← The Bulwark Podcast
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- [00:00]
Governor Tim Walz
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- [01:30]
Tim Miller
All right, everybody, we got a double header for you. Today was planning on going deep on Tucker Carlson with my friend Jason Zengerly of the New Yorker, but obviously the news out of Minnesota is so urgent and I'm really grateful that we had the chance to talk to Governor Tim Walz this morning bright and early. He was out there voting in a special election and then came straight to talk with us. And it was really a pleasure. It's the first time I got to talk to him. Stick around for both. Segment two will be Jason Sangerly and up next, Governor Tim Walz. Hello. Welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Delighted to welcome to the show the Governor of Minnesota and former nominee for Vice President of the United States. It's Tim. Tim Walz. Governor Walz, you wrote in the Wall Street Journal yesterday about the assault on Minnesota and I just want to start there. You know, what is the latest on the ground have we noticed any change since last night?
- [02:30]
Governor Tim Walz
Yeah. Well, good to be with you, Tim, and thanks for all the coverage of this. We're really, you know, we're appreciative folks are out there. Look, I don't know how to describe it other than an assault. I've never witnessed anything like this. And I think as good as the reporting has been, it doesn't touch just every little issue in our, our children watching people get drug. I mean, everyone here has a trauma response. And then of course, with Renee and Alex's murder, pretty overwhelming. But I have to say what you witnessed was, is what massive, organized nonviolent resistance did. To be very clear, there's a change in tone and we'll see. I'm going to meet here later today with Tom Ullman. I understand Greg Bobino is, is gone. You know, and that's a good riddance one. But it doesn't change the fact that the posture is still the same, that this is a unorganized, untrained, dangerous force on the streets that has nothing do with either immigration or law enforcement. So I'll tell you today is there's, there's a bit of optimism, but there's such a sense of resolve. And I would say this is the Minnesota kind of attitude. A lot of folks think winter's over in March. Minnesotans don't let their guard down till May. And I'm telling you, these folks that are out there on the streets, they're very skeptical and rightfully so. So the mood is there's a hint of hope and optimism, but there is a resolve that says, you know, the end of this is not Greg Bevino leaving. The end of this is a sane policy on how you do immigration reform and stop an attack by the federal government on a state.
- [03:57]
Tim Miller
It's that point. You said you're going to meet with Tom Holman later today. I concur that getting rid of little Greg is a plus. But the demand was to get ICE out and CBP out and to replace him with Tom Homan who, you know, has been in his own right, pretty incendiary on Fox and you know, has his own baggage on one wondering if you think that's a satisfactory change for starters. And when you meet with them, what, what you're going to ask them about.
- [04:22]
Governor Tim Walz
Well, look, I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt. And Tim, I think you recognize this and I've heard you, I think you have the vibe, if you will, of this one on this. This White House makes decisions based on Emotions and non reality that we're living in. I am in a position right now where I want to be very careful to continue to stand up and we won't give an inch, but not to poke the bear. We don't need it. My hope is with Tom Holman is different from Greg Bevino and these, you know, these folks on the streets that are just amateurs that he is a true, you know, law enforcement professional. You know, I certainly wouldn't agree with his ideology on things, but I think what he understands is this thing turned into a disaster for them. Their most popular issue on immigration, the bottom has fallen out on them. And look, I would like to think humanity is why they called me and said, we want to get out of this. But you and I both know it's probably not what it was. But I don't care. Whatever it takes at this point to get to the right space. And so my guess is, is that Tom Holman, if you really want to enforce immigration, if you really want to get the worst of the worst, you coordinate with local folks, you coordinate with our bca and you pick these people up when they're not suspecting it in the middle of the night where no shots are fired. You heard the police chief and, you know, say that we've taken 900 guns off the streets in Minneapolis last year and didn't fire a single shot. Same thing with my state troopers. So, look, I think this is an opportunity. I think the politics for the White House is they cannot afford to see tear gas on the streets, and they certainly can't afford to see another incident like we saw on Saturday morning. So I think they're serious about this. Here's my fear, Tim. Do they just shift this nightmare somewhere else? Do they shift it to Janet Mills? I don't think they'll shift it to Philly because they found out how damn tough people are in Minneapolis, and I think Philly's ready. So we got work to do. The good news is it looks like Congress is waking up. You know, that the call when Chuck Schumer said we're not going to fund them, that was music to all of our ears. Because for Christ's sake, that's. The bar is really low here for success, but that's success.
- [06:17]
Tim Miller
Speaking of low bar, not murdering people is a pretty low bar, I think. One thing I would ask Tom Homan, if I were in your shoes, is also ending just the harassment, the racial profiling, going after people based on how they look, on their accent, the harassment of protesters. And I don't see how the resistance to this can stop unless they stop infringing on the rights of people that aren't doing anything that aren't criminals.
- [06:42]
Governor Tim Walz
Yeah, and that's what's foundational. Look, we added some folks. We added the second Amendment, folks. I've been screaming where the. Don't tread on me folks. Well, they're showing up a little bit on this, but, yeah, you're exactly right. And I'm going to ask. And I didn't on the call because I was very specific. We need a full independent investigation of these murders and accountability, and we need them out of here. But I'm going to ask Tom Holman. You spoke about this. You know, the insult just to the soul of this. I mean, this is moral injury that we're living through. They still have an active federal investigation into the wife of Renee Good. And that is demented shit right there. And that investigation is one that just. I mean, it is beyond the pale. And the average Minnesotans are so horrified by it. So, look, there's things that they could do today, in addition to getting rid of Bavino, that we need to see. And I don't think they have a lot of time to do this because this thing has grown. My faith has always been here with Minnesotans, but I feel, you know, the rest of the country coming to our aid.
- [07:40]
Tim Miller
All right. Speaking of that independent investigation, the first step in an independent investigation is knowing who actually shot Alex Preddy. We still don't know. Do you know?
- [07:50]
Governor Tim Walz
No, I do not know. I don't know where they're at. I don't know their names. I don't have anything. Tim, I think you summed this up. This is the world we're living in. The idea that you saw this, we all saw it, and then you watch Kristi Noem do that, I mean, I think will go down in history as one of the most egregious things ever to come out of administration. The way they talked about this. But the worst part of it was basically sweeping this crime scene, keeping us out of there. We were ready for this after Renee.
- [08:17]
Jason Zengerly
Good.
- [08:17]
Governor Tim Walz
So my professionals at the Bureau of Criminal Apprehension showed up with a court order that said we would be allowed on there to gather that, and we were still kept out. So, yeah, I don't know. And you know how these crime scenes work. You ruin the evidence, you know, you don't know what's there. I have a pretty good idea who did this, what they did, and what should come out of this. But when you do an investigation like this. What precipitated it? Were there more things there? What are we missing? We're not getting to see any of that. Gaslighting us to say, look, we're not very good at handling stuff on the streets where we murder your people, but we'll handle the investigation like true professionals. They don't even have a crime lab. And. And here's what's telling, and I hope you know your viewers get this. The FBI is not involved in this because they wouldn't even touch it. They knew this was such a horrible thing. It's not that the FBI is collaborating with dhs. The FBI is just saying, not on us. This is terrible.
- [09:11]
Tim Miller
DHS is their own little internal HSI that's doing this stuff. So here's my thing, though, about not knowing who killed Alex Freddie, you can't have reconciliation without transparency. I don't understand how people of Minnesota can accept the word of this administration about how they're going to change their tactics if they don't tell us what happened. They pay me and you, the taxpayers, pay those agents that were in the streets of Minnesota. And you cannot have public servants anonymous and masked and murdering our fellow Americans like it's unacceptable. We have to know who did it, and we have to have an independent investigation. The fact that they haven't even told the governor of Minnesota who did this is insane.
- [09:51]
Governor Tim Walz
Yeah. And we don't know where they're at. I'm assuming they're out of state. Look, I know this is gonna be a tough one for folks, and I don't know if it's the direct analogy on this is, but the egregious harm that has been done directly to Minnesota, but by the rest of the country, by this is. I don't see how you end this without some type of truth and reconciliation like we saw in South Africa after some of this. Stu, I can't express to people just how horrific this is to have these folks on the streets in their mask. And. And Tim, just for the contrast to this, you know that good policing, and we dealt with this after the murder of George Floyd. Good policing is building trust. All that stuff you saw at the Whipple Building, the federal building where Bovino had his headquarters and stuff. Every day you saw these guys rushing out and yelling and throwing smoke canisters, whatever. We got them out of there. And when the National Guard came in, what you saw yesterday was unmasked professionals from our state handing out hot chocolate, coffee and donuts. And now the protesters today are asking us if they can Deliver homemade food back to the National Guard who are out there cold, too. And there's a relationship, and the Guard knows that those people have the right to sit there and protest and do whatever they need. That change is just so dramatic. So my hope is, is that Holman gets that. But I'm with you, Tim. If they think we're not bringing these folks back, you know, if it goes through the process, the grand jury says, let's indict them, they should come back here. Derek Chauvin sitting in prison because he murdered George Floyd. Look, I'm not on the jury, and I don't want to take this thing, but I'm telling you, we're going to do a full investigation. And if the folks who did this, which you saw with your eyes, they need to be held accountable, and they're not getting out of this.
- [11:32]
Tim Miller
Has that investigation started?
- [11:35]
Governor Tim Walz
We're doing what we can do. We were able to get out there the next day. We being the bca, we're gathering evidence. The same thing with Renee Good. And the Hennepin county prosecutor is working on this. The attorney general is doing it, and we will do this, and we do it well. I think these folks think somehow, you know, they're getting out of this. Let's say they stall us for three years. They're still coming back. We're still going to find out who it is, and they're still going to be. Because if you don't, that's foundational to our democracy. We lose it all if we don't do this.
- [12:05]
Tim Miller
Yeah. It's a free country. Right. And people that work, work for the government. You know this. I get frustrated when you hear from the other side, them saying, well, they have received threats and they've been doxxed. And I don't support threats. I don't support doxxing. I know you don't, but you've received threats. You've received doxxing. Judges have, your police officers have. And you know, they're transparent and they show their face and they show their name.
- [12:26]
Governor Tim Walz
My best friend and speaker of the House was murdered over political issues here earlier in the summer. And I tell you know, your listeners to understand the trauma in Minnesota, I can't even explain it to you. To have our most popular politician murdered with her and her husband and her dog over someone that has a diatribe over abortion. And then for Republicans to somehow say, oh, maybe the governor's behind this. What is Kristi Noem's first thing on this is this is on the governor he talked them into this. Look, they are running this stuff up in their reality, but they came up against what democracy looks like. I think they thought they could steamroll this. I think they thought that they would get weak resistance or they would try and provoke violence. Neither of those things happen. And look, in a world where it's really hard, Tim, to find some hope and optimism on this, people of Minnesota won this thing in 40 below. Winner at least won this first battle. I want to be very careful. Nothing has changed here. As far as I know. They're still out on the streets. We'll see today. And we'll see if Tom Holman changes the entire approach to what they're doing.
- [13:27]
Tim Miller
Amen to that. On the peaceful protests, by the way, they wanted riots and just unbelievable bravery. And I'm so proud of your citizens. And we're watching.
- [13:35]
Governor Tim Walz
Me, too. And I'll tell you how proud I am. I'll tell you, if anybody deserves a Nobel Peace Prize, it's the people of Minnesota.
- [13:40]
Tim Miller
To that, I want to ask you about a couple of phone calls you've had to have. None of them pleasant, I assume, first with the president. He said in his statement that you guys are on a similar wavelength, wondering if you agree with that and what the phone call is like.
- [13:54]
Governor Tim Walz
Well, look, and I will just say, and I've got a good team around me. You can imagine, Tim, I am furious. I'm angry. I'm trying to contain my emotions on this. And I told the president that this has got to end. And I think when he thinks on the wavelength, he says, yeah, I agree, this has to end. Now, I don't actually know what his end state looks like compared to my end state, but we both agree that this needs to end. And then, you know, he was quoting statistics and he said, well, we've already pulled 13,000. Our local media has done a wonderful job of this. All of these are lies, Jim. They're putting up pictures of some of the worst of the worst, the one that they're bragging about. We arrested him and he was in a Minnesota prison for years, and we handed him over to them. So this is not like they were out. Oh, we raided a house and found this deep criminal. So I'm trying to tell him, I said, Mr. President, you're getting really bad advice. And as far as detainers go, meaning you have someone in a prison here. We have about 8,000, one of the lowest incarceration rates in the country. And of those 8,000, 207 are not documented. We're more than happy. And we always do. If there's a detainer, when they get time to be released from our prisons, we always and have for decades alert ICE to come pick them up. But what you saw this week is we had a rural, conservative county and a sheriff had a guy that was in his jail, served his time. There is no legal way to hold him further. So he did what he has the authority to do. He's not a sanctuary county. He called ICE and said, come pick him up. They said, we can't. We're busy in Minneapolis. And so the absurdity of this, you had someone who shouldn't be here. And we can all agree that if you are a criminal and shouldn't be here, we should process you for that. We agree with that. Minnesotans agree with that. They didn't show up because they were busy harassing people like Alex. And it's just ludicrous.
- [15:42]
Tim Miller
I saw some of the conservatives I follow online. Their response to that is, well, that's not true about Hennepin county and Minneapolis St. Paul Corrections facilities. They're not cooperating the same way these other ones are. What's your response to that?
- [15:56]
Governor Tim Walz
It is different on those that on the retainers that they're not. But I will say this, they are following the law. And what gets mixed up in this is that they say, oh, you know, the fake straw man, you just don't care about security and you want some. And then they bring it up where an undocumented person committed a crime. None of us want those folks here, but a lot of these folks are in there on misdemeanors. And again, immigration issues are civil. And so a lot of times these counties are not going to hold them extra time. A lot of the things they come to me is they want us to do their job. I'm not going to do your job. And the one thing you've seen in this is you have to have trust in the community. If we were out there acting like they act, we would never have any cooperation with our citizens of getting things done. So the counties do have their ability. They have their own sovereignty. If there's a state law passed that doesn't allow that to happen, we can have that conversation. But that's not how it works. This is local democracy the same way. I don't tell these conservative counties that they can't cooperate, they can.
- [16:55]
Tim Miller
The Trump call had to be pretty weird, though, right? What was it like?
- [17:00]
Governor Tim Walz
Yeah, I think so. Look, I mean, here's what's weird about it. Tim, is that did he knows you have to work together. But it is a strange thing as an individual human being. He calls me the R word. He makes up things that I'm corrupt, like there's something seriously wrong with this guy. And then you get a call that, you know, we got to work together. And look, I'm probably guilty of that, too, because I call them things. I just think I can probably back my. My comments up a little bit. But I think, and this is where I am very hopeful for the president to make that call to tell me he will look into giving us back the cases, you know, partnering with them and reducing the numbers. I'm not going to say I'm grateful because you started this fire. You don't get credit for putting it out after you started it. But I am going to say, especially in these times, that they are working for a solution. And again, I won't pretend to look into their hearts. I think I know on this. I just care that they end up in the same place. Where I want to end up is. Quit hassling our citizens. Follow the Constitution. Get these folks out of here and make the folks who shot Alex and Renee accountable for what they did.
- [18:04]
Tim Miller
I've been cheerleading you the last two weeks. Can I give you my one bone that I've got to pick with you, though, if we're going to hang out?
- [18:09]
Governor Tim Walz
Yeah. I have noticed in the past that you have been able to do that.
- [18:13]
Tim Miller
I do have a couple bones. I do have a couple of bones. Go to. I appreciate you coming on, particularly with J.D. vance. You'd be on the debate stage with him. He's current vice president. He shared a Stephen Miller post this week calling Alex Preddy an assassin. He came to your state and lied about your law enforcement. You got to look back about being on the debate stage with him and thinking, man, you really maybe gave this person a little too much of the benefit of the doubt. And assuming good faith was maybe a mistake with J.D. vance.
- [18:41]
Governor Tim Walz
Look, I'll own it. But, Tim, you've been around this long enough. Know, when you're on a ticket, you take your orders. Look, I have agency on that, meaning I could have in this, but I am a good team player. And I will say this. I never kidded anybody about debates. I don't, like, get joy out of, like, beating someone in this whatever. And I said the worst people, I think are debates or teachers where I try to find reconciliation. And I think he was, well prepped. It was strange to me to be in the presence of someone Who? I couldn't see a tell on him when he lied. It was so smooth. Usually you can see it, like with me, I'm like, oh, I'm a terrible liar. I can't. I'm a terrible poker player. And so I think the whole idea was there is that look again, when they fact checked it, I think he had 38 misstatements.
- [19:22]
Jason Zengerly
They said I had two.
- [19:23]
Governor Tim Walz
One of them was that Trump doesn't pay taxes. I'll stand by that. But yes, I do. In retrospect wise, I don't know, and you and I both know this, how much does a vice presidential debate matter in this? But I live with it because, look, don't think I don't. And I've said this before, I own this. I started talking about it in January and I was out there and I got some criticism about this. People ask me, what would you have done differently? Well, we would have won and we didn't. Which means you do own some of that. I can't just blame it all, you know, the electorate didn't get it. There were things that weren't there. And so part of that was me. But I know who I am. I, I'm really effective and was really effective as a member of Congress because I was one of the more bipartisan members. So this idea that I am more than willing to reach, to find compromise, and I do see this as servant leadership and I don't see it as a sense of power. He was good at that. And I mean, he's smooth. I never claimed to do that, but I'm pretty effective. But I'll take the criticism.
- [20:19]
Tim Miller
I'm for bipartisanship. Here's the problem. I'm for bipartisanship.
- [20:22]
Jason Zengerly
Yes, I would beat the shit out.
- [20:23]
Governor Tim Walz
Of him now if I could and I would call that out. I mean, that's just different in verbally going at it. My argument is much better. Making the case that housing prices are up because of immigration and that we should build on federal lands. It was such a crazy thing. But then when I watched him, I got sucked into that. And if you remember, this was right in that moment of eating dogs and cats. I took that bait and thought that that was the argument of how outrageous it was. That was not the argument.
- [20:49]
Tim Miller
And he said that your cops are liars.
- [20:51]
Governor Tim Walz
They all did. That's exactly right. That this is the problem with them. And well, the president said it, that we told them to stand down. Do you think they would do that? Do you think that police would not protect citizens no matter if I'm like, oh, don't do this. This is the whole paradox with these guys. They don't back the blue. They don't back police. January 6th proved that. Fanon and the rest of those guys will tell you that they back the blue when you're with them. They're not liking it now. And I'll tell you what they're angry about is you got folks like Chief o' Hara understanding and calling this crap out and saying, this isn't how it works. And that man had the hardest job in America to try and restore TR in a police department after George Floyd was murdered and laid on that street for nine and a half minutes because that's still a tough situation here. And look, we're still grappling with the fallouts of what happened with George Floyd. And I think there's a. There's an internal trauma here, which I think makes what you're seeing now even more impressive that folks have stayed peaceful.
- [21:46]
Tim Miller
I want to ask if you had a chance to talk to a family of the Preddy families or to Renee Goods family and. And what folks who are listening can do to be helpful.
- [21:54]
Jason Zengerly
Helpful.
- [21:54]
Governor Tim Walz
Yeah. Well, thank you for asking that. And I have to say, media and what I'm seeing is both online and traditional, has really done a good job of telling Alex's story, telling Renee's story. And look, when I talk to the parents right away, and I never understand where this courage comes from. They're absolutely shattered, but they were absolutely adamant. And the thing that they told me, and it's why every time I get on these interviews, and I appreciate you saying that, is they said, look, the world knows how he died. You need to tell him how he lived. And so yesterday, I spent an hour with all of his co workers who are totally traumatized. And these are the toughest people you'll find. They're ICU nurses in a veterans hospital, one of the biggest in America, and they're traumatized by this, but they just wanted to tell the story. And what they said about Alex, they said his sense of moral clarity was so big, the guy's a gun owner and everything they said. But he understood what it meant on the Constitution in a really deep manner. And one of his colleagues in the family said the minute they push that woman to the ground, that Alex had no other choice, because just as sure as he breathes, he was going to go and put himself in between. And what I think you saw was, is these folks tried to bring this. This maga, this tough guy or whatever and what you found out was the real strength, the real decency in the heart of America are these protesters. And two of the best examples are Alex and Rene. And so I'm proud of Minnesota in this moment. I'm heartbroken for him. We are all just beat and, you know, we had the Annunciation shooting. I'm, you know, we're dealing with that. But these parents wanted America to know our son was a good man. He was doing the right thing. He couldn't do anything else except be there. And I think they want that told.
- [23:34]
Tim Miller
All right. Governor Tim Walls. I appreciate all the time, man. Let's do it again, hopefully in less tragic circumstances down the line.
- [23:41]
Governor Tim Walz
Yeah, I'd love to come back. I appreciate your work, too. I, I think you've got the perspective that helps bring some folks in who, who might not be as engaged. So keep up the good work and.
- [23:49]
Tim Miller
All right. I appreciate it, Darren. We'll see you soon.
- [23:51]
Governor Tim Walz
Thanks.
- [23:51]
Tim Miller
All right. Thanks to Governor Tim Walls. Up next, the New Yorkers. Jason Zingerly. Finally, at long last, winter has come to New Orleans. It has been cold as balls here this week. And that means it's cozy night in season. And when it's cold and it's cozy night in season, and also you're just doom scrolling all day about the worst people in the world in the evening, sometimes it's nice to turn to a bottle of wine. And we've done that this week with our friends at Naked Wines. This podcast is sponsored by Naked Wines. Naked Wines is a wine club that directly connects you to the world's best independent winemakers so you can get world class wine delivered straight to your door. You can use our code thebullwerk for the code and password@nakedwines.com and get 100 bucks off your first order. That's six bottles of wine for just $39.99. Naked Wines brings you these amazing wines straight from the winery at up to 60% less on what you pay in store. By cutting out extra costs, like middlemen markups, winemakers can pass those savings on to you without skimping on quality. For me, the Naked Wines is nice because I just like trying new stuff. All right. I was a contrarian when I lived in the Bay Area. All of my work friends when I lived in Oakland started putting wine fridges in their kitchen and they would sound kind of obnoxious when they talked about it. And my all boys school contrarian nature kicked in and I just sort of went the other way and stopped drinking wine altogether. But it's still nice to try different things. That part's fun without being snooty about it. And Naked Wines allows me to do that. We can have a little subscription, get different stuff, try it out, see what you like. Pinot Noir is not for me, but the rest of them pretty damn good. Get the best wine at the best price with Naked Wines. Now is the time to join Naked Wines community. Head to nakedwines.com the bulwark and click enter voucher. Then put in my code thebullwark for both the code and password. For 100 bucks off your first order, that's six bottles for only $39.99 with shipping included, that's 100 bucks off your first six bottles. @nakedwines.com thebullwork Use the code and password the bulwark for six bottles of wine for $39.99. All right, we are back. He is a staff writer at the New Yorker. Fancy. He's the author of the brand new book Hated by All the Right People, Tucker Carlson and the Unraveling of the Conservative Mind. It's Jason Zingerley. What's up, man? Hey, Jim.
- [26:26]
Jason Zengerly
How are you?
- [26:27]
Tim Miller
I'm doing well. Usually if you'd be on, we'd be doing a little basketball talk, you know, but unfortunately, we got a lot of news. You got a new book out. And before we got to Tucker, I wanted to pick your brain on another one of the favorites of the pod, a guy named Stephen Miller. You wrote a long profile about him last summer. The ruthless ambition of Stephen Miller. One of the questions you kind of went over was like, could this little guy really hold on to power for the whole second term? And I kind of feel like we're at an inflection point on that right now.
- [26:59]
Jason Zengerly
Yeah, we might be. It is interesting the way, the way Trump seems to be climbing down a little bit on. On some of these ICE actions. And, you know, I saw that he met with Noam and Corey Lewandowski last night at the White House, and. And Miller was not there for that meeting. I don't know what that means. This is clearly something that Miller is behind he wants. I mean, he's, you know, for all intents and purposes, he runs dhs, not gnome. So this, this is his. This is his baby. And he's, you know, he's the one who's really the committed ideologue on immigration, much, much more so than the president, you know, and Trump is, you know, waffled here and there. You've seen him you know, supporting H1BS, things like that. The first round of ICE raids, you know, when they went after agricultural workers, Trump, you know, sort of seemed to want to back away from that before Miller stiffened his spine and he went, he stuck with it. It'll be really interesting to see if Trump decides that Miller is a liability here and that his approach to immigration is a liability, because it's clearly, you know, costing him in the polls. It seems to be costing him some support up, up on the Hill with Republicans. And this is what Miller wants. And, you know, the entire kind of swaggering approach, you know, that's Stephen Miller. And Trump, I think, was for that, was going along with it when it, you know, when it wasn't costing him, but now, now that it's costing him. Yeah, I could, I could see, I could see it being a tough time for Miller.
- [28:25]
Tim Miller
Something I just can't get my head around is like, how Donald Trump tolerates being around Stephen Miller. Like, he's not really the type of personality that Trump is usually drawn to. I mean, he's extremely off putting. You could see Trump kind of wanting to give him a swirly a little bit. And so how does Stephen, like, stay in his good graces?
- [28:46]
Jason Zengerly
He's just a really, like, savvy bureaucratic operator. You know, he makes alliances with people who he knows Trump is close to. He was Jeff Sessions and Steve Bannon's boy. Right? I mean, that was, that was how he came into Trump world. And as soon as Bannon and Sessions fell out of favor, he pivoted and he became, you know, Ivanka Trump's boy. And then how did he do that?
- [29:12]
Tim Miller
Just like just brown nosing.
- [29:13]
Jason Zengerly
So as I understand it, he helped her with, you know, some of her own kind of policy projects having to do with like, family leave and stuff like that. You know, she didn't know anything about politics or policy or, you know, the bureaucratic process, and he just kind of, you know, gave her a hand and gotten her good graces. So that when the immigration stuff, stuff, you know, blew up, especially with the family separation, you know, she was opposed to it, but she didn't sort of criticize him personally as much or to her father as she might have if he hadn't gotten in her good graces. Look, he's, he's an incredible sycophant. I mean, the way he talks about Trump publicly. I don't know if you saw the, the Ben Terrace piece in New York magazine this week about Trump's health, but, you know. Oh, yeah, I Think the title of the piece is a Stephen Miller quote, the superhuman President. That's the way he talks about Trump, I think, privately as well. Yeah. And he's just a sycophant around Trump. And I think obviously Trump has a lot of sycophants, but for whatever reason, Miller's stuff resonates with him in a way. And, you know, I think what you were saying about him being off putting, I mean, and wanted to give him a swirly. I mean, Trump kind of does like give him verbal swirlies. Right. And hazes him, you know, and talks about how, you know, if you had your way, the whole country would look like you. Ha ha. Yeah. It's an interesting relationship.
- [30:27]
Tim Miller
Brown shirt, brown nose, I guess is the answer for him. I have one other person that I have to ask you about the profile about recently. They're relevant to what's happening out there right now, which is Marie Gluzenkamperez. She's been kind of a favor of the pod. She's very charming. I mean that in a sincere way, unlike the sarcastic way. I meant it before. I find her charming. I like that she is resistant to kind of the Ivy League lib hive mind on various things. And I think that's a valuable instinct for Democrats if they want to start winning over people who, you know, don't have those sensibilities again. But, man, her response this week to ICE has been pretty, like, alarming. And she voted to continue funding DHS and then gave a statement yesterday or two days ago about how the Democratic politicians egging on the protesters share some responsibility here. And I'm just wondering if you have any insight on that. I know that distancing herself from Biden on immigration is kind of part of her origin story. So maybe she just like, you know, is in lockstep on that. If you have any other thoughts.
- [31:35]
Jason Zengerly
I think that maybe it's more to do with law enforcement and her support of law enforcement, especially in her district and the sentiment among, you know, members of law enforcement or family members or people close to law enforcement. The response isn't exactly the same as, like liberals response, especially when it comes to things like masking and doxing, which I think, you know, most, most Democrats and a lot of people think it's ridiculous people are wearing masks. I think among some people in law enforcement who are not, you know, people who are doing this stuff with ICE in Minnesota, there's more of a defensive masking and a concern about being docs. And I think she's trying to give some voice to that. That's my sense, at least. I don't, I don't think it has as much to do with immigration as much as it has to do with, with law enforcement.
- [32:20]
Tim Miller
All right, we've been talking about that gold. And so it's also important to, to dress warm, to be nice and snuggly. And I've been doing that with my friends at Quint's and I've heard multiple pieces of feedback already from you not knowing that it was Quint's that you liked my gray cable knit sweater yesterday I was wearing it on the podcast. I also thought I was looking cute, so I appreciated the positive feedback. And it's all thanks to our buddies at Quinn's. Quince has everything you need. Men's Mongolian cashmere sweaters, wool coats, leather and suede outerwear that actually hold up to daily wear and still look good. Their outerwear is especially impressive. Thick down jackets, wool coats, and Italian leather that keep you warm when it's actually cold. Each piece is made from premium materials by trusted factories and meet rigorous standards for craftsmanship and ethical production. You know who else has been noticing my quints? Mississippi now's Katie Tur went into the studio a couple weeks ago. She looked at me and she's like, is that a Quint sweater that you're in? Are you wearing quints right now? And I am. And it made me wonder a little bit why Katie Tur isn't a Bulwark plus member while she's listening to the ads. But I think the answer might be that she is. And my ad reads are just so fun. It's like an extra bonus. I hope that's you too. Refresh your winter wardrobe with quince. Go to quince.com thebullwalk for free shipping on your order. And 365 day returns now available in Canada too. That's Q U I-N C-E.com thebullwork free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com thebullwalk now to Tucker Tucker McNear Swanson Carlson.
- [33:51]
Jason Zengerly
I think it's McNear, not McNair, but.
- [33:53]
Tim Miller
Yeah, McNair, I believe. Yeah. Man of the people. Heir to a. What kind of fortune did they. Did they have.
- [34:00]
Jason Zengerly
Oh, there's land. It was middle. You know, he was a rancher. His like great great, great, great, great grandfather. Also Nelly Bowles is great, great, great, great, great grandfather, oddly enough.
- [34:10]
Tim Miller
Really? They're cousins by marriage. I don't know. Is Barry Weins wife.
- [34:14]
Jason Zengerly
Yeah, by marriage. Henry Miller was, like, the largest landowner in the United states in the 19th century. He basically owned a swath of land that went from, like, the Mexican border up to Oregon. Yeah, that's where some of the money came from.
- [34:25]
Tim Miller
I want to start with Tucker origin story stuff which is relevant here at the Bulwark, because as I was reading your book, there's something I didn't know or maybe I'd known and forgotten, which is that he interviewed with Bill Kristol Mondays with Bill Kristol at the Weekly Standard, hoping to get a job, and he got rejected. And it was only on the second interview that he made a good impression. And I feel like this is such a butterfly flapping its wings moment. If only Bill had stuck to his first instinct about Tucker, sure, maybe we wouldn't be here right now, but I don't know. Talk about.
- [34:59]
Jason Zengerly
He would have gone back to Arkansas, you know, eventually would have gone into, like, corporate comms for Walmart or something. When the Arkansas Democrat Gazette, you know, like, contracted, he would have had to do that. You know, he. He came in sort of, you know, had some positive wrecks and just apparently blew that first interview. I mean, Crystal didn't remember a ton about how he blew it, but just that he, He. He blew it. He didn't. He didn't have good stories, good story ideas. And then he lucked out. A guy who was kind of interning for Bill Crystal, and Bill, Crystal's dad that summer, I guess, was writing a book about Crystal's dad, had been like a good friend of Tucker's and kind of went to bat for Tucker. And then Fred Barnes as well. His kids, their Sunday school teacher was Tucker's wife, Susie. And they kind of went to the bat for him and he was given a second interview. And I think he did better on that one. And the rest is history.
- [35:49]
Tim Miller
Great. Fred Barnes has followed. We don't have any Fred Barnes issues here at the Bulwark. We can blame it on him. I kind of want to fast forward to the part that matters about Tucker because I think what he's doing now is a little bit more important than his. It's interesting and fun fodder for people who want to read the book, his time with Rachel Maddow and stuff. But he's particularly relevant in the moment with his new pivot. But I was kind of interested, particularly in the way you wrote about the CNN Crossfire era where Tucker felt very. At least this is, I guess, what he claims. You say he claims, like he didn't like Having to put on the partisan jersey as much as he did. And I do feel like that there's something about that moment and kind of like our media complex that radicalized him a little bit away from his natural instinct of being more of like a kind of contrarian, heterodox type person. Talk about that era, etc.
- [36:44]
Jason Zengerly
Well, I mean, I think he, you know, his. His writing career, that he sort of made his bones as a contrarian. You know, his kind of. His social life in Washington. He was, you know, he was a contrarian. I think people, I think liberals in Washington enjoyed having him around at dinner parties and other things because, you know, he was sort of this outrageous voice. Right. And he would say something that, you know, they could sort of laugh and.
- [37:04]
Tim Miller
Roll their eyes at and he would trash Republican assumption. Like he wrote the famous profile. It's really great. I reread it a year ago about Bush. You know, that was like, pretty withering about George W. Bush.
- [37:14]
Jason Zengerly
Yeah. I mean, he wrote a takedown of Grover Norquist, too. He was great. No, he was. And those were like, gutsy pieces. And, you know, not. Not something that I think a lot of conservative journalists, you know, would have done because they didn't want to, you know, piss in the tent. But at Crossfire, he, you know, his job was to, you know, represent the right and essentially represent the Republican Party. And in that debate format, he kind of had to tow a partisan line. That I think was difficult for him. It wasn't that difficult. Like, he was cashing the paychecks and he liked being on tv.
- [37:46]
Tim Miller
Sure.
- [37:46]
Jason Zengerly
But. But I think it was a real problem with. With the war in Iraq. And I think, you know, he had some private doubts about it and he felt just constrained about saying them publicly. He felt like he couldn't both in. In the job he had to do on CNN where, you know, it's every night he's debating with Paul Bagala and James Carville about whether we should go to war in Iraq. Like he kind of has to say we should because that's what the Bush administration is saying. And also, it didn't help that, you know, Robert Novak was the other conservative who I think maybe by dint of seniority was allowed to kind of be a little bit more free and voicing his own doubts about. About that invasion.
- [38:23]
Tim Miller
It is interesting, though, like you said, right, that like, basically his agent, CNN and like, the powers that be, like, that was his issue. It's funny to think about Tucker now, but, like, the concern about him as a news performer was that, like, he wouldn't tow the party line and that's what they wanted for that show.
- [38:40]
Jason Zengerly
Yeah, yeah. No, he was a. You know, he was a good soldier. And, you know, I think like, to his credit, you know, he. He voiced his opposition to the war much sooner than I think, almost any other conservative funded who had supported it. I mean, he. You know, within a year, he was saying it was a mistake and he was embarrassed that he'd ever supported it. I mean, certainly recanted a lot earlier than Bill Kristol and other people at the Standard did, if they. If they ever did. You know, that was like a real inflection point for him in terms of the way he. He just thought ideologically, like, you know, he had spent the first part of his career being very much in step with, you know, guys like Crystal and people at the Standard and wanting to, you know, excommunicate Pat Buchanan from polite society and the conservative movement. And then after Iraq, I think, you know, he. He saw that Buchanan had been right, and he started to think, all right, well, what else might this guy have been right about? And he started to kind of shift his positions on immigration and other things. And then the Jon Stewart episode, You know, I mean, this book is not like a biography of Tucker, per se. It's more. It's more, you know, it's about his professional life to kind of tell this larger story of conservative media and conservative politics. But after the Stewart humiliation, it engendered some resentment in him towards, you know, his. His friends kind of in elite media circles, elite political circles, who he felt didn't really come to his aid the way he would have liked them to. And I think that that resentment, you know, kind of. Of grew over the years as his own professional struggles increased, and, you know, eventually it kind of gained full flower and, you know, MAGA and trunk.
- [40:11]
Tim Miller
The other part from that era that's interesting is you like this. This clip goes around all the time, which is Tucker just witheringly taking down Bill O'Reilly for being a fake vanguard of the people, you know, and it's like every critique he has of Bill O'Reilly, like, is relevant to him now. Like, you know, where he basically talks about how he's to pretend like he's populist and eventually that the mask will fall. When people watch that, it does leave us with a feeling. I don't really know Tucker like some of these other people, and I've met him, but I don't really know him, that he's just a really good performer that he was able to deliver that, and he's able to deliver the takedown of the populist right affect with just as much a palm and passion as he's able to deliver the populist right lie.
- [41:03]
Jason Zengerly
But don't you think his Persona is different than O'Reilly's? I mean, I feel like O'Reilly definitely pretended to be the guy at the bar. Right. Whereas Tucker, I think, is more of, like, a class trader. Like, that's. That's the role that he's playing. You know, he still, like, has, you know, the Reptiles and the Rolex, and, you know, I mean, like, he drinks a bottle of Perrier. Literally, like, it's a branded bottle of Perrier. And I think it's. It's a lot like Trump being able to say, you know, I've been in the rooms with, you know, those people, and I know what they say about you, and I'm here to tell you, everything that you think about them is true, because I saw it with my own eyes, and I think that gives him, you know, some credibility. Like, he's not pretending to be an everyman. I mean, it's. It's still a popular shtick, but it's. In some ways, I think it's. It's more authentic to who he is, and I think that actually gives him some credibility with his audience. When the mask finally slipped on O'Reilly, people are just like, yeah, that guy's full of it. And with Tucker, I don't know if his audience necessarily feels that way.
- [41:59]
Tim Miller
I guess that's true. And it's different in some ways and others. I guess the point is that on policy matters, he was a very effective advocate against the Buchananite wing before he became a very effective advocate for it. And it's ways in which the other thing that you talked about that's very relevant right now, it's a way in which he's similar to J.D. vance. And I think at some level, there's this question of does it matter whether this has been an authentic switch or not? Maybe not, but I could. Some level, it matters a little bit, I guess, whether he and JD did this authentically or whether they were able to kind of ride a populist wave.
- [42:38]
Jason Zengerly
I think it's a mix. I mean, I think there are obviously cynical positioning decisions that both made when they sort of recognized that this was where things were headed and the way the wind was blowing. At the same time, I do think that. That their resentment towards, you know, certain parts of society, certain people, you know, David Fromm or whatever. Like, I think that's real. There's, like, a deep seated resentment they both have towards.
- [43:04]
Tim Miller
They're just looking out at the world, you know, just looking out at all of the people in there and all of the indignities that they've suffered and all of the people causing pain. And they're like, you know, it's that David Frum that really is the one.
- [43:18]
Jason Zengerly
Bill Crystal and David Frum, those are the two. Which is, yeah, maybe less Crystal for JD but certainly for Tucker. Someone once said to me that the two people who screwed up Tucker most are his mother and Bill Kristol.
- [43:32]
Tim Miller
So, I mean, far be it for me to come to Bill's defense. He's able to do it in his own. This wasn't a. I know it's not an attack.
- [43:39]
Jason Zengerly
This wasn't, like a criticism of that.
- [43:40]
Tim Miller
This question, though, goes to, I think, an important underlying kind of fact about Tucker and about Jade, which is about how authentic this is, which is. Okay. They've suffered a lot of indignities over the years. And you wrote very interestingly about how Tucker was jealous and hated Steve Bannon because of Breitbart's rise back when he was running the Daily Caller. And they were competitive and he was, I guess he had asked his staffers to try to prove that Steve Bannon was full of shit, going to do investigations into Steve Bannon. And these days, Tucker's, like, resentment towards Steve Bannon isn't driving him, you know, because that would be harmful to position himself that way. Right. Like, it's a little bit revealing that, you know, it's the mother that abandoned him. And, like, Bill Crystal's a much safer person to be resentful towards than the other people that he could be resentful towards. The Fox leadership. Bannon. Right. Like. And you know, who. For whom he still needs to appeal to those crowds.
- [44:42]
Jason Zengerly
Well, Bill kind of serves as, like, this. This, like, skeleton key that he's used to kind of retcon his entire, you know, career and trajectory and kind of change. Because, I mean, the story that he tells, you know, I think other people, but also himself, is that he was this talented, young, naive kid who the Bill Crystal and the neocons got their hooks into him when he was, you know, young and. And, you know, tricked him into supporting the war in Iraq and tricked him into support borders and tricked him into supporting free trade and all these other things that harmed white working class Americans. And, you know, eventually the scales fell from his eyes. And now what he's doing is penance to make up for, you know, being used by the neocons. And like, I think that, you know, that story is.
- [45:31]
Tim Miller
And so that also explains, you know, the apologia for Putin and the mullahs. Exactly.
- [45:36]
Jason Zengerly
No, you can just.
- [45:37]
Tim Miller
If the neocons are wrong, then Gamalas have to be. Be right. I think.
- [45:44]
Jason Zengerly
I mean, there is something to that, though. Just.
- [45:47]
Tim Miller
Is there.
- [45:47]
Jason Zengerly
I mean, one person close to him who, who is, I think troubled by the anti Semitism said. And he wasn't like, excusing it, but he was, I think he was trying to explain it. He said, you know, it really did start, he thought, because, like, basically all the people who were opposed to him were pro Israel and he decided to just kind of like, go after Israel because there's a way to stick it to them. And, you know, it's obviously turned into something else. And this person, I think, recognizes that, but that that's what this person thought the origins of it were. And, you know, I, I don't know, he has a desire to stick it to his enemies. Right. And find things that will, you know, piss them off. And oftentimes that's liberals. But I think there's something there, too, with, with some of these, you know, conservatives as well.
- [46:27]
Tim Miller
The Israel stuff has really become. It feels like he's not capable of getting to an episode without talking about the evil Jews.
- [46:38]
Jason Zengerly
I hate to talk about Israel.
- [46:39]
Tim Miller
Yeah, he does. Every time, you know, you look at the transcripts of the episodes and they're like, bring up Israel and, you know, the Mossad and like, all the time. Apropos of nothing. Yeah. There has to be more to it than that. He's mad at his former staff colleagues from 20 years ago.
- [46:57]
Jason Zengerly
Yeah, clearly it's bigger than that. And his own, I think, increase in kind of religiosity, I think has something to do with it as well. Well, and also, you know, I think he's made the calculus that that's where the energy is on the right these days and that's where things are headed. And, you know, he has like, a really, really, really finely tuned political and professional radar, and we've seen that, like, good examples of that in the past, you know, seven or eight years. And I don't know if his radar is wrong this time or not, but he certainly seems to think that that's where things are headed and, and in order to be successful in, in, you know, the, the spaces that he operates now both politically and in media, like, he can't. He can't afford to have those people you know not on his side.
- [47:42]
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- [48:42]
Jason Zengerly
I want.
- [48:42]
Tim Miller
To ask about two other potential Skeleton keys. Maybe it wasn't his mother and Bill. Maybe there are other people that have influenced him. His brother, Buckley Carlson. Do you follow Buckley on social media lately? Have you monitored his tweets?
- [48:55]
Jason Zengerly
Buckley's emergence as a social media star, that has been a surprise.
- [49:00]
Tim Miller
Put a pin in Buckley for a second. And then also what you wrote about in the book at length, was when he was trying to outflank Steve Bannon at Daily Caller and he hired a lot of young white nationalists. I don't say this in like the broad, like we're smearing people and calling everyone white supremacists. He hired literally a valid white nationalists who are on white nationalist listservs who now after they left working for Tucker, some of them I still follow on social media, see what they're up to. Like their bios still basically declare themselves as white nationalists. And what's their iq, Right? Yeah, one of them. But yeah, it does seem like he might have been influenced by them. He hires all these young white nationalists at the Daily Caller and that happens right around the same time he starts doing his populist nationalist, anti semitic stuff.
- [49:51]
Jason Zengerly
Yeah, some of the anti semitic stuff. I mean, I feel like that's really come into focus in the past, you know, two or three years before. I mean, before the Caller and you.
- [50:02]
Governor Tim Walz
Know, you don't he.
- [50:03]
Tim Miller
And he wasn't great replacement. Right? Like great Replacement stuff does feel like, kind of like it was a bottom up thing. Like I don't know if that came out of Tucker's head, it might came out of his flunkies heads and then.
- [50:11]
Jason Zengerly
He got definitely no. I mean, well, what Tucker did, especially at Fox was he would take these sort of, you know, stories in the news or theories or ideas that existed just on the far right fringe, usually somewhere on the Internet and he would smuggle it on to prime time on Fox. And you know, I think great replacement is probably the, the best example of that. I mean he, and he brought that to, you know, the attention of just like mainstream conservatives and he presented it in such a way that, you know, it might not have been palatable to you or me, but I think to a Fox viewer it was probably more palatable than they, if they had read it in its original form and you know, the Scott Greer forum or whatever you. Tucker was like this conveyor belt for this stuff and you know, he continues to do that to this day. And I think that, that he's successful at it because, you know, unlike Scott Greer or unlike, you know, Alex Jones is like a better example. Like Alex Jones says, loony.
- [51:04]
Governor Tim Walz
Right.
- [51:04]
Jason Zengerly
But like, you know, Alex Jones is a loon. So you're gonna kind of, you know, take what he says with a grain of salt. Like Tucker I think still presents like as a fairly credible figure. And so when he says it, it, it has a credibility maybe that it, you know, it wouldn't have with, with most of the people who traditionally deliver that message.
- [51:19]
Tim Miller
He's good at doing his shtick, which like is basically like, how could you disagree with this? Oh yeah, you know, like he takes radical things and then tries to reframe them to make them in a way that it feels like you'd have to be insane to disagree with them, you know, and a lot of crazy people, they like the crazy part and so they emphasize the more extreme elements of it. And I do think that's a pernicious part of Tucker's program definitely.
- [51:46]
Jason Zengerly
And you know, and like the January 6th documentary and all that, I mean it was just, you watch that, you know, compare it to the, some of the 911 conspiracy theory documentaries and like it's just, it's just night and day.
- [52:00]
Tim Miller
Yeah.
- [52:00]
Jason Zengerly
He's also now a 911 conspiracy theorist too.
- [52:02]
Tim Miller
So are there any that he doesn't have yet?
- [52:05]
Jason Zengerly
I don't know about Freemasons? I'm not sure where he is.
- [52:07]
Tim Miller
Flat earth.
- [52:09]
Jason Zengerly
That's a good question. Him and Kyrie are hella backcourt.
- [52:11]
Tim Miller
I want to go back to Buckley for a second because I don't know, maybe this is just me.
- [52:16]
Jason Zengerly
Yeah.
- [52:16]
Tim Miller
As you said, he's emerged. I don't know when it started or when he started. It's kind of one of these things where maybe he's been posting since 2011 and I just noticed it. It two months ago. Or maybe he just started posting two months ago. I'm not sure. This is kind of what happens in the social media age, but his brother starts coming into my field of vision and his posts are insane. And he sounds indistinguishable from Alex Jones, much more unapologetic about his extreme views, and Tucker calls him his best friend. That also feels like this happens to people. Tucker is. Where is he? You know, he's either in rural Maine or South Florida and he's a little bit isolated and that like his crazy conspiracy mongering brother is influencing that. Is that, is that a crazy thing? I don't know.
- [53:01]
Jason Zengerly
I mean, look, I mean, he is his best friend. Like, they are incredibly close. You know, they're, you know, before his father died last year, like just the three of them are pretty inseparable. I did a Don Jr profile back in the first Trump administration and, and you know, talking to sort of Don Junior's like, you know, brain trust. And I remember they were telling me that, you know, when he would send out tweets, like, they, they would workshop the tweets and go over them and, and if there was a tweet that they deemed it was like too hot, it was, it was too much, they didn't want to come from Don Junior's account. They would have someone else tweet. Arthur Schwartz would usually tweet it. Like, I have wondered, like, is Buckley kind of tweeting the stuff that, you know, Tucker himself can't say, or he feels like it's too hot for him to say? I have no idea if that's the case. You know, I did have that thought because, like, he's just sort of like, like a more amped up version of Tucker. I feel like he's just a less polite version of Tucker. Yeah, he's kind of like Tucker's id.
- [53:50]
Tim Miller
I guess this is my point to this fundamental question. It's like, okay, maybe it isn't fake, actually. Maybe he's like, his brother seems legitimately insane and they're their best friends. And so, you know, it's kind of like somebody whose wife is, you know, extreme or husband. Right. Whose spouse, like, Influences their politics. I don't know.
- [54:09]
Jason Zengerly
Know.
- [54:09]
Tim Miller
Yeah, I'm just working through ideas.
- [54:12]
Jason Zengerly
Look, I mean, the question of whether Tucker, like, believes what he says. I mean, I don't know. I feel like it. It's kind of irrelevant. Like, he's saying it, and people believe that he believes it, and that's what matters. I mean, I do think that if he did start off saying this stuff cynically, it's only human nature that having been rewarded for saying these things and sort of living in this bubble of affirmation, which I think is something that happens certainly in television and now I think has happened in his own life. Because, you know, you're right. He is. He's on an island.
- [54:41]
Governor Tim Walz
Maine.
- [54:41]
Jason Zengerly
And he's on an island in Florida. Is. His world is really constricted. You know, I think when he was still living in Washington and, you know, rubbing elbows with, like, Hunter Biden or whatever, maybe he had a broader. A broader social circle.
- [54:54]
Tim Miller
Well, I guess this is to the point, right? Like, look, I'm a social creature, and so I'm always looking for social. Social answers to all this stuff. And, like, I think that it's. It's actually good to. To see other humans. It's important to, like, be with them face to face. You know, it softens you in various ways. And he was that in D.C. he was a party goer. And now it's like, does he even have friends anymore? When you're writing, you're writing about that one time where he bought a. He bought a thing at an auction to have dinner with Bill Ayers or something. And he invited Andrew Breitbart. He's dead now. His brother Matt Lay Bash, who writes a substack that is great. People should read. It's very bulwarky. Unclear to me the extent of their friendship at this point, but certainly can't possibly be as close as it once was. And the staffer. And he's in rural Maine in this house. Does he talk to anybody besides his wife and brother?
- [55:48]
Jason Zengerly
I think he does, yeah. I think he. But I think it's a completely different set of people. I mean, I think he used to talk to Matt Labash. He used to talk to Bill Crystal. He's talked to those folks at Jake Tapper. I mean, now I think he talks to Don Jr. And, you know, the Ovon and, you know, the Nelk boys.
- [56:06]
Tim Miller
I mean, he can't possibly be friends with Don junior. Andrew Breitbart is smart. He was. He might have been a bad person, but he was Smart. Matt. Matt Leibish is smart.
- [56:17]
Jason Zengerly
He is. He is genuinely friends.
- [56:21]
Tim Miller
No, he's friends with John Jr. Come on.
- [56:23]
Jason Zengerly
He is.
- [56:23]
Tim Miller
What would they talk about? John Jr. Is a moron. What could they possibly talk about?
- [56:28]
Jason Zengerly
They talk about hunting and, you know, politics.
- [56:30]
Tim Miller
Hunting. Yeah.
- [56:31]
Governor Tim Walz
Yeah.
- [56:32]
Jason Zengerly
I mean, they're like legit friends, and, you know, and he's legit friends with J.D. vance. I mean, that, like, I think that's like a real relationship, like an. I mean, there obviously an incredibly close political relationship, but I think there's. There's a personal relationship there in a way that he doesn't have with Trump. I mean, I think he likes Trump a lot, and Trump likes him, and I think they sort of get along because, you know, they're. They're fun together. But. But I think Vance, like, that's a. That's a real friendship, at least at the moment.
- [56:57]
Governor Tim Walz
Woman.
- [57:00]
Jason Zengerly
You look concerned.
- [57:01]
Tim Miller
It's not concerned. There's just a. I think it's not unreasonable to think that Tucker is a sociopath and, like, you know, how else could you live through all this stuff and that these aren't possibly real friendships? And I just. I find it hard to believe that he has a real friendship with Don Jr. I mean, Don Jr. Has, like, Forrest Gump level IQ and Tucker is like a smart, learned person. And I guess maybe they could talk about hunting. But the JD Vance one is obviously more important. His son works for J.D. the story is not apocryphal that he convinced Trump that the deep state would kill him if Trump picked someone besides JD Is that a real story?
- [57:37]
Jason Zengerly
I don't know if he convinced Trump that the deep state would kill him, but that is. I've been told that's what he said, that that was one of the arguments he made to Trump. I have no idea if that was, if Trump believed it or not, but that was an argument that Tucker made. He made other arguments in paper fans, too, but that was one of them. That if you picked a neocon, they would bump you off.
- [57:56]
Tim Miller
And he is a pretty key player in getting J.D. vance picked. And J.D. obviously is the person that would move the party even more down a populist, nationalist direction and in some ways more ideologically rigid one than Trump is. More malleable, let's say.
- [58:14]
Jason Zengerly
Yeah. Or inconsistent, if nothing else.
- [58:17]
Tim Miller
Yeah, inconsistent. Tell us a little bit about what you think the nature of that relationship is and how much is it political? Like, how much are they plotting together?
- [58:26]
Jason Zengerly
As I understand, like, the origin story is, they were both at this, you know, Bankers conference and kind of bonded about how much they hated everybody there. You know, so it's like it's his mom, Bill Crystal and Jamie Dimon, I guess, would be the. And this was back in the sort of the immediate aftermath of Hillbilly Elegy, when, you know, when Vance was kind of the shiny new toy for these folks because he was the Trump whisperer and he could explain to them what had happened.
- [58:50]
Tim Miller
Yeah. J.D. vance really hates the bankers. Yeah. And, you know, he was just traveling around with Peter Thiel trying to raise money as a VC guy. He went to Yale. He was the tiger mom's mentee. He was at Netflix. He's hanging out with the Reiners. He's going to conferences around the world. He really hates the elites. JD it's very, it's a genuine hatred. It's not fake.
- [59:12]
Jason Zengerly
You know, look, he clearly turned against them. They share, they share that he turned.
- [59:18]
Tim Miller
Against them because they were mean to him. That's why.
- [59:21]
Jason Zengerly
Or. Well, I mean, I don't, you know, if they, if, if the Standard hadn't hired Tucker and if the Netflix movie had done better. Right, maybe, like, yeah, things would be different these days. I don't know. I mean, I think what's important is that Tucker, you know, they became friends, and Tucker became like a really important sounding board for Vance, an endorser. I mean, I don't think Vance would have won that Ohio Senate race without Tucker. I mean, Tucker had him on during that primary, I think, like, I think 16 times on his Fox show, which, you know, is a ton, and especially, you know, among Ohio Republican primary voters, like, I think Tucker Carlson Tonight was, you know, had to be the top rated show for them, more than local news. And then just as importantly, he and his good friend Don Jr. Were in Trump's ear about endorsing J.D. in the Ohio Senate primary. And I don't think J.D. vance wins that primary without Trump's endorsement at the last minute. And, and Tucker was a really important factor in that. So I think JD Vance owes his political career to, to Tucker as much as to, you know, Peter Thiel or anyone. And Vance really, like, he modele himself on Tucker both, both the issues that he, he highlighted and even just his rhetoric, like, remember that ad? You know, you're going to call me a racist for saying that. That was like, straight out of like a Tucker Carlson monologue. I mean, he wasn't quite as, like, bad as, as Blake Masters was and just, just like, totally, like, ripping, like, the Tucker script, but it, it was, I think a lot of his presentation owed to to the way Tucker kind of handled himself on that Fox show.
- [60:50]
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- [61:50]
Tim Miller
I mean, that is the posse then, right? JD and Tucker and Don Jr trying to figure out how to carry the torch for this. Assuming that Don Sr. Wants to leave. And like, what does that. What does that look like, do you think?
- [62:03]
Jason Zengerly
I mean, right now I feel like Tucker has a pretty nice situation in that the guy who's the heir apparent is in total lockstep with him in terms of what he believes. And I think Tucker, I don't think Tucker is like, content to just be a podcaster. I think he wants. I think he has a vision for what he wants the country to be. And he has an ideological project at this point that I think he wants to see realized. And I think, you know, J.D. vance would be the vehicle for that. I mean, I think. I mean, I think there could be two things that could happen. One, Vance could, you know, start to chart a different path, and that would, you know, cause Tucker to be against him. I think the second thing that could happen is Tucker could conclude that advance just doesn't have. It doesn't have what it takes to actually get elected president, and that then, you know, Tucker would need to find another vehicle for. For his. His project. And, you know, I mean, people, or a lot of people ask me, do you think you'd ever run for president? And I don't think like him running. I. I don't think he's like Bill Clinton. I don't think he has like any sort of. He's had a desire his whole life to be president. I don't even know if he wants to be president, but I do think he wants, wants to do something and if he had his druthers, he could sort of do it through someone. But if he ultimately concludes that there's no one else who can do it but him, I don't think it's all that far fetched that he would eventually run for something.
- [63:21]
Tim Miller
What degree is that ideological project in alignment with. Going back to these questions about the great Replacement Theory, what degree do you think Tucker's ideological project is in alignment with what Nick Fuentes wants and what, what a lot of these other young groiper white identitarians want?
- [63:43]
Jason Zengerly
I think it's a form of it. I think Tucker wants to go back to the 1950s, you know, which is before he was born. But if, you know, as he tells it, that's when everything was great. I think, you know, go back to that in terms of the, the racial makeup of the country. Go back to that in terms of gender roles. Go back to that in terms of like sexual politics. Go back to that in terms of economic policy. I mean, I think he wants to wind things back and some of that stuff is, I mean, I don't know, like, I mean his, I, I think his critique of like consumer capitalism is like, it's compelling. I mean he has, he has smart things to say that are not, you know, if you, if you can cleave them off from all this other stuff are not, you know, necessarily racist or horrible. But wrap them all together in a bundle and I think that's what you get.
- [64:24]
Tim Miller
Well, it's hard to cleave it off. This is sort of like how the communism, real communism has never been tried. It's like boring right wing populism, you know, where we're just gonna, you know, we're gonna give the poor working class folks a little bit more health care and we' gonna, you know, have more thoughtful trade policies. Like it's not a popular program. You know, like the racist stuff is an essential ingredient to the program, I would think in the conspiracy model.
- [64:52]
Jason Zengerly
I agree with you. Yeah. Sort of national conservatism without the.
- [64:55]
Tim Miller
And Oren Cass also has a podcast, for example. It's not, I don't know if you looked at the rankings lately.
- [65:00]
Jason Zengerly
It's my next book.
- [65:01]
Tim Miller
But like Tucker's is. Yeah, yeah, Tucker's is significantly higher in the rank.
- [65:07]
Jason Zengerly
Yes.
- [65:07]
Tim Miller
Because he doesn't do white paper stuff. He does conspiracy.
- [65:12]
Jason Zengerly
Yeah, I think that's right. Yeah. I mean, I think the thing that makes him like an interesting figure and kind of compelling figure is he does merge it. It's. He's like. He was like the only Fox host that, like Ross Douth that could write a column about. Right. Multiple times. Like, he said, interesting enough stuff, you know, independent of the. The racist stuff and the sexist stuff and the anti Semitic stuff that you could actually, you know, he does engage in ideas.
- [65:36]
Tim Miller
He's interesting. And this is the thing to say about T. I obviously find him just unbelievably repulsive in every way. But the one thing that I will say about him that is, I think, the key to his potential success and influence. And so that's why it's kind of dangerous from my vantage point is I would go to those TPOSA conferences and have to sit there and listen to speech after speech with everybody doing MAGA slop and just kind of saying the same version of the same thing. Whatever the talking point of the moment was, whatever the hot grievance of the moment, it was, everybody did it. And then Tucker would go up there and kind of weave a yarn where it would be like, sometimes it'd be slop. And then he'd talk about the way that our modern architecture depresses the soul. And then you do funny jokes about. And I found myself sitting there, not compelled by his arguments in any way, but interested, engaged. My brain started to turn on a little bit. And there's something to that, that.
- [66:36]
Jason Zengerly
Yeah, no, I mean, well, the genesis of this book was, you know, I was talking to my agent. This was like, after January 6th, and we were talking about a completely different book about, you know, the civil War that was coming within the Republican Party because Donald Trump was going to be gone and who was going to inherit his supporters. And I was sort of arguing that, you know, and arguing that I would. Didn't want to do this book, like, you know, that Josh Hawley and Ted Cruz and Tom Cotton, all these guys are going to stake out these positions to try to, you know, get Trump supporters. And, like, none of them, like, have the charisma or the entertainment chops to ever appeal to those people. And just as, like, an offhanded comment, I was like, you know, the only person you like really could do that is, like, Tucker Carlson. And that was. That was how the book came to be, basically. But, yeah, Tupper, you can't underestimate his, his just showmanship. You do find yourself watching him and listening to him in a way that you don't with so many of these other people. And then it's similar to Trump. I mean, you know, he. He holds your attention. It's hard to imagine anyone on the stage these days keeping people, you know, in a. A, A hockey arena for two hours for some meandering speech, you know, the way Trump does. Other than Tucker. Tucker seems the only person who could actually do that.
- [67:42]
Tim Miller
All right, so you've had to consume a lot of Tucker. Assume. So. Do you have any. Are there any, like, random little bugaboos, people who don't. Who only see him through clips? Any random little things that we should keep our eyes on?
- [67:53]
Jason Zengerly
Tucker Outtakes? No, I. I like. I like sort of figuring out, like, how many. I guess he doesn't use Zins anymore. He has his own, you know, product now. I like figuring out how many he's packing during certain shows. That's always entertaining.
- [68:06]
Tim Miller
Yeah. Did you see the bit he did about how Zins. He stopped doing Zins because gays were doing Zins. They're putting it up their butt.
- [68:14]
Jason Zengerly
Zins are gay, which I did not know. I read that article in Men's Health. I had no idea.
- [68:18]
Tim Miller
Zins are gay. People are putting them up their butt, and he wants something stronger.
- [68:22]
Jason Zengerly
Did you know about that?
- [68:23]
Tim Miller
Not a lot of Zinning at Oz in New Orleans, but, you know, Tucker is obviously the arbiter of masculinity.
- [68:31]
Jason Zengerly
That was a new theory for me. The gay Zinn stuff. I knew Philip Morris was.
- [68:36]
Tim Miller
That's Jason Zangerly. Sorry he had to suffer through a lot of hours of Tucker in order to get this book hated by all the right people. Tucker Carlson, the Unraveling of the Conservative Mind. So go check it out. He did the work, so you don't have to. I appreciate it, brother, and hope to talk to you again soon. All right, thanks.
- [68:53]
Jason Zengerly
Thanks, dude. See you.
- [68:54]
Tim Miller
All right. Thanks to Governor Tim Walls and to Jason Zengerly. We have some great guests coming this week, and we're going to be with you minute to minute as new information comes out about the fallout in Minnesota. So look forward to seeing you back here tomorrow. Have a good one. Peace. Sometimes it snow. Sometimes I feel so bad so bad. The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper, with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.