Jane Coaston: The Epstein Revelations Keep Getting Worse

Summary

The Bulwark Podcast

Episode: Jane Coaston: The Epstein Revelations Keep Getting Worse
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Jane Coaston (Crooked Media's What a Day)
Date: February 10, 2026

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Main Theme

This episode delves into the most recent revelations from the Jeffrey Epstein files, the fallout for elites entangled in the scandal, accountability for co-conspirators, and the broader implications for American politics, populism, and perceptions of anti-elite sentiment. Tim Miller and Jane Coaston explore why the Epstein story strikes a nerve in the political and cultural landscape, the uncomfortable overlaps of wealth, power, and corruption, and shifting attitudes in American society—touching on everything from cryptocurrency scams to pro-wrestling as a populist barometer.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Howard Lutnick and the Epstein Files

[01:56 - 08:24]

• Setting the Scene: Lutnick, a prominent financial figure, testified before the Senate about his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein after being named several times in the released files.
• Discrepancy Highlighted: Lutnick previously claimed revulsion after visiting Epstein—"I decided that I will never be in the room with that disgusting person ever again"—but continued to meet, email, and conduct business with Epstein for years after.
  • Quote [02:50]: Tim Miller reads Lutnick's own emphatic pronouncement about cutting off contact, even as he later joined Epstein on his private island with his family.
• Email Patterns: Jane notes how weird, rambling, and incoherent Epstein's emails often were, yet important and powerful people continued to interact with him regardless.
• Motivations: Jane asks rhetorically, "At a baseline level, there's like, one reason you spend this much time with Jeffrey Epstein. And if it wasn't for that reason, what were you doing?"
• Examples of 'Normal' Dealings: The pair detail episodes of seemingly mundane neighborhood squabbles and business partnerships involving Epstein post-2005, undermining denials of continued association.

2. Why Do Elites Still Show Up to Hearings?

[08:41 - 12:54]

• Paradox of Participation: Tim and Jane puzzle over why figures like Lutnick subject themselves to public Congressional grillings, even as norms collapse elsewhere.
• Perception Management: Jane suggests, "They care a lot about perception management, a lot about it," arguing that despite the cynical breaking of norms, the need to appear legitimate or likable persists in this administration.
  • Quote [10:28] Jane Coaston: "They want so badly to not just be feared, but also liked, which are not the same thing."
• Right-wing Media Ignoring the Story: Fox News and right-leaning outlets largely avoid coverage, while some outlets try to change the topic or shift blame overseas.

3. Ghislaine Maxwell, Clemency, and Congressional Response

[13:32 - 16:41]

• Maxwell Takes the Fifth: Ghislaine Maxwell refuses to answer the House Oversight Committee, but says she'll testify if Trump grants her clemency, promising to exonerate both Trump and Clinton.
• Political Danger: Both agree even Trump likely recognizes pardoning Maxwell is radioactive, with Jane mocking the absurdity of Maxwell's supposed "honest" testimony.
  • Quote [14:53] Jane Coaston: "Child sex trafficker who will go to hell..."
• Unusual Bipartisan Response: Even Rep. Lauren Boebert opposes clemency for Maxwell:
  • Quote [16:33]: "I do not. I think, I think Ghislaine Maxwell should get more time and she should definitely be in a harsher prison than what she's in."
• Victim Accountability: Tim stresses, "there needs to be more information provided... and hopefully indictments and accountability for the other people that were involved."

4. Emerging Names and Ongoing Cover-up

[17:00 - 22:13]

• New Names Surface: Reps. Ro Khanna and Thomas Massie mention seeing photos and names of six more implicated men; at least two are named: Les Wexner (Victoria's Secret) and Sultan Ahmed Bin Sulayem (UAE).
• International Angle: The Sultan is linked to torture videos and possible victim testimonies, illustrating the vast international web of the case.
• Les Wexner's Ties: Jane and Tim remark on the oddity of Wexner assigning his fortune's management to Epstein ("Who could say why?").

5. Crypto, Corruption, and Regulatory Failure

[22:13 - 28:19]

• Epstein, Trump, and Crypto: Tim draws lines between Epstein co-conspirators and major Trump business deals in the UAE, especially the $500 million crypto arrangement.
• Regulatory Breakdown: Only one serious enforcement attorney remains at CFTC-Chicago, leading one ex-attorney to say, "If I were a different person, I would launch a crypto scam right now because there's no cops on the beat." [23:55]
• Political Challenge: Both hosts argue that crypto has become a vehicle for scams, with Jane observing, "cryptocurrency keeps just being predominantly used for scams."
• Democratic Response: Tim worries Democrats are too uninformed on crypto, conceding the narrative to right-wingers and unregulated actors.

6. Populism, Fitness Culture, and Obsequiousness in Elite Circles

[28:19 - 33:44]

• Crypto Bros & Political Appeal: The rise of crypto culture as a political lever is unpacked; Jane suggests Dems should pursue a "scammers are ripping you off" populist message rather than embracing crypto.
• The 'Epstein Class': Jane explains it's now shorthand for a corrupt, self-interested oligarchical elite, with both crypto billionaires and political fixers fitting the type.
• Peter Attia's Groveling Emails: Jane and Tim roast the now-notorious longevity doc for fawning, obsequious exchanges with Epstein ("I go into Jeffrey Epstein withdrawal when I don't hear from him."). [30:21 - 32:12]
  • Coaston points to the almost cult-like selfishness in Epstein's orbit: "No one did that more than Jeffrey Epstein. Jeffrey Epstein believed firmly that what he wanted and his desires were the most important thing in the entire world." [32:17]
• Doug Band & Maxwell's 'Boo Booitis': Tim reads an excruciating email from a top Clinton aide to Maxwell, revealing the childish and deranged communication style within Epstein's elite circle. [33:44]

7. Small Bean Fascism, Perception of Protest, and State Power

[35:09 - 38:57]

• Shift in Authoritarianism: Invoking Adam Serwer’s phrase, they discuss "small bean fascism"—the paradox of being both all-powerful and ever-victimized, a mindset prevalent in Trumpist leadership and MAGA grievance culture.
  • Coaston: "You want to be able to kill people, but you don’t want people to be mad at you for killing people." [38:21]
• Democratic ‘Adultification’: Jane highlights the burden on liberals/progressives to always be the adults, letting the right "be a wheedling child" while avoiding accountability.

8. Wrestling, Anti-ICE Populism, and Political Identity

[39:58 - 44:49]

• AEW & Populist Chants: An audience at a wrestling event chanting “F--- ICE” is dissected as evidence that anti-elite and anti-authority sentiment cross traditional party lines and can even arise in unlikely venues.
• 'Rich Asshole Test': Both explain the symbolic importance of wrestling’s “heel” and the opportunity Democrats have to shed the image of "rich asshole" technocrats and reclaim anti-elitism for themselves.

9. Doomerism, the Left, and the Need for a Positive Program

[47:23 - 52:23]

• Why BlueSky?: Jane prefers it as a social network for community, sports, and authentic engagement over anger-driven echo chambers.
  • She critiques the "relentless expressions of despair" as performative intellectualism and urges a move from anti-everything to pro-something politics for the American left.
  • "If we are going to do this thing, we can't just have a politics of anti-Trump. We are going to need to have a pro-something else politics for 2028." [51:38]

10. Washington Post Sports Section—Loss of Local Institutions

[52:23 - 55:33]

• Jane mourns the closure/downsizing of the Washington Post sports section, highlighting its importance in covering high school athletics, community victories, and accountability reporting (e.g., Commanders/Redskins ownership scandals).
  • "D.C. is a beautiful, rich community full of so much stuff, including so many people who care so deeply about sports..." [54:10]
• The loss is emblematic of wider declines in local journalism and shared community memory.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Jane Coaston [03:23]: “At a baseline level, there's like, one reason you spend this much time with Jeffrey Epstein. And if it wasn't for that reason, what were you doing?”
• Tim Miller [05:39]: "Maybe he thinks it makes it better that he brought his children to the island. Not really. For me, it kind of makes it worse."
• Jane Coaston [10:28]: "[T]he right has political power but wants cultural power. They want so badly to not just be feared, but also liked, which are not the same thing."
• Jane Coaston [14:53]: "Child sex trafficker who will go to hell..."
• Lauren Boebert [16:33]: "I do not. I think, I think Ghislaine Maxwell should get more time and she should definitely be in a harsher prison than what she's in."
• CFTC Attorney (Paraphrased by Tim Miller) [23:55]: "If I were a different person, I would launch a crypto scam right now because there's no cops on the beat."
• Jane Coaston [30:21]: "There is not a single good famous doctor."
• Jane Coaston [32:17]: "No one did that more than Jeffrey Epstein. Jeffrey Epstein believed firmly that what he wanted and his desires were the most important thing in the entire world."
• Tim Miller [33:44]: (Reading Doug Band’s email exchange with Maxwell) – "My Boo Booitis is also reaching epic proportions. Lots going on, but will be in boobooville. The second you arrive."
• Jane Coaston [38:21]: "You want to be able to kill people, but you don’t want people to be mad at you for killing people."
• Jane Coaston [43:03]: "A challenge for Democrats and progressives has been that Democrats and progressives have been viewed as the combination of rich assholes who want to tell you what to do."
• Jane Coaston [51:38]: "If we are going to do this thing, we can't just have a politics of anti-Trump. We are going to need to have a pro something else politics for 2028."
• Jane Coaston [54:10]: "D.C. is a beautiful, rich community full of so much stuff, including so many people who care so deeply about sports..."

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Important Timestamps

• 01:56: Start of Epstein-Lutnick discussion
• 02:50: Lutnick’s emphatic “never again” quote
• 05:39: Implications of Lutnick visiting island (with family)
• 08:41: Why do MAGA elites still testify?
• 10:28: Perception management and cultural power
• 13:32: Ghislaine Maxwell takes the Fifth/clemency for testimony
• 16:33: Lauren Boebert on Maxwell clemency
• 18:31: Names of other implicated men (Wexner, Bin Sulayem)
• 23:55: CFTC crypto scam quote
• 30:21: Jane’s rant on 'famous doctors' and Peter Attia emails
• 33:44: Doug Band / Ghislaine Maxwell 'boobooitis' email
• 35:09: "Small bean fascism" discussion
• 39:58: AEW wrestling and 'Fuck ICE' chants
• 43:03: Democrats and the 'rich asshole' perception
• 51:38: Need for "pro-something" leftist politics
• 54:10: Washington Post sports section and community impact

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Tone & Style

• Conversational, irreverent, darkly humorous
• Candid, self-aware, and willing to criticize all sides
• A blend of policy wonkery, media analysis, and cultural commentary

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This summary encompasses major threads of the episode, giving you the key facts, memorable quotes, and the big-picture context—whether you’re interested in the unraveling Epstein scandal, 2024-2028 populism, or the fate of local sports journalism.

Transcript

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[Jane Coaston]

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[Tim Miller]

Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Delighted to welcome back to the show the host of Crooked Media's what a Day podcast, a Michigan football super fan, liberal Iterian icon. It's Jane Coston. Jane, it's been a minute and a half.

[Jane Coaston]

I'm thrilled to be back.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. What have I been doing? What's been happening in the booking department at this podcast? You know, we gotta get you in the heavy rotation, I guess. Let's see how you do.

[Jane Coaston]

Well, you know, you know, I got a couple more applications and we'll see how this goes.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, we're going to start by talking about friend of the podcast, Howard Nutlik. He was testifying this morning in front of the Senate, and they were discussing the myriad times that he was mentioned in the Epstein files. And I want to play for you a little audio of Senator Chris Van Holland of Maryland asking him about the details, the way you described very emphatically.

[Jane Coaston]

Your first encounter with him in his.

[Tim Miller]

Apartment, said you were disgusted, would never.

[Jane Coaston]

Have any contact with him again.

[Tim Miller]

Did you in fact, make the visit.

[Jane Coaston]

To Jeffrey Epstein's private island?

[Tim Miller]

I did have lunch with him as I was On a boat going across on a family vacation. My wife was with me, as were my four children and nannies. I don't. I don't recall why we did it.

[Jane Coaston]

Oh, he's a nanny.

[Tim Miller]

I don't recall why we did it. Just. Just to add a little bit to what Chris Van Hol said there, just, like, the exact quote of what Nutlik had previously said about his relationship with Epstein. He said that he went to his house, that there was a massage table in the dining room. I told a fantastical story about how weird it was. And then he said this. In the six to eight steps it takes to get from his house to my house, my wife and I decided that I will never be in the room with that disgusting person ever again. After that, they did it. They did go to the island, though, it sounds like.

[Jane Coaston]

And they kept emailing. One of my favorite things about Howard Lutnick is that he. Whatever it is, he's the most emphatic person in any direction. He is, like, Lindsey Graham level emphatic. But if Lindsey Graham felt the way he feels about bombing Iran on, like, absolutely everything. So this story about him being like, this was disgusting, repulsive. This allegedly took place in 2005. I was on the boat. Did we get off the boat? Why was I there? My nanny was there. My children were there. That would have been like 2012. And then they kept emailing, and we're, like, having nice times. I mean, the thing. I mean, we've talked about this a little bit, Tim, like, at a. At a baseline level, there's, like, one reason you spend this much time with Jeffrey Epstein. And if it wasn't for that reason, what were you doing? He was terrible at emailing. Most of his emails don't make any sense. I had the extreme misfortune of watching part of the documentary Steve Bannon was working on with him to a pro Epstein documentary to counter the Netflix documentary Jeffrey Epstein, Filthy Rich. Because Bannon was like, oh, we got to get your side of the story. And they spend, like, a long time discussing the fact that Jesus never wrote anything down. And I'm like, this year, sex offender king. This guy. This is what we're doing. This was worth all of this. This guy. Maybe the lunch was really good.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I want to kind of answer your rhetorical there a little bit. What else could you have been emailing Jeffrey Epstein about besides child sex trafficking? Well, in 2018, 13 years after Lutnick said he would never be in the room with a disgusting person again, he tried to enlist Jeffrey Epstein in a NIMBY to block a museum from expanding near them. So that was one reason that they reached out. They got into a business partnership acquiring a tech company between 2012 and 2014.

[Jane Coaston]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

He was in the room with this disgusting person a lot after 2005. A lot. And I don't, you know, maybe he thinks it makes it better that he brought his children to the island. Not really. So for me, it kind of makes it worse for me also.

[Jane Coaston]

I love that he needed to. It's like. And the nanny, just to be clear, because I'm like, this poor nanny didn't ask for any of this.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Because I didn't parent. I wasn't parenting. Just to be clear, I was actually parenting on this boat trip to the Caribbean.

[Jane Coaston]

Not quite like Elon Musk level, I will say. The Elon Musk emails from like Christmas morning being like, get me the fuck out of here. I hate all these people. What's going on in your island? What's the craziest day slash night where I could be not near anyone I am allegedly genetically related to? I can't imagine what Elon Musk Christmas is like. I'm. I'm horrified by the thoughts. I just may imagine, like, I don't know, some sort of Android illusion. But like every email it was just like, you're all terrible. You're all terrible. Except for like, Tina Brown. Tina Brown and Julie K. Brown, who was indeed a problem. Just as they thought.

[Tim Miller]

We're going to get to Julie K. Brown. Yeah. Just a couple of thoughts there. This is probably an unnecessary aside, but it's something that I just can't help but obsess over. Small correction. Elon did suggest to Epstein that he wanted to bring whatever woman he was attached to at the time to the island to the wildest party. That ex wife is now married to the little boy from the Peter Pan movie. Did you know this?

[Jane Coaston]

What?

[Tim Miller]

What? I'm getting an open chat message from the producer. I don't know what's happening. Hold on. We're gonna stop. Yeah. So it turns out the producer message there was to not correcting me on the husband of Elon Musk's ex. It was to ask you to put your headphones on. But during that period where you got your headphones on, I have to correct myself. He was actually. He's the drummer boy from Love, actually.

[Jane Coaston]

Wait, really?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Thomas Sangster. Yeah. So Elon's. Elon's had so many wives, it's hard to remember which number she was. But yeah, Elon's at the time spouse, Tallulah Riley, left Elon and got together with the kid that was the drummer in love, actually.

[Jane Coaston]

Wait, the kid who runs through the airport? Liam Neeson's son?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, yeah. He has a crush on the black girl. Yeah, yeah, that's him. They're married now. Anyway. Maybe we can get them on the show.

[Jane Coaston]

I have so many more questions along that direction, but let's stay.

[Tim Miller]

Okay. Let's stay focused. I have two closing thoughts on Nublik. One was, if you're the type of person that has a boat in the Caribbean with a nanny and have that kind of resources, there are a lot of good lunches to be had. Like, great food there in the Caribbean, a lot of other rich people, many potential options over on St. Barts, other private islands. Private islands.

[Jane Coaston]

Other private islands that do not like. I kind of like the implication that Jeffrey Epstein was just like the only possible option for lunch. Like, you know, like, you were on, like, the drive between Cincinnati and St. Louis and it was either you turn over at the turnpike or you just go hungry.

[Tim Miller]

It's not like from St. Barth's to St. Martin, the only good lunch you can find is on Little St. Jeff's Sex Pretty Island. Anyway, I have a question for you related to this net, like testimony. And I hate to give these guys any ideas, so I apologize in advance. But why is he doing it? On the one hand, they have broken every norm imaginable. They don't really seem to care about following the laws. Donald Trump just makes rules, be executive fiat. They've completely neutered Congress in every imaginable way. But in this specific area of where they get called to testify and humiliated, they're still doing it. And on some level, I enjoy that because it's good for those of us who want to watch and be humiliated. It doesn't seem like what you would do if you were planning on becoming Mussolini. Like, why would Mussolini send the people in his circle to get pants?

[Jane Coaston]

Right.

[Tim Miller]

You know, in front of the liga.

[Jane Coaston]

Yeah. I think that there's a sense I have some semblance of hope in just like, basic, not institutional norms, because those fell away a while back. But I do think that the one thing this administration cares a lot about, though, they will pretend that they don't. They care a lot about perception management, a lot about it. And so you can see that with Kristi Noem saying that the Department of Homeland Security, once they figure out the budget stuff, because obviously that, you know, they're still debating about DHS reforms. They will send federal immigration officers body cams, which you would think that there's a version of this story where Stephen Miller is running all of this and he just says, fuck all of you. I hate you. I hate everyone. Nobody camps.

[Tim Miller]

Right.

[Jane Coaston]

But that's not what they're doing. And there does seem to be a sense like, yes, Donald Trump will invent polls in which he's doing amazing. Like, I think that over the last couple of days, he was posting about how I'm doing so great in this poll, but it was a poll of Trump supporters, which, sure, whatever. But I think that the perception management is still key. There is a sense of we want to be liked. And I think that that actually in a funny way ties back to. I've been thinking a lot about the alleged conservative uproar over the Bad Bunny halftime show, which unless you are being paid to be mad about it, you are not actually mad about it. Like, there are people who are getting their checks there. And I'm like, God bless you, that mortgage payment came. And you were like, well, looks like I'm going to discover what I'm mad about today. But there is nothing. I think the American right wants more even with having political power. Elizabeth Bruinig made this point years ago. She writes for the Atlantic that the left has cultural power but wants political power. And the right has political power but wants cultural power. They want so badly to not just be feared, but also liked, which are not the same thing. You know, there are DHS 8chan white nationalist posting. They will do that all day. But they also very much want everyone to like them. Also they want a story of this in which they are a besieged victim, but also an overwhelming army of strength. But also everybody loves them. And it's a complicated story to try and keep telling yourself that, but I think that that's why they keep sending these people to do hearings and also why, I think, especially on this particular story, they recognize that this isn't good. Fox News has tried to spin this by just simply never discussing it. I think that there is some new data reflecting, I think Mediaite had it today, talking about how basically right wing media just has stopped covering this story. Unless it is amusing, though National Review was like, well, let's talk about Epstein and Keir Starmer, which I was like, all right, guys, come on. This time zone, or actually these time zones. But I do think that there's a sense of perception matters to this administration. They want to be perceived as strong and popular. And this entire story I think gives away the game that they are neither to that point.

[Tim Miller]

Hiding from Congress would also reveal very clearly that you're neither strong nor popular if you have to run from Chris Van Holland.

[Jane Coaston]

Yeah. Which I like Chris Van Holland, but not the most terrifying person I've ever met in my life.

[Tim Miller]

I do have to correct myself for the second time already on this podcast. I just kind of somewhere in my brain was like, who would Mussolini's guys have to testify to? And I was like, the Liga thinking that was what the parliament is called. That's not true, actually. That's what the soccer league. That's what the Italian soccer league is called. So probably Mussolini's guys would not be testifying in front of. Of the football players. But, you know, it was a pull.

[Jane Coaston]

That's an amusing mental picture. Yeah, it was a pull. Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

I'm doing my best. Other news on the Epstein front, Ghislaine Maxwell, she took the Fifth on Monday. She refused to answer questions during a deposition before the House Oversight Committee. Taking more of the route that I thought maybe Nutlik might have taken. Her lawyer says she will talk, though, if she gets clemency from Donald Trump.

[Jane Coaston]

Yep.

[Tim Miller]

And she also just said, by the way, the one thing she will say to the lawyer going ahead is if you give me the clemency, one of the things I will say is that I will totally clear Donald Trump and Bill Clinton of any wrongdoing. So just FYI, I got other stuff, too, that I'll say. But that's the one little carrot I'll give you in case you decide to give me clemency.

[Jane Coaston]

This was very predictable because. Yeah, but I also will say that one, refusing to say anything until you are pardoned for sex trafficking, which, you know, that's what clemency would imply. I am trying to imagine a world in which even Donald Trump. Even Donald Trump, somewhere in his lizard brain of, like, maintaining some sort of illusion of popular standing. Even Donald Trump understands that pardoning Ghislaine Maxwell would be a really bad idea. Like, a really bad idea. I think my favorite thing about Ghislaine Maxwell, the convicted sex trafficker who will.

[Tim Miller]

Child sex trafficker.

[Jane Coaston]

Child sex trafficker who will go to hell, is that it's not a good sign for you that the, like, best defense of you was written in the Spectator, which is a British newspaper where the author just kept talking about how beautiful she was at Oxford. And I was like, oh, no, that's not going to help you. Every Ghislaine Maxwell story is like, her father like blindingly wealthy right wing media magnate fell off a yacht, maybe, maybe was murdered. Who could say the yacht was named the Lady Ghislaine? Like, every detail about Ghislaine Maxwell is the most like, do not, you know, like dead bird. Do not touch, like, do not, do not go anywhere near her. If I were Ghislaine Maxwell, which I wouldn't be, I also would not have just been like, just so you know, here's what part of my testimony is going to be that testimony that's totally truthful. And I am asking for a pardon for my totally trustworthy testimony. Like, no, no, no yet to know.

[Tim Miller]

You know, how big of a no it is. Even Lauren Boebert of Hand the Job during Beetlejuice, the musical fame looked at that and was like, I don't think so. The DOJ shared some unredactive material with a few members of Congress, including Boebert. She was walking out of the Capitol yesterday and was asked about what she saw and about the possible Maxwell pardon. And let's listen to Lauren Boebert.

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Any reaction on what you've seen so far?

[Jane Coaston]

I think that there's folks who are definitely implicated and co conspirators. And you know, I don't think everyone there that was talking about underage girls being trafficked are victims.

[Tim Miller]

Got it.

[Rocket Money Announcer]

And do you support any clemency for Ghislaine Maxwell? She was saying that she.

[Jane Coaston]

I do not. I think, I think Ghislaine Maxwell should get more time and she should definitely be in a harsher prison than what she's in.

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It's absolutely disgusting.

[Tim Miller]

It's absolutely disgusting. One cheer for Lauren Boebert.

[Jane Coaston]

I know. I'm like, I also agree that she should not be at a facility where she's allowed to train puppies. Which I'm like, what did the puppies do to the puppies? Didn't do anything here. Allowing Ghislaine Maxwell to train a dog.

[Tim Miller]

My God, she deserves more of like a pet tarantula. Among the other things we learned. So Rokhan and Thomas Massey got to keep shouting out on this. They had a news conference yesterday. Well, just back in one second. What I've continued to say about this, you have to set a bar for what could people possibly be satisfied for? What could victims be satisfied for? And what would demonstrate that there's at least some effort to be transparent and be good faith and have accountability when it comes to the Epstein question and to the answer to that is that we have to learn about the other co conspirators Obviously it wasn't just Jeffrey Epstein, Glenn Maxwell and Andrew, formerly known as Prince. They were not the only people that were involved in the sex crimes. So there needs to be more information provided and hopefully indictments and accountability for the other people that were involved in the sex crimes. We made a little progress on that front. Yesterday, Khan Massie said that they saw the names and photos of six men likely implicated. Massie later divulged two of them. Les Wexner, Victoria's Secret and Epstein's patron. That's a not surprising one. And then Sultan Ahmed Bin Solyum of the uae. He was apparently the one that sent Epstein the torture video. Julie Brown, he mentioned earlier Miami Herald reporter has been so good on this, wrote that she knows of two survivors who say they were trafficked by Epstein to that Sultan. They don't know each other, but their stories are similar. They won't go public because they are afraid. So some baby steps towards co conspirator accountability from Brown, Massie, Khan, other We.

[Jane Coaston]

Knew several years ago that Wexner was like, why doesn't Jeffrey Epstein deal with my entire fortune? For reasons just because, you know, I love just giving a guy all of my money to do something with. Yeah, who could say?

[Tim Miller]

A lot of people could have your power of attorney if you're the Victoria's Secret founder, former company CEO, somebody in your progeny, someone with the last name Wexner. But choosing Jeffrey Epstein did raise some eyebrows. Like why would I give Epstein total control over my fortune? This episode of the Bulwark Podcast is brought to you by Wild Grain. Wild Grain is the first baked from frozen subscription box for sourdough breads, artisanal pastries and fresh pastas. Plus all items conveniently bake in 25 minutes or less. Unlike many store bought options, Wild Grain uses simple ingredients you can pronounce and a slow fermentation process that can be easier on your belly and richer in nutrients and antioxidants. We love an antioxidant. There's no preservatives, no shortcuts. Wild Grains boxes are fully customizable. In addition to their variety box, they've got a gluten free box and a new protein box. I think I mentioned before what I enjoyed about the Wild grain experience was the cinnamon rolls. You know, was the morning, the morning breads. You're not really supposed to be doing your grains in the morning, really every day. Probably not, but my mother gave me cinnamon rolls as a kid and that elicits positive memories. So it's just Nice. If you wake up on a Sunday, you want to give the kid a little treat, they're right there in the freezer. You don't need to have them all the time, but you got it there ready to go. When you just need a little Sunday pick me up. There's nothing like having an artisan bakery in your freezer to chase away the winter chill. Now is the best time to stay in and enjoy comforting homemade meals with wild grain. I highly recommend giving Wild Grain a try. Right now, Wild Grain is offering our listeners 30 bucks off your first box, plus free Croissants for Life when you go to wildgreen.com the bulwark to start your subscription today. That's 30 bucks off your first box and free Croissants for Life when YOU visit wildgrain.com the bulwark or you can use promo code the Bulwark at checkout. The other thing I just want to flag here is the crypto corruption connection. There's a number of different angles here, but I want to start first with this sultan from the uae. And I don't know if the Sultan and the Sheikh are friends. The UAE is a big country, a lot of people there. But it does raise some eyebrows for me that the sheik that was the point man for putting half a billion dollars into the Trump and Witkoff families private crypto company was also from the uae, the country that then we gave access to the AI chips that are supposed to be key to our competitiveness in the future global marketplace. Even if the Sultan and the Sheikh aren't friends, it's kind of like why presidents aren't supposed to be doing half a billion dollars of shady private businesses with other countries leaders and oligarchs. Because it looks not great.

[Jane Coaston]

Nope, nope, not good. To his credit, Andrew McCarthy, who's a very, very, very conservative writer for National Review, has been working on a five part series about Trump's corruption for National Review. And I have been entertained by all of the comments just being like, well, Biden also did things and it's like it's not even. The scale is just, I mean, Hunter.

[Tim Miller]

Biden's hideous paintings were sold for over market value for sure. For sure. I mean, I definitely, I think that's fair. I don't think he netted 495 million on them.

[Jane Coaston]

No, he did not.

[Tim Miller]

And I'm not sure. I guess we're not sure. Maybe somebody in the Epstein files bought them.

[Jane Coaston]

But it's like, I will note that as far as we can tell, Hunter Biden not in the Epstein files.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Cause he didn't need anybody's help.

[Jane Coaston]

Nope, nope. He was. He had that part handled. But do you remember a couple of years ago during the super bowl where like every ad was for crypto and like Sam Bankman Fried's company, which currently Sam Bankman Fried is writing long Twitter threads about how mean Joe Biden was to him, tagging Donald Trump on everyone being like, please, I really hate prison. But like, it is indicative to me that one of the main challenges of cryptocurrency is that you appear to not be able to use it without doing something sketchy and illegal. That is Donald Trump and Sultans, we should say.

[Tim Miller]

Also the Sultan was at Trump's first inaugural. So just kind of wrap this up. From what we are knowing so far from the Epstein class and the Epstein files, one of the first co conspirators being named, alleged co conspirators is a UAE sultan that has been pictured with Donald Trump, went to his inauguration and is from the country that just did a corrupt crooked deal with Donald Trump's cryptocurrency. So we'll keep an eye on that. There is a barren story about crypto. No one to talk to you about that I think is a nice encapsulation about where we are in the late Republic. Here's the scoop. There is only one enforcement attorney left at the CFTC Chicago office. This is known as a group of heavy hitters, attorneys, investigators that have had a role in most of the enforcement actions of the cftc. Many of the attorneys were pushed out, were kind of mid career investigators who have gone after prime, you know, kind of financial crimes in the past. One of them told Barron's on background, if I were a different person, I would launch a crypto scam right now because there's no cops on the beat.

[Jane Coaston]

I mean, yeah, absolutely. And you know, we can look at Trump's own family of people who all just putting out meme coins and from which only they benefit. And I think that like again, cryptocurrency keeps just being predominantly used for scams and for shady businesses that are themselves in some way scams.

[Tim Miller]

It's kind of like a Russian nesting doll of scams.

[Jane Coaston]

Exactly.

[Tim Miller]

I think I'm a little bit torn on this because on the one hand I do think that crypto is almost entirely a scam and fake and a house of cards that will collapse. I understand that there are some use cases for blockchain and stablecoin that smart tech people, I trust their analysis that their use cases, I understand there's some use cases for aftermarket trading, things of this nature. I recognize that. But the vast majority of it is a scam. I think that the Democrats can hurt themselves politically by not familiarizing themselves enough with crypto to even be able to talk about it. Like, it's kind of. I think that the impression of the Biden administration was that they were just fully hostile to crypto and that nobody even knew what they were doing. And I think that there was like a political cohort of, you know, young podcast bros that this was like one of the things that attracted them to Trump 2.0. And so I'm a little bit torn at what to do now if you're the Democrats, because I'm kind of frustrated that it seems like reining in, you know, the thieves would be, should be a pretty important part of their agenda. But I do wonder if that's, I don't know, that's a mistake. Maybe. Maybe they should also just kind of pretend like we're on Treasure island and let everybody run wild too. What do you think about that?

[Jane Coaston]

This goes to. I've been thinking a lot about, like, kind of the, the you're already starting to see the 2028 posturing from Democrats. And there was a lot of talk in 2024 about like, crypto bros. Like, the crypto bros were so critical to this. And like, I, I get that there was like, there were multiple pods of people who supported Trump for various reasons because they believed that he could be wielded to their purposes, which is what people thought in 2016. People keep thinking that they can wield Trump in some way. Like, oh, if he could be turned, he would be a powerful asset. And then it's like, no, he's just going to fuck up your life. He's just going to fuck up your life in every single way. And you're starting to see that on crypto from these crypto bros. And I think that we're starting to see this from, say, Georgia Senator John Ossoff. Like, there is a strong anti elite message that can be used that I think would prove effective. Now, granted, I am not, do not look to me for like, political guidance, but I do think that, like, the kind of these people are scammers and they're trying to take your money is a far more effective message than we will help you make money through this thing that we don't entirely understand. Pokemon, go to the Pulse. Like, I just feel like this seems scammy. Asaf used the Term, I think over the weekend, one he's been lifting and it's working for him. And as somebody who likes to do push ups, I'm like, game recognizes game. But also he started talking about the Epstein class. It's an easy shorthand to refer to all of these people. And I think cryptocurrency billionaires would be decidedly of that class, especially given now what we know. And so I do think that populism is incredibly dangerous to me. In my view, more accurately, I think that populism is a weapon. It's not actually a politics. Steve Bannon, who loves Jeffrey Epstein and thought that he was quote, brilliant, brilliant, brilliant, has been wielding or kind of using populism as a vehicle to gain power for himself for 11 years now. But I do think that the sentiment of like, these people are trying to benefit from your hard earned money, time, energy, and they're doing so through these corrupt means. That can be a very effective message. And I would far rather personally see Democrats use that than try to be like, we're going to help you use crypto, especially because it just seems like time and time and time and time and time again, somebody makes a lot of money out of crypto. They make actual currency that can be actually wielded or used and then a bunch of people get left holding the bag.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, maybe one answer to that just kind of listening to those was rolling over my head, is maybe they just. Democrats need to nominate one person who understands this world and can use the language authentically. Maybe this is a job for Ruben Gallego. He comes to mind to just be like guys, you know, if you're a legit Ethereum holder, like your life is being made worse by these guys. Like the market is crashing. You know there's going to be huge investigations next time they're stealing from you. You know, there's an insider class that is getting rich while you're holding the bag. I do think that that might be something worth doing. Let's talk about something nobody wants to talk about. Well, except, except my mother, she loves talking about this. What happens when you die? Because unfortunately it's going to happen to all of us. Maybe unless the singularity comes. But either way, you can be prepared. Trust and Will. Online estate planning is the way to do it. You can create an estate plan with Trust and Will in as little as 30 minutes. If you don't know where to start or overwhelmed by questions you might not know the answer to. Trust and Will's online platform provides a step by step guided process and offers optional one on one support from attorneys in your state. Trust and Will believes estate planning should be accessible to everyone. So they're committed to making it affordable today and highly valuable tomorrow. Don't wait until it's too late. Protect your loved ones today, tomorrow and beyond with Trust and Will. The most trusted name and online estate planning. Go to trustandwill.com bulwark and get 20% off. That's trustandwill.com bulwark to get 20% off. Trustandwill.com bulwark your comment on fitness culture there made me wonder if you had any takes on Peter Attia. I figure you probably do.

[Jane Coaston]

Yes.

[Tim Miller]

Peter Attia, for people who don't know, is the new CBS Longevity doctor. Yeah, Longevity doctor.

[Jane Coaston]

At this point, I think we can officially say that if you're a famous doctor. Nothing good. Nothing good.

[Tim Miller]

There's not a single good famous doctor.

[Jane Coaston]

Let's think about them.

[Tim Miller]

Dr. Oz, Dr. Drew, Dr. Jill Biden.

[Jane Coaston]

I mean technically, technically, look, if you got your doctorate, it took you a really long time. My sister has her doctorate. I will never say anything against people who have doctorates. They are beloved in the eyes of God. But Peter Itia, you know, I joked in the show that he's very big with on Instagram and TikTok with people who know what Zone two training is and who like count their macros, of which I am one of those people. His emails to Epstein, it's not just like emailing Epstein. Like Deepak Chopra was emailing Epstein. Gross things. Like all these disgusting people were emailing Epstein. But Atiya's emails are so like obsequious. He emailed his assistant like, oh, you know, I go into je. Jeffrey Epstein withdrawal when I don't hear from him. And I'm like, that's not even getting into the even more disgusting things that he said. But just also being like, you know, the hardest thing about being friends with you is that I can't even tell anyone about how crazy your life is. Just like, what, what are we doing here? Like, what, what is it? And especially because he's claiming like, you know, he just asked for me for medical advice. And but it just like the degree of obsequiousness here. That's the thing is like you see all of these incredibly powerful people who are powerful, who are wealthy, who do have a lot of, you know, the, the time and energy of others placed on them. Atiya hosts a podcast or hosted, I don't know, seeing him or getting like having appointments with him cost $100,000. And based on the quality of his emails. I don't know what you're getting, but, like, the degree to which all of these people. I know we kind of went back.

[Tim Miller]

I know now that we're back at Epstein, I had one more episode.

[Jane Coaston]

I know, I know.

[Tim Miller]

But it's like, I was like, I haven't done another thing on Epstein. But you finish.

[Jane Coaston]

No, no, no. But just the degree of obsequiousness all towards this one guy is just, like, it's desperately repulsive. Just desperately. Like, I mean, we see this with rfk. There's a deep hollowness in fitness culture, because fitness culture at its best can be about, like, community. Like, over this past weekend, I competed in, like, an ultra marathon relay where we were raising money to help rebuild Altadena, which is one of the neighborhoods that was destroyed during the fires last year. And, like, that was a really cool community event. And at no point was anyone thinking about looks, maxing or. Or putting such extraordinary focus on the individual. I think Peter Attia really preys on people for whom the only thing they can control is the self. And he basically was one of those people who made the self into the only entity that matters. And no one did that more than Jeffrey Epstein. Jeffrey Epstein believed firmly that what he wanted and his desires were the most important thing in the entire world. And he was willing to consume and throw away so many young women and girls in order to get what he wanted. And I think that that selfishness is reflected in the emails with all of these people, all of these people who were so willing to be like, yes, Jeffrey Epstein, it's so sad what's happened to you, Jeffrey Epstein. Noam Chomsky trying to help him. Like, come on, come on.

[Tim Miller]

I promise you, I want to move on. But that rant forced me to bring up the email that has been haunting me that I have not got a chance to mention on the podcast. And that is from Bill Clinton's top aide in his post presidency, Doug Bandt. This is an exchange between him and Ghislaine Maxwell. Maxwell writes to Band. Boo. Boo, are you around? I'm very ill and require immediate medical attention. I am suffering from booboo. Itis a very serious condition. Without a booboo fix, the symptoms become very pronounced. She referred to cries in the night that sound like Shakespeare sonnets that sound like this. Oh, Douglas. O Douglas, wherefore art thou, Douglas? Doug Band replied, my Boo Booitis is also reaching epic proportions. Lots going on, but will be in boobooville. The second you arrive. I wanted to kill myself when I read that email. And so I obviously had no choice but to share it with you and the listeners.

[Jane Coaston]

So many of these emails, it's like the photo of Peter Mandelson, former UK Ambassador to the United States, standing in his underpants, which was featured in these DOJ things. Like, all of these are like the Ring video. But actually, if I, I really hope that that lady from the Ring comes out of the television suit, because I'm like, I'm good. Like, you know, you don't need to take your six days or whatever. I'm. I'm good to go.

[Tim Miller]

Our friend of the show, Adam Serwer, actual friend of the show, not like Howard Nutlik. He was on a couple weeks ago. He gave us an assignment. I posted this on social media and I want to move on to talk about Minneapolis a little bit, and I thought this was pretty insightful. He said, we need to talk about the rise of small bean fascism, where you're on the side that has all the guns and the immunity, but the really scary people are the ones with the whistles, and they're giving you generational trauma and PTSD by filming you killing people for no reason. And I do think we should talk about that.

[Jane Coaston]

Yes, I think that that is such a good point. You see that everywhere. I mean, it kind of goes to my point about how the Trump administration wants to both have overwhelming power, but also be the sad victims of somebody else who has more power. For example, I saw that yesterday, the Rasmussen account, which I was like, if you left that company, you should tell everybody you did that. Because now they're posting about how, like, did Trump get Jeffrey Epstein out of the country and fake his death and send him to Israel? And all the replies to that are like, well, you know, Trump doesn't run the FBI. You know, that's where the deep state is. I'm like, bitch. It's been two terms. It has been two terms.

[Tim Miller]

Kash Patel is a charge now.

[Jane Coaston]

Yes. Like, literally. Now, granted, Kash Patel just wants to watch hockey and hang out with his girlfriend. And I, for one, support him doing that and not doing any actual work. But the degree to which this administration and so many of its supporters want the power but want no responsibility. That is that small being fascism of like, you want to be able to kill people, but you don't want people to be mad at you for killing people. You want to believe as if your victimhood takes center stage. But also, you have all of the power and so it's a real sense. I was talking to the host of Pod Save the UK for the show that came out today, and we were talking about how there's kind of an overarching sense that Democrats have to always be the adults. Democrats and progressives always have to be the adults. Like, there's a sense of, like, Trump is allowed to be a wheedling child, and he's allowed to be a wheedling child. And then you'll get the excuses like, well, Candy Crowley was mean to Mitt Romney. And I'm like, that was 14 years ago. I have had it explained to me multiple times by people who worked on the Obama campaign. And each time I'm like, I still don't understand what they're pretending to be mad about. But I do think, like, that small being fascism, it doesn't even have the chutzpah to be like, we are Il Duce. We are, you know, ein Volch, ein Reich, ein Fuhrer. It's like, we are Ein Fuhrer, but please don't be mad at us. We'd be so sad if you were mad at us, like, the most.

[Tim Miller]

Hurting my little ears.

[Jane Coaston]

I know. Like, they're, you know, the whistles are so mean. But also, like, the ways in which people are describing, like, the signal groups that protesters are using. Minneapolis, which I'm like, this all sounds kind of like how you would organize, I don't know, a pretty decent bake sale at a private grade school. Like, they're like, oh, there are thousands of people on these signals and organizing drop points. And then like, the photographs are like, it's like boxes of hot hands. Yeah, right. It's a box of hot hands.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Jane Coaston]

And some cocoa and some coats.

[Tim Miller]

And you guys are dressed like you're invading Fallujah.

[Jane Coaston]

I know, I know. And I'm just like, it's that complete unwillingness to take responsibility but to just so desire the power. So not only are you convincing yourself that actually you don't have real power because someone somewhere is doing something you don't like, and if you had real power, they just wouldn't. But also this idea of, like, I am actually the victim here. You made me do this. This is also very difficult. People are being very mean to me, and I don't like it. And I think that small bean fascism is such a really eloquent way of putting it.

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[Tim Miller]

I noticed you sent a skeet on Bluesky about the AEW Fuck Ice chant and it kind of made it seem like you're familiar with the AEW and. And I am not. People missed AEW's a kind of an alt wrestling league, I guess, and people were shouting Fuck Ice during the match, which I. Which I took to be a good sign because it kind of doesn't seem to me like the AEW audience, you know, would map over the audience for like the Lawrence o' Donnell show or anything like that. But maybe, but I don't know. But. So I'm hoping you can educate me a little bit.

[Jane Coaston]

One of the people who was in that match is Brody King. He's been wearing like abolished Ice stuff. He was the one who was kind of like nodding in approval. And I think that there really is a small L. Libertarian viewpoint that I think you see throughout wrestling fandom. There's very much a sense of like a distrust and distaste with authority. And you see that in both fans of, you know, AEW or wwe. You know, this match was in Vegas. Obviously a lot of people who are going to go to an AEW match in Vegas are going to be people who work in the service industry and are probably like, yeah, fuck us. Fuck these people who are ruining our lives and ruining the lives of people we care about.

[Tim Miller]

That's interesting you say that though, but just kind of to put my political nerd hat on for a second. That's specifically the group that Trump tried to win over with the no tax on tips. And that's like literally the demo.

[Jane Coaston]

Yep.

[Tim Miller]

So it's noteworthy.

[Jane Coaston]

Exactly. Yeah. No it is noteworthy, but I also think, like, the politics of wrestling are actually very equivalent to kind of, you know, when people talk about, like, kind of the bro podcasters, they can tell who the underdog is and they can tell who's being an asshole. They will only root for the asshole in a wrestling sense. But they kind of. They understand what power looks like and the misuse of power, and they do not like it. Wrestling is great because it's both a sport and theater. It's very, very hard. And also, you're acting through the entire thing. But there are so many tropes that are so easy to understand. And one of the easiest tropes in wrestling is like, rich asshole guy. Rich asshole guy who's a heel. Everybody gets that. And then the face is, you know, nice underdog guy you're rooting for. People get that now, yes, sometimes people root for the rich asshole, which is why Trump is in the WWE hall of Fame. But, you know, people wanted to see Vince McMahon get his head shaved. People wanted to see Vince McMahon get hit with a chair. There's a real theme here of people wanting to see Vince McMahon get hurt in various ways because he's a terrible person who's kind of responsible for multiple deaths. But that's a different story altogether. That is the American populism, not the, like, Steve Bannon anti elite bullshit in which he's trying to take over Europe with the health of Jeffrey Epstein. But it kind of like, we don't like rich assholes. We don't like rich assholes, and we don't like being told what to do. You know, I think you and I may have talked about this, but a challenge for Democrats and progressives has been that Democrats and progressives have been viewed as the combination of rich assholes who want to tell you what to do.

[Tim Miller]

Yes.

[Jane Coaston]

And I think that the further you can get away from that, the further you can get towards, like, look, we want you to have, you know, be able to access the best things in life for your family and the best things in life for people who care about you, and fuck anybody who's gonna get in the way of doing that. And also fuck these people who are out here trying to tell you how to live your life, trying to tell you what to do, trying to take away your right to marry because we're doing bad again.

[Tim Miller]

It does show just how bad of a place the Democratic brand got themselves into where they were, like, losing the rich asshole test kind of to Trump, and not in the way that, like, Trump was Obviously more of an asshole, but like, there was a sense, I think among the types of folks that we're talking about here that like, he.

[Jane Coaston]

Was kind of self aware of it. That's the thing.

[Tim Miller]

Trump was the rich asshole that was on their side.

[Jane Coaston]

Yes.

[Tim Miller]

And the Democratic rich assholes were like, you know, Ivy League types that were sniffing their farts and running the tech companies and running the wars. And like the Democrats kind of ended up because, you know, Trump was so anti establishment, like representing like the establishment elite. And I do think that that is where like the ICE thing is like presented an opportunity for the Democrats, like for the first time really since the Iraq war and the surveillance state that the Democrats can be now on the side of. Wait a minute. No, they are the ones that are masked and have the jackboots. They're the ones that are spying on you. They're the ones that are in the Epstein class. Right. They're the ones that are covering up crimes for rich people. That sort of ties the kind of ICE and Epstein and other stuff together and gives the Democrats an opportunity to once again take that mantle. And I think they kind of failed to do that during this kind of Clinton to Harris era.

[Jane Coaston]

I mean, that's kind of where not to get into this. But that kind of criticism of neoliberalism, there are some people who took that as being like, everybody's very mad about NAFTA or, I don't know, something else. But what it actually was was like, hey, it feels like the concerns of people who don't get to do any of this are being ignored. For people who spend a lot of time going to Davos, which was kind of funny how Trump is supposed to be like the anti Davos person and then he's just like, I'm going to go to Davos and scream about Greenland. One of the hard things about politics will always be that you are going to have more people who are of the elite, who are heavily invested in politics than people who are not. And I wish that weren't true. And I hope someday that. I think that there's a lot of work to be done to make that less true, to get a politic of the many, even though it will not look the way anyone ever thinks it will. I think that there's this idea that people have that like, the working class would either simultaneously be like, way more liberal or way more conservative than they actually are, but, like, they're neither. It's kind of like a weird juxtaposition, a weird combination. I understand people for whom? The years between 1995, Republican Revolution, 94, 95, and basically through the financial crisis and then going to 2016. I can understand for people that they're just like, that was just a whole lot of time where nobody listened to me.

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[Tim Miller]

I do want to pick your brain about and I'll let you go. One is just I looked through your Blue sky feed and looking through your Blue sky feed made me wonder why you're blue skying. And one of the posts that you reposted said this. Too many people on bluesky think that relentless expressions of despair are a sign of intellectual sophistication. I liked that. That's something that bugs me. Some people get mad at me that I'm still on, you know, the Hellscape with Elon. I can feel like my rationale for doing that is different than maybe a regular person's. Like, I'm not trying to speak to people in the echo chamber. Like, my point is to try to reach people outside the echo chamber. So that's why I'm there. But I want you to make the pitch to me for why? Why Skeet?

[Jane Coaston]

I think it is a useful place to be one. Honestly, a lot of the sports people who I know and really respect moved over there. And so there is a section of Blue sky which is magical, where it's just nice People talking about sports, and at no point is anyone screaming about, like, whatever Clay Travis had to say about anything. And I'm like, ooh, this is nice. Like, it's just a nice place to be. Like the Olympics. It's been great. My good friend Roger Sherman is covering the Olympics, and he posts every day about stuff to watch and fun things that are happening. Like, you know, the US Is in the gold medal match and curling, and he's super pumped about it. And I'm like, yes, there's a real. I think because it is less algorithmically determined, there is some really beautifully organic things that can happen, especially around sports, which makes me happy. But I would also say that I think Blue sky offers an opportunity to people who are either. And this is an important separation, people who are either on the political left or people who really fucking hate Donald Trump. And I think that those two groups are weirdly, have been at loggerheads for a really long time, and it drives me nuts.

[Tim Miller]

By political left, do you mean, like, in the sense just. Just for listeners? Because this stuff is all getting, like, slice and dice?

[Jane Coaston]

Yes.

[Tim Miller]

You mean like leftists, like Bernie.

[Jane Coaston]

I mean like leftists.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Like, as a shorthand, kind of the Bernie crowd.

[Jane Coaston]

Yes, Bernie crowd. There's a version of the United States in which we have a different political structure and we have lots of political parties, and technically we do, but we don't. And so you see how often. I think there was a great visual, I believe, in the New Yorker, where it's like, it's comparing conservatism and liberalism, and it's like, you know, with conservatives, you've got all the red arrows pointed in one direction, just screaming at Democrats all the time. And then you've got this image of all these blue arrows all pointing in different directions, all screaming at each other. And that is not helpful. But you also have this sense of, like, a doomerism, of like, if everybody just had the politics I have, then we wouldn't be in this mess. That is the view of a child.

[Tim Miller]

Well, it's also kind of the view of a fascist. It's like, not democracy. You can't be part of the pro democracy movement, but say that you don't want to hear from the 89% of people that don't agree with you on everything.

[Jane Coaston]

Right, Exactly. But I want to counter the leftist doomerism and also the leftist sense that if people just did things their way, everything would be so much different and everyone is doomed because people will never understand how to do things. The correct way, which is their way.

[Tim Miller]

Interesting. So in that way you're saying that you don't see it as a bubble because you have a meaningful disagreement with them and you're trying to offer some influence in that sense.

[Jane Coaston]

Oh yeah. But I think that there's also something that I want to disrupt on Blue sky and elsewhere is leftism or any political cadre is a club as kind of like if you don't do things this way, you can't hang out with us. And leftism as an identity rather than as a like a politics you're trying to get somewhere towards. Like, do you want to be in power or do you want to yell at people who are in power? Because those are two different things. And you see that already with people being like, oh, why isn't Zoramdani, I don't know, liquidated the kulaks yet? And I'm like, it's only February. But like there's a sense of like, if we are going to do this thing, we can't just have a politics of anti Trump. We are going to need to have a pro something else politics for 2028. You have to be forward looking. And so on Blue sky. What I am attempting to do one is just like enjoy myself talking about sports and stuff with people I like. But also I am attempting to ask people to create a pro something politic, not just a I really hate liberals. Like there are people in Blue sky for whom, you know, they would have Trump stay at their house before they would ever entertain. Like some liberal who they're annoyed by who worked at, I don't know, center for the American Progress once. Like if you are a leftist, I want to see a pro leftist politic from you. I do not just want to hear an anti everything else politic because that just seems like the politic of last resort. I want to go towards something, not just flee something.

[Tim Miller]

Last thing you mentioned, you're on the Blue sky and the sports and one of the things you were posting about was the Washington Post sports section and how revealing it was that a lot of MAGA types made fun of that and were like, there's nothing that's not even real. Blah, blah, blah, Washington sports sports section actually has just a really storied history and I just wanted you to kind of wax poetic about it for about a minute now that we've lost it.

[Jane Coaston]

My favorite thing about the Washington Post sports section was how closely it covered high school sports in the dmv. There are so many people like my friend and editor at The New York Times, Catherine Miller, she went to high school in the dmv. And you know, when she was, I can't remember what sport it was. I think it may have been softball. But like, she was featured in the Washington Post. They did such great coverage. Like they had multiple people covering high school sports. And if you've, you know, you live in New Orleans, you're aware that in many places, especially in the south, which D.C. weirdly enough, kind of counts, and in the Midwest, high school sports is so important to people, it's so important to community. It's so important to how people think about themselves. And so the Washington Post sending reporters to go to like a Gonzaga football game or talking about how this player was like Gatorade National Player of the Year, that would mean so much to you as a high schooler. And that's also somewhere where Kevin Durant is from the dmv. And that's somewhere where you could start to track the careers of people who would go on to change sports. And so I think it's little things like that. It's little things like there are so many people for whom the Washington Post exists only as a thing they're mad at for politics reasons. It's like they refuse to believe that D.C. contains anything but like the Capitol, the White House and people they hate. But like, D.C. is a beautiful, rich community full of so much stuff, including so many people who care so deeply about sports. You know, I know people for whom when the Nets win the World Series in 2019, they've still got that front page framed. When the Capitals won the Stanley cup, they've got that like. And the investigative reporting that went into helping to change the leadership of the now Washington commanders from the grossest set of people in the history of time who made women walk up clear stairs so everybody could look up their skirts. That's the Washington Post's legacy of sports reporting, where it was not just about highlighting the highlights, but also highlighting the lowlights of some of the wealthiest, creepiest, worst people in the world. And I'm really glad to see that there have been a lot of efforts to ensure that D.C. sports will continue to be covered. There's a couple of new sub stacks coming from people in D.C. sports, but it's tough to know that the Nationals currently will have one full time person covering them. And that's from mlb.com some limits there. Yeah, you've got so many amazing sports franchises with such storied histories and now it will be as if they don't matter. Even though when they matter to millions of people and it's just, it's really sad.

[Tim Miller]

RIP what a section. Michael Welbon, Tony Kornheiser, John Feinstein, Sally Jenkins. It's been quite a crew over there. Jane Coston, appreciate you so much. We'll be doing it again soon. All right, everybody go check out what a Day on Crooked Media. We get to let Jane go long on this podcast. What a day is tight. You know, you wake up in the morning and it's like your tight five of news.

[Jane Coaston]

You know, it's like Trump during the National Prayer Breakfast. You're just to get a tight five making fun of m of Mike Johnson. Actually, it's very similar to Trump at the National Prayer Breakfast concerning everybody else.

[Tim Miller]

We'll be back tomorrow with one of our pals. We'll see you all then. Peace. See you, Jesus. The Bulwark Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.