The Bulwark Podcast: Franklin Foer on "Elon, the Man Who Ate NASA"

Release Date: July 30, 2025

In this engaging episode of The Bulwark Podcast, host Tim Miller sits down with Frank Foer, a staff writer at The Atlantic, to delve into Foer's insightful article, "The Man Who Ate NASA." The conversation navigates the intricate relationship between Elon Musk and NASA, exploring the evolution of the American space program, the rise of SpaceX, and the broader implications for government and capitalism in space exploration.

1. Setting the Stage: From NASA’s Glory to Privatization

Frank Foer begins by unraveling the often-overlooked origins of Elon Musk's name, linking it intriguingly to the legacy of Nazi rocket scientist Werner von Braun. Foer explains:

[08:36] Frank Foer: "It's just a freaky coincidence that his father has exploited and turned into an origin story... the story goes this way, which is that there was this Nazi rocket scientist, Werner von Braun, who essentially built the American space program."

This anecdote sets the tone for understanding Musk's self-perception as a destined leader in space exploration, deeply influenced by science fiction and historical narratives.

2. NASA's Golden Era and Subsequent Decline

The discussion transitions to NASA's apex during the Apollo program. Tim Miller reflects on Kennedy's ambitious vision:

[15:11] Tim Miller: "We believe in government, therefore we're going to demonstrate the competence of the government in this realm..."

Frank concurs, highlighting the Apollo program's dual role in technological triumph and Cold War diplomacy:

[16:23] Frank Foer: "It wasn't just technology and engineering. It was soft power diplomacy... It really did make the United States quite an attractive proposition."

However, Foer points out NASA's struggles post-Apollo, particularly under Nixon's administration, which shifted focus to the less inspirational space shuttle program:

[20:07] Frank Foer: "NASA hadn't read the room correctly... Napoleon says, okay, here's money for a space shuttle. And so that becomes the program."

This transition marked the beginning of NASA's decline in capturing public imagination and its increased reliance on contractors.

3. The Emergence of SpaceX: Capitalism Meets Space

SpaceX's ascent is portrayed as a blend of relentless innovation and strategic government partnerships. Foer discusses how SpaceX managed to outpace traditional contractors like Boeing:

[25:07] Frank Foer: "SpaceX is an amazing company. And I think Musk is an incredible capitalist... They have created all of these virtuous cycles because he's launching all the time."

Tim Miller adds a critical perspective on the dependency of SpaceX on government contracts:

[26:07] Tim Miller: "SpaceX can provide Internet to people. And so there's a profit motive... But SpaceX endured severe financial crises before Starlink provided a viable revenue stream."

Despite SpaceX's successes, Foer warns of the inherent risks in allowing a single private entity to dominate space infrastructure:

[28:51] Frank Foer: "There is something about defense that is so much more serious... The consequences are so much more serious when the defense of your country is dependent on a limited number of individuals or companies."

4. Capitalism vs. Government: Incentives and Inefficiencies

The dialogue delves into the contrasting dynamics of capitalist incentives versus government inefficiencies. Foer commends SpaceX's innovative edge but criticizes the lack of competition:

[25:07] Frank Foer: "SpaceX is an amazing company... But space inherently attracts the richest people... What’s troubling is the defense aspect and the lack of competition."

Tim Miller defends the capitalist model's merit in fostering resilience:

[24:24] Tim Miller: "SpaceX’s success is partly due to their relentless practice... But it doesn't fully explain why other contractors failed."

Foer agrees, highlighting the systemic issues within government procurement and the challenges in fostering a competitive market:

[28:11] Frank Foer: "The government is not comfortable with building up competition over time... It’s screaming hypocrisy that Musk dismantles state support after benefiting from it."

5. The Debate on Nationalizing SpaceX

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the controversial notion of nationalizing SpaceX, a proposal finding rare bipartisan support:

[31:41] Tim Miller: "We have the natural monopoly argument and the concern over SpaceX's influence... It makes an argument for nationalization."

Foer, however, contests this idea, advocating for government resilience without over-reliance on a single private entity:

[32:13] Frank Foer: "It's incumbent on the government not to become dependent on single companies... Encourage the development of other companies to create competition."

He underscores the dangers of privatizing critical defense infrastructure:

[33:12] Frank Foer: "Ultimately, the consequences are so much more serious... It’s a lesson that you can’t have your defense totally dependent on a limited number of individuals or companies."

6. Beyond Space: Broader Political and Social Issues

While the core of the conversation centers on Elon Musk and NASA, Foer and Miller briefly touch upon other pressing topics:

• Zelenskyy's Corruption: Foer criticizes Ukrainian President Zelensky for signing a bill that undermines anti-corruption bodies, emphasizing the need for integrity in leadership, especially during conflict.

• Campus Illiberalism: They discuss the rising illiberalism and antisemitism on elite college campuses, with Foer expressing concern over the erosion of intellectual pluralism and the dangers of state overreach in addressing these issues.

• Gaza Humanitarian Crisis: Foer advocates for direct humanitarian aid to Gaza, criticizing the dysfunctional relationship between Israel and the UN that impedes effective relief efforts.

7. Concluding Thoughts: The Complex Legacy of Space Exploration

The episode wraps up with reflections on the intertwined destinies of government and private enterprise in space exploration. Foer emphasizes the importance of maintaining a balance to avoid over-dependence on any single entity, highlighting the lessons from NASA’s history and SpaceX’s rise.

[44:05] Frank Foer: "Space inherently attracts the richest people... But what's troubling is not the space part, it's the defense part... You can't have your defense totally dependent on a limited number of individuals or companies."

Tim Miller and Frank Foer agree that while privatization has its merits, safeguarding national interests requires a diversified and resilient approach to space and defense technologies.

Notable Quotes:

• Frank Foer on Elon’s Origin Story:

  "[08:36] 'It's just a freaky coincidence that his father has exploited and turned into an origin story... the story goes this way, which is that there was this Nazi rocket scientist, Werner von Braun, who essentially built the American space program.'"

• Tim Miller on Government’s Role:

  "[15:11] 'We believe in government, therefore we're going to demonstrate the competence of the government in this realm...'"

• Frank Foer on Nationalization Risks:

  "[33:12] 'Ultimately, the consequences are so much more serious... It’s a lesson that you can’t have your defense totally dependent on a limited number of individuals or companies.'"

This episode offers a nuanced exploration of the delicate balance between government initiatives and private enterprise in advancing human endeavors beyond Earth. Through Frank Foer's expert analysis, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the historical context, current dynamics, and future implications of the ever-evolving space landscape.