The Bulwark Podcast: David Frum on Sociopaths and Political Tribalism

Episode Release Date: January 2, 2025

In this compelling episode of The Bulwark Podcast, host Tim Miller engages in a profound conversation with David Frum, a renowned political commentator and author. The discussion navigates through pressing issues such as America's rise in violence, the impact of political tribalism, the looming Trump administration, economic policies on tariffs, and the state of Canadian politics. Frum offers insightful analysis and candid reflections, providing listeners with a deep understanding of the current political landscape.

1. Introduction and Recent Attacks (00:08 – 01:29)

Tim Miller opens the conversation by addressing the tragic mass shootings that have recently plagued the United States, specifically highlighting the horrific incident in New Orleans. He describes the perpetrator's actions, noting the presence of an ISIS flag and the timing coinciding with the Super Bowl, which may have contributed to the high casualty rate.

Tim Miller [00:36]: "It is horrible and it's a sad way to ring in the new year... we have 15 dead here and many more injured."

David Frum responds by framing the issue within the broader context of American society's inherent violence, attributing it to factors such as weaker interior policing compared to European nations and a deep-seated gun culture.

2. America's Violence and Gun Laws (01:29 – 03:16)

Frum elaborates on America's unique challenges with violence, emphasizing the nation's reluctance to adopt stricter gun laws—a commitment deeply ingrained in the national psyche.

David Frum [01:29]: "Americans are also very attached to guns... a deep national commitment."

He criticizes the permissive evolution of gun laws over the past two decades, arguing that this has exacerbated societal violence.

3. Social Media’s Role in Political Tribalism and Support for Perpetrators (03:16 – 06:45)

The dialogue shifts to the influence of social media in fostering political tribalism. Frum contends that platforms facilitate the rapid spread of extremist ideologies, enabling isolated individuals with violent tendencies to find like-minded communities that reinforce their destructive behaviors.

David Frum [03:16]: "The Internet and social media... empowerment of the sociopaths."

Frum underscores the double-edged sword of social media—while beneficial in many ways, it has inadvertently contributed to the rise of sociopathic behaviors by providing tools for radicalization and community formation among extremists.

4. Incoming Trump Administration and the FBI (06:45 – 12:38)

Tim Miller raises concerns about the implications of the incoming Trump administration on federal institutions, particularly the FBI. He references recent contentious statements and actions, including those by Kash Patel, highlighting fears of politicization within law enforcement agencies.

Tim Miller [09:11]: "This rationale to take this horrible event... is pretty alarming to me."

David Frum echoes these concerns, discussing the potential for a politicized FBI under Patel's leadership. He warns of the dangers posed by individuals who may manipulate the agency to target political opponents, thereby undermining its integrity and effectiveness.

David Frum [19:10]: "Kash Patel is the most alarming because the FBI... High levels of secrecy."

Frum emphasizes the importance of maintaining an unbiased and professionally run FBI to preserve national security and uphold democratic principles.

5. Confirmation of Cabinet Members and National Security (12:38 – 19:10)

The conversation delves into the broader implications of Trump's cabinet confirmations. Frum categorizes appointees into four types: normal appointees, weak individuals susceptible to manipulation, those with severe personality flaws, and ideologically extreme individuals who threaten U.S. institutions.

David Frum [17:46]: "They're dangerous because they're tools. They're not dangerous because they're co-authors."

Frum identifies Kash Patel as particularly concerning due to his potential to politicize investigations and manipulate the FBI's focus on political enemies rather than genuine national threats.

6. Tariffs and Economic Policies (19:10 – 33:58)

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on tariffs and their economic implications. Tim Miller introduces Mark Andreessen's argument that high tariffs historically contributed to America's industrial success, a point Trump has echoed in recent statements.

Mark Andreessen [26:06]: "Tariffs will pay off our debt."

Frum methodically debunks this notion, explaining that the historical context of tariffs does not support the claim that they were a primary driver of industrial growth. He highlights the inefficiencies tariffs introduce, such as increased costs for consumers and disrupted trade relationships.

David Frum [26:06]: "Tariffs represent a very small fraction of government revenue... imposing large costs on the poor."

Frum argues that reinstating high tariffs today would harm the poorest segments of society, contradicting the purported economic benefits. He criticizes both Andreessen's and Trump's simplistic views on tariffs, emphasizing the complex economic realities that tariffs distort.

7. Canadian Politics and Trudeau (33:58 – 39:31)

Tim Miller shifts the focus to Canadian politics, discussing Justin Trudeau's declining popularity and the rise of conservative opposition. He draws parallels between Canadian and American political dynamics, suggesting potential shifts that could impact U.S.-Canada relations.

David Frum analyzes Trudeau's challenges, citing housing shortages, declining productivity, and controversial political maneuvers, such as the exaggerated claims about mass graves at residential schools. He speculates on the emergence of a more traditional conservative leadership in Canada, potentially led by Pierre Poilievre.

David Frum [37:17]: "Pierre Poilievre... the single best debater in the House of Commons."

Frum predicts Poilievre will bring a more conventional conservatism to Canada's political arena, distancing from the populist and ideological extremes that have characterized recent years.

8. Media under Threat and Institutional Pressures (39:31 – 43:52)

The discussion returns to the state of the media, with Frum addressing how journalists navigate their roles under increasing threats and pressures from a volatile political environment. He reflects on the challenges faced by media organizations in maintaining journalistic integrity while being subjected to intimidation and coercion.

David Frum [42:10]: "It's inevitable... the majority was not deep enough, but broad enough."

Frum emphasizes the inherent difficulties in ensuring unbiased reporting when media entities are entangled in internal political battles and external threats, particularly under the Trump administration's adversarial stance towards the press.

9. Personal Reflections and Commitment to Work (43:52 – 47:53)

In a poignant conclusion, David Frum shares personal insights into his dedication to political commentary despite facing personal tragedies. He speaks about the moral imperative to continue advocating for democratic values and resisting authoritarian tendencies, drawing inspiration from historical figures like Winston Churchill.

David Frum [46:49]: "They think they have, but remember... there's no such thing as a lost cause."

Frum underscores the importance of perseverance and solidarity in the face of adversity, reinforcing his commitment to contribute to the discourse on safeguarding democracy.

Notable Quotes

• David Frum [03:16]: "The Internet and social media especially have created these immediate artificial communities where everyone who is who would once have had the thought... now they can all find each other and I think they activate."

• David Frum [19:10]: "Kash Patel is the most alarming because the FBI... the ability to remake the FBI without outright firing people is pretty large."

• David Frum [26:06]: "Tariffs represent a very small fraction of government revenue... Tips: Implementing high tariffs would disproportionately burden the poor."

• David Frum [37:17]: "Pierre Poilievre... the single best debater in the House of Commons."

• David Frum [46:49]: "There is no such thing as a lost cause because there's no such thing as a one cause... there's a line of T.S. Eliot."

Conclusion

This episode of The Bulwark Podcast provides a thorough and insightful exploration of contemporary political challenges. David Frum's expertise and candid discussion offer listeners valuable perspectives on the complexities of American violence, political tribalism, institutional integrity, economic policies, and international relations. His personal reflections also add depth to the conversation, highlighting the human aspect behind political commentary.

For those seeking a nuanced analysis of the current political climate, this episode is an essential listen.

Produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.