The Bulwark Podcast — August 21, 2025

"Garry Kasparov and Jerusalem Demsas: Democracy Can't Defend Itself"

Overview

In this two-part episode, host Sarah Longwell and co-host Tim Miller are joined first by world chess champion and Russian dissident Garry Kasparov, who discusses the global backslide toward authoritarianism, drawing lessons from Russia’s descent and the risks facing American democracy. In the second segment, Jerusalem Demsas, editor-in-chief of The Argument, examines threats to liberalism from both the post-liberal right and left, the challenges of revitalizing American liberalism, and debates among progressives about growth, inclusion, and policy priorities.

The conversation is rich with historical context, blunt warnings, and calls to action, peppered with memorable quotes and a few laughs.

Part 1: Garry Kasparov on the Global Struggle for Democracy

Kasparov’s Journey: From Soviet Chess Champion to Dissident

[02:19–06:16]

• Kasparov’s background: Born in the Soviet Union, early exposure to the West as a chess prodigy. Family was critical of the Soviet regime.
• After becoming the youngest world champion at 22, he shifted his credibility to support Gorbachev’s perestroika reforms.
• Hoped the fall of the USSR was permanent, but saw “the past returning” in the late 1990s and, by 2005, quit chess to fight Putin’s rise.
  • Quote: “In Russia, unlike in chess, the rules kept changing. But the result was the same.” (Kasparov, [04:27])
• Warns that complacency after the Cold War allowed “new forms of evil”—authoritarianism—to rise globally.

Lessons from Russia and the Peril of Complacency

[06:16–10:31]

• Kasparov cautions against direct Russia–U.S. comparisons, but notes a global pattern: regimes with no domestic enemies turn outward, fueling conflict.
• He predicted Russia’s aggression against Ukraine years before it happened by paying attention to Putin’s rhetoric and ambitions.
  • Quote: “Dictators always lie about what they've done, but very often they tell you exactly what they're going to do.” (Kasparov, [08:05])
• Condemns the West for not heeding overt signals from Moscow.

The Fragility of Democracy

[07:02–10:31]

• Russia’s inability to resist Putin, and Americans’ complacency about the health of their own democracy, are deeply linked.
  • Quote: “Democracy is a piece of paper...[it] is what you believe in and how far you're willing to go to defend it.” (Kasparov, [09:15])
• American friends with “contempt for Trump” underestimate the looming threat, especially from a potential Trump second term.

Trump and the Normalization of Authoritarian Tactics

[10:31–13:36]

• Kasparov highlights how Trump normalized unacceptable behavior and shifted American political culture:
  • Withholding tax returns, firing non-loyalists, self-serving partnerships with oligarchs, openly flirting with overextending his term.
• Watergate is now “almost a joke” by comparison.
  • Quote: “Donald Trump has been successfully normalizing things that were unacceptable.” (Kasparov, [11:26])

The Russia–Ukraine–U.S. Triangle and Trump’s Weakness

[15:30–19:42]

• Dismisses the idea of real Trump-driven negotiations; Putin won’t meet Zelensky except for a capitulation.

• “Alaska” (referring to a summit) as a humiliation: “Trump looked...totally unpresidential.”

• European leaders forced to flatter Trump for Ukraine’s sake, showing loss of focus on principles.

  “Trump's ego becomes the centerpiece of American politics and also global politics. I mean, it's not going to end well because at the end of the day, all we know about Trump is that everything he does, everything he says has only two points of interest, monetization and glorification.” (Kasparov, [17:32])

Trump’s Social Media & Ukraine Policy

[19:42–25:32]

• Analyzes Trump’s Nixon–Putin meme: an attempt to look strong, but unconvincing (“Putin is smirking”).
• Trump claims the Ukraine war would never have happened if he were president. Kasparov retorts: Only possible if Trump forced Ukraine’s submission, not because he deterred Putin.
• Partial agreement: Biden was too restrictive on Ukraine’s offensive options.
• Highlights advances in Ukraine's military tech and outmoded U.S. weapons.

What Should America's Role Be?

[25:32–27:01]

• The West, especially the U.S., should help Ukraine severely weaken Russian infrastructure.
• Advocates for lifting restrictions on Ukrainian use of Western weapons and for stronger European (especially energy) sanctions.

Response to U.S. Vice President’s Take on Putin

[28:40–31:56]

• The VP (clip played) characterizes Putin as “soft-spoken” and “careful, deliberate.”
• Kasparov: “Stalin was soft spoken...this is the guy who is responsible for hundreds of thousand, most likely millions of lives, who has no allergy for blood.”
• Challenges narrative that Trump has ever criticized Putin or acted against his interests.

Tucker Carlson, WWII, and the Dangers of Historical Revisionism

[31:56–34:26]

• Kasparov slams nonsense about siding with Hitler over Stalin, reminds listeners of the complex tragic choices smaller European nations faced.
• Warns against the allure of “sliding down” to rationalizing totalitarian figures—notes that Putin today is worse than Hitler in 1938.

Strategies for Defending Democracy

[34:44–37:20]

• The focus shouldn't be on 2028 or Trump’s aspirations for a lifetime presidency, but on imminent threats—especially the 2026 Congressional elections.
• Fears gerrymandering and attacks on voting methods, stating Trump “cannot lose the levels of power.” Congress is the only real check.
• Quote: “We have a person who never recognized his loss in 2020...and now in 2026, he will have all levels of power, including DOJ and FBI.” (Kasparov, [35:38])

Chess as a Metaphor: Magnus Carlsen's Loss

[37:20–39:15]

• Kasparov’s take: chess teaches the dangers of complacency and pride—Magnus Carlsen’s meltdown is a public lesson in losing vigilance.

Part 2: Jerusalem Demsas on Defending and Revitalizing Liberalism

The Argument: Mission and Media Context

[40:12–44:30]

• Demsas describes her new outlet, The Argument, aiming to “revitalize American liberalism”—understood as rule of law, individual freedoms, equality, and pro-growth policies.

• The focus is on substantive arguments for policy—not just “lecturing” about democracy.

• Commissioning diverse writers who embrace positive-sum, pro-equality, pro-growth ideas.

  “There are issues people care about...and instead of just saying you need to care about liberal democracy, we should just explain and argue for the things that we think would make the world a better place.” (Demsas, [41:38])

Positive Liberalism vs. the Post-Liberal Left and Right

[44:30–49:16]

• Demsas is motivated by defending against the “post-liberal right” (identified as a greater, more coherent threat currently) and also opposes illiberal trends on the left—especially anti-growth, anti-immigration, and anti-debate sentiments.

• On the left, she sees a contradiction between espoused pluralism and policies that restrict growth and opportunity—e.g., NIMBYism and anti-business sentiment.

  “Many people on the left would say things like...we want diversity. And then they're also supporting anti growth policies that make it impossible for that to be true.” (Demsas, [45:53])

• Demsas critiques “red–brown alliances”—where both fringes oppose globalization and liberal society from different motives.

Real-World Policy: Zoning, Growth, and Progress

[49:16–54:38]

• Uses Zoran Mamdani in NYC as an example of a left-leaning “pro-growth” politician. Contrasts him with Karen Bass (LA mayor) who has blocked affordable housing construction.

• Demsas’s core critique of the left: anti-growth, anti–change impulses hurt equity and undermine living standards.

  “People who will call themselves liberals [have been] not interested and not available to tolerate this kind of debate.” (Demsas, [59:13])

Liberalism, The Free Press, and Anti-Woke Critiques

[54:38–57:26]

• Demsas distinguishes her project from The Free Press, foregrounding differences on both domestic and foreign policy. Critiques the latter for fueling anti-liberal resurgence and anti–Trump stances that paradoxically boost Trump’s power.

Wokeness and Academic Freedom

[57:26–59:47]

• Admits there were illiberal trends in campus culture but sees a false equivalence between social pressure and state censorship. Emphasizes persuasion and tolerance.
• Cautions against the right’s weaponization of “woke” as a pejorative for any equity-focused initiative.

The Post-Liberal Right’s Vision for America: J.D. Vance

[60:38–67:36]

• Plays tape of J.D. Vance arguing that lineage (“whose ancestors fought in the Civil War”) should weigh more than belief in American values.
• Demsas identifies this as blood-and-soil nationalism—a radical break from decades of American identity.
  • Quote: “What we actually want is like blood and soil nationalism. Like, I'm like, actually so serious.” ([63:06])
• Warns: Vance’s rhetoric is not a gaffe, but “the precursor to someone who really believes...that is more important than anything else that you’re doing.”

Radicalization and the Fragility of American Identity

[64:59–66:11]

• Longwell and Demsas discuss how Vance’s evolution parallels a wider radicalization; critique the white supremacist core of bloodline-based definitions of American identity.
• Demsas doubts Vance’s sincerity, but notes he’s adept at capitalizing on where the movement is going.

Liberalism, Inclusion, and Tolerance: The Mahmoud Khalil Case

[67:36–71:11]

• Demsas brings up the Khalil case to stress that even distasteful or unpopular speech and beliefs need protection if a truly pluralistic society is to persist.
• The “liberal project” is to allow deep difference without violence or exclusion.
  • Quote: “The entire point of liberals...is how do we live with each other when we're so different that those differences could lead us to kill each other?” ([68:45])

Notable Quotes

• Kasparov ([09:15]): “Democracy is a piece of paper...[it] is what you believe in and how far you're willing to go to defend it.”
• Kasparov ([11:26]): “Donald Trump has been successfully normalizing things that were unacceptable.”
• Kasparov ([17:32]): “Trump's ego becomes the centerpiece of American politics and also global politics.”
• Demsas ([41:38]): “We should just explain and argue for the things that we think would make the world a better place.”
• Demsas ([45:53]): “Many people on the left would say things like...we want diversity. And then they're also supporting anti growth policies that make it impossible for that to be true.”
• Demsas ([63:06]): “What we actually want is like blood and soil nationalism.”

Key Timelines

• [02:19–06:16] — Kasparov shares his Soviet childhood, chess career, and shift to activism.
• [10:31–13:36] — Parallels between Putinism and Trump-era American politics.
• [15:30–19:42] — Update on Russia–Ukraine–U.S. triangle and critique of Trump’s diplomatic performance.
• [28:40–31:56] — Response to U.S. VP’s soft take on Putin, challenge to Trump’s supposed toughness.
• [40:12–44:30] — Demsas introduces The Argument and its mission.
• [49:16–54:38] — Analysis of housing policy as a litmus test of real liberal values on the left.
• [60:38–67:36] — Dissection of J.D. Vance’s nationalist rhetoric and its dangers.
• [68:45–71:11] — Defense of pluralism and liberal principles via the Khalil case.

Closing

The episode concludes with calls for vigilance, reminders that liberal democracy requires constant, intentional defense—and a preview of the next show.

For listeners who missed the episode, this summary captures both the gravity and engagement of the discussion—connecting transnational struggles over democracy and identity, with a focus on what’s at stake and what can be done.