The Bulwark Podcast
Episode: David Frum: This Is Shame-Faced Trump
Date: November 14, 2025
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: David Frum (The Atlantic staff writer, host of the David Frum Show)
Overview
Tim Miller welcomes David Frum for an incisive conversation on the evolving dynamics of Trump’s political crises—particularly the Epstein scandal—and the broader currents affecting American democracy, antisemitism on the right and left, and accountability for political corruption and abuse of power. With trademark wit and candor, Frum dissects the shamelessness (and rare shame) of Donald Trump, explores the paradoxes of the MAGA and "para-MAGA" universes, and reflects on the unique American tradition of political non-vindictiveness in the face of institutional rot.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Trump’s Relationship to the Epstein Scandal
Timestamp: 01:12–07:33
- Shame-faced Trump: Frum notes the unusual nature of Trump’s response to the Epstein story, marking a rare departure from his standard brazenness.
- Quote (Frum, 02:06): “Normally, Trump doesn't cover up. He just says, yeah, I did it…I punched that baby. But there's no cover up. And Epstein is distinct because he's actually for once acting guilty and shamefaced. And that has led, I think, a lot of people to think this must be really horrible…”
- MAGA vs. Para-MAGA: Frum introduces a distinction between 'MAGA,' centered on Trump’s personal grievances, and ‘para-MAGA’—a more conspiracy-driven, deeply paranoid ecosystem invested in the Epstein narrative.
- Quote (Frum, 04:03): “There is this paramaga universe, for whom Trump was a vehicle for their general craziness and insanity and paranoia and hatefulness…So Paramaga spent years convincing the really hardcore...that Epstein...This is the master story of American life. This will unravel everything…And now Trump is trying to run around the amphitheater turning the spotlights off and it's not working.”
- Loss of Control Over the Narrative: The Epstein scandal is unique in that the outer reaches of the right-wing media are not following Trump's attempts at distraction and denial, weakening his usual grip on messaging.
- Quote (Miller, 03:07): “In part because at least some element of his own media ecosystem won’t go along with it.”
2. Potential Erosion of Trump’s Political Coalition
Timestamp: 07:33–10:10
- A Lame Duck Scent: Signs within the MAGA coalition suggest a possible turning point where Trump’s political dominance may begin to unravel, triggered by the Epstein story, economic woes, and post-election malaise.
- Quote (Miller, 06:31): “It does feel like it’s at least possible that this week could be a week we look back on and say, you know, the wheels did finally come off this fucking thing.”
- Economic Accountability: Frum emphasizes that Trump's economic policies (notably tariffs) have had direct negative impacts on everyday Americans, making it difficult for the administration to spin away real grievances about prices.
- Quote (Frum, 07:33): “If people are concerned about the price of macaroni and cheese. Well, the reason the price...is up is because Trump tariffed the macaroni.”
- Tariff Policy Hypocrisy: The administration’s attempts to roll back tariffs to lower prices expose the failed logic and impact of Trump’s prior policies.
- Quote (Frum, 09:39): “You mean if I drop the egg from a two story window...That’s why the egg carton smashed.”
3. Media, Deflection, and Defenses of Trump
Timestamp: 13:06–16:05
- Megyn Kelly & Podcast Apologia: Miller and Frum discuss Megyn Kelly’s attempts to minimize Epstein’s crimes (“barely legal” deflections) and the broader culture of right-wing media finding tortured reality-based defenses for Trump.
- Notable Audio Clip (Kelly, 13:06): “He liked 15 year old girls...he wasn’t into 8 year olds but he liked the very young teen types...that would look legal to a passerby.”
- Quote (Frum, 13:44): “Now there may be something about the pressure of that size podcast aimed at that size audience that drives people quite literally crazy.”
- Media Incentives: The allure of algorithm-driven podcasts incentivizes ever more extreme and reality-bending content, “rewarding real mania” among leading hosts.
4. American (and Political) Morality Shifts Around Sex Scandals
Timestamp: 16:15–17:20
- Changing Attitudes: Frum remarks on the historical separation between a politician’s treatment of women and broader moral character; contemporary standards increasingly reject this dichotomy.
- Quote (Frum, 16:15): “As politics becomes less...male dominated...Are women people? Is your treatment of women a reflection of the kind of person you are?...It’s just not enough to say, well, I waited until the...girl...was 18 before I molested her.”
5. Corruption, Settlements, and Retaliatory Government Power
Timestamp: 17:20–29:07
- Trump Administration Payouts: Miller and Frum discuss unprecedented (by modern standards) attempts by Trump’s DOJ to settle financially with cronies (e.g., Michael Flynn seeking $50 million) and shield Senators involved in January 6th from legal scrutiny.
- Quote (Frum, 19:28): “The predicate for all this is that Trump will instruct his Department of Justice to take the fall and not to defend the interests of the taxpayer...”
- Categories of Trumpian Abuses: Frum outlines four forms of abuse:
- Squandering for Vanity
- Personal Enrichment
- Ideological/Evil Deeds without Direct Gain (e.g., Stephen Miller)
- Political Retribution/Watergate-style Abuses (e.g., Bill Pulte)
- Quote (Frum, 28:39): “Using files obtained by the government for one purpose and...for the purpose of legal criminal retribution. That is the Watergate category of offense.”
6. After Trump—What Should Accountability Look Like?
Timestamp: 29:52–34:20
- Non-vindictiveness as American Tradition: Frum wonders if the tradition of “bygones be bygones” after political scandal has become obsolete given the scale and permanence of Trump-era abuses.
- Quote (Frum, 29:52): “My question...If we somehow get to the other side of this second Trump administration...should bygones be bygones? Or should there be some kind of deeper sense of cleaning up the government?”
- Institutional Reforms: Discussion of shortcomings in meaningful post-Trump reforms, suggesting, for example, that anyone under Secret Service protection (e.g., Trump’s children) should be required to release their tax returns.
7. Immigration Enforcement—Border vs. Workplace
Timestamp: 34:20–36:46
- The False Border Debate: Frum asserts that genuine immigration enforcement must focus on the workplace, not the border itself—contrary to populist rhetoric.
- Quote (Frum, 34:58): “The locus of enforcement is not the border, it’s the workplace...You have to do it on the interior...Write them a big fine if their workers are not legal.”
8. Venezuela, Drug Policy, and Costly Futility
Timestamp: 36:46–41:34
- On Military Solutions and Intervention: Frum shares a nuanced “neocon” view: willing to consider intervention, but only with allies, congressional approval, and a long-term plan; dismisses “blowing up drug boats” as futile.
- Drug War Economics Anecdote: Frum shares a memorable story about Daniel Patrick Moynihan and George Schultz on the futility of supply-side drug enforcement.
- Quote (Frum, 41:09): “[Moynihan] achieves a huge drug bust...is very excited...George Schultz...could barely fold down his newspaper...George, I suppose you think that so long as there is demand for drugs in the United States, there will be a supply of drugs from somewhere. And that's the point.”
9. Antisemitism on the Right and Left
Timestamp: 41:34–54:19
- Right-Wing Antisemitism: Candace Owens' and Tucker Carlson's descent into anti-Jewish conspiracy-mongering is discussed, with explicit attributions of antisemitism, not merely anti-Zionism.
- Quote (Miller, 42:11): “Candace’s explicit anti Semitism and explicit conspiracy mongering...The Mossad came from underground in Utah to kill Charlie Kirk...”
- Quote (Frum, 42:59): “Anti-semitism is different...because it is not based on contempt, it is based on paranoia...Once you start delving into paranoia, sooner or later you need to—as Candace discovered—you need to know who’s they?”
- Left-Wing Antisemitism & Anti-Zionism: The discussion turns to the “horseshoe” between left anti-Zionist rhetoric and traditional antisemitism, citing anti-Zionism as a thinly-disguised form of the old hatred.
- Quote (Frum, 44:37): “Antisemitism began its life as a euphemism to create a new kind of anti-Jewish hate…it functioned in exactly the same way as anti Zionism does. It's a way of retaining the old hate while distancing yourself from the old justification.”
- Navigating Criticism of Israel Without Collapsing Into Bigotry: Miller and Frum agree on the need for clear, principled critique of Israeli policies that avoids fanning the flames of antisemitism or nihilistic conspiracy.
- Quote (Frum, 52:51): “A way to do it...is a little bit the Biden method...you go to Israel, you see the devastation...and then say, let me tell you, I think your answer is wrong...But if you don't value my life very much.”
- Algorithmic Radicalization: Both discuss how social media platforms are actively fostering connections among antisemites, accelerating radicalization (X/Twitter, TikTok).
10. Canadian Perspective on the Trump Era
Timestamp: 54:37–55:13
- Impact on Canada: Frum, as a Canadian, recounts how Trump’s trade war has hurt the Canadian economy and altered longstanding positive American-Canadian relations, sowing real hardship and resentment in regions like Toronto.
Notable Quotes / Memorable Moments
- “He just says, yeah, I did it. I punched that baby...But there’s no cover up. Epstein is distinct because...for once [Trump is] acting guilty and shamefaced.” (Frum, 02:06)
- “There is this Paramaga universe, for whom Trump was a vehicle for their general craziness and insanity and paranoia and hatefulness.” (Frum, 04:35)
- “The tariffs—if I drop an egg from a two story window...the egg carton smashed.” (Frum, 09:39)
- “Category four, and this is where Pulte comes in, are people using the power of the state for political retribution. This is the Watergate type of crime.” (Frum, 28:39)
- “Should bygones be bygones? Or...should there be some kind of deeper sense of cleaning up the government?” (Frum, 29:52)
- “Anti-semitism is different...because it is not based on contempt, it is based on paranoia.” (Frum, 42:59)
- “Urban crime...how do you deal with it? Do you see this as a secret source of political power? Or do you understand...you have to learn how to talk about this in ways that don't use that resource, even though it’s beckoning?” (Frum, 49:15)
Timestamps for Major Segments
- 01:12–07:33: Trump and the Epstein scandal; MAGA vs. para-MAGA
- 07:33–10:10: Trump’s waning coalition, economic problems, and tariffs
- 13:06–16:05: Megyn Kelly’s defenses and right-wing media incentives
- 17:20–29:07: Corruption, settlements, and government retribution
- 29:52–34:20: Post-Trump accountability and political traditions
- 34:20–36:46: Immigration enforcement: border vs. workplace
- 36:46–41:34: Venezuela, intervention, and the futility of the drug war
- 41:34–54:19: Antisemitism, both right and left; the dangers of conspiratorial politics
- 54:37–55:13: Canadian view of Trump’s economic impact
Tone/Language
- Conversational, incisive, irreverent: Frum and Miller maintain a skeptical, reality-based, and unsparing tone, unafraid to use humor, sarcasm, and frank language. The critique is sharp but grounded in a commitment to liberal democratic values.
Recommended For
Listeners seeking a bracing, analytic, yet accessible breakdown of the post-fact American right, the dangers of institutional decay, the complexities of antisemitism debates, and the challenge of crafting a new era of accountability for American governance.