Podcast Summary
Podcast: The Bulwark Podcast
Episode: David Frum: Trump and Epstein Were Best Friends
Date: December 19, 2025
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: David Frum
Episode Overview
The conversation centers on Donald Trump’s relationship with Jeffrey Epstein as newly-released documents trickle out, the unraveling of Trump’s political strategy, fractures inside the post-Trump right, Trump’s mounting corruption scandals (notably in crypto and business), rising authoritarian concerns, dangerous foreign policy shifts (Venezuela, potential attack on democracy), and Trump’s personalization of U.S. politics and institutions. Frum shares sobering, often darkly comedic, insights into these crises with historical and legal context.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Trump & Jeffrey Epstein: No Mysteries Left ([02:21–05:49])
- Newly released Epstein files are expected, but not in full; “many secrets, no mysteries” applies to Trump’s ties with Epstein.
- David Frum ([02:58]): "They were best friends. The only photos you ever see of Donald Trump where he is authentically smiling in the presence of another human being, it was Jeffrey Epstein and Putin."
- Trump and Epstein shared personal and behavioral overlap (“stealing, sexual assault”) and likely only fell out over business.
- Recent NYT reporting (Nick Confessori) confirms the depth of the relationship: Epstein is believed to have introduced multiple women (some abuse victims) to Trump; no allegations against Trump by those particular women, but proximity is damning.
- David Frum ([05:01]): “With the President of the United States, there's a threshold question: is this a person who regards all Americans, including women, including young people, including kids, who are adrift, as human beings worthy of respect, or does he regard them as objects…? The Epstein story… tells you who he is. But you already knew that, or you should have already known that.”
2. Trump’s Flailing Political Strategy: "Flood the Zone" in Reverse ([06:41–10:16])
- Trump attempted to distract from the Epstein revelations with a chaotic, “Mall Santa” economic speech, which failed as distraction or persuasion.
- Frum references Steve Bannon's "flood the zone with shit" strategy, now working against Trump himself.
- David Frum ([06:41]): “…when times are not prosperous and they're not prosperous now, the flood the zone with shit goes into complete reverse because there's one story … they can't afford their groceries … Meanwhile, the president's fixed on the White House ballroom and Epstein and Venezuela.”
- Trump’s speech signified desperation: relying on statistics he’d previously never needed, losing his previous “con artist” charm.
- David Frum ([08:58]): “The very fact that he's using [statistics] is part of the desperation of the con artist where the trick isn't working.”
- Both agree MAGA voters and elites can sense Trump’s drift; his old moves don’t work, and focus group voters are angry over inflation and failed economic promises.
3. Conservative In-Fighting and MAGA's Trajectory ([12:28–17:02])
- Ben Shapiro’s public denunciation of Tucker Carlson, Candace Owens, Nick Fuentes, and Steve Bannon on antisemitism and conspiracy-mongering (full quote at [12:28–13:59]).
- Shapiro points out that Bannon was a “PR flack for Jeffrey Epstein.”
- Frum explains the current right-wing ecosystem: Trump benefited from a strong economy he didn’t create. Now that the economy has soured, fringe influencers are forced to out-crazy each other to get attention.
- David Frum ([15:20]): “Charlie Kirk was the apex predator. When [he] was murdered and taken away from the scene, that left a lot of ecological spaces for, like, the smaller, meaner dinosaurs to roam the earth.”
- Tim Miller notes: "Trump is the apex predator… the biggest conspirator in the whole party is not Tucker, Candace, it's the President of the United States." ([16:20])
4. Authoritarian Risks and U.S. Democratic Stability ([18:12–21:05])
- Frum’s assessment: autocratic ambitions have hard limits unless the political “wave” is small. Manipulating close congressional races is possible (discussed via the real Indiana 7th House race precedent), but if the opposition’s win is large enough, these efforts break down.
- Frum warns about the Republican need to “find some way to stop Democratic votes from being tallied.”
- Both agree large-scale attempts to overturn democratic outcomes are harder to pull off if margins are big.
5. Trump’s Latest Corruption: Crypto, Meme Coins, and Business Entanglements ([23:58–31:41])
- Attention turns to the stunning merger of Trump’s “Truth Social”/blog/crypto business with a nuclear fusion company (valued at $6 billion). Trump is now the majority owner of a (highly regulated) nuclear fusion business.
- Frum and Miller break down how Supreme Court decisions have hollowed out anti-corruption law, making it nearly impossible to convict politicians for clear influence-peddling unless explicit, recorded quid-pro-quos exist. This enables unprecedented corruption.
- Trump’s meme coins and crypto grifts are forests for abuse. Frum ([25:55]): “The people who bought millions of dollars' worth of those coins were not dupes. They were looking for a way to give money to Donald Trump personally in a way that would pass scrutiny and maybe protect their privacy, too.”
- On stablecoins: Frum details how these are functionally uninsured shadow banks, attractive to criminals and foreign actors, and a nightmare for systemic risk and money laundering ([27:37–29:57]).
- The fusion company situation underlines the broader regulatory risk of presidential business entanglements.
6. Foreign Policy Chaos: Venezuela and Japan Nuclearization ([33:43–46:14])
A. Venezuela Crisis ([33:43–40:21])
- Unsettling escalation of U.S. military forces near Venezuela. No clear goal or allies—a situation best described as ad hoc, dangerous, and politically motivated.
- Trump's team lacks planning, bypasses Congress, potentially for domestic demagoguery.
- Frum ([37:13]): “They have pulled together an enormous array of military force into the area. …Wouldn't you have asked for options before moving all these ships and troops? …It just seems to be a series of ad hoc actions by different parts of the federal government with no clear plan, at enormous cost and at enormous hazard…"
- Trump publicly floats seizing Venezuelan oil (“go to war for oil”)—a step even Iraq war-era hawks found absurd. There’s “no shortage” of oil, making the premise itself illogical ([39:21–40:21]).
B. Japan’s Nuclear Umbrella ([42:28–45:07])
- Reports surface that Japan is considering developing nuclear weapons, a seismic shift brought on by diminished faith in long-term U.S. reliability.
- Frum details how Trump’s abandonment of allies (and public flirtation with military action against NATO countries) could launch a proliferation cascade among U.S. allies.
- Frum ([43:50]): “…if you're a European, if you're Japanese, if you're South Korean, if you're Taiwanese, you have to think …we thought we could trust the Americans and now we see we cannot.”
- Vance, seen as Trump’s intellectual successor, is even more “America First,” accelerating these risks.
7. Immigration Crackdown: Real-Life Impact ([46:14–48:48])
- Domestic labor markets already reeling as anti-immigration policy bites: construction industry faces acute shortages, as large shares of workforce (especially for drywall/roofing) are undocumented.
- U.S. on track for its first year of population decline since the first census (1790).
- Frum warns nativist economics will compound recessionary pressures, especially by combining trade and immigration shocks ([47:50]): “...the idea that you're doing both an immigration shock and a trade shock at the same time... that's a formula for a recession plus inflation at the same time.”
8. Personalization of U.S. Institutions and the "Trumpification" of Government ([48:48–51:19])
- Trump replays COVID stimulus check “signature” trick as a Patriot Dividend, repurposing money already allocated for veterans and service-members.
- Trump unilaterally renames the Kennedy Center the "Trump Kennedy Center"—another norm-smashing, technically illegal power grab.
- Frum is asked if the next (normative) president should "move on or undo." He appeals to the “Tit for Tat” computer science classic: norms only work if transgressions are met with symmetrical responses.
- Frum ([53:14]): “It can't be the rule that Republicans get to break every norm and Democrats have to tidy the game, the room, up afterwards.”
9. On Rob Reiner and Decency in Public Life ([53:31–54:41])
- Brief tribute to Rob Reiner after his tragic death: Reiner as an exemplar of artistic achievement and basic decency, contrasted to Trump’s tendency to “be a real dick” at moments demanding empathy.
- Frum ([54:31]): “There will be people born with mental problems. Some ... violent ... all the rest of us can do is try to be decent … when the utmost leader ... says, this is my moment to be a real dick, what hope is there for anyone else?”
Notable Quotes
-
On Epstein & Trump:
"They were best friends... The only photos of Donald Trump where he is authentically smiling with another human being are with Jeffrey Epstein or Putin." — David Frum ([02:58]) -
On Trump’s Downfall:
"He had a kind of chuckling manner. He didn't look desperate... This is a guy who had to make the sale and had lost the knack for making the sale." — David Frum ([06:41–08:55]) -
On Podcast Right’s Descent:
"Charlie Kirk was the apex predator…that left a lot of ecological spaces for, like, the smaller, meaner dinosaurs to roam the earth." — David Frum ([15:20]) -
On Political Norms:
"It can't be the rule that Republicans get to break every norm and Democrats have to tidy the game, the room, up afterwards." — David Frum ([53:14])
Timestamps for Major Segments
- 02:21 – Epstein documents & Trump’s association
- 06:41 – Trump’s failed “flood the zone” strategy and economic woes
- 12:28 – Ben Shapiro’s speech & right-wing infighting
- 18:12 – Authoritarian risk, threats to democracy
- 23:58 – Trump corruption: crypto, meme coins, nuclear fusion company
- 33:43 – Venezuela: foreign policy chaos, saber-rattling
- 42:28 – Japan and nuclear proliferation risk
- 46:14 – Immigration clampdown and economic costs
- 48:48 – Trump’s name on checks, Kennedy Center stunt, political norm degradation
- 53:31 – Rob Reiner tribute, decency in public life
Tone & Language
Consistently sharp, deeply informed, and laced with dark humor and exasperation (“flood the zone with shit,” “Trump is an old queen, he's a Broadway queen at heart,” etc.). Both speakers’ critiques are grounded in historical and legal context, offering wit as relief to grim subject matter.
Summary by sections for easier navigation and understanding of complex political developments and the state of the American right.