The Bulwark Podcast: Ezra Klein – "The Resistance, Back from the Dead"

Release Date: February 7, 2025

In this compelling episode of The Bulwark Podcast, host Tim Miller engages in an in-depth conversation with Ezra Klein, a renowned opinion columnist at The New York Times, host of The Ezra Klein Show, and co-author of the upcoming book Abundance with Derek Thompson. The discussion delves into the tumultuous landscape of American politics, focusing on the actions and impacts of the Trump administration, Democratic strategies, and the broader cultural battles shaping the nation.

1. Setting the Stage: Democratic Calculations and Trump’s Strategies

Tim Miller opens the conversation by referencing a previous discussion where Klein highlighted top Democrats' skepticism about Trump's portrayal as an existential threat to democracy. Observing the events of the past seven months, Miller probes Klein on whether these Democrats have reconsidered their stance.

Ezra Klein responds thoughtfully, indicating a shift in Democratic sentiment. He notes that Democrats who were initially open to working with Trump under more constructive policies have now moved into outright opposition, viewing Trump as a direct threat to the republic. Klein summarizes this sentiment:

"Trump has gone into a place where he is threatening, I think, both in their view and objectively, the structure of American government itself."
(05:00)

2. Assessing the Threat Level: Between Orange and Red

The discussion transitions to measuring the current threat level to American democracy. Klein classifies it between "orange" and "red," suggesting a precarious balance where Trump’s actions are alarming but not yet at a point of irreversible damage.

"They're between orange and red... If they defy a court order, it's red."
(04:21)

Klein emphasizes the importance of not treating Trump's actions as settled, maintaining a provisional stance that allows for resistance and legal challenges.

3. The Weakness Theory: Evaluating Trump’s Administration

Tim Miller challenges Klein’s perspective by highlighting the aggressive appointments and dismantling efforts spearheaded by Trump, arguing that these actions signify substantial strength rather than weakness.

Klein acknowledges the complexity, asserting that while the administration demonstrates strength in certain areas—like pushing through unfavorable policies—it simultaneously reveals weaknesses, especially legislative ones. He elaborates:

"They are legislatively weak... but they are not willing to go through things in Congress."
(12:51)

4. The FBI Purge: Resistance Within the Bureau

A significant portion of the conversation focuses on the internal struggle within the FBI. Klein explains how Acting Director Brian Driscoll’s resistance against purging agents involved in the January 6th cases has galvanized an internal counterforce within the bureau.

"Driscoll... stiffer spines... created a kind of internal counterforce where now people are trying to fight them."
(28:29)

This resistance complicates Trump’s efforts to exert control, potentially safeguarding the FBI's integrity against political machinations.

5. Energy Policy: Sabotaging Renewable Progress

Klein critiques the Trump administration's energy policies, condemning their attempt to disrupt renewable energy advancements while promoting fossil fuels. He underscores the long-term detrimental effects of such policies on decarbonization efforts.

"They're doing a dirty energy strategy... trying to break that Elon Musk."
(32:24)

He contrasts this with the first Trump administration's initial support for clean energy before pivoting away, highlighting a consistent pattern of undermining sustainable initiatives.

6. Legislative Challenges: Spending Bills and Tax Cuts

The conversation shifts to the Republican Party's struggles in Congress, particularly regarding spending bills and tax cuts. Klein outlines the internal discord within the GOP, citing disagreements on debt reduction and the potential scaling back of essential programs like Medicaid, Medicare, and Social Security to finance tax cuts.

"Steve Bannon said... we are not united... every one of these things is going to be a huge fight that divides huge parts of the party."
(35:29)

Klein predicts impending government shutdowns as House Republicans grapple with crafting cohesive budgets amidst fractured support and lack of Democratic cooperation.

7. Cultural Warfare: Controlling Attention and Shaping Narratives

A pivotal segment explores how Trump and his allies have mastered the art of controlling public attention compared to Democrats. Klein argues that the right's aggressive engagement with media and cultural issues has granted them disproportionate influence over national discourse.

"Trump and his allies fight to control attention the way Democrats don't... there’s a corporate desire to shift."
(38:43)

He contends that Democrats have struggled to resonate culturally, leading to a vacuum filled by more aggressive right-wing narratives and attention-seeking strategies from tech moguls like Elon Musk.

8. Media and Communication: The Role of Social Platforms

Klein discusses the transformative impact of social media on political communication, emphasizing how platforms prioritize engagement-driven content that often exacerbates cultural divisions. He remarks on the rapid rise and fall of cultural movements and the challenges Democrats face in maintaining a consistent and resonant narrative.

"Social media selects for engagement... the more people treat this guy as some mastermind autocrat, the more they're emboldened to keep fighting."
(46:01)

He highlights the instability of modern culture due to instantaneous and volatile communication dynamics, urging Democrats to adapt by authentically engaging with contemporary media outlets and influential personalities.

9. The Rise of Public Figures and Cultural Icons

The dialogue touches upon recent controversial statements by public figures like Kanye West, analyzing their implications for national discourse. Klein interprets such actions as symptomatic of deeper cultural fractures and the allure of extremist rhetoric amid declining institutional trust.

"It's a very thin membrane between doing trolling, racism and being like, 'Oh, I actually don't want to marry outside my race.'"
(50:02)

He warns of the dangers posed by unchecked disinhibition among influential individuals, suggesting a potential escalation of extremist ideologies if left unchallenged.

10. Final Reflections: Navigating a Divided Nation

As the episode draws to a close, Klein reflects on the overarching challenges facing American democracy and culture. He underscores the necessity for Democrats to rebuild trust, engage authentically with cultural currents, and counteract the disinformation and destabilizing strategies employed by the opposition.

"They are trying to purge the FBI, but they are doing a shitty job of it... people should pay a lot of attention to that fight."
(38:43)

Klein concludes with a somber acknowledgment of the current state, advocating for vigilant opposition and the restoration of institutional integrity amidst ongoing political and cultural upheaval.

Notable Quotes

• "Trump has gone into a place where he is threatening, I think, both in their view and objectively, the structure of American government itself."
  Ezra Klein (05:00)

• "They're between orange and red... If they defy a court order, it's red."
  Ezra Klein (04:21)

• "They are legislatively weak... but they are not willing to go through things in Congress."
  Ezra Klein (12:51)

• "Driscoll... stiffer spines... created a kind of internal counterforce where now people are trying to fight them."
  Ezra Klein (28:29)

• "They're doing a dirty energy strategy... trying to break that Elon Musk."
  Ezra Klein (32:24)

• "Steve Bannon said... we are not united... every one of these things is going to be a huge fight that divides huge parts of the party."
  Ezra Klein (35:29)

• "Trump and his allies fight to control attention the way Democrats don't... there’s a corporate desire to shift."
  Ezra Klein (38:43)

• "Social media selects for engagement... the more people treat this guy as some mastermind autocrat, the more they're emboldened to keep fighting."
  Ezra Klein (46:01)

• "It's a very thin membrane between doing trolling, racism and being like, 'Oh, I actually don't want to marry outside my race.'"
  Ezra Klein (50:02)

Conclusion

This episode of The Bulwark Podcast presents a nuanced examination of the current political and cultural climate in the United States. Through insightful dialogue, Ezra Klein articulates the complexities of opposing a resilient yet flawed administration, the internal battles within federal agencies, and the incessant tug-of-war over national narrative and cultural dominance. The conversation underscores the imperative for strategic resistance and adaptive engagement to safeguard liberal democracy amidst escalating partisan and cultural tensions.