The Bulwark Podcast: Ezra Klein — "Protecting People Means Winning Power"

Date: September 25, 2025
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Ezra Klein (opinion columnist, New York Times; host of The Ezra Klein Show; co-author, Abundance)

Episode Overview

This episode is a wide-ranging, candid conversation between Tim Miller and Ezra Klein about the stark choices facing American liberals in the Trump era, political strategy in the age of polarization, and the dangerous escalation of violence in politics. The theme revolves around Klein’s core argument: protecting vulnerable communities demands the willingness to win — and use — political power, even if that requires strategic compromise or discomfort. The episode covers debates over Democratic strategy on government shutdowns, candidate selection in red and purple states, the necessity (and difficulty) of building broad coalitions, and the moral complexities posed by recent political violence, notably the assassination of right-wing figure Charlie Kirk.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Polarized Reception of Klein’s Arguments (02:08–03:36)

• Klein discusses being a "lightning rod" for criticism from both left and right for his recent writings and comments — particularly regarding Democratic strategies toward government shutdowns, the need to broaden the tent, and the appropriate response to political violence.
• Quote:
  "We sort of get a very warped vision of the public when we log on to X or Bluesky and say that's the reaction. When you're inside something, you see something very different.” — Ezra Klein (02:17)

2. The Shutdown Strategy Debate (03:36–15:54)

• Miller challenges Klein’s call for Democrats to refuse to cooperate with Trump on the budget, questioning the endgame. Klein clarifies his argument: Democrats have a moral responsibility to oppose the “corruption” of institutions under Trump — but recognizes the risks and limitations of such a move.
• Klein on the healthcare-vs.-corruption framing for a shutdown:
  "Imagine a world in which they're executing a very real crackdown in Chicago... but they're like, yeah, we'll delay the Affordable Care Act cuts. Are Chuck Schumer and Hakeem Jeffries going to tell all of their members to vote for this at a time when the entire base is freaking out over the end of the country?" (09:01)
• On the point of losing as an opposition party:
  "You barely hear from them because there's no particular reason for anybody to listen to them. They're not doing anything." (15:45)

Notable Moment

• Miller and Klein agree both feel “ambivalently for” Klein’s more confrontational shutdown approach—acknowledging the risks and lack of clarity in Democratic leadership or communications strategy. (15:54)

3. Democractic Ambivalence, Normalcy, and the Split Mindset (18:20–23:07)

• Miller asks about Democrats’ private and public sense of crisis. Klein describes a split between those who see danger but believe things will muddle along, versus those believing in a true "authoritarian breakthrough."
• Klein:
  "The biggest divide in their caucus is between the people who think this is bad, but we will kind of get through it just fine... and the ones who don't.” (18:40)
• There’s little “theatrical opposition,” he observes, which leaves the party looking unresponsive and flat-footed.

4. Broadening the Democratic Tent: Electoral Strategy (24:27–36:07)

• Miller segues to Klein’s controversial argument about nominating more culturally conservative Democrats in red states.
  • Cites examples of past Democratic victories with pro-life or culturally moderate candidates.
  • Klein argues, sometimes sharply, that “protecting people means winning power,” and that failure to expand the coalition leaves vulnerable communities unprotected.
• Quote:
  “We are failing to protect everybody we say we are here to protect and we are failing to protect them because we have lost power. And I think losing power in that way... should force us in a disciplined fashion to ask what do we need to do to win it back?” — Ezra Klein (28:27)
  • He stresses the need to “work with public opinion as it exists,” not as activists or donors would ideally like it to be.

Memorable Exchange

• On why strategists avoid this obvious approach:
  "I think the analysis you need here is sociological, not political... The first thing they worry about is what the people around them will think about them and how they will be treated and if they can get future jobs." — Klein (32:02)
  • Miller’s rejoinder: "Democratic strategists get paid a lot of money to win races ... it's time to nut up." (35:00)

5. Political Violence and Dehumanization After Charlie Kirk’s Assassination (38:16–69:57)

• Klein reflects on his much-debated column defending the right to peaceful political engagement after Kirk’s murder.
  • Clarifies what he meant by “doing politics the right way” (38:16) — participating in public debate, not violence.
  • Klein steadfastly refused to "litigate all [his] disagreements" with Kirk in the hours after his murder:
    "The 12 hours after somebody is publicly murdered for participating in politics is not the time when you need to fully litigate all your disagreements with them.” (38:48)
• Miller and Klein warn about the rise of dehumanizing rhetoric on both sides:
  • Miller: "There is a decent chunk of people on the left that have decided to dehumanize anybody that voted for Donald Trump... and I think that takes us to a very dangerous place.” (42:27)
• Klein draws a line between “political community” and “deplorables” rhetoric:
  • Laments the 44% of Harris voters willing to cut off family for politics (43:49)
• Political violence is contagious:
  • Klein connects Luigi Mangione’s murder of Brian Thompson and the celebratory memes to the risk of a cycle of violence (55:08).
  • "Political violence is always wrong. Political violence is profoundly wrong. It is an attack on all of us and it will very, very, very quickly become an attack on all of us." (62:54)
• Warns of a dangerously combustible moment:
  • "If something doesn't break the cycle... we seem to be moving into that scenario." (57:06, 59:37)

6. Can the Left Relearn Broad Coalition Politics? (66:30–69:57)

• Miller describes the dilemma of “moral difference” in family and national politics — but insists “we have to figure out a way to live together.”
• Klein situates this struggle as the ongoing work and burden of American democracy.
  "That is the story... of this country, right? The periods of time in which you wouldn't say that was true, in which the kind of agreements of politics were pretty well firmed up. Those are short periods of time." (68:00)
• Klein:
  "I don't have a problem saying I believe a lot of what Charlie Crook believed is fundamentally immoral... and I'm still somehow in political community with him." (69:07)

7. Quickfire: 2028 Democratic Hopefuls & Klein’s Own Ambitions? (70:01–70:59)

• Miller reads aloud speculation from the "Ezra Klein subreddit" about Klein becoming a future Democratic candidate. Klein laughs it off with a “Shermanesque denial.” (70:51)
• Both are underwhelmed by the current slate of contenders, but Miller names a few he finds promising.

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On the necessity of winning:
  "Politics is about winning power and then using that power well. And sometimes to win that power, you have to have a tent big enough that it includes real disagreement.” — Ezra Klein (29:23)

• On party culture:
  "I think we've begun to see the work of politics, the work of being in coalition... as a kind of betrayal. To maintain community is to betray others in your community. And I don't think it's working." — Ezra Klein (44:27)

• On political violence:
  "Violence is contagious. It is viral. ... Political violence has this dimension. And I've been worried for some time." — Ezra Klein (55:08)

• On the work of democracy:
  "The work we are called to democratically is not so much grander or harder than what those who came before us were called to." — Ezra Klein (68:13)

Key Timestamps

• 00:43 – Miller introduces Klein, teases episode topics.
• 02:08 – Klein discusses polarized reactions to his recent comments/columns.
• 03:36–15:54 – Deep dive on the Democratic shutdown strategy and Klein’s controversial column.
• 18:20–23:07 – What Democratic lawmakers are actually thinking and the “peacetime vs. wartime” mentality.
• 24:27–36:07 – The urgent need to broaden the Democratic tent and run culturally moderate/conservative candidates where it matters.
• 38:16–69:57 – Long section on the dangers and moral complexity of political violence, echo chambers, dehumanization, and the Kirk murder.
• 70:01–70:59 – Ezra Klein as future candidate? “Shermanesque denial” and closing laughs.

Memorable Moments

• Ambivalent advocacy: Both host and guest can see both sides of shutdown brinkmanship, providing a rare candor missing in partisan media (15:54).
• Riffing on Democratic culture: Klein: "Everything's high school cafeteria." (36:10)
• On political violence: "Political violence is profoundly wrong. It is an attack on all of us." (62:54)
• Darkly comic moment: Miller: "Democratic strategists get paid a lot of money… and it's time to nut up." (35:00)
• Subreddit speculation: Miller reads a comment about Klein’s “glow up” and presidential potential, which is met with mock embarrassment (70:24).

Final Thoughts

This episode is a masterclass in contemporary political analysis, marked by Klein’s consistent plea for moral seriousness and electoral flexibility. The main message: Protecting the vulnerable isn't about staking out the most righteous position — it's about building coalitions wide enough to actually win and wield power, even amidst polarization and violence.

For progressives, centrists, and anyone who cares about the future of democracy, Klein’s warning is urgent: If you want to protect, you must first govern.