The Bulwark Podcast

Episode: David Frum: Leveraging Violence as a Tool of Power
Date: September 12, 2025
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: David Frum (Staff Writer, The Atlantic; Host, The David Frum Show)

Episode Overview

This episode features a wide-ranging and urgent conversation between Tim Miller and David Frum on the rising tide of political violence in America—in particular, the assassination of Charlie Kirk—and how both the far-right and far-left are responding. They connect these events to international instability, specifically Russia's aggression in Europe and shifting American foreign policy, and discuss the alarming erosion of democratic norms, weaponization of government power, economic policy chaos, and generational malaise. Frum is passionate, sobering, and occasionally wry; Miller balances tough questions with characteristic wit.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Poland, Russia, & Trump’s Foreign Policy (03:31–08:04)

• Frum explains Poland's dual power structure—a reactionary, rural-sourced president vs. a modern, urban-sourced prime minister—and how Trump has openly interfered in Polish politics to support far-right, anti-center elements.
• Trump has also snubbed traditional diplomatic protocol (e.g., inviting Poland’s president to the White House without notifying the prime minister).
• Frum stresses Trump’s “reinvent Europe as a network of far-right parties” approach, often sympathetic to Russia:

  "This global far right pro-Russia movement does not speak for the interests of any individual nation. It's loyal to Trump. It's infatuated with Putin." (06:40)

Notable Moment

• David Frum pushes back on the 'nationalist' label:

  "He's not a nationalist. He is a globalist too. He's just a globalist of the far right." (06:40)

2. NATO’s Future & Russian Aggression (09:04–15:00)

• Frum gives a stark assessment of NATO:

  "What NATO ultimately is... is a confidence by the NATO members... that the President of the United States will use nuclear weapons to protect a NATO country. Does Putin believe that? He does not... So in that sense, isn't NATO already dead?" (09:47–10:50)

• Miller and Frum discuss the Trump administration’s lack of response to Russian incursions and what that signals to allies and adversaries.
• European countries may be forced to become independent military powers—a shift Frum warns could undermine U.S. leverage on global issues like China.

Notable Quote

• On Trump’s approach:

  "The Trump policy is the only friends we want are Saudi Arabia, El Salvador and half of Israel." (14:28)

3. Ukraine War: Stalemate, U.S. Politics, and Trump’s Calculations (11:54–15:36)

• U.S. support for Ukraine is weakening, driven by Trump’s ambiguous signals and desire to retain GOP hawk credibility.
• Trump keeps promising action but never follows through, offering just enough rhetorical cover to keep supporters guessing:

  "Any minute now, I'm going to do something. So you don't want to force my hand... Now that minute never happens." (12:27–13:06)

• Europe has the economic resources to support Ukraine but lacks ready military supplies.

4. Tariffs as Trump’s Unilateral Revenue Stream (16:33–24:32)

• Frum highlights the constitutional crisis of Trump using tariffs to amass billions without Congressional approval:

  "He's got a source of revenue that doesn't depend on Congress. First time... Congress provides the money. The President can spend it, but only after Congress gives it. Trump has broken free." (16:33–17:41)

• Discussion of negative effects on consumers, legal challenges, and the pending Supreme Court case:

  “If the American Constitution... says one thing, it says the president cannot create a system of revenue independent of Congress...” (21:28)

• If tariffs are struck down, only importers get refunds—consumers don’t benefit.

5. Political Violence & the Charlie Kirk Assassination (27:01–39:51)

Moral Consequences and the Nature of Democracy

• Frum insists on principled, immediate condemnation of violence, regardless of the victim’s politics:

  “The grief over a human death is in no way dependent on your opinion of the human life... Any act of political violence is an attack on you.” (27:01)

• Democracy:

  "There's a stake of power, but the commitment is the competition for power must be peaceful." (27:48)

• The risk isn’t just the act, but the pretext it provides the government to suppress free speech and dissent.

The Danger of Retaliation and Weaponizing the State

• Trump and allies are poised to leverage the tragedy to justify repression—targeting opposition, fundraising platforms, and peaceful protestors:

  “The goal here... is to suppress speech, to suppress fundraising, to have more arbitrary arrests. This is a tool of power and that... also has to be resisted.” (28:37)

The American Experience of Political Violence

• American assassins often lack coherent political motives; they tend to be isolated, mentally unstable, unlike members of organized movements in Europe.
• Frum warns against overinterpreting partisan polls that show rising acceptance of political violence, especially among youth:

  "Maybe when you're 22, it's easier not to think about [the consequences of violence]" (36:50)

• The lack of empathy and alienation—possibly exacerbated by technology and the erosion of community—are part of the pattern.

Notable Exchange

• On how we remember the victims and uphold norms:

  "The prohibition here has to be absolute... In this violent country with firearms available everywhere, with a lot of loners cut off from community, the potential for violence is always there and our only resource against it... is our shared sense of right and wrong." (39:00)

6. FBI Purges and Incompetence under Trump (41:58–43:50)

• Discussion of the hollowing out of the FBI—DEI purges, reassignments, and general incompetence—after the Kirk assassination investigation.
• Frum broadens this to all of government:

  "If you're purging all that kind of independent person, you're going to lose a lot of confidence and it's going to have, it's demonstrated today at the FBI, it will be demonstrated tomorrow somewhere else." (43:50)

7. The J.D. Vance Conundrum: Campaigning by Being Cruel (44:36–48:37)

• Frum diagnoses JD Vance’s behavior as performance to prove his MAGA loyalty, because he lacks the natural affinity and credibility of others like Charlie Kirk.
• Vance's sociopathy is described as both strategy and potential psychological defense against guilt.

8. America as the “Black Hat” Abroad: The South Korean Incident (49:33–52:19)

• The ICE raid on a Georgia plant leads to South Korean citizens being deported and welcomed home as heroes—making the U.S. look like an authoritarian state to its allies.
• Frum: Trump’s economic policies are incoherent, demanding both capital inflows and strict immigration/trade barriers.

9. Israel, October 7th, and Trauma’s Role in Policy (52:19–59:04)

• Frum, reflecting personally, describes how the trauma of the Holocaust and October 7th affect Jewish and Israeli attitudes:

  "For a thousand years, you know, you've had the random genetic mutations that make Ashkenazi jewelry born either with an optimistic or pessimistic disposition. And what happens is in a time of trouble, the optimists stay and they don't have grandchildren and the pessimists leave and they do." (57:35)

• He insists the war must end, and Israel must aim for reintegration with the world, not just survival.

10. A New Kind of Heroism: Officer David Rose (59:04–62:02)

• Miller highlights an under-covered incident: Officer David Rose, killed defending CDC employees from a vaccine-misinformed attacker.
• Frum underscores that leaders must model moral clarity and decency after such attacks, contrasting this with the persistent, callous indifference of some officials to victims not on "their side."

11. Closing Reflections: Generational Turnover and Grandparenthood (62:04–63:34)

• Frum draws a parallel between the wisdom of stepping aside in public life and in family:

  "...It's not altogether an unhappy experience to move to the side and then be ready to move off the stage because you're making way for people you care about. And, you know, just be great. If you've lived long enough to see the end of your term, don't fight that. Embrace it..." (63:09)

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• David Frum on the far-right’s “globalism” (06:40):

  “He is a globalist too. He's just a globalist of the far right.”

• On the hollowness of NATO under Trump (10:50):

  “If you think of NATO as a guarantee, it's a promise. And everyone knows the promise will not ultimately be honored.”

• On Trump's tariff power (16:33):

  "He's got a source of revenue that doesn't depend on Congress. First time."

• On the moral imperative after violence (27:01):

  "Any act of political violence is an attack on you. Whatever you think of the person... your system... the thing that protects your liberties, that keeps you safe... that's what was attacked."

• On the need for societal empathy (39:00):

  "...our only resource against [political violence]... is our shared sense of right and wrong."

• On the trauma in Jewish/Israeli consciousness (57:15):

  "I just don't trust that you're going to be there. So... the lesson is don't wait to find out how bad this is going to be."

• On intergenerational transition (63:09):

  "...It's not altogether an unhappy experience to move to the side... because you're making way for people you care about."

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:31] – Poland, Russia, Trump’s Europe gambit
• [09:47] – NATO’s collapse, nuclear guarantees
• [11:54] – Ukraine’s war, status quo & U.S. inaction
• [16:33] – Trump’s tariffs, constitutional stakes
• [27:01] – Charlie Kirk assassination, principle vs. politics
• [41:58] – FBI purge, government hollowing out
• [44:36] – JD Vance’s campaign positioning
• [49:33] – South Korean ICE raid, US foreign relations
• [52:19] – Israel–Gaza, trauma, and global standing
• [59:04] – Officer David Rose: unsung political violence
• [62:04] – Grandparenthood, embracing generational change

Takeaways

• The U.S. is at an inflection point: the lure of using violence as a tool of power is tempting not just to the far-right, but is becoming generationally normalized.
• Trump's presidency, according to Frum, is eroding not just norms of democracy at home but alliances and moral soft power abroad; tariff policy and government purges foreshadow a deep constitutional crisis.
• The response to the assassination of Charlie Kirk will be a test—not just for political leaders, but for the private morality and civic responsibility of citizens of all stripes.
• Only by reaffirming an absolute prohibition on political violence, regardless of partisanship, can democracy and pluralism endure.
• At the personal level, empathy, generational humility, and a willingness to let others take the stage are as vital in families as they are in nations.

The Bulwark Podcast remains a must-listen for those seeking clear-eyed, reality-based commentary and deep analysis amidst the turbulence.