David Frum
Fantastic.
- [56:04]
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- [56:21]
David Frum
I'm the host of Big Technology Podcast, a longtime reporter and an on air contributor to CNBC and if you're like me, you're trying to figure out how artificial intelligence is changing the business world and our lives. So each week on Big Technology, I bring on key actors from companies building AI tech and outsiders trying to influence it, asking where this is all going. They come from places like Nvidia, Microsoft, Amazon, and plenty more. So if you want to be smart with your wallet, your career choices, in meetings with your colleagues and at dinner parties, listen to Big Technology Podcast wherever you get your podcasts.
- [56:55]
Tim Miller
I want to ask you about the Israel element of this as well. Obviously something that is important to you and more so than me. And so I maybe this is my version of you being a Canadian looking in. Maybe my distance here is not giving me the full point of view on something. And so I just want to posit this and get your reaction. One thing we agree on is I just think that there's a scourge of anti Semitism here and globally that is expanding and growing. And I think that that's a problem. I think simultaneously that obviously Israel has very serious security issues which they have the right to deal with. And yet the way in which Bibi has worked with Trump on this war, to me, has done a lot to exacerbate the global antisemitism problems. And I think if you look at, just to give one example of this, Joe Kent, who we can both agree is an anti Semite and a bad person, he resigns his job and he writes this sentence, iran posed no imminent threat to our nation, and it's clear that we started this war due to pressure from Israel. Here is what Carolyn Levitt, the spokesperson for the president, said in response to that, that this is a lie. President Trump has clearly and explicitly stated he had strong and compelling evidence that Iran was going to attack the United States. First, if you were to say person in the world, and you were listening to those two statements, and Joe Kent, the anti Semite, says, no, there was no imminent threat, we did this due to pressure from Israel. And the other side says, oh, no, that's not true. Iran was going to attack us any day. Now, I don't think it's crazy for sensible people to look at that and say, it seems like Joe Kent is the one that is saying the truth here. And I think that that has created a problem for, for Israel and for Trump that they, that they've put themselves in this situation. How do you react to that?
- [58:37]
David Frum
I reckon, well, neither is true, but the problem is that the truth is one, that it's a little Difficult for leaders to articulate. So Iran in March, I guess the war started in February, in February of 2026, was not an imminent threat to the United States. That's not why the United States struck. The United States struck because Israeli action had made Iran so vulnerable that for the first time since 1979, the long simmering U. S. Iran war, which has been going on nonstop in one form OR another since 1979, the United States could strike with devastating effect and at very low cost thanks to the Israeli success last summer against the Iranian air defenses. This was the moment when you could achieve something that every American president has thought about very seriously. The United States worked with Israel under the Obama administration to use clandestine means to stop the Iranian nuclear bomb program. And the Israelis were doing things like messing up the Iranian centrifuges, killing Iranian nuclear scientists. The United States did not veto those actions and probably helped. So there has been this war in the shadows for a long time. It goes back to kidnapping of American diplomats at the embassy in 1979, the murder of American marines in 1982 in Beirut, the torture of the CIA station chief, the Iranians supplying IEDs in Iraq. This is a long running battle. The United States struck now because this was the moment of safety. And so the claim of imminent threat, I think, is untrue. Iran was struck because this was the moment to prevent it from becoming the next North Korea. And that, I think, is why the military was willing to do it. And president Trump acted. Maybe he was under the impression his poll numbers would go up. Who knows how he thinks? I'm not going to pretend to understand that. But for Israel, this war truly is existential. I mean, the Iranians have made it very clear the reason they want a nuclear weapon was to. They have a big. They used to a big clock in the center of Tehran with the countdown to the annihilation of Israel by the year 2040. And the Iranians were the funders of the people who attacked Israel on October 7th. So from an Israeli point of view, that war doesn't end until you've gone to Berlin in a way and turned off the source of the existential threat. And Israel is in a much safer place. Israel has a much narrower margin of security than the United States does, but. But there was no imminent threat. But it's also not true. This is some kind of Israeli scheme. It's America saying this. I don't think Kamala Harris would have done this, but if a younger and healthier Joe Biden were president in 2026, would he have thought very, very hard about striking Iran then I believe he would and would even, I think even a President Obama might have thought very, very hard. This is the moment. Let's do it.
- [61:11]
Tim Miller
Just my one follow up on this and then we'll close with the MMA fight and give people a dessert that they've been waiting for. Is given the nature of the existential threat, Israel cannot make decisions on war and peace based on what's going to be said on the Theo Vaughn podcast in America. I recognize that. And yet given the increasing isolation and concerns about anti Semitism in the west and Europe and the U.S. i even listened to that answer that you just gave and it's like, well, the US didn't really go because of Israel, but. But Iran was an existential threat to Israel. This was a real threat that they faced. And now we are part of it because it's kind of for these long, complicated, more bank shot reasons. And I just worry if you're Israel and you're trying to weigh all the various threats, you're thinking about this and you're giving a lot of ammo, you're giving a lot of rhetorical ammo and aid and comfort to people that don't like you, don't want to be supportive of you. And I think maybe you could be putting yourself in a situation where in 2028 you have two different presidential candidates who are both opp to you because of the way that this was prosecuted. And that is also a long term risk to Israel. And I think that it would be fair for people to critique or to be concerned about the relationship based on that. Is that wrong from your perspective?
- [62:30]
David Frum
No, I don't think it's wrong. There's an Israeli peace and an American peace and it is a very difficult balance from an Israeli point of view. And I speak as a Jew and a supporter of Israel. It's a very difficult balance for friends of Israel and for Israelis to think how much of our security should we rest on the opinions of others and how much should we rest on our own limited strength? This goes into history that never mind the Holocaust. But one of the things that I think every Israeli remembers is when Israel kidnapped Adolf Eichmann from Argentina in 1960 and robbed Israel for trial. That action was condemned by resolution of the United nations and The Entebbeye in 1976 when Israel flew to to Uganda and rescued a plane full of hostages who were going to be murdered. The United nations didn't quite vote to condemn it, but it nearly did. And so deep in the memory of every Israeli and friend of Israelis. You know, if we rely on popularity to protect the Jewish people, thin reed, we're never that popular and people will be sorry for us afterwards, but they won't help us before. So now Israel has to be shrewd about this and wise, because Israel's strength is limited. It can't just, it can't behave in any way it wishes and it depends on permission of others and needs support from the United States and its partners in Europe. So it can't do whatever it wants. But the idea of chasing likes and clicks, that's not a viable strategy, not for a country that is on the verge of extinction. That said, and the United States has a right of veto over Israeli actions, it's often exercised it. But I think if you knew the full history of what has gone on under Obama as under Trump, you would be impressed by how much more cooperation there has historically been between the United States and Israel on Iran and how
- [64:12]
Tim Miller
much less vetoing the MMA fight that was supposed to honor America's birthday has been changed. David Frum it was going to be on the 4th of July, and that was troubling to me because the 4th of July is already starting to have a tinge of melancholy. My former favorite holiday is already starting to have a tinge of melancholy. And I was like, what am I going to, how am I going to just disassociate myself from the world on this Independence Day? Luckily, Donald Trump has done us a favor. He's moved the MMA fight to his birthday in June. Instead, we'll be celebrating the President and it will be aired on the new network of choice of the White House, cbs. CBS decided to air the MMA fight and there'll be some sort of Rocky vs. Drago MMA fight on the White House.
- [64:59]
David Frum
And this time the President of the United States will be on Drago's side. So the United states marked the 100th mic anniversary of independence with a great exposition of science and technology in the city of Philadelphia. The 1876 Exposition and the contents are still on display at the Smithsonian Museum in Washington at the Museum of Industry. That basically preserves the highlights of that 1876 show. It celebrated the 200th anniversary in 1976 with many events, but the highlight was a giant regatta of sailing ships in New York harbor that was jointly American and British. As if to say 200 years ago, the most violent battles of the revolution were fought in between the United States and written in New York Harbor. And today these two intimate friends are together honoring the 200th anniversary in New York harbor with ships that look like the ships of the 18th century. What a beautiful image. And the 250th MMA fighting. It just sounds like the decline and fall of the American empire symbolized right there. And a special badly executed commemorative coin find at gas stations everywhere. President Trump in his rocky, Rocky short pants and his fake six pack abdominal muscles.
- [66:10]
Tim Miller
Well, there we are. That's David Frum. Go check out his podcast, the David from. It's very. It's excellent. Thank you too. And hopefully we'll be having you back again soon. All right, brother.
- [66:18]
David Frum
Thank you always for your hospitality.
- [66:20]
Tim Miller
All right, everyone else will be back on Monday with Bill Kristol. See y' all then. Peace. Cause the eyes of the ranger are upon you Gonna see when you're in Texas? Look behind you?
- [66:38]
ZipRecruiter Announcer
Cause that's where the rangers gonna be.
- [66:41]
Tim Miller
The Bork podcast is brought to you thanks to the work of lead producer Katie Cooper, associate producer Ansley Skipper, and with video editing by Katie Lutz and audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.
- [66:54]
David Frum
Hi, this is Alex Kanchowitz. I'm the host of Big Technology Podcast, a longtime reporter and an on air contributor to cnbc. And if you're like me, you're trying to figure out how artificial intelligence is changing the business world and our lives. So each week on Big Technology, I bring on key actors from companies building AI tech and outsiders trying to influence it, asking where this is all going. They come from places like Nvidia, Microsoft, Amazon, and plenty more. So if you want to be smart with your wallet, your career choices, in meetings with your colleagues and at dinner parties, listen to Big Tech Technology Podcast wherever you get your podcasts. This is Mike Bolo of Lexicon Valley
- [67:31]
Tim Miller
and I'm Bob Garfield. Are you one of those people who sometimes uses words?
- [67:36]
David Frum
Do you communicate or acquire information with, you know, language?
- [67:42]
Tim Miller
Hey, us too. So join us on Lexicon Valley.
- [67:46]
David Frum
To true over the history, culture and
- [67:48]
Tim Miller
many mysteries of English, plus some lice
- [67:52]
David Frum
cracks, find us on one of those apps where people listen to podcasts.