The Bulwark Podcast: "Joe Manchin: The Man in the Middle" (September 16, 2025)
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Former Senator Joe Manchin
Length: ~57 minutes
Episode Overview
In this insightful episode, Tim Miller sits down with former West Virginia senator and governor Joe Manchin, author of the new book Dead Center: In Defense of Common Sense. The conversation explores Manchin’s political philosophy, his time in the Senate as a centrist, the polarization of American politics, the fallout from Charlie Kirk’s assassination, gun culture and reform, West Virginia’s shifting politics, and broader questions about leadership, partisanship, and the future of American democracy. The dynamic is thoughtful and candid, with Manchin offering personal anecdotes, historical reflections, and sharp critiques of both parties.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Why Write the Book?
[01:19]
- Manchin explains the impetus for writing Dead Center, attributing it to his national prominence during the 50-50 Senate in the 117th Congress, where his centrist views became critical.
- “I was always been a centrist.…They all expect everybody—if you got a D by your name, whatever the D's want you to do; if you got an R by your name, whatever the R's want you to do. Well, the D's knew I didn't do what they wanted me to do for many, many years. So now they are really concerned.” (Joe Manchin, 01:55)
- He emphasizes the importance of personal background and values in withstanding political pressure.
2. National Tragedy & Political Violence: The Assassination of Charlie Kirk
[02:18 – 06:36]
- Manchin expresses deep sympathy to Kirk’s family, bluntly arguing that violence has no place in politics.
- “There's no place for this in the political arena.…We can defer, but to take these types of actions…How do they get that extreme and hyped up?” (Joe Manchin, 02:40)
- Discusses the role of social media in radicalization and the lack of social cohesion in Congress, partly worsened by Trump-era hyperpolarization.
- Manchin criticizes leaders—including the White House—for escalating divisive rhetoric in the wake of tragedy.
- “We need leadership…and the empathy and sympathy we have for Charlie Kirk’s family should be universal.” (Joe Manchin, 04:27)
- He laments the “better angels” not prevailing, emphasizing the need for civility, healing, and restoring the political middle.
- “The country’s divided because basically the middle doesn’t have anywhere you can go and cohese around.…There’s no middle for them. That’s what we gotta fix.” (Joe Manchin, 05:51)
3. Guns, Culture & Legislation
[06:36 – 14:16]
- Miller questions the lack of legislative response to recurring mass shootings, referencing the failed Manchin-Toomey background checks bill and recent gun violence.
- Manchin recalls Sandy Hook as a life-changing moment, deeply affecting his stance.
- “I have said…the thing that probably moved me more than anything…was the Sandy Hook with all these little children…I could never imagine…all these little children…get just slaughtered.” (Joe Manchin, 07:20)
- Describes West Virginia’s gun culture, emphasizing gun safety and responsibility, lamenting the current celebratory attitude toward guns in some communities.
- Suggests the need for stricter requirements—though not outright bans—on weapons like the AR-15, referencing historical approaches to regulating the Tommy Gun.
- On resistance in West Virginia: “There’s a backlash to everything to a certain extent.…We’re just trying to make sure that we have people with guns that can do harm, that…know exactly who they are and where they come from.” (Joe Manchin, 12:14)
4. West Virginia’s Identity Crisis & Party Realignment
[14:16 – 31:46]
- Delves into the cultural and political shifts in West Virginia, including the appearance of Confederate flags, despite the state's Union history.
- “You’re in a part of the state that really wasn’t Union.…They came unwillingly. When we broke up, they just had to be part of us.” (Joe Manchin, 16:08)
- Discusses West Virginia’s rapid move from Democratic stronghold to deep red state, attributing this to the Democratic party’s approach to coal, culture, and social issues.
- “West Virginia got slammed…Remember the war on coal?…We got left behind.” (Joe Manchin, 19:01)
- On the Democrats’ loss: “The Democratic party in Washington D.C. basically spends more…on people…that don’t work or won’t work than those who do.…You want to know why you lost the unions, you want to know why you lost all the factory workers…That’s what I hear all the time.” (Joe Manchin, 21:08)
- Affirms that for many, social issues and resentment, not economics, are now the driving factor.
- “It’s social issues.…Doesn’t matter.” (Joe Manchin, 24:09)
- Miller presses on whether there’s a path for Democrats to make inroads; Manchin notes he’s the last to win statewide as a Democrat, suggesting a viable future would require distance from national party branding.
5. The Impossible Middle: Manchin’s Lonely Role
[31:46 – 35:33]
- Miller argues the Senate’s mathematical realities mean Democrats need cross-ideological figures like Manchin to govern.
- “If the Democrats won every state that Joe Biden won in 2020, if they got both senators from all those states, they’d have 50 senators…So you got to win in other states…” (Tim Miller, 30:34)
- Manchin underscores authenticity, arguing that candidates can’t “fake” being centrist.
- “If a D or an R by your name makes you a different person than who you really are, not in West Virginia…You can’t be somebody that you’re not and make me believe it.” (Joe Manchin, 31:46)
- Frustration with the national system’s encouragement of polarizing fundraising and media incentives.
- “You can have a fundraiser every hour on the hour by just saying something crazy.…Rewarding bad behavior. The whole system is upside down.” (Joe Manchin, 32:31)
6. Working with Presidents: Obama, Trump, and Biden
[15:05, 37:00–39:24]
- Manchin details his contentious yet functional relationships with recent presidents.
- On Biden: Had a positive history, but was frustrated by the shift toward progressive priorities and using reconciliation early on.
- “You weren’t far left at all…now all of a sudden they’ve convinced you that you have to do this without any Republican participation.” (Joe Manchin, 35:52)
- Insights into Biden’s personal style: Manchin saw moments of sharpness and engagement, but also signs of tiring and lost will to fight—he attributes some of this to age and political pressures.
- “I thought he had lost a will to fight because he had to go through so much to become president…” (Joe Manchin, 37:31)
- Manchin is reticent to attack Trump directly, noting a lack of personal work with him, and focusing more critique on national Democrats.
7. Filibuster & Congress’ Institutional Decay
[39:24 – 48:31]
- Miller brings up current executive overreach under Trump (“they’re not legislating, just doing it by fiat”), prompting a discussion on the legacy and future of the filibuster.
- Manchin defends his controversial refusal to kill the filibuster: “I’m not going to do that because it’s the only chance we’ve got to at least talk to each other…” (Joe Manchin, 46:24)
- Calls for reform, including term limits, now that careerism and fear dominate congressional incentives.
- “Maybe one good term…that you would have enough courage to do the right thing.” (Joe Manchin, 43:06)
- Argues appointments should be streamlined with simple majority if passed committee bipartisan.
8. Grading Trump’s Current Administration & Policy
[48:31 – 51:28]
- Manchin is cautious in evaluating Trump’s term. He points to border policy and the issue of mass deportations, again emphasizing a need for legal immigration and pragmatic solutions.
- Critiques both Biden’s and Trump’s extreme approaches to energy; calls for a “middle of the road”—an “all-in” policy.
9. The Dilemma of Threat: Is Trump Different?
[50:32–53:21]
- Miller presses Manchin to rate presidents in terms of their threat to democratic norms. Manchin waffles, refusing to label Trump as extraordinary or uniquely dangerous, but acknowledges his “whole different approach.”
- “Donald Trump serves with a whole different approach than any of us have ever seen in modern times.…He is more of an action type person from the standpoint.” (Joe Manchin, 51:40)
- Manchin ultimately sidesteps, saying all have made mistakes, and praises certain traits in both Bill Clinton and Trump (engagement, personality).
10. Personal Anecdotes & Final Thoughts
[53:50–56:55]
- The episode ends on a lighter note, with Manchin reminiscing about his friendship with Nick Saban and their similar upbringings in small-town West Virginia.
- “One thing our dads had in common…Not good enough. Anything we did was not good enough. We could always do better.” (Joe Manchin, 56:12)
- Emphasizes the importance of responsibility and accountability as a life lesson missing from today’s politics.
Memorable Quotes & Moments
“We need leadership and every person who has elected position…when they’re speaking for themselves…not speaking of who we are as human beings…The empathy and sympathy…should be universal.” (Joe Manchin, 04:27)
“It’s social issues. Social. Doesn’t matter.” (Joe Manchin, 24:11–24:13)
“You can have a fundraiser every hour on the hour by just saying something crazy.…Rewarding bad behavior. The whole system is upside down.” (Joe Manchin, 32:31)
“You can look in your eye and shake your hand and see your soul. So that’s all we got.” (Joe Manchin, 31:46)
“Donald Trump serves with a whole different approach than any of us have ever seen in modern times.” (Joe Manchin, 51:40)
“Maybe one good term that you knew that you didn’t have to worry about getting reelected…you would have enough courage to do the right thing.” (Joe Manchin, 43:06)
Notable Timestamps
- 01:19: Manchin explains why he wrote his book
- 02:40: Reaction to Charlie Kirk’s assassination; call for empathy and leadership
- 06:36: Sandy Hook, Manchin-Toomey, and gun reform failures
- 14:16: Confederate flags and West Virginia’s identity crisis
- 21:08: Explaining Democratic losses in West Virginia
- 24:09: Rise of social issues over economics in state politics
- 32:31: The perverse incentives of modern political fundraising
- 35:52: Frustration with Biden’s strategic approach
- 37:31: Insight into Biden’s will to fight as President
- 46:24: Defense of the filibuster and critique of institutional decline
- 51:40: Manchin on Trump’s singular approach as president
- 56:12: Lessons on responsibility from childhood/relationship with Nick Saban
Tone & Takeaways
The conversation is earnest, occasionally nostalgic, and often tinged with frustration at the current state of American politics. Manchin’s tone is matter-of-fact, sometimes wistful, and consistently insistent on the need for moderation, sincerity, and a renewed sense of civic duty. He avoids partisan attacks, eager to situate himself in the pragmatic middle and reluctant to demonize even a controversial figure like Trump. Throughout, the tension between Manchin’s ideal of centrist politics and the realities of today’s partisan landscape is palpable.
For listeners seeking insight into how America's political center perceives the nation’s current challenges, as well as a candid diagnosis of polarization’s root causes from one of the Senate’s most famously independent operators, this episode offers a nuanced, occasionally provocative, and deeply personal exploration.