Joe Scarborough and Sam Stein: MAGA Doesn't Get America

Summary

The Bulwark Podcast – Joe Scarborough: MAGA Doesn't Get America

Date: July 21, 2026
Host: Sam Stein (filling in for Tim Miller)
Guest: Joe Scarborough (Co-host of Morning Joe, former Republican congressman)

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Episode Overview

In this episode, guest host Sam Stein sits down with Joe Scarborough to discuss the transformation of the Republican Party, the normalization of Trump-era extremism, the state of immigration policy and enforcement, challenges in U.S. foreign policy (especially with Iran), the evolving perception of Israel in America, and a medley of other cultural and political topics. Their candid conversation treads through history, personal anecdotes, and sharp critiques, aiming to illuminate the forces shaping current American politics.

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Key Discussion Points

1. The Evolution of the Republican Party and Roots of Trumpism

Timestamps: 02:25–07:41

• Pat Buchanan’s Early Influence:

  • Scarborough recalls attempts to dissuade Pat Buchanan from authoring a controversial book foretelling “the end of White America.”
  • Buchanan’s mix of personal kindness and reactionary, nationalist views is highlighted as an early precursor to the Trump movement.
  • Quote:

    “For them, that was America… there were so many things with Pat that I agreed with. But on immigration and on a lot of these other issues, this nationalism…” (Joe Scarborough, 03:23)

• Buchananism to Trumpism:

  • Scarborough draws a direct line from Buchanan and Perot's campaigns in the 90s to Trump’s ascendance.

• Normalization of Extremism:

  • Trump’s rhetoric (Muslim registry, coyness over KKK/David Duke) quickly became normalized among GOP voters.
  • Past actions, like the expulsion of Steve King, show how Trump shifted the party's boundaries.
  • Quote:

    “He hasn’t normalized it over 10 years. He normalized it very quickly. And there’s a huge part of the Republican Party that was perfectly fine with that, which is why the party is led us to where they are and why I am no longer a Republican.” (Joe Scarborough, 07:23)

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2. The Politics and Morality of Immigration Enforcement

Timestamps: 07:41–21:43

• Tragic Stories and Broken Systems:

  • Scarborough and Stein discuss recent stories of ICE abuses and tragic deaths, questioning public and political tolerance limits.

• Republican Dissonance:

  • Internal White House struggles over Stephen Miller’s hardline policies; awareness that “street by street” enforcement is unpopular.
  • Scarborough notes that overreach in enforcement could hurt Republicans politically.

• American Compassion and Resistance:

  • The case of a deported Maryland man, who was not a “perfect victim,” shows Americans can push back against injustice, signaling hope for change.
  • Quote:

    “There’s a majority of Americans who are saying, yeah, he may not be perfect… but Americans see the injustice in his case and they don’t want to stand for it.” (Joe Scarborough, 12:35)

• Democratic Messaging:

  • Advice: Emphasize a balance of “nation of laws” and compassion, quoting Reagan’s “melting pot” vision.
  • Reform ICE rather than advocating abolition; focus on training, body cams, accountability, and justice for victims of ICE misconduct.
  • Quote:

    “Balance it like Barack Obama balanced it. At the same time, quote Ronald Reagan back to Republicans telling them that their approach is ahistoric, it’s un-American, and it’s not even conservative.” (Joe Scarborough, 17:21)

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3. The "Online Right," Trump’s Obsessions, and Social Media Distortion

Timestamps: 14:22–15:51

• Trump and other politicians’ addiction to social media ("X", formerly Twitter) distorts decision-making and exaggerates hardline tendencies.
• Scarborough compares this to Democratic missteps, like Kamala Harris focusing on Twitter commentary over real-world voters.

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4. U.S.–Iran Relations and the Perils of Geopolitical Leverage

Timestamps: 23:49–36:23

• Midterm Pressures and Bad Deals:
  • Fox News’s public worries about the war’s political implications for Trump resemble Carter’s Iran hostage crisis.
  • Trump’s predilection for quick, dramatic solutions risks ceding leverage to adversaries; the Iranians exploit U.S. electoral calendars.
  • Quote:

    “That’s no way to run a war, and it’s certainly no way to run negotiations because you give the other side leverage.” (Joe Scarborough, 26:38)

• Munitions Shortfall and Military Unpreparedness:
  • Both stunned that, with U.S.’s outsized defense spending, we're now suffering munitions shortages during drawn-out conventional and asymmetric conflicts.
  • Quote:

    “I still was caught off guard…The fact that the United States spends more money on their national defense than the next 16 countries combined and we’re finding ourselves in this position is just shocking to me.” (Joe Scarborough, 30:15)

• Long Cold War vs. Hot Conflict:
  • Economic strangulation seen as the only viable option—military solutions or surrender have unacceptable tradeoffs.

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5. Cynicism, Corruption, and the Abandonment of Cohesive Republican Platforms

Timestamps: 59:41–65:22

• Tariffs on Canada—A Symptom of Trumpian Policylessness:

  • Trump’s tariff threats against Canada (even blaming their wildfires!) are seen as unserious “blips” that ultimately tax Americans themselves.
  • Quote:

    “But why tax Americans?...Donald Trump is taking over parts of companies right now, and they have the nerve to call Democrats socialists and communists. It’s right out of Marx’s handbook.” (Joe Scarborough, 58:57)

• No Republican Platform:

  • Scarborough claims the GOP is running on “scare tactics” alone; lacks a positive, coherent policy vision.
  • He advises Democrats to focus relentlessly on costs (healthcare, housing, groceries), tying episodic corruption back to pocketbook issues.
  • Quote:

    “Everything needs to come back to costs. Health insurance costs. I think health care remains sort of the hidden mess…at the end of the day, health care is going to keep growing as a major issue because it’s just become so unaffordable.” (Joe Scarborough, 61:15)

• The “Deep State” Ruse Has Expired:

  • Tim Dillon’s viral clip (62:22) and Thomas Massie’s remarks lampoon Republicans for blaming a “deep state” when they control all branches of power.
  • Quote:

    “You have to be one of the stupidest people in the world to fall for this shit at this point.” (Tim Dillon, quoted by Sam Stein, 63:09)
    “They are the deep state.” (Joe Scarborough, 63:12)

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6. The Generational Shift in Attitudes Toward Israel

Timestamps: 46:19–56:55

• Netanyahu’s “Maximalism” and the Youth Turn:

  • Scarborough explains his own evangelical support for Israel, but says Netanyahu’s uncompromising settlements and Gaza war policies have alienated younger Americans—even those raised with pro-Israel sentiment.
  • The cycle of “blowback” from excessive military responses has reversed generational perceptions.
  • Quote:

    “Netanyahu had this mistaken belief, a cynical belief…he needed an endless war, because without an endless war, he’s gonna be put in prison… my concern all along was that Bibi was going to turn Americans against Israel. And that’s exactly what he’s done.” (Joe Scarborough, 51:45)

• Rahm Emanuel’s Wake-Up Call to Israel:

  • Recap of the U.S. ambassador’s blunt warning to Israel: U.S. will treat it as it treats other allies, not give unlimited support.

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7. Politics, Masculinity, and the GOP's Testosterone Obsession (with Comic Relief)

Timestamps: 38:22–44:20

• Pete Hegseth and “Testosterone Culture”:
  • Scarborough lampoons Defense Secretary Hegseth’s attention-seeking, his obsession with machismo, and the performative alpha posturing prevalent in MAGA politics.
  • Quote:

    “I had the other problem. I was wondering if there were shots I could take that could lower it.” (Joe Scarborough, 44:05)

  • Extended riff on the bizarre fixation with testosterone levels among right-wing male figures.

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8. Pop Culture, Baseball, and American Identity

Timestamps: 65:22–76:57

• Cable News & Sports:

  • Scarborough expresses optimism for live TV—news and sports still drive the medium.

• The “Odyssey” Debate and What Makes America:

  • The latest culture war blown up over a Christopher Nolan movie leads to a meditation on what constitutes "American-ness."
  • Quote:

    “America is not about blood and soil. America is not about race. America is about a creed. America at its best…” (Joe Scarborough, 67:01)

  • Invokes both the "level ground at Calvary" and Reagan's vision, comparing American citizenship to spiritual salvation—available to all who embrace the creed.

• Baseball and Family:

  • The Red Sox winning streak as a metaphor for hope and endurance.
  • Emotional reflection on baseball’s role in connecting generations and American memory.
  • Quote:

    “It’s passed down from father to son or father to daughter. I remember some of my earliest memories, my dad taking me to Atlanta, Fulton County Stadium…” (Joe Scarborough, 74:49)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Trump-era Extremism:

  “Donald Trump made a terrible mistake by following X so closely. He’s obsessed with X…If I’m running somebody’s presidential campaign, like, stay off of social media.” (Joe Scarborough, 14:22)

• On Immigration & American Identity:

  “If we ever cut off and close our doors to immigrants, we will become older, we will become more exhausted, we will become poorer, we will become less free.” (Ronald Reagan, quoted by Scarborough, 17:00)

• On Military & Iran:

  “Our trillion dollar weapons systems are no match for Iran’s drones…What we’re doing right now is not working and it’s leaving our troops exposed.” (Scarborough, 31:21)

• On the Deep State:

  “You have to be one of the stupidest people in the world to fall for this shit at this point.” (Tim Dillon, 63:09)

• On Baseball’s Meaning in America:

  “It’s a part of our lives. Baseball has marked the passage of time, Ray.” (Scarborough, quoting Field of Dreams, 73:46)

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Final Thoughts & Tone

The episode blends serious political analysis with personal reflections and humor. Scarborough’s tone oscillates between exasperated and hopeful, critical and sentimental, always informed by his experiences as a former Republican and his identity as an American. The message is clear: the nation’s best traditions—openness, compassion, resilience—are challenged by the MAGA movement’s exclusionary vision, but there are still reasons to hope for renewal if Americans remember what truly unites them.

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For listeners: This conversation offers not just a recap of current events, but a lively, wide-ranging discussion of American political identity—rooted in history, challenged by the present, and open to reinvention.

Transcript

[Joe Scarborough]

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[Sam Stein]

Welcome to the board podcast. I am Sam Stein filling in for Tim while he is on vacation. Now, there are two programming reminders before we jump in, so some of this week and next week's show may actually come out later than normal. We have guest hosts like myself, different schedules than Tim's. Please be patient with us. Really appreciate that. And then this will be dark both this Friday and next Friday. So Thursday's show will be your weekend pods. Save them, dribble them out through the weekend if you want. If that's how you prefer to, you know, have your podcast. With that out of the way, I have got a great guest for you today. He is the co host of Morning Joe every morning from 6 to 9 Eastern on Ms. Now, I still have trouble saying that he's a former Republican member of Congress on if he's ever mentioned that before, he's a fellow lover of the Boston Red Sox somehow managing to win 14 in a row. As of now, he is my good friend and all around mensch. It's Joe Scarborough. Joe, how you doing, man?

[Joe Scarborough]

Sam, thank you so much for having me. I greatly appreciate it.

[Sam Stein]

Look, for 17 years now I've been wanting to host with you as the guest and I finally get my moment. And this is a real like having trouble grappling with the power I possess right here.

[Joe Scarborough]

I love it. I do have to ask you before we start though. Over your left shoulder appears to be a picture of George W. Bush. I can't read the writing. Please tell me that it says, now watch me hit this drive.

[Sam Stein]

Now watch this drive.

[Joe Scarborough]

Is that what it says?

[Sam Stein]

Yeah. A classic moment.

[Joe Scarborough]

I gotta get those for my kids because my youngest son Jack just learned how to hit and every time he hits, he gets up there he talking and he gets up there he goes, now watch me hit this ball.

[Sam Stein]

Oh my God.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah.

[Sam Stein]

No, it's a running joke among the friends and then we usually shank it. So that's the problem, of course. So look, it's funny. I was thinking about this show with you and my mind drifted back actually to the early Morning Joe days when you. I don't know if people remember this but you used to do, if I'm remembering correctly, used to do a radio program like the hour after.

[Joe Scarborough]

Oh, yeah.

[Sam Stein]

So you would do the six to nine and then you get off and you do a radio program. And I remember those days. I remember you come up to the D.C. bureau a lot and you would just kind of scuttle off the set and do the radio program. And back in those days, in the D.C. bureau, back when it was in the Nebraska Avenue studios, one of the guests was always Pat Buchanan. And Pat, I think you and I both have like this affinity for Pat. He was an exceptionally nice guy, obviously some controversial views. But I remember this conversation we had right before radio program once, and I'm going to set this up, you were trying to talk him out of doing a book. Do you remember this?

[Joe Scarborough]

Right?

[Sam Stein]

You remember that?

[Joe Scarborough]

I do remember it. I tried to talk him out of doing a book that basically, I think it was called the End of Whitey's World or something like that. His brother in law offered to pay him a lot of money not to put the book out. His publisher tried to get him not to put the book out. And he put the book out. And then, I mean, shock of all shocks, there was great blowback on it. And for people that know Pat and that worked with Pat, and this goes all the way back into the 1970s, 1980s, they will tell you that Pat was an extraordinarily nice man. He was kind to everybody. But he, like Donald Trump, like many other people in this Trump movement, they were kind of stuck in 1954. For them, that was America. And there were so many things with Pat that I agreed with. But on immigration and on a lot of these other issues, this nationalism and this, you know, I think he too, like a certain historian that was on Tucker's show, may have tried to blame Churchill for World War II. So there is a connection between Buchananism and Trumpism. And I would say that as people kind of grapple with where Donald Trump came from, I think you look at Pat Buchanan's campaigns in 92 and 96, along with Ross Perot's campaigns in 92 and 96, and that really has brought us to where we are today, along with my former party, the Republican Party and some of its worst instincts.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, the reason I was bringing up Pat is because. So the chapter was called the End of Void America. He did get let go from MSNBC at the time after the book came out. And I'm thinking about this now, and it's like some of the stuff Pat wrote about in that book, in that chapter specifically. It's like you would get that from an everyday Stephen Miller tweet. That's now become sort of the accepted doctrine of the Republican Party, especially on immigration. And I guess, I don't know, how do we get here? How did your ex party get here?

[Joe Scarborough]

Well, I got here by Donald Trump making it acceptable. You know, it's so incredible when you look at what people get away with saying in Congress every single day. Now, I remember Steve King out of Iowa said something that was. I don't even remember exactly what it was, but it was nowhere as shocking as a lot of things that we're hearing said today. And I remember the party just decided we're going to kick King off the committees, we're not going to fund him, and we are going to drive him from Congress. And so they did successfully drive Steve King from Congress because that wasn't the idea of what they wanted the Republican Party to be. Donald Trump came along and, you know, In December of 2015, he started talking about a Muslim registry. And I remember saying in early December when he said that, I said, this is what Germany looked like in 1933, 1934. This is a real problem. And I'm sure Republicans will reject this. Well, now, after he talked about a Muslim registry, his numbers went up. Before the Super Tuesday primary in 2016, he denied knowing who David Duke was, despite the fact in 2000 he said he would not ever join the Reform Party because David Duke was in it and was a racist. He even sort of knocked around, feigned ignorance about the Ku Klux Klan, didn't want to say anything negative about the Ku Klux Klan. Again, something deeply disqualifying, something that we said at the time was deeply disqualifying. Wrote about in the Washington Post, said it was deeply disqualifying. But after he said it, his numbers just went up with his core supporters in the Republican Party. So he hasn't normalized it over 10 years. He normalized it very quickly. And there's a huge part of the Republican Party that was perfectly fine with that, which is why the party is led us to where they are and why I am no longer a Republican.

[Sam Stein]

I guess I grapple with what is the extent, to the extent to where the party will go with this because some of the headlines, I mean, obviously headlines all the time are really troubling. But you know, we've had a couple deaths, tragic deaths in the past week in Maine and in Texas. The stories about the ICE agent in Maine, in Particular have really kind of shaken me in a way. This guy who his ex wife said he choked and slammed their 13 year old, choked and slammed her, threw the 13 year old daughter through a coffee table. Another wife has said that she had to get a protective order against him. I mean, these are the people that they're putting on the street. And I have to have to imagine that at a certain point the voter tolerance for this stuff is just exhausted. And I would like to think that a certain point elected Republican appetite for this type of politics kind of exhausts itself. And yet you see Mark, when Mullen, you know, back off his position that he's going to, you know, stop these vehicle stops, and then you see reports from the Times that they're not going to have the FBI investigate any of this conduct. So what is like the end principle of this? Where do I struggle with that? Like, are we just going to be in this kind of militant state as long as Trump's in office?

[Joe Scarborough]

Well, you struggle with it because the Republican Party struggles with it because the White House struggles with it. Most of the people inside the White House who thought for a very long time that Stephen Miller's absolutist position on this doesn't make sense, really. Yeah, he set up quotas, he set up numbers because the last thing he wanted to see and the last thing Trump wanted to see were headlines that said Joe Biden deported more illegal immigrants than Donald Trump. But as we've tried to explain time and time again on the show, Joe Biden's always going to have higher numbers of deportations because he let so many people in and they were just at the border. And so it was very easy to deport a thousand or two thousand or three thousand people a day when you were letting, I don't know, 1,000, 2,000, 3,000 people in. So their numbers, especially when they got serious about closing the border into 23, 24, I think it was the numbers are always going to be higher. And what Stephen Miller has found out, but he's not going to stop. And what Donald Trump should have figured out, and I thought he did figure out, was the political costs of going street by street, neighborhood by neighborhood, community by community, was going to be too high for the Republican Party. Donald Trump's numbers collapsed on immigration. That should be his strongest number. Now, if you say to the American vote, I always look at my parents who were Republicans, but we're not afraid to vote for Democrats. I would say, well, what do my parents say about the current situation? That we're in. And I know this, that in 21, 22, 23, they would have been angry and would have said, what the hell is going on at the southern border? Why are we letting everybody in? Why? It's chaos down there. We have borders. We are a nation of laws. Why is Joe Biden allowing that to happen? I have no doubt that if my parents were alive and watching news over the past year or so, they would be horrified, horrified not just as Christians, but horrified as Americans to see how so many people were being treated, how immigrants were being treated, how people were coming here to seek refugee status were being treated, how Americans that were exercising the First Amendment right were. I mean, getting gunned down in the streets of America, execution style doesn't work. Now, the one thing I have said, when you ask the question, how long will Americans take it? I will say I'm more optimistic than Mika is, which is good, because sometimes I'm overly optimistic, sometimes she's overly pessimistic. But the one thing I have gotten her to agree on is the fact that Kumar Abrego Garcia was not the perfect victim to hold out. Right. He was not the perfect representative for what, you know, his wife accused him of beating her. One judge said that he. He was in a gang. There were questions about his background that, again, weren't sterling. What? Make a sterling profile of the kind of person that you would want to hold up in pushing back against immigration. There are a lot more candidates who are easier to defend. And yet. And yet Americans stood up and pushed back hard for this Maryland man, as he was called, and they wanted this Maryland man to be able to return to the United States. And I said to Mika, I said, listen, there's a majority of Americans who are saying, yeah, he may not be perfect. He may fall in short in a lot of different ways, but Americans see the injustice in his case and they don't want to stand for it. That is a positive sign. I will say, though, the fact that the Trump administration has gone back to doing the things they've been doing in the streets of America is tragic. It's also politically shortsighted. It will cost Republicans. It will cost Susan Collins. It will cost Ken Paxton in Texas.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, I would like to believe that. And. But at the same time, and I agree with you about Garcia, it was the principle that he was deported to the wrong country, and people stood up for that. And I thought that was refreshing. Obviously, you don't pick the causes or the people that you want to have associated with the cause. You just go with the principle, I don't think this is a disagreement. I found the reaction. So when Mark Wynn Mullen last week said he's going to stop these vehicle stops, which has been the cause of these horrible deaths in Maine and Texas, I found the backlash on the right to be probably the more disturbing part, which was every single MAGA account on the Internet basically was like, you wuss. How could you betray us, Mark Winmill, and you should be impeached for doing this. There was an intense political pressure placed on him to reverse that policy reversal, and he did it. And maybe this, again, I don't think this is a disagreement, but there is this acute pressure on Trump to just go full throttle on this stuff. And so that probably will end up hurting them in the long run for sure.

[Joe Scarborough]

That's from the extreme online right there. I've always thought that Donald Trump made a terrible mistake by following X so closely. He's obsessed with X. He's obsessed with what people say about him. Cash Patel got selected to the FBI. I think they were moving away from him, but the campaign for Cash on X was so strong, they knew they couldn't back off of it. So if you're Donald Trump and you're controlling this movement, I mean, why are you worrying about X? It's kind of like what I said about Kamala Harris in the 2020 campaign. She. She was so obsessed on what people were saying about her on Twitter that I think it twisted and distorted what kind of campaign she read. I mean, if I'm running somebody's presidential campaign, like, stay off of social media.

[Sam Stein]

You think Trump at this point could read polls, though, right? Like, I guess he's addicted to the screen. But you would think you could read polls. And the polling data has moved away on that. On the issue. On the flip side of this, like, you know, the Democrats, you mentioned Harris, what would you suggest they do in terms of an immigration platform here? Right, because obviously they had this whole debate about abolish ICE and whether that was toxic. I have colleagues here. I got Bill Kristol of all people, who's like, abolish ice. Get rid of ice. Like, it does seem like there's an appetite for it, but at the same time, we just went through this experiment right, where it didn't work. So what would you advise them to do?

[Joe Scarborough]

I think the best thing to do is say, we are a nation of laws, first of all. And so if we have laws about who can come in the United States and who can't come into the United States, we should enforce those laws. And we do that with the border Patrol. The border patrol on the border.

[Sam Stein]

Right.

[Joe Scarborough]

Not in Dallas, not in Maine, not in Minneapolis. So that's the first thing you do. So we are a nation of laws, but we're also a compassionate nation as well. And it's just balancing act. It's amazing Barack Obama was able to do that. I know he got a lot of pushback from Hispanic groups because they called him the deporter in chief, but he at least had a more compassionate approach that allowed immigrants to come in, that allowed people to pursue their green cards, that recognized refugee status. So I would look to help. Barack Obama did it. He was very compassionate. I would also say to Democrats, do what I do. Quote Ronald Reagan to Republicans and quote Ronald Reagan's final speech to America, his farewell speech to America, where he said, you can go to France, but you can never be a Frenchman. You can go to Turkey or Germany, never be a Turk or a German, but you come to the United States of America, lift your right hand and take that oath, and you become an American. And Reagan says, this is the one thing that separates us from every other country in the world. We are the melting pot. And as Reagan said. And again, Democrats should quote Reagan back to Republicans that they're running against. Reagan said, if we ever cut off and close our doors to immigrants, we will become older, we will become more exhausted, we will become poorer, we will become less free. That's what I would say to Democrats. Balance it like Barack Obama balanced it. At the same time, quote Ronald Reagan back to Republicans telling them that their approach is ahistoric, it's un American, and it's not even conservative.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, I've read the Reagan speech. It's really good. Honestly, it's really good. I think it's notable that it was his last speech because this is what he chose to focus on. I want to get to Ron a second, but I do want to Just one last question, because I stumble on the ICE component of this. Like, I read you that piece. You have these people who have been not vetted at all. Basically, yeah. Hired with a $50,000 signing bonus. Some of them no college degrees, barely, you know, through law enforcement training at all. And they're now in this agency that's got tens, hundreds of millions, billions of dollars. Sorry.

[Joe Scarborough]

Right.

[Sam Stein]

And they've been weaponized against the American people. Next Democrat takes office, they gotta do something with ice. They can't just leave it as is. So what do you do with ice?

[Joe Scarborough]

Well, I mean, you know, the thing is just going into the campaign, though. You don't want to give Republicans an opening. You want to keep it on costs, costs and costs. Affordability of healthcare, the affordability of gas prices, the affordability of groceries, the affordability of rent, the affordability of mortgages. That's what Democrats stick on. And if they stay on that, they will win. I would not get into abolish ice. I would not get into defund the police. But what I would do is say this ICE has to be reformed. There have to be body cameras. We have to have a rigorous training regiment that's every bit as rigorous as what the NYPD or the LAPD or any other major police department does. Because you look at the way these clowns encircle somebody and push them to the ground. It's so unprofessional, and it leads to tragedy. One other thing, too, though. There has to be accountability for ICE agents that shoot, injure, kill Americans, immigrants, illegal immigrants, people seeking asylum. There has to be justice. Because when there is justice, then there will be more accountability. And that'll put up the guardrails that need to be put up right now. But the fact that somebody can shoot Alex Preddy execution style and then be whisked away from the scene, somebody can shoot Renee Goode and then be whisked

[Sam Stein]

away, we still don't know that guy's identity. Right. We have never found it out.

[Joe Scarborough]

Right. The fact that they're still having a hard time conducting investigations up in Minneapolis, those people should be investigated. They deserve due process, the sort of due process that Alex Preddy and Renee Good did not get. But then if they're indicted, they need to go to trial, and if they're found guilty of manslaughter or murder, they need to go to jail. I think that's the best thing we can do to change the way ICE is being run right now. And I think this goes all the way up to officials. I think Kristi Noem. I think Kristi Noem needs to be investigated the way she ran ice, what she was encouraging them to do. Because just getting somebody in the field that pulled the trigger when what he was doing was really in pursuit of what Kristi Noem was trying to do. I think there needs to be accountability up and down the line. If there's accountability up and down the line, that'll mean everybody from. From Mark Wayne Mullen or who else, whoever is running DHS all the way down to the ICE officer in the streets, they will all understand that actions have consequences.

[Sam Stein]

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[Joe Scarborough]

And with the midterm elections a little more than 100 days away, the clock is ticking for President Trump to get out of this war before voters head to the polls. It's making a lot of Republicans nervous. It's already, as we know, unpopular. According to the new Washington Post Ipsos poll, 69% of Americans disapprove of the handling of this conflict. Republicans cannot let this become an endless distraction, especially if they want to Win in November.

[Sam Stein]

I see no lies. It's a bit cynical, but I see no lies there.

[Joe Scarborough]

I wish Fox News had been a bit more aggressive at the early stages of the war when we were talking about what a mistake this was, what a catastrophic decision this was. But my problem is that when you give the Iranians leverage, leverage, they're going to exploit that leverage and they're going to humiliate you and destroy you. Jimmy Carter had an election that he had to worry about in 1980, coming up with Ronald Reagan in 1980. And Chris Matthews comes on the show all the time and he says, the Iranians just humiliated Carter, humiliated all of us. They knew he was desperate for a deal because he had an election coming up with Ronald Reagan. It's the same thing now with Donald Trump. The Iranians know that there are midterm elections that Donald Trump is worried about, so they're going to use that as their leverage. And so what happens? Do we sign an mou, and then do we end up with a deal that gives the Iranians half a trillion dollars like the last mou? I mean, the Iranians proved he can't even bribe them with a half a trillion dollar deal because the, the instinct to humiliate American presidents is so great, they can't even take yes for an answer. So I think right now, Donald Trump's in a very difficult position because bribing them out of the war, even in a way that would have really undercut American interests in the region and undercut our allies in the region, that didn't work. So now he's going back to bombing them. I do know this, though. If you're looking for the long term, there's not going to be a military solution to this, but there will be an economic solution to this. But that economic solution and weakening the Iranian economy even further, and it's in shambles right now that doesn't have a neat timeline. You can't get that done by early November. Maybe it'll happen the Soviet Union fell overnight, maybe this Iranian republic will fall overnight. But chances are good if you're looking at what Laura's looking at, and I understand why Republicans are worried about this, but geopolitically, that's no way to run a war, and it's certainly no way to run negotiations because you give the other side leverage. And the Iranians are extraordinarily effective in negotiating against desperate American presidents.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, you're missing the biggest card that Trump can play here that just cancel the midterm elections, get rid of the leverage. Right.

[Joe Scarborough]

You're going to make me very nervous. She talks about that every day. She talks about that every day. And I have to tell her that's not going to happen.

[Sam Stein]

That's not going to happen. It's not going to happen. The economic leverage point I think is valid. And yet, I mean, obviously it gets to your point, which is they don't really. The mullahs don't really have to be all that concerned about it. Right. They don't have elections to worry about. Whereas Trump kind of blurted out during the last MoU when he was defending it, he was like, we were four weeks away from a global energy catastrophe. Right. Like, he said that out loud. This is why I had to do the mou, because you don't know what it was like if in four weeks now there's a report this morning that we are 43 days away from our strategic reserve being depleted. Okay. So in terms of economic leverage, I'm not totally. You're probably right. But, like, what is our advantage? They're all that pronounced, right? I can't tell.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah. It may have to be a cold war. It may have to be a cold

[Sam Stein]

war, like a tit for tat bombing every night. We just kind of like we're in the stasis.

[Joe Scarborough]

They could do that if they wanted to. The question, I don't know that we have the munitions to do that. But as Richard Haass had said on our show before, you do a blockade and nothing gets in, nothing gets out, it's the Iranians who are going to suffer the most from that. And we're going to have to figure out. And right now, the UAE and other countries are trying to figure out the most effective way to make the strait less. Less central to the oil trade globally.

[Sam Stein]

There's other reports that from. From an intelligence gathering standpoint and from military standpoint. I'll just read the Post story. Iran's government is unlikely to feel significant impact or soften its negotiating position as a result of new rounds of US Military strikes like those underway, according to new intelligence assessment described by current and former U.S. officials. Analysts at American spy agencies have also concluded that Tehran and Washington are for now stuck in an indefinite limbo between peace and war, the official said, an uneasy dynamic given the increasingly deadly nature of the tit for tat hostilities between the two nations. Then there's another report again from the Post, says the US Is planning for a wider war. That's according to a US Official familiar with internal administration discussions. This quote really stuck with me this is the same official. We do not have enough to safely sustain operations. And I don't think the White House is aware of that. They're talking about Interceptors and the like. I'm shocked at how off guard we are militarily. I think the strikes in Jordan that happened over the weekend that tragically resulted in the deaths of two service members, maybe three, really, are pretending something particularly dark here.

[Joe Scarborough]

I think what I'm shocked by, even though, you know, I don't know if I ever told you, but I was once a Republican in the United States, United States Congress. I was. No, I don't. I don't like to talk about it. I don't like to talk about it. No.

[Sam Stein]

This is blowing my mind.

[Joe Scarborough]

Okay, don't tell anybody. Let's not focus on this too long. Because they don't like people to say, oh my God, was he really? But I was on the Armed Services Committee for, for four terms. And even with that background, even with the background of all the people I knew and met and I've continued to talk to over the past two and a half decades, I still was caught off guard and shocked by the fact that we're running short on munitions. The fact that the United States spends more money on their national defense than the next 16 countries combined and we're finding ourselves in this position is just shocking to me. I have no idea how we planned so poorly that supplying the Ukrainians. We heard, oh, possible munition shortfalls, really, supplying an ally to fire missiles at Russia. And now I'm hearing after three or four weeks of war with Iran, the same thing happening. How could the United States find itself in this position? That's simply outrageous. We have all of these advanced weapons systems that we continue to pour billions and billions and billions of dollars into, but we're obviously not equipped to fight a 21st century war. I mean, you look at what's happening with Ukraine and Russia right now, Russia can't fight a 21st century war. You look at what's happening with the United States against Iran. Our trillion dollar weapons systems are no match for Iran's drones. And so we've got to figure out a way to be leaner, to be meaner, maybe have less of a defense budget, but one that focuses more on asymmetric warfare. Because what we're doing right now is not working and it's leaving our troops exposed.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, and you just look at the nightly coverage of this trade of Hormuz. Right? I mean, over the night, the couple oil tankers were hit by drones. The Jordanian base. I was talking to Mark Herling about this. That was a drone. It was not a missile that was launched. It was a drone. And I guess in this modern warfare, that is just what you have to deal with. So I want to just push on what you're talking about, because this morning you were saying on the show, you can't just leave Iran emboldened by this. Right, right. And I think the military investment for some sort of military victory is, I'm not sure, something that Trump would stomach or that the voters were stomach. So what is the actual way out?

[Joe Scarborough]

Well, the only way out is you've got to squeeze them economically. I say that's the only way out because surrendering. Surrendering the MoU.

[Sam Stein]

So the MoU, though, I thought at the time when they did the mou, I thought it was a shitty deal that was worse than the jcpoa, which was Obama negotiated. And yet I was also like, this is. We have to do something like this because this can't be sustained. And that was even violated pretty quickly. Right. So what is the alternative? Go ahead. Sorry, I see the floor here.

[Joe Scarborough]

No, first of all, the MOU was just a disaster. And it was a disaster again, because it would have given a terror regime that's been the epicenter of terrorism since 1979 half a trillion dollars. It would put them in a better economic situation than they've been in since 1979, when, in fact, right now, they are in the worst economic situation they have been in since 1979. So militarily, going tit for tat doesn't work with them, just doesn't. Because, again, we're wasting munitions that we don't really have, and they're still able to kill American troops with drones with asymmetric warfare. So it seems to me a Cold war and a war that focuses on squeezing them as tightly as we can economically may be the only solution. And that may be the only solution, even though, again, it won't help Republicans in the short term, but it'll help America in the long run. And again, what's the timeline? I don't know what the timeline is, but I certainly know that surrendering and making the Iranians the most powerful regime in that region, giving them control, de facto control over the Straits, giving them the ability to build nuclear weapons, giving them the ability to rebuild their stockpiles to fire at our allies in the region, that's going to turn a lot of allies against the United States, and it's going to end up killing a Lot of Americans.

[Sam Stein]

So it looks something like this. You put on a really heavy embargo, sort of like what you did prior to the mou. In the meantime, you kind of scramble to look for alternatives to the Strait of Hormuz. You ramp up production. That's going to take a while to get online, but you try to open up whatever spigots are out there. Then you put on just absolutely aggressive sanctions as much as you can, secondary tertiary sanctions, and you look for any other economic leverage you have on Iran. And then you sit back and you wait for them to cry uncle and you say, we're not going to move until you basically give us some sort of legitimate diplomatic off ramp here and not this bogus $500 billion sanctions relief. You know, we'll talk in 60 days. Mou.

[Joe Scarborough]

Right. And it's probably the most unsatisfactory way forward for somebody like Donald Trump who demands immediacy, who gets bored very easily, who doesn't, doesn't want to sit back and wait. It's like, you know, it's like Homer Simpson and the Simpsons. He's trying to figure out what to do. He said, well, now let's play the waiting game. And after two seconds he goes, the waiting game sucks. Let's play Hungry Hungry Hippos. That's sort of how Donald Trump, Donald Trump feels. He told us he was bored with a war like months ago, but again, just going through it strategically, surrendering to them and giving them an mou that makes them the most powerful, well, terror regime on the planet, but also the most powerful regime in that region is not a possibility. And continuing this hot war with them doesn't seem to be very good possibility. So I think what you said is all we can do. And there's no timeframe on it. We didn't know the Soviet Union was gonna collapse when they collapsed, but they did and they did. Mainly for economic reasons.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, I just can't see Pete Hegseth and Donald Trump getting behind that type of approach, but it does make sense. So you've probably heard us talk about one skin before for their best selling skincare. I know Tim is obsessed with it. He uses it all the time. That's Tim. But now they're bringing the same breakthrough longevity science to their scalp serum OS1 hair. As guys, this is something that we unfortunately have to think about. You know, I'm wearing this hat for a reason. I'm trying to do whatever I can to have the healthiest hair as long as I can, whether it's stress hormonal shifts or just getting older, hair changes can happen to everyone. And that's exactly why One Skin built OS1 Hair. It's a daily serum powered by the radio proprietary OS1 peptide that actually works on the scalp, where hair health begins to nourish it from the root so your hair looks and feels better over time. They've done clinical studies on this serum to validate the science and the results are pretty incredible. Six months in, people show a 43% increase in hair thickness and a 40% increase in hair density, in addition to seeing less visible hair shedding. And just three months in, 75% of customers saw visible new hair growth. Most of the hair treatment options out there that deliver these types of results, they can leave your scalp kind of irritated and greasy. Others require a prescription, making them hard to access. And even if they work, they can have some pretty unpleasant side effects. Os1 Hair is different. It's drug free, so you can use it alone or alongside any other hair treatment without irritation. And it's water based, so you can actually use it every day without disrupting your normal routine. Born from over 10 years of longevity research, OneSkin's OS1 peptide is engineered to support your hair to look visibly fuller and thicker at any age. For a limited time, try OneSkin with 15% off using code bulwark at OneSkin co. Bulwark, that's 15% off. OneSkin co with code Bulwark. Now, after your purchase, they'll ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them that we sent you.

[Joe Scarborough]

You.

[Sam Stein]

What are your thoughts on Pete? Big fan.

[Joe Scarborough]

I mean, he's just such an embarrassment. Well, no, he's a child. He acts like a child. He was not qualified to be Secretary of Defense. He's the least qualified Secretary of Defense in the history of this republic. You look at all of the things that came up during the vetting. I mean, he even lied to the Trump transition team. They hated him inside of there because they caught him lying time and again. Then all of these things came out. Joni Ernst should have voted no. There's no way he should have gotten through the committee. Word is that she was threatened and her family was threatened and, you know, the whole whole MAGA base turned against her and so she backed down and now she's quit, not going to run for reelection. But he's terrible. And what makes him? Well, there's so many things that make him terrible. First of all, the fact that he simply finds the idea of promoting women or people of color in Fact. He sees that as a. The fact that he clearly, clearly has racial animus towards people in uniform that are not white. The fact that he took down Chappie James. Picture Chappie James, the black airmen who flew more combat missions than anybody else in the history of America's armed forces. Not more than any black pilot. Not more than any person of color who happened to be a fighter pilot, but more combat missions than anybody else. And Pete Hegseth decides he wants his picture taken down, decides that he's going to block the promotion of women, gonna block the promotion of people of color. It's just disgraceful. And again, this is a guy that's living in 1954. It's terrible. It's terrible for the armed forces. I think also, every time he opens his mouth, I think he makes Donald Trump look weaker. He makes the Pentagon look weaker.

[Sam Stein]

Expand on that. Why?

[Joe Scarborough]

Well, because he's so childish. He gets up there and he puffs out his chest, and he plays sort of some reality TV show warrior.

[Sam Stein]

He's a cartoon character.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah. And the Iranians just look at that. The Russians look at that. The Chinese look at that. And they're like, what a joke. He's a child. And so that. That makes Donald Trump look weaker.

[Sam Stein]

Did you watch a video about him doing the testosterone testing for the troops?

[Joe Scarborough]

Oh, my God. Yeah. Yeah. I also saw what

[Sam Stein]

levels, checked, what

[Joe Scarborough]

General Herdling said about it. Can I ask you this, Sam? Can I ask you this like you're a young man? No.

[Sam Stein]

You've been saying that for 17 years.

[Joe Scarborough]

Why is it. Why do these guys obsess so much on testosterone levels? I don't know. And this even went back to people selling devices and saying, you need to put sun in private regions. So your testosterone. This is just not. It's like James Talarico said. Ken Paxton accused me of being a low T. I had to look it up because nobody my age worries about being a low ticket. But there is a constant obsession about testosterone. RFK Jr says Donald Trump has the highest levels of testosterone I've ever seen in my life for a man his age. And it's like the overcompensation. It's like back in the 90s when all these guys were buying Hummers to drive around, and you sit there and you're like, okay, I see what that guy's overcompensating.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, it's a version of that, Joe. It's just instead of buying expensive, expensive car, you get your T. Injections or whatever the hell I. I know. I I. I did not grow up this way. Honestly, nobody.

[Joe Scarborough]

I swear to God, nobody. Never talked to anybody, Never talked to anybody about their testosterone.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, I wasn't in the dorm room with, like, checking on my. Yeah, hey, what's your T level, buddy?

[Joe Scarborough]

Just don't talk about that. And by the way, if. If there or are teenagers and 20 year olds in the military, even 30 year olds that are worried about lower testosterone levels. Dude, go to a doctor. Something is seriously wrong with you.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah. At that age, you shouldn't have to worry about this.

[Joe Scarborough]

I gotta say, that wasn't my problem at that age. I had the other problem. I was wondering if there were shots I could take that could lower it. I mean, it's crazy, crazy that these guys are so obsessed with their testosterone levels. Again, overcompensating.

[Sam Stein]

But they're all sort of like, hegseth is what, like 43, 44, 45, something like that? RFK is older, but, like, they're kind of on the down slopes and they're holding on for dear life. And rfk, obviously, you know, is injecting his. His body mass is a little bit off, I'm gonna be honest with you. And he. Yeah, he does weird. And, you know, I think these guys just sort of are holding on and struggling with the aging process, and so they are overcompensating and projecting.

[Joe Scarborough]

Let me tell you. I would, I would. I will tell you again. In my mid-40s, you said, Pete Hex is like 45. In my mid-40s,.

[Sam Stein]

You had no problem.

[Joe Scarborough]

That was not my problem. That is not my problem. I mean, and I just got to wonder, like, again, what's wrong with these people physically, that they're. They're starting to obsess over this. In their 20s, 30s, and 40s.

[Sam Stein]

Hexith is 45, 6 to be precise. But yeah, this is. It's on behavior. And I just think shooting the video, it's like, one thing to, like, have the policy, which, whatever. I find that weird to then proactively go out and be like, you know what? I'm going to shoot this kind of Cialis, like, commercial video to announce this.

[Joe Scarborough]

Why?

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, don't. No need. Just announce the policy. I could just announce the policy. It's like. But like, Kash Patel yesterday, I don't know if you saw the Cash Patel World cup video. I'm sure you did. Did you see it? No.

[Joe Scarborough]

No. What did you do?

[Sam Stein]

With the crowning of the FIFA 2026 World cup champion, the FBI blows the final whistle on the largest special security event ever held in the United States.

[Joe Scarborough]

I'm proud to say it ended without

[Sam Stein]

any major security issues. And that wasn't by accident. It's thanks to unprecedented planning and the tireless efforts of the men and women of the FBI, as well as our federal, state, local, and international partners. It's like, you don't need to hype yourself up. You don't need to take a victory lap for doing your job. Just like, say, you know, put out a press release or don't even say anything at all. Just. You don't need to.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah. And Hexith always puts out those videos. She's like, oh, we are mighty, and we are. Dude, stop playing Secretary of Defense. You are Secretary of Defense. Yeah, don't have to do that.

[Sam Stein]

You got the job. You. You don't have to do it anymore.

[Joe Scarborough]

You met.

[Sam Stein]

You. You've gotten to the peak. You're fine. Right?

[Joe Scarborough]

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[Sam Stein]

All right, we got a couple more I want to get through before I have to let you go. Bibby and Netanyahu. This is a month old, but I've been meaning to talk to you about this. So after the New York primaries, when there were a couple DSA candidates that won and people were freaking out, and I think you properly put it in context, like, okay, this is a New York thing. You look across the country, there's not like a DSA revolution happening here. But you had, you had these comments about Bibi, and I thought they were really profound and thought provoking in a way, because everyone started debating, why is this the kind of anti Israel sentiment that's taking grip of not just the Democratic Party, but the Republican Party, too? And you said, if you want to blame anybody for what happened last night, this is the primaries that you're talking about. I think you have to blame Benjamin Netanyahu. And you went on to talk about how there's four years of maximalist aims that people should not be, quote, shocked that Israel is in such low standing in America right now. I want you to expand on that for a little bit because I. I thought that was underappreciated that comment because not. You don't normally get that on tv.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah. You know, just to give. Just to give you my background, as you know. But other people watching may not know I'm a Southern Baptist, and we support Israel. Evangelicals have always supported Israel and the existence of Israel. And we've done it for religious purposes. I mean, I don't speak for all Baptists. I don't speak for all evangelicals. I'm just saying we grew up believing that Jews were God's chosen people and that we celebrated Israel's existence in 1948. And it was sort of a matter of faith that we supported Israel and Israel's right to exist. And also on top of that, because I am such an old dude, one of my first memories was the 72 Munich Olympics. Yeah. And so watching these terrorists, these masked terrorists break in and kill Israeli athletes and growing up hearing about one PLO bombing after another PLO bombing, one PLO hijacking after another, it was pretty easy. Like, growing up, when I grew up, just seeing Israel as the good guys and seeing PLO as terrorists. And, you know, you take the 1967 war and, you know, you've got all the Arab countries attacking Israel. 73, all the Arab countries attacking Israel, it was pretty obvious, well, why we kind of need to support Israel. They're. They are the one democracy in the region, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And so that was my frame of reference. And what I said that morning was, that was my frame of reference growing up. Now imagine that you're of this generation. Now imagine that you are under 25 or under 30. Your views of Israel and the Palestinians has been shaped by Benjamin Netanyahu's maximalist policies, certainly shaped by what's happened in Gaza. The bombing in Gaza, the famine in Gaza, the hellatious conditions in Gaza, the debate over whether genocide was happening in Gaza or not. And that is a debate that's going on especially in the Democratic Party right now, because what happened there was so heinous. And then you look at what's happening with the west bank settlers. One illegal settlement after another illegal settlement. And one of the things I've been bringing up to try to sort of shake people from my own tribe, or at least my former tribe is talking about. It's not just happening to Muslims. It's not just happening to the others. It's happening to Christians in Bethlehem. It's happening to Christians across the West Bank. They are being terrorized by these radical settlers on the West Bank. Their fields are being destroyed by radical settlers on the West Bank. Their children are being terrorized by these radicals on the West Bank. So with that as your backdrop, it's pretty easy to figure out why voters who are under 35 have looked at these maximalist names, even after the horrors of October 7th, and said, okay, wait a second, this doesn't make sense. The United States can't keep giving Israel $3 billion a year to bomb civilians, whether it's in Gaza or whether it's in southern Lebanon, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And my point has always been that Netanyahu had this mistaken belief, a cynical belief, actually. I think he needed an endless war, because without an endless war, he's gonna be put in prison. And that's something the New York Times wrote about months ago, but he needed that endless war. And so he has continued the war. And after Gaza, it's southern Lebanon, and it was pulling Donald Trump into. Into Iran. And so those numbers have shifted dramatically because those maximalist things of Netanyahu are not only radical, but they're also ahistoric. And let me explain how it's ahistoric. Anybody that studied the Middle east or anybody that's just seen the events of the Middle east that I've seen across my lifetime, understands there's always blowback. There's always blowback. So you do what you do in Gaza, there's going to be blowback for a generation. You do what you do in southern Lebanon, there's going to be blowback from generation. And if you don't read the New York Times or watch Morning Joe, for God's sake, just watch a season of Homeland, there's always blowback, and there's going to be massive blowback. And my concern, as somebody who at his core has always been a supporter of Israel, my concern all along was that Bibi was going to turn Americans against Israel. And that's exactly what he's done.

[Sam Stein]

Oh, yeah, yeah, 100%. Did you watch Rahm's speech in Israel by any chance?

[Joe Scarborough]

I did. I did. And he had a lot of great ideas there. I will say, also for people that come to him and go, well, we were attacked on October 7th. Yeah, you were attacked on October 7th, and you had the whole world on your side, just like we had the world on our side after 9, 11. But. But here's the thing that for Netanyahu defenders, here's the thing I still don't understand. Benjamin Netanyahu was asked by Qatar three weeks before the attacks, do you want us to continue funding Hamas? And he said yes, because Benjamin Netanyahu had continued to fund this terror organization that he said was focused only on killing Jews. And they existed in large part and had the resources for October 7th in large part because of all the money Benjamin Netanyahu pushed Qatar to give. And then it takes him 10, 11, 12 hours to respond to people who are being butchered all across Israel. I still don't understand it. It just. It is the worst leadership I've seen, and I pray to God for the sake of. Of Israel that he's voted out.

[Sam Stein]

For people who didn't see Rahm's speech, Rahm basically outlined what you said in more or less saying, you know, this is two Israelis saying, you need to wake up your leader, your prime minister, has made you a global pariah by what he's done. And for Rahm to do that people should understand is pretty big deal. Rahm's obviously an observant Jew and he big proponent of US Israeli ties.

[Joe Scarborough]

And also, Sam, his father.

[Sam Stein]

His father was a.

[Joe Scarborough]

His father fought for Israel.

[Sam Stein]

He was an idf. Did Rahm get raised in Israel? For a period of time, yeah.

[Joe Scarborough]

Rahm is as pro Israeli as you can be. But, you know, something that Rahm says.

[Sam Stein]

Rahm's on a kibbutz, I believe. Yeah, yeah.

[Joe Scarborough]

Something that Rahm said that really struck a chord in me was he said, this isn't 1967, this isn't 1973, this is 2026. Israel is obviously the most powerful country in that region, and the United States doesn't have to keep giving it welfare. And what he said is, we should treat Israel equally with all of our other allies. We should treat Israel the same way we treat Great Britain, the same way we treat France, the same way we treat our other allies across the globe.

[Sam Stein]

Well, it might not be. If you're talking about how Trump treats his allies, that might not be great,

[Joe Scarborough]

but, yeah, that wouldn't be good.

[Sam Stein]

But I'll just say, just close out the Israel section. The common refrain you hear when you talk about the stuff we're talking about right now is that's victim blaming Benjamin Netanyahu. Israelis were attacked on October 7th, and now you're saying that they're responsible for that. To which I say, no, that's not victim blaming. Netanyahu made a series of very strategic choices after October 7th and prior to October 7th that have isolated from the horrific act of violence that happened that day, put Israel in a much worse geopolitical state and really hampered American perceptions of Israel and everything that was happening in the west bank and all those Settlements. That's different than what happened in Gaza. And those are choices that the Netanyahu government made. You can't, to your point, you can't just say, well, we will openly support you no matter what you do. We have a global strategic interest, too. And I do this as someone who loves, supports, was bar mitzvahed in Israel. I do this as someone who is a supporter of Israel.

[Joe Scarborough]

I see.

[Sam Stein]

So that's my own 2 cents of that.

[Joe Scarborough]

Well, and, you know, Rahm said, you know, the worst thing we did was giving you a blank check, telling that,

[Sam Stein]

do whatever you want.

[Joe Scarborough]

You can do whatever you want to do, and we're going to support you. And the problem with that is, again, the blowback. You can't continue an endless war without there being, when being terrible repercussions. So I understand what Rahm's saying. I understand what you're saying. I just think there has to be a more balanced foreign policy for Israel moving forward, and they've got a lot of work to do to get younger Americans to start supporting them again in both parties.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, no, no doubt. All right, we got a quick dash. Final couple topics here. We're doing 50% tariffs on Canada. You excited about that? Let me read you about what this is for. Fake recent tariff on Canadian goods in 30 days, declaring that Canada has unfairly discriminated against American autos, alcohol and cheese. I did not. I did not know cheese.

[Joe Scarborough]

Last week, Donald Trump said he was going to put. Put tariffs on them because of the smoke that came down from Canada because of the fall. Does he know how Midwest?

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, that's.

[Joe Scarborough]

That happened for you years ago. It'll probably happen again. And as, as Doug Ford said, at some point there will be wildfires in the United States and Canadians will come down to help us because they're good neighbors.

[Sam Stein]

Will they come down to help us at this point?

[Joe Scarborough]

Of course they'll come down. Of course they'll come down to help.

[Sam Stein]

They helped us in Cal. They did help us in California, I'll give them that. But after this, honestly, I'm dead serious. Like, after what, after what's happening now, why would they.

[Joe Scarborough]

We love Canadians and Canadians love us. And they understand that this is just a blip. Every time I'm in Fenway and I see somebody wearing a Blue Jays jersey, I go up and hug them and I go, I want you to know we love you. I gotta say, Sam, I was talking to a guy from Buffalo about a week or two ago, and I said to him, we were watching the world cup at a bar. And I turned to him, I said, dude, one of the greatest moments in international diplomacy came earlier this year when at a Sabres game, a home game, the microphone went out for O Canada. And all of those Buffalo fans joined in in unison and sent a message. We love you. We love Canada. And if you're. If your person can't sing your national anthem, then damn it, we're going to do it with you and for you.

[Sam Stein]

I think that's.

[Joe Scarborough]

I think it's pretty beautiful.

[Sam Stein]

That's very heartening. I wish they would stop fucking with our cheese.

[Joe Scarborough]

Exactly.

[Sam Stein]

Where did the cheese come from? I don't even know that there's a problem.

[Joe Scarborough]

I don't know. But why tax Americans? This is the thing. It is clearly a tax on Americans is something. Again, you look at all the things that Donald Trump's done by raising the deficit to record levels, raising the national debt to record levels, raising tariffs to record levels, actually having American Americans spending more money on servicing the interest on the debt than on our national defense. Taking over parts of corporations. You talk about controlling the means of production. Donald Trump is taking over parts of companies right now, and they have the nerve to call Democrats socialists and communists. It's right out of Marx's handbook.

[Sam Stein]

Right. Well, so that brings me to sort of the question about how do they go about litigating this? 3 or 4 months left we have in this campaign. Right. So I don't think there's, like, a lot particularly to run on. I mean, I'm obviously biased a little bit, but, like, the record is not all that great. If you put it. The stock market's fine. Obviously, he made that big speech last week around Save America act and election conspiracy theorizing because he wants to influence the vote. But what else is the platform? Like what. What else is the platform for Republicans heading into November?

[Joe Scarborough]

There is no platform. It's. It's like the, The, I think the 24 scare tactics, right?

[Sam Stein]

It's scare tactics.

[Joe Scarborough]

It's just scare tactics. That's. That's all they can do. But it's not going to work here. I mean, that worked in 24 in a presidential race. It's not going to work in 26. I mean, costs, corruption, the chaos inside and outside the government, the cruelty, all of these things are going to add up for Democrats. But everything they do, if they talk about corruption, which worked in Hungary and will work here. I always found when I was running in 94, we would always talk about. We'd talk about policies, policies, policies, policies, and Then we'd say, and then look what they're doing with their house banking scandal. And you throw the corruption in and you tie it back again to economic issues.

[Sam Stein]

So everything basically.

[Joe Scarborough]

Yeah, everything needs to come back to costs. Health insurance costs. I think healthcare remains sort of the hidden mess. And we're talking about all of these other things. I think at the end of the day, healthcare is going to keep growing as a major issue because it's just become so unaffordable.

[Sam Stein]

Interesting.

[Joe Scarborough]

And, you know, they slashed Medicaid. That's going to hurt red state America as much or more than it hurts blue state America. That's going to shut down rural hospitals. That's going to keep a lot of people away from their primary care providers. So that plus the problem people have having private insurance companies pay for the policies, I think it's a real issue.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah. Let me play you a clip from which I think encompasses the problem they have in their salesmanship, especially to the people who they turn to in 24, the base. This is from Tim Dillon, comedian, podcaster, who was. Was kind of Trump, curious, supportive in 2024, has clearly turned him. I want you. I want to play this clip because I think this really summarizes the issue Republicans are going to have.

[Joe Scarborough]

They're in the White House. They have the Congress, they have the Senate, they have the Supreme Court. It is them. It is now them. I don't want to hear about the deep state anymore.

[Sam Stein]

Anymore.

[Joe Scarborough]

You're playing me for a fool. You're playing everyone for a fool. You brought in Cash Patel, you brought in that other guy, Dan Bongino. You threw him out or he left, whatever. You brought in Pam Bondi and then threw her out. I'm sick of hearing about this deep state. All of these people. You have to be one of the stupidest people in the world to fall for this shit at this point.

[Sam Stein]

He's not wrong. They are the deep state.

[Joe Scarborough]

They are the deep state. And something that Thomas Massie said, he said, wait a second, you're talking about elections being stolen. We won the House, we won the Senate, we won the White House. We control the Supreme Court, we control everything in Washington, D.C. and you're talking about stolen elections. It makes no sense. And it's the same thing. They have nowhere to run. They have nowhere to hide. And the problem is that they've got a president who's really unfocused on this campaign. He's unfocused. The only thing he's doing right now is what Chris Christie said he started doing in March of 2020 and started talking about rigged elections. Oh, they're going to rig this election. They're going to do it with mail in ballots. And Christie told me later, he said, it was very obvious to me at that point in early 2020, he knew he was probably going to lose. And he was already trying to make excuses. I think that's what this is. I think this is what all of this is about. It's prebuttal. If it's close enough and Democrats only have two or three seat advantage after the elections are over, then, yes, he's gonna try to steal it. He's gonna try to get Mike Johnson to stop from seating these people. If Democrats win big, it's just his prebuttle to say, I still haven't lost an election. Those Democrats don't. They just keep rigging it. But that said, let's step back and say he thinks the election in 2016 was fair. Who was president then? Barack Hussein Obama.

[Sam Stein]

Right.

[Joe Scarborough]

He thought the election in 2024 was fair.

[Sam Stein]

Who was the president then?

[Joe Scarborough]

Sleepy Joe Biden. So he's saying that these two people that he despised and say are the dumbest people ever can run clean elections, but he couldn't in 2020, literally. I will agree with Tim Dillon here. You have to be an idiot to follow that line of thinking and saying Obama ran a clean election, Biden ran a clean election, but Donald Trump couldn't even run a clean election.

[Sam Stein]

The conspiracy just goes that deep, Joe. All right, you get dealer's choice for last topic. I'm giving you three. Okay. State of cable news. You're probably not going to do that one. The Odyssey or our Boston Red Sox.

[Joe Scarborough]

I'll do all three. State of cable news. I can only speak for Morning Joe. It's fine. Like, weirdly enough, Ms. Now, you always worry about these transitions. It's worked out great. We're doing better than ever before. And you think cable long term is good?

[Sam Stein]

Seriously? Because obviously people are shifting their viewing habits and things like that that I

[Joe Scarborough]

think for sporting events and news, live news, it's still pretty good. I mean, you know, there's a great book written by Michael Wolf called Television is the New Television. And he talked about how, like, with the AOL Time Warner merger, the guys at AOL were treated like gods and all the people in old media were, like, pushed to the side of the room. And he goes, nah, television is the new television. He wrote that probably 15 years ago, television is still the new television. For live events, for sports, that's still going. All right. The Odyssey. It was an extraordinary movie. And there's nothing I love reading more than, you know, I love nothing more than Maga tears. Have you been reading crime?

[Sam Stein]

It's unbelievable.

[Joe Scarborough]

Oh, my God. It's unbelievable. You have Ben Shapiro and other people, they're saying, oh, this is a great movie. You're a traitor to the cause. How dare you. And this goes back. This actually helps us end where we began with Pat Buchanan. You know, Pat looked at America, I think, as a white America and an America of the 1950s. He didn't even say the 1980s, when Ronald Reagan was first elected. I think 86% of Americans were white. It was still pretty big number. And what I always thought Pat didn't get, and I told him this. What Donald Trump has never gotten, what Stephen Miller will never get yet. America is not about blood and soil. America is not about race. America is about a creed. America at its best. As I've said before, I don't know all of the twists and turns, and I probably don't want to look back to see what those twists and turns are, but my family's lived in this country across the Deep south for about 400 years. We go back a long, long way, you know, from being poor in Georgia to being poor in South Carolina. We have a vast history in America. What I love about this country is that I've been here for 400 years, my family's been here for 400 years. And yet today, somewhere in America, somebody will raise their hand, they will take that oath, they will agree with that creed, and they will become every bit as much of an American as me and members of my family. I think that is something not only to celebrate, but to thank God for that. We live in that country. And if you don't mind me preaching a little bit as a Baptist, understanding that a lot of people may not agree. We have this thing in Christianity where there's a saying that says, the ground at the foot of Calvary is level. It's available to everybody. And Jesus explained this in a parable to his disciples where he said, oh, you know, a guy came to work early in the morning, and the field op owner said, I'll pay you X amount of money. And they kept coming throughout the day. And at the end of the day, he paid everybody equally. And the guy that came early in the morning said, wait, wait a second. I worked for 15 hours, and you're paying me the same came as this guy that came an hour before we. We ended. That's not fair. Because of course that's fair. I told you what you were going to be paid. I told them all what they were going to be paid. And the idea was, for us, salvation comes when you're ready to accept salvation, whether it's at the beginning of your life or the end of your life. It's the same thing with America. You become an American, the salvation second you raise your hand. I think that's so unbelievably beautiful about this country. And I don't understand why Pat, Donald Trump, Stephen Miller, and so many other Republicans don't understand that. So that's that. And so anyway, my point is that the Odyssey is not about whether all of the characters are straight and all the characters are white and all the characters look like they were chiseled from the same rock as Charlton Heston. The idea of the Odyssey is a celebration of western ideas, right? And I think Christopher Nolan does that extraordinarily well. Welcome, strangers. You know, be upstanding, be moral. And Nolan uses a lot of different great actors to do that.

[Sam Stein]

That.

[Joe Scarborough]

And. And so I. I think. I think it's a victory for him. And it's.

[Sam Stein]

What's your. What's your favorite Nolan?

[Joe Scarborough]

I've seen inception about 27 times.

[Sam Stein]

It's so good.

[Joe Scarborough]

I've seen.

[Sam Stein]

It's so good.

[Joe Scarborough]

You know, I. And even the 27th time, I'll sit and I go, oh, wait, wait, did the thing fall? Okay, wait. So, okay, so he's down, this Japanese guy. Wait, they're old. He's been down.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah.

[Joe Scarborough]

It's amazing. Inception's amazing.

[Sam Stein]

It's so good. But Prestige.

[Joe Scarborough]

Prestige is actually my oldest son, Joey. You know Joey? That's Joey's favorite Nolan movie.

[Sam Stein]

It's so good.

[Joe Scarborough]

My youngest son, Jack, he likes Interstellar. That's his choice. So I use Jack to sort of interpret Tenet for me. I don't know if you've seen Tenet. I've not.

[Sam Stein]

I didn't even see Tenet. I was. I couldn't.

[Joe Scarborough]

My mind. By the time the generals. For people that saw Tenet, I will just say by the time the generals were mapping out the battle plan for the battle that had happened in the battle that was going to come, I just passed out. I got so confused. I passed out. And when I woke up, Jack explained to me what was happening. And I went like, huh, huh. But again, like Homer Simpson in my head was, I had no idea.

[Sam Stein]

But.

[Joe Scarborough]

But weirdly enough, I first fell in love with Christopher Nolan. And it's interesting because I've never been a Batman fan, but Batman Begins. At the end of Batman Begins, I just said, holy shit. And I actually sat in my seat and I said, who did that movie? Boom. Christopher Nolan. I was like. Even though I'd seen Momento, I didn't attach it to Nolan. I really like.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah, I really enjoy Momenta. But again, he. The way he challenges you to think about the sort of narrative arc is. Is really impressive. And people should watch Prestige if they haven't seen it. Obviously, the ones.

[Joe Scarborough]

Oh, my gosh.

[Sam Stein]

Yeah. All right. We got close 14 in a row, man. I don't know. It's something. Some demon magic has inflicted our franchise. I can't explain it.

[Joe Scarborough]

I can't understand that. This is the same team that everybody declared, including Bill Simmons. And Bill wasn't alone. Everybody cleared the worst Red Sox team in our lifetime, and they pulled off 14. I love baseball. I love baseball. It's just one guy gets hot. The whole team gets hot, and one person goes out and says, I'm going to throw a shutout. The rest of them think, I can throw a shutout, too.

[Sam Stein]

It is remarkable. I will say this about baseball, and I don't want to get whimsical and all that stuff like Ken Burns, but there is something incredible about the sport where in the lowest moments, you can just be like, I can't invest myself in this. I'm not gonna watch this stuff. It's just a waste of time. And yet you can't get away from it because it's so long. The season lasts so long. There's so many different characters in it. There's so many ups and downs that eventually you always just kind of come back, right? Like, I. I just somehow got drawn back into it.

[Joe Scarborough]

It's a part of our. Part of her. It's a part of our lives life. Baseball has marked the passage of time, Ray.

[Sam Stein]

It's true.

[Joe Scarborough]

America has rolled by like an army of steamrollers. Erased. Like a blackboard. Rebuilt and erased again. But baseball.

[Sam Stein]

I can't believe you memorized the speech.

[Joe Scarborough]

Has marked the time. Oh.

[Sam Stein]

So. Field of dreams. Field of dreams. I want to. I want to show my kid, my eldest kid, I, I. When he's ready. Because he's now into baseball and he collects cards, which is, like, the greatest thing for me as a dad, because we go to the. There's like, one card store around, and we go. And I actually held onto my baseball cards, and I hand them to him, and he's, like, checking them out. He's like, Ken Griffey Jr. Rookie. That's amazing. But I'm ready to show him Field of Dreams now because I think he can understand what is essentially something spiritual about the game that I don't think really exists in other sports. Maybe soccer for the non Americans, although Argentina did its best to stamp that out. But baseball has something different than the other sports.

[Joe Scarborough]

It really does. I think the most important thing. And Field of Dreams explains this. For people that lived this, it's passed down from father to son or father to daughter. I remember some of my earliest memories, my dad taking me to Atlanta, Fulton County Stadium. I sat down, sitting with the other 4,576 people, watching the Atlanta Braves lose 100 games that year. But I still remember, I must have been four or five years old. It was Bat Day. And holding the bat in my hand, and it was like the greatest thing that had ever happened. And my dad passed that down to us. I passed that down to my children, my sons and my daughter. And when we go to Fenway, it's just. It's our happy place. And they will, you know, God willing, pass it down to their kids. That was. That was the extraordinary through line for Field of Dreams and why people like Mika will not watch the movie and say it's the stupidest thing they've ever seen. Also, have your son watch. If he hasn't watched, have him watch the Natural. Oh, my Lord. I love the Natural movie. Yeah, I love it.

[Sam Stein]

A little slow, but I love it. It's so good. It's so good. All right, man. I appreciate this. It's been such a pleasure talking to you. We should do it again.

[Joe Scarborough]

Let's do it.

[Sam Stein]

I would love to do it again. Joe Scarborough. You can catch him on Ms. Now every day from 69. I'm going to convince him to bring back his radio show that he did. From 9 to 10,

[Joe Scarborough]

we would do three hours of TV, we would rush down to WABC, and then we would do two hours hours of radio. Why would you do that? And then while writing books, and then we would go to book events like from 7 to 9. It was an insane schedule. And even. Even with that insane schedule, I was not low T. So take that. Pete hags up. It's like, that's why I'm wondering, wait a second. What's wrong with these people? We'll end on that high note. We will end on that high note. Joe.

[Sam Stein]

Thanks, man. I really appreciate it, brother.

[Joe Scarborough]

All right. Thank you, Sam. And the colors of the sea, your

[Sam Stein]

eyes with trembling mermaids and you touch

[Joe Scarborough]

the distant beaches with tales of rad Ulysses, how his naked ears were tortured by the sirens sweetly singing while the

[Sam Stein]

sparkling waves are calling you to kiss the white lacedness.

[Joe Scarborough]

The Borg Podcast is brought to you thanks to the work of lead producer

[Sam Stein]

Katie Cooper, associate producer Ansley Skipper, and with video editing by Katie Lutz and audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.