The Bulwark Podcast
Episode: Jake Tapper: Trump Is Making the Country Less Safe
Date: October 7, 2025
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Jake Tapper
Overview
In this episode, Tim Miller hosts CNN anchor and chief Washington correspondent Jake Tapper for an in-depth conversation on Tapper's new book Race Against Terror, recent political developments, the state of U.S. national security under Trump, and the seismic fallout from both Democratic and Republican leadership. The episode dives into the Trump administration’s impact on national security, the prosecution purge at the DOJ and FBI, growing polarization, and shifting media landscapes.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Tribalism, Social Media, and Polarization
- Tim and Jake open with humor about mistaken identities and online insults, before quickly moving to how increased tribalism and the "us vs. them" mentality are affecting the national discourse.
- Jake Tapper (02:17): “I really hate this us versus them thing that I see on social media more and more and more ... I believe in what I believe in and I’m not, like no one else is involved in what I believe in.”
- Both agree that ascribing group guilt or responsibility is damaging and feels increasingly prevalent.
2. Jake Tapper’s Recent Interaction with President Trump
- Tapper recounts a recent text exchange with Trump on the anniversary of October 7th, focusing on the Israel-Hamas ceasefire negotiation and broader Middle East policy.
- (03:05) Tapper explains, "I have the president’s number and I text him on occasion ... this is my nerd life that I sit around and think: What happens if Hamas doesn’t agree to give up power?"
- Trump’s Response: When Tapper asked what happens if Hamas doesn’t cede power per the proposed deal, Trump replied, “total obliteration” (04:34).
- Notable: Tapper relays both Trump’s conspicuous silence on thornier questions (e.g., Arab League commitment, Obamacare subsidies) and his sense of the president’s unpredictability.
3. ACA Subsidies, Internal GOP Tensions, and Shutdown Fallout
- The conversation turns to health insurance subsidies (ACA), surprisingly public Republican dissent (Marjorie Taylor Greene’s critique), and strategic divides within the GOP.
- (08:28) Tim Miller reads Greene's tweet opposing premium hikes, noting, "That's a pretty strong break from MTG."
- Jake highlights that the majority of those benefiting from ACA subsidies live in Trump-won states, foreshadowing policy complications.
- Tapper (10:56): "That's a lot of people ... most of these subsidies are going to people in states that Trump won right now."
- Shutdown Impact: Tapper foresees growing public unrest when military families and civil servants miss paychecks, noting the hypocrisy of Congress still receiving pay during shutdowns (12:12).
4. Tapper’s Book: Race Against Terror and the DOJ/FBI Prosecutor Purge
- Tapper outlines Race Against Terror: a true-crime/justice procedural recounting the pursuit and prosecution of an Al Qaeda operative, its implications for U.S. national security, and the U.S. government's functioning institutions.
- (15:46) "The book is... about how the Americans prove the case ... and I wrote it like a thriller ... Except this is nonfiction on a different level."
- Tapper details the Trump administration’s sidelining of top prosecutors like George Toscas and Michael Ben Ari due to perceived political baggage, triggered in some cases by right-wing activists on social media (18:00).
- "Justice Department leadership is more focused on going after Trump’s perceived enemies than they are on the national security of this country."
Notable Quote
"There are decisions being made that are making this country less safe by getting rid of these seasoned prosecutors who know how to lock these people up."
— Tapper (17:50)
- Staff inside DOJ and FBI are described as frightened, often communicating with Tapper only on encrypted apps, fearing both job loss and active surveillance (23:17). Tapper likens the atmosphere to a new era of “McCarthyism.”
5. January 6th, the Whitewashing of History, and Deploying the Military Domestically
- Both criticize the Republican Party's efforts to "whitewash" the events of January 6th, with Tapper highlighting the disturbing embrace of violence and calls for deploying military in U.S. cities.
- (25:09) Tapper: "They have so whitewashed that from their brains that they don’t even understand how they sound."
- On the idea of using U.S. troops for domestic law enforcement, both express deep concern.
- Tapper (29:01): “I don’t know any people who join the military so they can use lethal force against their fellow Americans ... I just don’t think that that is a healthy attitude towards what the military is for.”
6. Drone Strikes, Venezuela Policy, and the Slippery Slope of Presidential Power
- Tapper and Miller analyze the administration’s legal justifications for drone strikes on suspected Venezuelan narco-trafficking boats, the Pentagon’s internal friction, and the riskiness of presidentially-declared “narco-terror” wars.
- (33:03) Jake cautions: "Any time a president creates a shiny new toy for himself, how is the next president going to use it?... There was the extrajudicial killing of an American, Anwar al-Awlaki ... the idea that we can just kill people is one that doesn’t have limits."
7. The Biden Book, Media Critiques, and Tough Questions on Leadership
- Tapper clarifies the scope and substance of his and Alex Thompson’s book Original Sin on Biden’s reelection run, the cognitive and organizational dysfunctions they uncovered, and candidly describes Democrats' avoidance and rationalization of Biden’s decline.
Notable Moments
- “If you don’t recognize George Clooney as he is throwing you the most lucrative Democratic fundraiser ... that is disturbing.” (46:13)
- Tapper draws distinction between Biden’s cognitive issues and Trump’s, calling them “different wings of the hospital” (46:32).
- On the Biden circle, Tapper says (47:23): “Joe Biden had removed from his inner circle anybody who would stand up and say, you can’t do this ... And there was not even a conversation about whether or not he should run for reelection.”
- Both agree the Democratic Party owes voters honesty about what happened in 2024:
- Miller (51:59): “I agree. I just wish they would just say, look ... We fucked up, and a lot of people saw it more clearly than I did inside the bubble. Just be honest about it. That’s the truth, right?”
- Tapper: “I would love some honesty.”
- Tapper is frank about the anger directed at him for the book—he asserts that the real anger should be at the Democrats “who lied to them” (54:26).
8. Media Criticism, Bari Weiss/CBS News, and the State of Journalism
- Tapper, asked about Bari Weiss’s new rumored role at CBS, reserves judgment, noting his respect for her but acknowledging the risks of ideological tilt in news organizations (58:48).
- Tapper: "We need as many thriving, successful fact-based news organizations as there are out there ... less ideological media, less in terms of broadcast media" (63:24).
- Tapper also criticizes peers for lacking the courage to speak out during controversial moments in media, such as FCC/Colbert incidents (64:25).
Notable Quotes & Moments
-
On DOJ Purges:
“There are decisions being made that are making this country less safe … They are purging people in the FBI who carried out orders… Anything having to do with January 6th.”
— Jake Tapper (19:09, 24:37) -
On Prosecutorial Independence:
“Justice Department leadership is more focused on going after Trump’s perceived enemies than they are in the national security of this country.”
— Jake Tapper (17:50) -
On Domestic Military Deployment:
“I don’t know anybody who thinks it’s appropriate for US Military to be deployed the way that they’re being deployed ... what police are trained at and what the military is trained at are … a completely different set of skills.”
— Jake Tapper (27:45, 29:01) -
On Biden & Trump’s Cognitive States:
“Donald Trump’s ... personality issues ... that’s a different wing of the hospital than Joe Biden ... what Joe Biden was going through, which was like a diminishment of his acuity ...”
— Jake Tapper (46:32) -
On Voters' Anger:
“They really should be mad at the Democrats who lied to them. That’s what I think.”
— Jake Tapper (54:26)
Timestamps for Key Segments
- Personal anecdotes, group identity & tribalism: 00:59–02:44
- Trump texting story, Hamas, and US strategy: 03:05–08:06
- ACA subsidies, government shutdown, and GOP discord: 08:18–13:02
- Book overview, DOJ purge, and prosecutorial independence: 15:33–22:53
- Fears inside DOJ/FBI, McCarthyism analogy: 23:17–24:37
- January 6th and GOP whitewashing: 25:09–26:43
- Military use domestically and ethical concerns: 27:45–30:03
- Drone warfare & Venezuela policy: 31:54–36:44
- Writing about the Biden campaign and fallout: 39:31–54:26
- Media criticism, Bari Weiss at CBS, journalism’s challenges: 58:48–64:43
Final Thoughts
This wide-ranging episode is a must-listen for anyone tracking U.S. political institutions, the rule of law, and the volatile landscape of both parties post-2024. Tapper’s candor on the dangers of politicizing the DOJ, the seriousness of national security purges, and the moral peril in both Democratic and Republican leadership underscores the stakes for liberal democracy. Both Miller and Tapper balance critique with humor and humility, aiming for nuance and honesty in an era of spin.