The Bulwark Podcast – January 27, 2026

Episode: Gov. Tim Walz and Jason Zengerle: The Assault on Minnesota

Host: Tim Miller
Guests: Gov. Tim Walz and Jason Zengerle

Episode Overview

This episode is split into two timely conversations. In the first segment, Tim Miller speaks with Minnesota Governor Tim Walz about the ongoing federal law enforcement intervention in Minnesota, the community's response, and the demand for accountability following the violent deaths of Renee Good and Alex Preddy. In the second segment, author and New Yorker staff writer Jason Zengerle discusses his new Tucker Carlson biography, the ideological evolution of the conservative media, and the future of the MAGA movement. The episode delivers candid analysis, on-the-ground reporting, and unfiltered insights into today's political crisis.

Segment 1: Gov. Tim Walz on the Assault on Minnesota

[01:29] Tim Miller welcomes Gov. Tim Walz, noting the urgency after recent events in Minnesota, including federal raids and street violence.

Key Topics and Insights

1. The Situation on the Ground

• Gov. Walz characterizes the federal intervention as an unprecedented "assault":
  • "Look, I don't know how to describe it other than an assault. I've never witnessed anything like this." (02:30)
  • Widespread trauma: "Everyone here has a trauma response. And then, of course, with Renee and Alex's murder, pretty overwhelming."
  • Despite some progress after the departure of federal official Greg Bobino, the threat remains: "It's a unorganized, untrained, dangerous force on the streets that has nothing do with either immigration or law enforcement." (02:30)
  • Mood: Slight optimism, but persistent skepticism and resolve among Minnesotans.

2. Accountability, Policing, and Change in Federal Leadership

• Incoming ICE leader Tom Homan may be an improvement, but skepticism remains:
  • "My hope is with Tom Holman is different from Greg Bevino ... He's a true, you know, law enforcement professional ... But I think what he understands is this thing turned into a disaster for them." (04:22)
  • Concern: "Do they just shift this nightmare somewhere else? ... The end of this is a sane policy on how you do immigration reform and stop an attack by the federal government on a state." (02:30)
• Local, nonviolent mass resistance credited with shaping outcomes:
  • "What you witnessed was, is what massive, organized nonviolent resistance did." (02:30)
• Federal response still harsh and overreaching:
  • "The harassment, the racial profiling, going after people based on how they look, ... The insult just to the soul of this. I mean, this is moral injury that we're living through." (06:42)

3. Demand for Transparency and Justice

• Calls for investigation into officer-involved deaths:
  • "We need a full independent investigation of these murders and accountability." (06:42)
  • On the killing of Alex Preddy: "The first step in an independent investigation is knowing who actually shot Alex Preddy. We still don't know. Do you know?" (07:39)
  • Gov. Walz: "No, I do not know. I don't know their names. I don't have anything. ... This is the world we're living in. ... The worst part of it was basically sweeping this crime scene, keeping us out of there." (07:50)
• Federal obstruction:
  • "We were ready for this after Renee ... My professionals at the Bureau of Criminal Apprehension showed up with a court order that said we would be allowed on there ... we were still kept out." (08:17)
  • Lack of FBI involvement noted as evidence of severity: "The FBI is not involved in this because they wouldn't even touch it. They knew this was such a horrible thing." (08:17)
• On the importance of accountability: "You cannot have public servants anonymous and masked and murdering our fellow Americans like it's unacceptable. ... The fact that they haven't even told the governor of Minnesota who did this is insane." (09:11)

4. The Minnesota Spirit and Community Response

• The "Minnesota attitude" of vigilance and peaceful defiance highlighted:
  • "A lot of folks think winter's over in March. Minnesotans don't let their guard down till May." (02:30)
  • "If anybody deserves a Nobel Peace Prize, it's the people of Minnesota." (13:35)
• Contrast between federal agents and state authorities:
  • "When the National Guard came in ... what you saw yesterday was unmasked professionals from our state handing out hot chocolate, coffee and donuts. ... That change is just so dramatic." (10:00)

5. Interactions with Federal Leaders

• On conversation with President Trump:
  • "He said, 'we're on a similar wavelength,' ... Now, I don't actually know what his end state looks like compared to my end state, but we both agree that this needs to end." (13:54)
  • Gov. Walz refutes federal talking points, criticizes misinformation:
    • "They're putting up pictures of some of the worst of the worst, the one that they're bragging about. We arrested him and he was in a Minnesota prison for years, and we handed him over to them. So this is not like they were out ... Oh, we raided a house and found this deep criminal." (13:54)
• On call with Trump: "He calls me the R word. He makes up things that I'm corrupt, like there's something seriously wrong with this guy. And then you get a call that, you know, we got to work together." (16:59)

6. Police and Community Relations

• Walz condemns federal agents' tactics:
  • "DHS is their own little internal HSI that's doing this stuff." (09:11)
  • "Good policing is building trust." (10:00)
  • On Republican accusations: "They are running this stuff up in their reality, but they came up against what democracy looks like. ... I think they thought they would try and provoke violence. Neither of those things happen." (12:26)

7. Personal Accountability and Minnesota's Trauma

• "My best friend and speaker of the House was murdered over political issues here earlier in the summer ... The trauma in Minnesota, I can't even explain it to you." (12:26)
• On his own political choices, including debate with J.D. Vance:
  • "I'll own it ... when you're on a ticket, you take your orders ... I own this. I started talking about it in January ... Well, we would have won and we didn't. Which means you do own some of that." (18:41)

8. Remembering Victims and Next Steps

• On the families of Alex Preddy and Renee Good:
  • "They're absolutely shattered, but they were absolutely adamant ... the world knows how he died. You need to tell him how he lived ... his sense of moral clarity was so big..." (21:54)
  • "I spent an hour with all of his coworkers ... they're traumatized." (21:54)
• On the importance of independent investigation and public help:
  • "We're gathering evidence ... and we will do this, and we do it well." (11:34)

Notable Quotes

• Gov. Walz: "If anybody deserves a Nobel Peace Prize, it's the people of Minnesota." (13:35)
• Tim Miller: "You cannot have public servants anonymous and masked and murdering our fellow Americans like it's unacceptable." (09:11)
• Gov. Walz: "We lose it all if we don't do this." (11:34)
• Gov. Walz: "You started this fire. You don't get credit for putting it out after you started it." (16:59)

Segment 2: Jason Zengerle and the Unraveling of Conservative Media

[26:26] Jason Zengerle joins to discuss his new book "Hated by All the Right People: Tucker Carlson and the Unraveling of the Conservative Mind."

Key Topics and Insights

1. Power Players in Right-Wing Politics

• Stephen Miller's outsized influence on immigration:
  • "He runs DHS, not Noem. So this, this is his baby. ... He's the one who’s really the committed ideologue on immigration..." (26:59)
  • Possibility Trump is rethinking Miller's influence due to political blowback.

2. The Tucker Carlson Origin Story

• Tucker’s early career: rejected then hired at the Weekly Standard:
  • "He would have gone back to Arkansas ... had to do corporate comms for Walmart ..." (34:58)
• Mismatches and resentment in mainstream media—early hints of his later contrarianism.

3. Transformation and Media Persona

• Crossfire and the Iraq war as ideological turning points:
  • "At Crossfire, ... he kind of had to tow a partisan line. ... With the war in Iraq, he had some private doubts ... just constrained about saying them publicly." (36:44)
  • On being “good TV”: "It's hard to imagine anyone on the stage these days keeping people ... for two hours ... the way Trump does. Other than Tucker." (66:36)
• His evolution mirrors a broader right-wing shift from neoconservatism to populist nationalism.
• Early critique of “populists” like Bill O’Reilly, before adopting the same style:
  • "Basically his agent, CNN and like, the powers that be, like, that was his issue ... the concern about him as a news performer was that he wouldn't tow the party line and that's what they wanted for that show." (38:23)

4. The Tucker-JD Vance Dynamic and the Future of MAGA

• The deep influence Carlson has had on J.D. Vance’s rise:
  • "I don't think Vance would have won that Ohio Senate race without Tucker. ... [He] had him on during that primary ... I think Tucker Carlson Tonight was ... the top rated show for them ..." (59:18)
  • "JD Vance owes his political career to Tucker as much as to Peter Thiel or anyone." (59:21)
  • Their shared performative populism, despite elite backgrounds.
• Assessment of future right-wing leadership:
  • "The guy who's the heir apparent is in total lockstep with him ... J.D. vance would be the vehicle for that. ... if ultimately ... there's no one else... but him, I don't think it's all that far-fetched that he would eventually run [for president]." (62:02–63:21)

5. Carlson’s Ideological Project

• On Carlson’s true beliefs:
  • "The question of whether Tucker, like, believes what he says ... I feel like it's kind of irrelevant. Like, he's saying it, and people believe that he believes it, and that's what matters." (54:11)
  • His project: a backward-looking, “1950s” vision of white, patriarchal, hierarchical America, wrapped in anti-elite and anti-immigrant rhetoric.
• The seductive combination of conspiracy, grievance, and genuine critique of capitalism:
  • "I think his critique of consumer capitalism is ... compelling ... But wrap them all together in a bundle and I think that's what you get." (63:42–64:24)

6. The Conspiratorial and White Nationalist Turn

• Carlson as a “conveyor belt” for radical far-right ideas:
  • "He would take ... stories in the news or theories ... on the far right fringe ... and he would smuggle it on to prime time on Fox ... Great Replacement is probably the best example of that." (50:11)
• Distinction between Tucker’s rhetorical skill and Alex Jones-style crankery; effectiveness at normalizing extremism.

7. Personal and Social Networks

• Carlson’s isolation in rural Maine/Florida, narrowing his personal world and feeding his conspiratorial mindset.
• Discusses influence of brother Buckley Carlson, who is now more extreme and visible on social media.
• Relationship with J.D. Vance, Don Jr., and the populist wing of MAGA.

Notable Quotes

• Jason Zengerle: "Tucker was like this conveyor belt for this stuff and he continues to do that to this day..." (50:11)
• Jason Zengerle: "He wants to go back to the 1950s, ... that's when everything was great. ... Go back to that in terms of the, the racial makeup of the country. ... gender roles... economic policy." (63:42)
• Tim Miller: "Boring right-wing populism, you know ... is not a popular program. You know, like the racist stuff is an essential ingredient to the program." (64:24)
• Jason Zengerle: "You do find yourself watching him and listening to him in a way that you don't with so many of these other people. ... He holds your attention." (66:36)

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:29] Gov. Tim Walz on the immediate and ongoing crisis in Minnesota
• [06:42] Demand for accountability and an independent investigation
• [10:00] Minnesota’s model of peaceful, community-based protest
• [13:54] Conversations with President Trump—division between rhetoric and reality
• [18:41] On Walz’s debate with J.D. Vance and political accountability
• [21:54] Eulogy for Alex Preddy, honoring Minnesota’s dead
• [26:26] Jason Zengerle on the power struggle for the soul of the right
• [34:58] Tucker Carlson’s early career and media resentment
• [38:23] His evolution from contrarian to populist performer
• [59:21] The J.D. Vance–Tucker alliance and future of MAGA populism
• [63:42] Carlson’s vision of America and the structural role of racism/conspiracy in his program

Memorable Moments

• Gov. Walz bluntly: "This is moral injury that we're living through." (06:42)
• Tim Miller’s exasperation: "You cannot have public servants anonymous and masked and murdering our fellow Americans..." (09:11)
• Jason Zengerle’s summation of Tucker’s ambition: "He has an ideological project at this point that I think he wants to see realized." (62:02)
• On the unique populist charisma of Carlson: "He holds your attention. It's hard to imagine anyone on the stage these days ... other than Tucker." (66:36)

Summary

This episode of The Bulwark Podcast offers raw, unvarnished insight into two critical frontlines: Minnesota’s resistance to federal overreach and abuse, and the transformation of the conservative movement through the rise of media figures like Tucker Carlson. Governor Walz, still in the midst of crisis, lays out the stakes for liberal democracy—emphasizing transparency, nonviolence, and community fortitude. In the second half, Jason Zengerle charts the ideological and psychological evolution that has brought figures like Carlson and Vance to the center of American politics. Both conversations provide sharp, reality-based analysis with empathy for those on the frontlines—and an unflinching examination of the forces reshaping the country.