Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Bulwark Podcast – Episode: Jon Favreau: Funny and Horrible

Release Date: December 20, 2024
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Ryan Seacrest
Knowledge Cutoff: October 2023

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Introduction and Setting the Stage (00:00 – 01:08)

The episode opens with a festive atmosphere, setting a light-hearted tone before diving into serious political discourse. Tim Miller introduces the episode as the last daily podcast of the year, mentioning a brief hiatus and setting expectations for the next episode post-Christmas.

Current Political Chaos and Government Shutdown (01:48 – 04:48)

Key Discussion Points:

• Bipartisan Deal Collapse: Tim Miller discusses the failed bipartisan agreement between Mike Johnson and the Democrats, attributing its downfall to Elon Musk's unpredictable interventions.

  Tim Miller [02:26]: "There was a bipartisan deal between Mike Johnson and the Democrats, was scuttled by Elon's megalomania and possibly ketamine use."

• Republican Disunity: The conversation highlights the lack of cohesion within the Republican Party, with 38 Republicans opposing the deal and Florida Rep. Anna Paulina Luna's stance against negotiating with Democrats.

  Ryan Seacrest [03:35]: "Everything's going to be horrible for sure, but kind of fun to watch."

• Potential Government Shutdown: Both hosts express skepticism about a smooth resolution, predicting a possible government shutdown due to the fragmented Republican votes.

Notable Quotes:

• Ryan Seacrest [04:48]: "Donald Trump is, he might have some political genius to him. He's an idiot. Right?"
• Tim Miller [03:23]: "But biggest picture, here's what we got."

Elon Musk's Influence and Potential Conflicts (07:31 – 08:37)

Key Discussion Points:

• Musk as Speaker: Tim Miller and Ryan Seacrest delve into Elon Musk's potential role as Speaker of the House, questioning the conflicts of interest given his business involvements.

  Tim Miller [07:31]: "Do you have thoughts on. On Chairman Musk?"

• Global Political Interference: They touch upon Musk's international political endorsements, including funding Nigel Farage's Reform Party bid in the UK and endorsing the AfD in Germany, raising concerns about foreign influence.

Notable Quotes:

• Ryan Seacrest [08:17]: "He endorsed the AFP in Germany, which is, you know, the new Neo Nazi Party."

Survival of Mike Johnson as Speaker (09:39 – 14:09)

Key Discussion Points:

• Speaker Challenges: The hosts debate Mike Johnson's viability as Speaker of the House amidst internal party strife and lack of unanimous Republican support.

  Tim Miller [09:39]: "What's with these Republicans? Do you think Mike Johnson can survive?"*

• Implications for Electoral Votes: They discuss the constitutional consequences if the Speaker isn't elected, highlighting that electoral votes for Donald Trump could be uncountable without an official Speaker.

  Ryan Seacrest [12:07]: "They can't count the electoral votes for Donald Trump."

• Democratic Leverage: The conversation underscores that Democrats might gain more leverage in congressional battles next year due to a potentially narrower Republican majority.

Notable Quotes:

• Ryan Seacrest [10:09]: "He's got to go."
• Tim Miller [13:37]: "But I've been impressed with them."

Media Strategy and Reaching Low-Info Voters (21:20 – 32:40)

Key Discussion Points:

• Engaging Non-Political Audiences: Ryan Seacrest elaborates on his Atlantic article focusing on how Democrats can better reach voters who are disengaged from politics.

  Ryan Seacrest [22:07]: "We have to figure out a way to reach the, like, people who don't consume news that much."

• Challenges in Messaging: The hosts discuss the ineffectiveness of current political ads targeting low-information voters, suggesting a need to re-evaluate and innovate outreach strategies.

  Tim Miller [30:59]: "All the answers to that have been from the political class have been awful, awful, awful."

• Focus Groups and Voter Insights: Ryan shares anecdotes from canvassing and focus groups, emphasizing the complexity of voter identities and the inadequacy of simplistic explanations like racism or economic anxiety solely driving political decisions.

Notable Quotes:

• Ryan Seacrest [29:55]: "Ben Wickler, who's running for DNC chair, was just talking about this the other day."
• Tim Miller [31:21]: "You got to bring some people in the room that are like, forget about Tony Blinken."

Left-Wing Backlash and Political Violence (34:37 – 44:20)

Key Discussion Points:

• Rise of Vigilante Assassinations: Ryan Seacrest addresses backlash from the left regarding his stance against vigilante violence, sharing his discomfort with the glorification of extrajudicial killings.

  Ryan Seacrest [35:08]: "Vigilante murder, bad. Insurance companies, also bad."

• Potential for Left-Wing Authoritarianism: The hosts express concerns that excusing political violence could lead to a slippery slope of increased authoritarian practices on the left, mirroring fears about right-wing extremism.

  Ryan Seacrest [35:08]: "The alternative to the right wing authoritarianism that we are fighting right now is left wing authoritarianism."

• Generational Perspectives: Discussion on how younger generations, exposed to constant outrage on social media, may be more susceptible to nihilistic and violent sentiments compared to older generations who have witnessed historical conflicts.

Notable Quotes:

• Ryan Seacrest [36:44]: "The alternative to the right wing authoritarianism... is left wing authoritarianism."
• Tim Miller [41:09]: "I was like, well, it's okay... we should just keep moving forward."

Wall Street Journal’s Critique of Joe Biden’s Administration (46:09 – 55:22)

Key Discussion Points:

• Management of Biden's Age: The hosts discuss a Wall Street Journal article critiquing how Joe Biden’s administration manages his age, including short meetings and limited access from key Democratic figures.

  Ryan Seacrest [48:11]: "The key in that piece, too."

• Lack of Honest Feedback: Concerns are raised about Biden’s advisors failing to provide honest assessments of his performance, contributing to misguided decisions such as his bid for re-election.

  Ryan Seacrest [50:15]: "Most important... the small circle of people around Joe Biden that did not push him and were not honest with him."

• Impact on Democratic Strategy: Tim Miller expresses frustration over the administration’s inability to receive critical feedback, which he believes has led to strategic missteps, including misunderstandings of midterm election outcomes.

Notable Quotes:

• Tim Miller [48:25]: "When you are the president, you are sort of ensconced in this little bubble."
• Ryan Seacrest [52:24]: "What matters is whether you decide to try or not try."

Maintaining Hope and Fighting for Democratic Ideals (55:22 – 65:50)

Key Discussion Points:

• Belief in American Ideals: Ryan Seacrest emphasizes his unwavering belief in the foundational ideals of America, such as equality and liberty, despite current political turmoil.

  Ryan Seacrest [59:53]: "It is a radical idea."

• Nonviolent Strategy for Change: Drawing parallels to the Civil Rights Movement, Seacrest advocates for nonviolent efforts to persuade and unify the country, rejecting the notion of force as a means to political ends.

  Ryan Seacrest [40:48]: "We have the capacity to change, change our minds, change the way we behave, change the country."

• Personal Reflections and Hope: The conversation concludes on a personal note, with Ryan sharing his resilience and hope for positive change through continuous effort and belief in democratic processes.

  Ryan Seacrest [60:26]: "We are more than the worst thing we've ever done."

  Ryan Seacrest [61:51]: "That's what I want to teach my kids."

Notable Quotes:

• Ryan Seacrest [63:36]: "We contain multitudes. And this is a country that has never lived up to the ideals of its founding that are still worth fighting for."
• Ryan Seacrest [64:33]: "These are like universal principles that aren't America."

Conclusion and Final Thoughts (65:07 – 66:30)

Key Discussion Points:

• Holiday Plans and Offline Time: The episode wraps up with personal anecdotes about holiday plans, signaling a temporary pause in daily discussions.

  Tim Miller [65:07]: "I'm going to be offline with Tim Miller."

• Final Reflections: Both hosts express mutual respect and acknowledgment of the challenges ahead, reinforcing the episode's themes of resilience and hope amidst political chaos.

Notable Quotes:

• Tim Miller [66:25]: "Everyone else, you have a merry Christmas."
• Ryan Seacrest [65:12]: "We are the most online."

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Key Takeaways:

• Political Fragmentation: The Republican Party's lack of unity poses significant challenges for passing legislation and avoiding government shutdowns.

• Elon Musk's Political Role: Musk's burgeoning influence raises concerns about conflicts of interest and foreign interference in U.S. politics.

• Democratic Outreach Challenges: Democrats struggle to effectively communicate and engage with low-information voters, necessitating innovative strategies beyond traditional media.

• Concerns Over Left-Wing Extremism: There's apprehension about the potential rise of left-wing authoritarianism similar to existing right-wing extremism.

• Administration Critiques: Joe Biden's administration faces scrutiny over handling his age and receiving honest feedback from advisors, impacting strategic decisions.

• Hope and Democratic Ideals: Despite current challenges, there's a strong belief in the enduring American ideals of equality and liberty, emphasizing nonviolent means for political change.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Ryan Seacrest [03:35]: "Everything's going to be horrible for sure, but kind of fun to watch."

• Ryan Seacrest [04:48]: "Donald Trump is, he might have some political genius to him. He's an idiot. Right?"

• Tim Miller [13:37]: "But I've been impressed with them."

• Ryan Seacrest [35:08]: "The alternative to the right wing authoritarianism that we are fighting right now is left wing authoritarianism."

• Ryan Seacrest [59:53]: "It is a radical idea."

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This episode provides a comprehensive analysis of the current political landscape, exploring internal party dynamics, the impact of influential figures like Elon Musk, and the strategic challenges faced by the Democratic Party. Through insightful discussions and personal reflections, Tim Miller and Ryan Seacrest navigate the complexities of modern American politics, balancing skepticism with a persistent hope for democratic ideals.

Transcript

[Tim Miller]

Lights are going up. Snow is falling down.

[Jon Favreau]

There's a feeling of goodwill around town. It could only mean one thing.

[Tim Miller]

McRib is here. People throwing parties, ugly sweaters everywhere. Stockings hung up by the chimney with care.

[Jon Favreau]

It could only mean one thing.

[Ryan Seacrest]

McRib is here at participating McDonald's for a limited time.

[Unknown]

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[Tim Miller]

Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. It is the last daily Bulwark podcast out of the year. I'll be back. I'm not like my guest who's taken off, who knows a whole month, I think working on French time. I'll be back the Monday after, after Christmas. So next week I'm going skiing. I need it. And today I'm here with the co founder of Crooked Media, co host of Pond Save America. You might have heard of it. He also has a podcast offline. He was Obama's speechwriter from 2005 to 2013. It's Jon Favreau. What's going on, man?

[Ryan Seacrest]

Thanks for holding space for me in this last daily Bullet work podcast. For a while we're going to hold.

[Tim Miller]

A lot of space together. Actually, at the very end of this podcast, I'm going to endeavor to make you cry like John Lovett did when he was last on.

[Ryan Seacrest]

I'm telling you, you're going to have a toug.

[Tim Miller]

His tears were on were on Jesse Waters Show. So if we don't have a clip from this podcast show up on Jesse Waters show, it is going to be a disappointment.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Wait, did Jesse Waters show Lovett crying on your show? Did that happen?

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Ryan Seacrest]

How did I miss that? Why didn't you send that around?

[Tim Miller]

I think I did. I don't remember. Or maybe I was sensitive about it. Maybe I felt I might have not sent it because I felt bad for him. But it's been a few weeks, so now the scars have built up and now I think it's funny. We'll find the archive before we get to tears and before we get to talking about your Atlantic article about what the Democrats are doing wrong, which might also lead to tears. We need to talk about what's happening on the Hill. By the time we have this podcast up, the state of play might have changed some. But biggest picture, here's what we got. There was a bipartisan deal between Mike Johnson and the Democrats, was scuttled by Elon's megalomania and possibly ketamine use. We don't know. Mike Johnson attempted to fix it by stripping down the deal a little bit and getting Daddy Trump on board ahead of time, which probably should have done the first time, gotten approval from Daddy. But even still, 38 Republicans voted against it. They're taking a third swing this morning. But the last I saw, Florida Rep. Anna Paulina Luna said that they are not negotiating with Democrats, which means they're going to need to get every single Republican on board. And, boy, I don't see that as very likely. But I'm wondering what your, what your takeaways are from the shit show over on Capitol Hill and the possible government shutdown.

[Ryan Seacrest]

I will say it's the first time since the election, as I watch this unfold, I'm like, oh, you know, everything's going to be horrible for sure, but kind of fun to watch.

[Tim Miller]

Funny and horrible.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Funny and horrible. I mean, look, they kind of like.

[Tim Miller]

Love it or leave it.

[Ryan Seacrest]

I've told this to friends who were like, you know, maybe it's not so bad that Donald Trump is running the country and we have a.

[Tim Miller]

Wait, hold on. Which friends are those?

[Ryan Seacrest]

You know, I have some friends who were like, I voted for Kamala Harris, but the Democrats, Democrats do suck. You have to know that. You know, and maybe, maybe it's, I don't want four years of Donald Trump. But maybe it's not the end of the world. Maybe the other leaders of the other countries will be scared by him because he's so crazy. You know, that kind of thing. And I'm like, here's the thing. Donald Trump is, he might have some political genius to him. He's an idiot. Right? And when you have a bunch of idiots running things who don't know what they're doing, that's not going to lead to good outcomes for anyone. And, like, that's sort of what we're starting to see here. Like, why did Elon Musk blow up the deal? Who knows? Did he see a tweet somewhere that pissed him off? Did he see some misinformation? It doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. He's probably Scrolling through his platform, saw something that got him. Got him mad, fired off a tweet, and then, boom, whole deal blows up. Government shuts down for what we don't know. There's no. There's no rhyme or reason to any of this. No ideology behind it. There's no. It's just, you know, it's just breaking things as we go.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. My big takeaway from that is that I think there's something nice about you, that you have your friends that are willing to be that honest with you to tell you that they don't think it might be that bad. I think most of my friends would be scared. Most of my friends would be scared to offer that opinion to me for fear that I'd browbeat them and would get into a screaming text match or that I would derail the LSU game by yelling at them about how sanguine they are in the face of the authoritarian threat. So that's nice.

[Ryan Seacrest]

I don't do that, Tim. I have deep conversations and I have a lot of patience, which I don't know.

[Tim Miller]

I don't know why, but I like that about you. We'll get to that. More the lack of ideology. I'm here in. I should have said this at the top. I'm here in Phoenix for a magochella, and I saw Steve Bannon last night and Tucker and Ben Shapiro. All your faves.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

And so I want to talk about that. But your point that relates to what I experienced last night is there is no ideological through line here.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Right.

[Tim Miller]

Like, the Republicans have voted against this. Like, some of them voted against it because they. They wanted their little special line item that they liked that got cut out at the last second. Some of them voted against it because they don't like debt limit. Some of them voted against it because they just like positioning themselves as the craziest son of a bitch out there that, like, just wants to burn everything down. They think that's a good brand for them. Elon's, like, the difference between the two bills. Like, what was it exactly that Elon didn't like about the first bill that he liked with the second bill? It's not. It's not clear. It is a motley collaboration of people that is united really only by one thing, which is like, we'd like Donald Trump and we don't like the Libs.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yeah, I was going to say that's.

[Tim Miller]

Part of the part.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yeah. Because they like Donald Trump, but they also just. They just want to win things. And they. And they hate the Libs and Mike Lee, Senator from Utah, was on cable last night somewhere saying, Mike Johnson can't be speaker anymore. It's got to be Elon Musk or Vivek Ramaswamy should be Speaker. We're, like, steps away from, like, Chancellor Musk dissolving Congress because it's just, it's too messy. It did make me realize that, like, Democrats are going to have more leverage in at least the Congressional fights next year than people might think, because they're going to have an even narrower majority Republicans in the House next year. And, I mean, we're watching this play out now, and maybe they get the votes and maybe they do some. Maybe they, you know, keep the government open, but they're going to have a government funding fight. They're going to have to deal with the debt ceiling again. It doesn't look like they're going to get. Eliminate the debt ceiling or a debt ceiling hike in this deal. They're going to. They're trying to pass a tax package that they have to pass. Energy, immigration, all this shit. Like, they can only afford to. Yeah, Farm bill. They can only afford to lose one or two or three or four Republicans at most, at least for the first couple months while they fill out those special elections. So, yeah, it's not going to be easy for them.

[Tim Miller]

The Musk thing. Do you have thoughts on. On Chairman Musk? I mean, he's. He's the shadow president, potentially the speaker of the House, also the largest government contractor.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yep.

[Tim Miller]

You know, it seems like there's some potential conflicts there. I think in the same Mike Lee clip that you referenced, he talked about how Musk could drain the swamp. It's like, is there a precedent for somebody that is this deep into all of the different level levers of government in addition to, you know, owning a media platform, a social media platform, not.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Just in our government now, either. I mean, he's announcing that he's, like, funding Nigel Farage's Reform Party bid in the UK this morning. He endorsed the AFP in Germany, which is, you know, the new Neo Nazi Party. Yeah, sorry, the AfD in Germany.

[Tim Miller]

Tommy would be very unhappy with you.

[Ryan Seacrest]

I know, I know. I miss my world. That my. I was just. I was railing about it this morning, and now I screwed up.

[Tim Miller]

He's also on the take from the Chinese. I'm bringing that up with Steve Bannon when I see him here in a couple hours. That feels like something that could potentially be a conflict to have the speaker of the House and shadow president and biggest government contractor also Being on the take from the Chinese.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yeah, I mean, the whole thing is crazy. But what I'm trying to figure out is like Elon Musk, you know, I was talking to Ro Khanna about him this week on Pod Save America, you know, and he makes the point, like a lot of Americans look at him and they're like, this guy puts rockets into space and he's really successful and they think that's cool. And I think there's something to that. Like, you look at the polls, right? Like there he is not the most unpopular figure in the country right now. And so the question is, how do we get people, most people, to realize like what's going on? A, that Elon is basically running the government and B, that there's so many conflicts that it's just a corruption play. And also he doesn't know what the fuck he's doing. And so a bunch of people are going to get hurt by it. And I do think we kind of have to focus on like what he does that actually harms people and what he does to actually help himself. Right. Because I think, you know, it's just like dealing with Trump. We can go on and on about all the crazy Elon tweets and this and that and all the shit that he says, but I think the effects of him running the country and maybe the world are going to be the most important thing for people to lift up.

[Tim Miller]

I want to get more into the Jon Favreau anti corporate populist in the Democrat section before. I'm curious your take on whether this is usually what you would ask me on Pod Save America, but we're going to flip the mic.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Sure.

[Tim Miller]

What's with these Republicans? Do you think Mike Johnson can survive? I want to play you a clip from my buddy Bannon last night. The political class is infected with a malignant cancer. Cancer is bipartisanship.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Clearly Johnson's not up to the task. He's got to go, right?

[Tim Miller]

He's got to go. Should Johnson be Speaker of the House? Kind of a half hearted no there from the crowd, but still didn't hear a lot of yeses. Do you think Mike survives?

[Ryan Seacrest]

Did you see Trump last night? Trump? I was asked about this somewhere and he was like, you know, he's a good guy. He's trying hard. He's trying hard. I hope he, I hope he's got to be strong. He's got to be strong. So it's not. Wasn't the full throated Trump endorsement, but you can see this is why, like Mike Johnson is, you know, like the, the lame member of their clique. Now he's just like on board with, on board Trump's plane with Musk and then he's at the, he's at the Army Navy game with them. He looks out of place.

[Tim Miller]

Like he's just, he's in the back of the pictures.

[Ryan Seacrest]

He's always in the back of the picture. He's like who, he's, who invited this guy? You know, he doesn't really fit.

[Tim Miller]

Also, I mean Elon with the drug use and like the many. Why like both Elon and Trump have the many wives, the womanizing. They, I think like naked women. Seems like Mike Johnson on the other hand, monitoring.

[Ryan Seacrest]

They're not monitoring each other's pouring intake. Yeah, that's right. It's just a key difference.

[Tim Miller]

It's not a, like it doesn't feel like, you know, if you're going to bro down. He's, he's, he's the guy at the top of the list. Steve later in that clip said he doesn't have the moxie. You know, he doesn't have the moxy.

[Ryan Seacrest]

I mean whether he survives for a long term or not, like he might survive like the next couple votes, I don't see how he or anyone sure survives in that role. It's the role more than the person that's the problem right now because they have no margin and you still have the Chip Roys and the, and this wing of Republicans in the House who are just going to like just be crazier than even, you know, Donald Trump and Elon Musk and, and the mainstream MAGA Republicans. And so I don't know how anyone survives in that position. But did you know that if, if they can't elect Mike Johnson speaker or they can't elect a speaker when Congress convenes in January.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Ryan Seacrest]

They can't count the electoral votes for Donald Trump.

[Tim Miller]

So if Kamala Harris has the courage.

[Ryan Seacrest]

No, no, it's not even color. Joe Biden, Kamala Harris have to step aside by law. So you know what we're going to get? We get President Chuck Grassley.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, Chuck Grassley.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Chuck Grassley. It's upset. President Senate pro temp.

[Tim Miller]

Well, if you're concerned about the gerontocracy, that would be actually, would be appropriate passing of the torch in the late American republic from President Obama.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Wouldn't that be great?

[Tim Miller]

President Grassley? Yeah, it gives us something to hope for.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Keep up the energy. Do you think he'll stay? Do you think he'll survive?

[Tim Miller]

Johnson? I think it's 50 50. And I've been saying, I think because of inertia I'd put a little bit above 5050 just because it's like you can't beat somebody with nobo. Even took a long time to get rid of Mike Kevin even though they wanted to get rid of Mike Kevin for a long time. You know, it's an impossible job. So it's not like if there was a clear mag alternative with Moxie who was an actual congressman, not Vivek Ramaswamy in this big forehead like then sure, I think they could get rid of him for sure for him to survive. His challenge now is he's going to have to squeeze out this CR with just Republican votes unless the Dems bail him out. The Dems aren't going to bail him out. Right. I've been kind of impressed. I will say the Dems have shown some backbone on this. You could imagine a different Democratic Party that would have been a little bit wobbly. And it's like, well, all right, well, we don't want people to not get their paychecks at Christmas, so we'll cut a deal that we don't really like. Even if children's cancer research we lose, but we'll still go along with it because we got disaster relief or something. They're not doing that.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Last I saw. Hakeem Jeffries did say the lines of communication with Mike Johnson are open again and they're starting to talk to them again. Of course, this is Friday morning.

[Tim Miller]

That's the death knell for Mike Johnson. Maybe that was a strategic move by Hakeem May.

[Ryan Seacrest]

So. Yeah, but they're going to need some Democratic votes and I don't know what Democrats vote for if I think they got debt ceiling out of this latest package. But if it's like you can imagine, if it's a clean cr, that's just like a patch that gives, that kicks it one more month down the road.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah.

[Ryan Seacrest]

You know, maybe the Democrats do it so they don't have. We don't have chaos around Christmas.

[Tim Miller]

But yeah, I've been impressed with them. I wanted them to let him walk the plank and they have been letting him walk the plank. Yeah, it's an impossible job to begin with. And while we're just being happy for a second before we kind of get into the depths of despair, I do think about like the lame duckness of Trump might limit his organist power somewhat. And so that's kind of a double edged sword because on the one hand I think again, it will maybe prevent some of the authoritarian stuff we're worried about. On the other hand, it might make them start doing some of this. I want to play a little bit more from Bannon last night. And one last thing. Trump 2028, MSNBC, you. Nobody watches more MSNBC than that guy and your mother. I mean, like, they're the top two MSNBC viewers on the marketplace. And he still. So. So it's a little performative there to be like, fuck you. But they're going to have to start doing this, don't you think? Like, pretending like Trump might run again in order for him to maintain his hold. Or is that wishful thinking or nightmare thinking?

[Ryan Seacrest]

I heard Bannon say this at the New York Young Republican Club thing this week, and his view on this from Mike Davis, noted legal expert Mike Davis. Because in the Constitution, it doesn't say consecutive terms that maybe Trump can run again, in which case, let's do Trump. Obama 2028. Let's do it. Let's bring him back.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah. Mike Davis wanted to put me in the women's prison, he said, which I think I just like.

[Ryan Seacrest]

I think that's a pretty good deal.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, that's what I was like, great.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Why? Why? Great. Yeah. Thank you.

[Tim Miller]

Sign me up. I think he thought that was a neg. But.

[Ryan Seacrest]

But you think they're going to put pods of America and the Bulwark in the same. Same prison. Do you think we're going to get to share, John? I hope so, too. That would. That would be fun for me.

[Tim Miller]

You know, if we're going to. If we're going to suffer, we might as well suffer together. My only other observation for all this, which is related from last night, is, you know, the signage at this place, at this America Fest, is all confirmed. Trump's Cabinet. It's just total Trump cultish hagiography. The speeches are all over the place. I mean, literally, it's like Ben Shapiro gave what could have been a Paul Ryan speech with like 20% of Mr. Trump. God's hand is on Mr. Trump. Put on top of the Paul Ryan speech. And then Bannon is like, arrest Zelensky, Trump 2028. Then Tucker's like, kind of, we need to go after the big banks. And then Ben Carson is talking. There's no coher through line.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

And I do wonder, before we get to your suggestions on what the Dems could do, am I being Alan Lichtmany to just think that this might just burn itself out? Like, maybe the Dems just need to let this burn itself out. It's like burned really hot and they got what they wanted and now, you know, they've got nothing left to fight for.

[Ryan Seacrest]

I think it could burn itself out. But I also think that Dems can't just stand by and let that happen because I think we got to let people know exactly what's going on. But we have for a couple years now talked about the challenge of like Democrats being in power and having this big heterodox coalition that extends from, you know, Liz Cheney to Bernie Sanders and AOC and how that's difficult and it's tough to keep it together.

[Tim Miller]

Angela Davis to Bill Crystal is the version of that I liked the best. Same idea.

[Ryan Seacrest]

But like, at least we have like a real a platform. You know, even like Liz Cheney in the coalition, she wasn't asking anyone to change the platform. Right. She just wants to stop Donald Trump and Joe Biden. He came into office, he had things he wanted to do. And I don't. I think there is a split between, like, I mean, there's the J.D. vance style Republicans who might want to be a little more populist. Right. You know, Josh Hawley's out there proposing like an expanded child tax credit. And then there's Elon and Vivek, the billionaires who are seem to be more libertarian. They just want to cut government. Do you know, people to suffer? Trump doesn't know, you know, whoever. The last person who talks to Trump, that's how he believes, how things should go. So, like, I think it's going to be a fucking mess. I really do. And I don't think that that guarantees wins for Democrats or for all of us or that means everything's going to be great. But I do think when we, when we look at the next four years and figure out, like, how to strategize, we should keep in mind that it is most likely going to be chaos and infighting and figure out how we can take advantage of that.

[Tim Miller]

It was just so North Korea yesterday. Even more than usual. There was just no underlying ideological message.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Because they just wanted to win. That's it. Own the libs. And they owned the libs. So now what do they do? Now they got to own them harder.

[Tim Miller]

Well, they got to own Mike Johnson. Mike Johnson's the new lib, which is why I think he's on thin ice. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, the happy part of me is this kind of we get to sit here and laugh and point and chuckle at their incompetence. The dark side of me is like, man, if it continues to be this kind of a shit show and things look really, really bad in two years and we have an 80 year old sundowning Trump might, then the cults decide that they need to turn to a darker sort of vision for the future. And that's the thing that really has me a little concerned about it. So there you go. Don't be too happy.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yeah, me too. Me too, Tim. It's possible that happens. And my philosophy on all this is we gotta take it one day at a time because, well, you know, it's taken me like 43 years to get here. But I do think that if we all spend all of our time like dooming about the future and what might happen, like A, it's not going to change anything and B, it's going to take our focus away from like what we can do right now to actually fight these guys and also try to take power back by convincing people that we should have it.

[Tim Miller]

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[Ryan Seacrest]

I did.

[Tim Miller]

It's an appropriate place to write. You wrote about people who aren't engaged in politics and how to reach them. And so obviously the right place to go for that was the Atlantic.

[Ryan Seacrest]

The Atlantic, yeah. Widely read by the TikTok generation and.

[Tim Miller]

The low information votes, even if we don't agree. The headline was the conversation Dems need to have. And so we're two white guys with podcasts. So we'll have that conversation right now. And it was, even if we don't agree with views of leftists or liberals or never Trumpers or MAGA Republicans, we understand them, or at least think we do. The people whose views we don't understand tend to be the people who simply don't follow politics that closely. And yet that's most Americans. And you're arguing that the thing that the Dems should be focusing on is how to reach those people. And you feel like the current, the current trajectory isn't great on that count. So. So why don't you talk about that?

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yeah, so thing about me in writing is I don't do it much anymore because it takes too much time. But the Atlantic reached out and they asked if I wanted to write a piece and I was like, you know what, I should finally put some thoughts down on paper instead of just tweeting and skating and talking on a podcast. So I did. Really, this was just a piece for, for your pal Sarah Longwell, because, you know, it was inspired partly by focus group I've done, but also focus groups that she's done that I've listened to. And also just like knocking on doors and doing canvassing and I think tell.

[Tim Miller]

The knocking on door story that you started the article with for people who are not.

[Ryan Seacrest]

We were in Vegas the Sunday before the election. We were in a very working class neighborhood in East Las Vegas. Knocked on one door. I was with Tommy Vitor, Nina Harris, who's on Vote Save America. And it's like 72 year old on the list. It said 72 year old registered Democrat. This little old Asian woman comes to the door. She's like sort of tough to understand, but she's very sweet. And we ask her if she's voted yet and she says she's kind of confused, that no, she hasn't voted yet. And then she said, trump, President Trump. And we're like, no, no, no, no. President Trump. And she's like. And she's like. And we're like, kamala Harris. And she's like, oh, didn't she let in all those illegals who killed all those cops? I saw that. And we're like, no. So then I was just like, all right, what do you say? Right? And I imagined at the moment, if this woman had posted that on social media, right? Which is the first thing that would happen is everyone. She would be canceled. People would scream things at her. Eventually, Trump would invite her to the State of the Union.

[Tim Miller]

I think she'd have to kill a black person on the subway to get invited to the State of the Union. But okay, yep.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yeah, well, that's true. So I stopped and I was like, here's the thing. I'm like, if actually, if Kamala Harris wins, she will pretty much close the border, especially when there's an influx of migrants that are. That goes above a certain level. Like, she's going to be tough on border. And by the way, she's also going to make your prescriptions cheaper. And then Tommy's like, and she's going to cut your taxes. And the woman sort of just looks at all of us and she's like, okay. She goes. And we're like, what do you mean? She's like, I'll vote for Kamala. We're like, really? She's like, yeah. She gives us a thumbs up, we give her a thumbs up, and we walk away. And, you know, it was just. Most interactions, as you know, you've been in politics, are not like that. Most. They're not that satisfying. When you talk to voters, some voters make you. They say things that make you insane, as, you know, by listening to all these focus groups. But it is an indication that people are much more complicated than those of us who pay close attention to politics think. Because, like I said, like, we. We know what the MAGA diehards think and we know what the leftists think. Like, we ex. We encounter cohesive political identities all the time, and that's just not the case when it comes to most voters. And so I think that as we all talk about politics, as we all, you know, churn out our content or we're doing our posting and stuff like that. Like, at some point we have to think that the way people perceive politics, people who don't pay attention that much, is through this, like, algorithmic mix of takes and. And opinions and pieces and cable hits and whatever else that, like, leaks through the bubble that we're all in to someone who's just checking out TikTok a couple days before an election. Right. And there's a whole other conversation about, like, how we reach these people, which is obviously not just happening on Pod Save America or the Bulwark or the Atlantic. Right. But there's also a conversation to be had not just in how we reach them, but when we reach them, how we argue and how we talk about politics. And I think that those of us who talk about politics a lot are a little more. We're not using language that most people use. We don't have a style of argument or debate that most people find persuasive. And if we don't persuade people, like, we're not going to win, you know, and the way that a lot of us talk about politics is, you know, we're trying to fight battles in order to make ourselves feel right about being right. And politics is not just about being right. It is about persuading people to think differently and behave differently. And that's how you win an election, when an election is how you govern.

[Tim Miller]

You know, you wrote about kind of in 2016 that there was a lot of, like, well, there's misogyny at play here and that there's obviously this conversation about how there's this misinformation and the disinformation of the Russians. And this time it's like, well, there could be racism and misogyny and inflation was a problem and Biden was too old. We're gonna get to that. And all those things are kind of true. Right. But they also are alibis. They also are alibis to having to actually go out there and convince people that the other alternative for governing is superior.

[Ryan Seacrest]

It is an entirely human reaction to look for simple, easy explanations and simple, easy answers. And so it is very easy and maybe somewhat satisfying to be like, okay, the problem is we need, you know, I've seen this a lot. We need more independent media. I got a lot of this from the piece. People are like, like, don't, you know, the real problem is the information ecosystem, and we need to build up independent, progressive media. And I was like, you know, or center media. I do. Or center. I'm like, you know, I do know that I, I, I did start a progressive media company seven years ago. So I am, I am aware of that point. But that is necessary. But, like, it's all this search for, okay, well, you know, Hillary lost because of misogyny and, and racism. And everyone mocked, you know, working class voters for economic anxiety after Trump won in 2016. And it was like, oh, well, actually they were just racist. And it's like, yeah, well, the complicated truth is racial resentment definitely fueled a lot of Trump voters. But, okay, then we had a bunch of Latino voters who voted for Trump. And now Asian American voters are voting for Trump and black men, some black men are voting for Trump and young people. Right. So it's like we're out of excuses at this point. And unfortunately, we're also out of very easy answers on how to move forward and beat him. And the real work of democracy is like, like talking to and persuading people that you don't agree with on everything. And like, I know that's a hard thing to hear and it's not meant to be. Like, we should all be centrist and moderate and all that because some people who are classified as, like, moderate as, you know, have like, extremely left views on some issues and extremely right views on other issues. Like, people don't have political identities that make sense to partisans. That's just the whole. That's most of the electorate. You know, it's a message to. That's part of the reason it was written in the Atlantic. It is a message to all of us who pay close attention to politics. Politics.

[Tim Miller]

Do you have any thoughts on the media side of things, though? Is the answer to create more left media or pro democracy media, whatever you want to call it, or is it actually trying to engage in other media bubbles and having people that have non maga views represented in other spaces? I think I played the audio from my friend from our guy Stavros, who's a comedian from, I think his podcast was called Cumtown. And he went on one of these bro podcasts and crushed. I gave the best answer that I've heard yet for not voting for Trump. I'll put in the, I'll put in the show notes for people if you haven't seen it. But, like, what is the right balance of, like, where is your focus on that?

[Ryan Seacrest]

I think three things we need to do. Ben Wickler, who's running for DNC chair, was just talking about this the other day.

[Tim Miller]

I thought it was really such a Wickler. Stan.

[Ryan Seacrest]

I'm a Wickler.

[Tim Miller]

I'm neutral on the DNC race. Nobody's. Nobody's knocked my socks off yet.

[Ryan Seacrest]

No, we're going to have, you know, whoever wants to come on Podcast of America. I think I'm supposed to talk to Ken Martin when we get Back from the break.

[Tim Miller]

There was a bald guy on MSNBC talking about how the Democrats should learn more from Trump and how that they should do tax tax cuts. The Trump tax cuts were really great. And he's running for DNC chair. I thought it was performance art. I saw it on the plane yesterday.

[Ryan Seacrest]

So is that that state senator from New York, Maryland? I have no idea.

[Tim Miller]

Anyway, we're getting him booked on Podcast America. He has some interesting points. Definitely more corporate tax cuts, I think is the path back for the.

[Ryan Seacrest]

No, that's. That's what the people want, more corporate tax cuts, less funding for childhood cancer. So three steps, one and the third is the hardest. But one I do think like, like I would love more independent media. And when I say progressive, great, but also, you know, I think of liberalism now as small l liberalism stretching from the far left to the center right. Any kind of independent media along that ideological spectrum, I'm for. I think we need more of it. I think number two is to absolutely go into these other spaces, you know, with people that we don't necessarily agree with, go on their shows, talk to them, try to expose their audiences to other views, since they're not necessarily being exposed to other political views. So I think that's important. And then I think the big challenge here is like, we have to figure out a way to reach the, like, people who don't consume news that much. Not just political news, any kind of news. And that is the tough one, that no one is the nut, that no one's cracked yet. And I think we need to focus a lot more on that. We think about that a lot here at Cricket Media. Like, how do we go beyond our own audiences? I'm sure you guys think about that too.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, all the answers to that have been from the political class have been awful, awful, awful. Like every, every ad that I've seen trying to target low info voters is like a parody of attempt to do it. So like all of the ad wizards out there working on this, like, you just gotta start, like throw everything in the trash and start from square zero.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Because the people thinking about it aren't low info voters. Right, right. We like Democrats, we lean on identity as an explanation for all kinds of things, but we forget to lean on identity as an explanation for like, like why low information voters don't think like us because we're not in their shoes. And so you actually need to talk to people who don't consume a lot of news and politics about politics to figure out what might persuade them.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, you got to bring some people in the room that are like, forget about Tony Blinken. Like, I don't know who Dan Quayle is. I don't even know what you're talking about. I've never heard of Jake Tapper. Like, if you've heard of Jake Tapper, get him out of the room. Room, right.

[Ryan Seacrest]

No, I. I talked to. I did a focus group with a bunch of young people in Orange county before the midterms in 22, and it was right after Dobbs. And one young woman was like, she was outraged by Dobbs, and she was outraged about the Supreme Court, and she couldn't believe it. Oh. And then. So she finishes her. Her whole tirade about this and. And I'm like, so, are you registered to vote in the midterms? And she said, what's a midterm?

[Tim Miller]

Right?

[Ryan Seacrest]

What's a midterm? And I was like, okay, well, there we are upset about Dobbs. We like the sentiment there. Don't know if you register or not. Don't know what a midterm is. So we got some work to do.

[Tim Miller]

Hey, guys, if you listen to this podcast, you care about what's going on in the world. And we're doing our best here at the Bulwark as we grow to expand out. Reporting, reported commentary, no bullshit insight. But, like, all of this stuff is based on people doing shoe leather reporting, people going out there and gathering sources and going around the world and educating us about what's happening in the world. And one of the places that's out there still doing that is the Washington Post. And this podcast is sponsored by the Washington Post. When you go to washingtonpost.com the Bulwark our listeners can get an exclusive deal to subscribe for just $0.50 per week for your first year. If you listen to us, you know the great work the Washington Post does on a bunch of topics. We got Katherine Rampel that comes on. We got Carol Lennig discovering the Secret Service. Probably the best reporter on the beat out there at the Secret Service across the board, my man Josh Jassy doing politics. Also, if you're in a rush and need to catch up quickly on the day's most important and interesting stories, the Post the seven newsletter is a quick commute read sent each weekday morning. The Post even offers a cool feature for audio lovers like you. You can actually listen to articles in addition to reading them, so you can tackle your to do list and catch up on the news at the same time. Now more than ever, it's important to stay up to date on the world. So go to washingtonpost.com the bulwark to subscribe for just 50 cents per week for your first year. That's 80% off their typical offer. So this is truly a steal. Once again, that's washingtonpost.com the Bulwark to subscribe for just 50 cents per week for your first year. Here's another concern I have about the low info ecosystem, particularly on the left, that some of the folks are getting radicalized in a way that I find concerning. I would as a former Republican. So, you know, maybe some libs can dismiss my views. But you're a Democrat in good standing so I want to talk to you about this. I had a friend that texted me and get a good ishstanding. I had a friend texting me and I don't know why. They were on the Pod Save America Reddit page. I don't know if you are ever.

[Ryan Seacrest]

But I am not.

[Tim Miller]

Apparently it was in shambles over your lack of support for vigilante assassinations. Another person messaged me about how your you, Jon Favreau, your Twitter replies are filled with people outrage that you twittered a tweet about how the Democrats might want to moderate on immigration. I'm wondering what your sense is of the extent right now of the backlash on the left and whether some of the lessons might be to move into a place that's a little concerning.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Oh really? This might make me cry, actually.

[Tim Miller]

Great.

[Ryan Seacrest]

So I really thought a lot about the Luigi Mangione assassination thing and it really bothered me. And I was trying to figure out why it really bothered me.

[Tim Miller]

And the assassination bothered you or the response?

[Ryan Seacrest]

The response because I am, I am someone who got into health, got into politics 20 years ago because of health care. It's like it's the issue I'm most passionate about. And I obviously worked for Barack Obama, went through the whole Affordable Care act debate. I also think that insurance companies are awful. I would like something, if not Medicare for all close to it. I like Pete Buttigieg's plan in 2020 about Medicare for all who want it, where you can, you know, choose Medicare. So I believe in all that. And then when I saw people who are like excusing or glorifying or celebrating vigilante justice, vigilante violence, extrajudicial killings, I was just like, what? At first I didn't believe that it was I was like, oh, it's probably like a few Twitter people. And then it just like it grew. And then, I mean, you mentioned the paths of America Reddit There were some people on our subscribers, on our discord who were like angry with me for my takes on this, which again, my centrist, my super centrist take is vigilante murder, bad. Insurance companies, also bad. So that's my, that's my crazy take. And people were not happy with me. But I, so I jumped into this, the, into our discord and talk to our subscribers for a couple hours on Sunday.

[Tim Miller]

Because like you said this past Sunday.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yeah, because like you said, this is the kind of person I just, I just go right in there and I didn't yell at anyone. We had a good time and by the end everyone was like, of course we don't want this, of course we don't excuse this murder. But you're not understanding like the rage that's out there. And they were mad that I, they think I called it performative at some point. And what I was calling performative was not people's rage towards the insurance industry at all or their anger towards the healthcare system. What I thought was performative was people like, you know, Taylor Lorenz, who's supposed to be a journalist, you know, posting memes CEO down and you know, she's got a headline why we want executives dead. I'm like, okay, that you, you're supposed to be in a position of responsibility that I don't think that's, I don't think that's really wise. And I think that part of this is about trying to draw attention to yourself. Right? But someone out there who has been denied by an insurance company and has watched a loved one die or suffer or has faced bankruptcy, like I get why they're mad, but my concern, and I'm sure it's your concern too, is starting to excuse this or starting to think that maybe the political system is so broken and we're never going to get health care reform, we're never going to fix this. That you can understand why people would do this. That leads us down a path I think, where the alternative to the right wing authoritarianism that we are fighting right now is left wing authoritarianism, where it's not about trying to persuade people or trying to make democracy work. As broken as democracy is, it is about just, you know, force. It's about might makes right. And, and we can use force to do what we want. And if we believe something, it doesn't, and we believe it so strongly, it doesn't matter if someone else doesn't believe. It doesn't matter if someone, if it's complicated, if the issue is complicated, you Know, we need to be right and we need to be right at any cost. And so it doesn't matter what we do, because, you know, that's just. It's more. The belief and the ideology is more important than actually bringing people along. And like, look, I get. I get the impulse, I get the frustration, but that path has never worked. That path has never worked. It doesn't lead to a good place. Like, when you start. Start excusing political violence, that means that other people with political views that are very different than yours will also start excusing political violence, and they'll be able to start committing political violence, too. And then we have violence. Everyone's like, well, America's a violent country. I'm like, yeah, America is a violent country. We don't need to make it more violent. That's not the answer.

[Tim Miller]

One exception. I mean, Bill Ayers puppet Barack Obama did get into the presidency. So maybe it has worked. One time.

[Ryan Seacrest]

I was. And then I used the civil rights movement as an example, and people were like, what are you talking about? The civil rights movement was incredibly violent. Like, the state used violence against the activists and the protesters and civil rights movement. I'm like, yeah, I know, of course. And you know what John Lewis did as he was getting his fucking head beat in on the. On the Edmund Pettus Bridge? He just sat there because he knew, and Martin Luther King knew that nonviolence, which takes incredible discipline, also has the power to persuade people to say, oh, my gosh, these civil rights protesters, they are just like the state. They are getting beaten to within an inch of their lives and this is awful. Blah, blah. And then suddenly the tide of opinion changes and you pass the Civil Rights act, and you pass the Voting Rights act, and does it fix everything? Absolutely not. Is the system still fucked? Yes, but, like, that's how change actually happens in this country. That's how progress happens. And the nonviolence of that movement, that was the heart of the civil rights movement, was a strategy. It wasn't. It didn't just happen. It was a strategy. It took discipline. It took like, you know, responding to beatings and violence with peaceful protests is really fucking hard. And it took a long time, but it's a lot better than descending into civil war.

[Tim Miller]

I'm going to be a little less generous to your critics than you are, because there's a poll that came out recently about approval of Luigi's actions in this murder assassination. And if you break it down by age.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Oh, yeah, yeah.

[Tim Miller]

It's just reverse. Like, it's Just reverse. Like the oldest, it has the lowest approval among the elderly, you know, slightly more but not really very much among Gen X, slightly more concerningly slightly more but still not very high among our people, the millennials. And then well not Tommy, he's Gen X.

[Ryan Seacrest]

And then that's awesome.

[Tim Miller]

A big amount of support, like a third to 40% depending on the poll among Gen Z. And so the people that have the like the least actual exposure to the healthcare system are the ones if you're.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Under 26 you can be on your parents health insurance thanks to the Affordable Care Act. Yes, that's right.

[Tim Miller]

Right. They're the ones with the most righteous rage that just doesn't fucking square for me. I know that there are people under 26 or under 30 that have had horrible experiences with the healthcare with, through their parents or through themselves or their friends. Certainly some, but like just the math doesn't work. I get scale. If like if the healthcare system is so horrible and oppressive and where it's such a horrendous state that vigilante assassinations are necessary, then you would think that the people that have had to experience their the trauma of that for the longest and the most acutely, the people that have the most health problems, old people would share the view, right? Like so like to me it seems like there is at least some bandwagon effect. Maybe there's some genuine rage among Gen Z, but then there's a bandwagon effect that is very real and alarming.

[Ryan Seacrest]

A few things, one, I, you know, I look, I saw those polls and first it could be the polling, right? Like sometimes people give trollish responses to pollsters and like so you could have a polling issue there, right? And it's a subsample.

[Tim Miller]

NZ is most likely to be troll, right?

[Ryan Seacrest]

Well it's like you got a, you got an Emerson poll and it's a subsample of, of how many voters in an EMERSON Poll that's 18 to 29. So like whatever. But what is different about Gen Z from all the other generations in that poll which is those older generations, like they remember domestic disorder and chaos and even violence in this country and elsewhere, right? Like they lived through the oldest, lived through World War II, then there was the Cold War, then there was, you know, the civil rights movement in this country, right in the late 60s and the 70s. So like older people, like they know, they know what violence can do, they know what chaos can do. I think the younger folks, they're also like social media and their phones is a big part of this. And first of all, that generation is they are struggling with affordability and costs in a way that makes them feel a lot of despair. Right? When you layer onto that, that that everything they see on their phones is outrage. Taking to an 11, everything's at an 11 all the time. It's doom. It's climate existentialism, right? Like, we're not going to have a planet anymore, we shouldn't have kids. And like, this is, this is what's showing up in people's feeds over and over and over again. And I think that puts you in a place of nihilism, where you think it, you know, whatever problem there is in your life, it's magnified by what you see on your phone. And then you think, okay, well, I have this problem. And also, everything seems dark, everything seems terrible. We're all doomed. The apocalypse is coming. So some insurance executive gets killed, who the fuck cares? I think that's the sentiment.

[Tim Miller]

Okay, one more thing on this for you. It relates back to Elon. And this is something I really struggle with as the norms Loving never Trumper is. I think one thing that is objectively true is that the Democrats cannot continue to be the party of the status quo. It's like we have to protect these institutions. We've got to save and defend them. This hurts me because I think the institutions are working pretty good. They're not perfect, they're pretty good. I still have my small C conservative inside me somewhere, which is like, maybe we should just keep the good stuff and not rock the boat too much, because what comes next might be worse. And yet I recognize that politically that's not very potent right now, to say the least. So how can the Democrats regain this mantle of challenging the status quo, of being rebellious, without becoming the party of vigilante assassination?

[Ryan Seacrest]

I mean, we ran a campaign like this in 2008 that worked really well. People look back on it as hope and change and all that. But there was a, a huge reform element to the way that Obama talked his agenda. We talked about lobbyist money, corporate PAC money. We talked about fixing Washington, Washington being broken. And I think that we can be a party that wants to reform and fix a broken system as opposed to the other party that seems intent on tearing the system down and then, you know, know, presiding over the ashes and. Because I don't think that's going to work for anyone. Like it's going to feel good to just destroy the whole system. Maybe that's what you want, but in its place, you're not going to get Anything. You're just going to get a bunch of people who are going to make themselves rich and, and do a bunch of corruption.

[Tim Miller]

Get some cool coins.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Get some cool coins. Yeah. And it's, maybe it'll be, it's going to be fun for people like Elon to watch the whole thing. Right. Maybe it's going to be entertaining for you. It's going to be entertaining for them. Certainly they're going to get rich, which you're going to be pretty fucked. So I think the alternative is like just acknowledging what is broken about the system and pledging to fight relentlessly to fix it and to reform it. And this is what I think we have to do. And I think we've, you know, walked away from that at times. Like we have not had the last four years. The message was not the system is broken and we're doing everything we can to fix it. That was just, that was not the message of the Biden administration. It wasn't the message of the 2020 primary really, except for like Bernie and Warren and people like that. But that's not, it wasn't focused on the system and it wasn't focused on like, okay, how do we reform this so that it actually works for everyone?

[Tim Miller]

Speaking of Joe Biden, the Wall Street Journal had a story yesterday talking about how they were managing his age inside the administration. Early in the administration there was a directive that meetings should be short. They tried to make them later in the day. The Democratic chairman of the Armed Services Committee, Adam Smith, said he never got Biden on the phone one time. Said he talked to several times when he was a much less senior congressman. Jim Himes said the same. So these are Democrats on the record. Cabinet meetings were tightly scripted and barely happened. Donors noticed a decline on calls. Staff wouldn't show him bad news. I guess we're showing him clips. That was only good news according to the story. I'm mad about this. I was thinking this morning, when I think about the biggest political fuck ups of my life, non Donald Trump category. I was really thinking about this and I decided that George W. Going into Iraq was the 1, 2 and 3. It has the entire podium on the biggest fuck ups of my life. Mitch McConnell not convicting Donald Trump in January of 2021 was number four. And Biden's selfish behavior this year is number five or number three, depending on how you want to count it. I think it was just absolutely catastrophic and I'm pretty enraged by it. I'm wondering what you thought reading the Wall Street Journal story.

[Ryan Seacrest]

I Completely agree with your ranking. I'm actually. I'm glad that you, you know, put Iraq and McConnell first. That was that, you know, you did some thinking there. I'm glad I didn't just fire off. Yeah, of course. It was the worst of my lifetime, because I might have. I'm so mad that I might have.

[Tim Miller]

You might have put a number one. I went through every administration in my mind. I was like, I didn't really count. I was eight for. I was six for Reagan when he raised out. So I was like, hw. Yeah, Clinton. It's like, Monica, no, this is worse than H.W. obama. I was like.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Like, this is right after. Right after Bush and McConnell. The key in that piece, too. Everyone knows how I. How I feel about Joe Biden at this point. I've been very open about that and his decisions over the last several years. The. The key line in that piece to me was this. Oh, he has some good days and bad days. And I do think that the good day, bad day thing is why there was no moment where everyone was like, he's got to step down. He can't run again. Because every time he would. Would freak people out close to him that dealt with him all the time. Then the next time they see him, he would be fine. And then they would tell themselves, okay, well, it's okay. You know, we should just. We should just keep moving forward. But the people. Look, there's a lot of people in the White House, a lot of people in the administration. The vast majority of them did not have a lot of contact with Joe Biden. You got to remember, too, even the first two years of his administration, like, they were all working. A lot of them were working remotely. They weren't even in the White House because of COVID But the small circle, and the piece talks about this, the small circle of people around Joe Biden that did not push him and were not honest with him about how he was diminishing, about how he was making a selfish decision about how he should have. Look what the polling says. Look what the bad news says. That's who I'm most angry at, really. When you are the president, you are sort of ensconced in this little bubble, and you do rely on, like, your advisors to tell you the truth about you, the truth about what the country thinks about you, what's going on out there. And those people did not do that. They just didn't do it. And now we're all gonna. Now we have Trump again.

[Tim Miller]

I sat and thought about this, too. Their Advisors this morning for a little bit. And I was like, I thought about myself. I put myself in their shoes. It's hard to put myself in the shoes of people like were with them for 30 years. I never had that type of relationship. But there was a second, second layer of people, too. And I was like, I probably would have, you know, tried to position him as best as possible up until that debate. I probably would have done the same things up until that debate. I think I probably would have been wrong to do it, but I think I probably would have. But there's no way that. And I can say this because I did it in 2012. I went out and I said to boss, I was like, no, I'm not going to go out and do this. I was like, I would not have gone out and spun. Like, oh, did you see the rally? The rally in Norfolk? Like, how vigorous he was. I wouldn't have done it. I wouldn't have done it. I would have quit. And nobody quit. Like, nobody quit. Nobody pushed him. Nobody forced it. Like, some of them spoke on background at the New York Times, I guess, was maybe the best thing he could do from that. And then to me, the grave sin of all this is that the thing that makes me the most upset, really, is that the selfishness continued. Continues to now, right now. It continues right now to December 20th, when he finally came to terms with the fact that he had to drop out. He needed to bring the vice president into the Oval or wherever they meet, to Delaware and be like, kid, you do what you need to fucking do, all right? You push the old guy onto the train. Like, we gotta save this country. You do what you need to do. That's what he needed to do. And he did the opposite. Like, the whole year, he was like, they were whining to people that Kamala wasn't giving him enough credit. And like, now, after the election, he seems, they've been nicer to Trump than they've been to Kamala in the post election.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Fundamentally, I don't think he gets it. And I just saw his interview with Midas Touch. She sat down with that. The podcast, Midas Touch on the big podcast on the left. It was a tough interview, but it was also like, even if you get past the performance in the interview or did he do whatever. Just his message is like, nothing has changed. Right? Which is just in his mind, I did some good things and I wanted to have America be more respected in the world. Check, really. I wanted to unite the country.

[Tim Miller]

He gave himself a check on uniting.

[Ryan Seacrest]

The country, unite the country. I wanted to just give, Give, you know, working people an opportunity, more opportunity check. And, and they've, They've, you know, convinced themselves that the chip sacked and the infrastructure bill, like, fixed the entire economy. And now there's, you know, it's just, it's wild to me. And like, I think that legislatively they did some really great things, but it's. Before the debate and it's, it's like there was a time early on in that administration where they were like, compare. They were already comparing him to fdr and they were like, we have learned the lessons of the Obama administration and we're not going to make those mistakes. We're going to make this, the stimulus, even bigger this time and we're going to sell it, unlike those guys. And, you know, they did all that. And the thing that really got me was after the midterms, they looked at the midterm results and they thought that those midterm results pointed to Joe Biden winning in 2024 because Democrats did better than expected.

[Tim Miller]

And the Democrats lost the House popular vote in the midterm, lost the House popular vote.

[Ryan Seacrest]

But because we hung on to a bunch of Senate seats, lost. The House also lost. You're right. But because we lost by less, it wasn't a red wave. Right. Because we lost by less. It must be because Joe Biden is such a popular president that the polls are wrong. And, and then we're going to run him again in 2024. And it is one thing for blue and on libs on Twitter to believe that, whatever, don't fault them for it because they don't have all the data. The people who have the data, who know, who know that a midterm electorate is nothing like a general electorate, they should have fucking known. And instead they took those results as like, no, no, no. These results prove that Joe Biden should run again. I mean, that to me was the, that was the original sense.

[Tim Miller]

Do you wish you would have ranted about it more earlier? Do you think that would have helped?

[Ryan Seacrest]

We were talking about this on our last Pod Save America yesterday. And it's like, you know, you go back and we would. The way that we would talk about it is no one is challenging him. You know, Lovett and I had a pretty tough conversation with Dean Phillips here.

[Tim Miller]

Yeah, I, I had an apology to Dean Phillips. I did. A public apology.

[Ryan Seacrest]

I did, too. And I saw him at the, I saw him at the convention. But, you know, my, my, my point to Dean Phillips was like, your diagnosis of the problem is correct. I do not think that you are the solution, because I just don't think that would have worked either, either. But like I said to Dean, I'm like, I share your concerns about his age, but, like, look around. No one else is stepping up his advice. And it's Joe Biden's decision to make. We can blame a whole bunch of other people. And I do blame, like, the, again, the close, close advisors. But, like, at the end of the day, Joe Biden had a decision to make. He's the president, United States. He has free will. He has agency. He could have decided not to run. He chose to run. That's. That's. That's it.

[Tim Miller]

You're right. The message and that Midas Touch interview was just like, again, I think that's maybe the frustrating thing. It's like, I just. I think I cared more. I think I believed it, like, more the democracy stuff than he actually believed it. I think that he cared more about his legacy than that. And that's very disappointing. And I think.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Well, you know what? You know what was most revealing was during that George Stephanopoulos interview after the terrible debate when Stephanopoulos was like, well, if you don't drop out and you run and you lose, like, how are you gonna feel if Donald Trump wins again? He's gonna say. And Biden said, I'll feel like I did my. My goodest. I did my best.

[Tim Miller]

Oh, yeah.

[Ryan Seacrest]

And I'm like, when he said that, I was like, oh, really? That's not. You did your best?

[Tim Miller]

Oh, brother. Favreau. Yeah, it's tough. And then people are like, well, I don't, you know, I get it. So we're like, I don't want to hear about this. I don't want to talk about this. But I'm like, I'm still, you know, probably when I'm 80 years old, I'm still going to be talking about all three of the things on the. On the list there.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yep.

[Tim Miller]

You know, like, Iraq was quite a while ago as well. But it still comes up from time to time, the Mitch McConnell thing. I mean, if I see Josh Holmes at 75, walking down the street, I'm going to be pointing my bony little finger in his chest being like, you did this. So, you know, that's just me. Maybe that's not. Some people move on. That's just me. All right, I've set you up for the crying now.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Okay?

[Tim Miller]

You're emotional. You're Mad Joe Biden. You're thinking about the health care Murder. When you started keeping it 1600, Barack Obama was still president.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yeah.

[Tim Miller]

So that was a while ago. How you feeling about all this? You know, like, you know how if George Stephan Hoffa's as Joe Biden, how would you feel at the end of it election? How do you, how did you feel? How do you feel about doing all this every day?

[Ryan Seacrest]

I feel, feel pretty bad. Pretty bad. No, I really did do some thinking because this wasn't a surprise. Right. Not that I expected Donald Trump to win, but, but because we all knew that it was a very real possibility. I, I genuinely believe this was a coin toss. I had an opportunity to really think about the reaction and what my reaction would be and how I would feel. And I'm an Obama person through and through. And so I will always be hopeful, but I am much less hopeful than I was when I started that campaign or when I left the White House or even when I started keeping it 1600. And that is a hard thing to wrestle with the state of the world right now. But it's sort of like, you know what I was saying to you before, the only way I can see through this is to take everything one day at a time and to believe that we still have the capacity to change, change our minds, change the way we behave, change the country. And that is, it's very possible. That's just not true. But deciding it's not true now, like, sends us into this nihilistic place, which I can't go to.

[Tim Miller]

There's no appeal to that for you.

[Ryan Seacrest]

There's no appeal to that for me. I, I, I, like, look, I have, I think since I was a child, I've always been like the, I've tried to be the diplomat and the, and the peacemaker. I was like that in my family. It's probably why I worked for Barack Obama. Being a speechwriter requires a lot of diplomacy and a lot of bring it. This person wants this edit, this wants the other edit. How are people going to think about the speech? How's it going to land with this group and that group? So like, that's just like, it's in my DNA. And if I give that up, I don't know what I have, man. I don't have much else. It's been like, it's been like a guiding principle of my entire life and career. And I feel like, I don't know, I feel like the, the idea of America is this will sound extremely cheesy, but, like, I think it's worth, it's still worth fighting for. And it is an idea. It's an idea.

[Tim Miller]

Sure. You haven't had a moment of doubt in the last month that the American idea is an American idea worth fighting for.

[Ryan Seacrest]

I mean, look, the founders, you know, we're all created equal, right? The, the, the, the idea that everyone is created equal, that everyone deserves life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, like, it sounds cheesy. Whatever. It is a radical idea. It is a radical idea. And one of the reasons it's a radical idea is because the people who wrote it had slaves. And so like, so right off the bat, bat, we didn't start off too well in this country. We had this, like, we had this great ideal, and it was not matched in practice in any way. And throughout our history, we have up time and time and time again, but there are also times when we have moved forward and made progress. It has happened over and over and over again. And the idea that this founding principle is still the best way to organize society and organize a country. Country, which I do believe I, I still think it's worth fighting for. I still think that you can change people's minds. I do.

[Tim Miller]

Are your hopes not capped, though? Here you say okay, sure, yeah, sir. I still have hope. I still have hope things are better. But, like, is it. Is there not something fundamentally changed about your. Like, do you feel like you've lost some of your capacity for it?

[Ryan Seacrest]

We just baptized my, my one year old. Our one year old Teddy. We got really lucky. The person who baptized Teddy is a guy by the name of Father Greg Boyle. Runs homeboy Industries here in Los Angeles. And Jesuit. A great Jesuit. It's a rehabilitation program for former gang members and people who are incarcerated.

[Tim Miller]

I forgot we have that in common. You're a Jebby too?

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yeah, I'm a Jesuit. And so is, so is Father Greg. So is the Pope now. Right? We got a Jesuit Pope. Great. And. And Father Greg, who by the way, is a huge Bulwark fan afterwards that we were talking and he said he's a big Bulwark fan.

[Tim Miller]

So, yeah, what's up, Father Greg?

[Ryan Seacrest]

But the saying that he loves is we are more than the worst thing we've ever done. And that is a deep belief in the possibility of redemption, of change, of grace, of being able to, like, we all have the capacity for good and the capacity for evil. I do believe that. And so I think there are evil acts, but like, like, you know, people can always have their minds changed. And some people might never have their minds changed. You're going to get your Donald Trumps you're going to get your Elon musks, right? That's humanity. But I also think it is entirely possible to go out there and talk to people and change their minds. And by the way, that is the only option. To me, it's just. There's just two choices, right? There's giving up or there's trying. And trying might lead you to failure. And. And if you ask me to predict is it more likely to lead to failure in this political environment in our country right now, I would say yes, for sure. But, like, what does that prediction matter at this point? It doesn't matter. What matters is whether you decide to try or not try. That's all that matters. It doesn't matter what you think's gonna happen or what you predict. All that matters is what you're doing right now.

[Tim Miller]

A more favreauish, hopeful podcast host would end on grace. That'd be a good place to end. But I wanna take one more pass at you about trying to. I wanna try to rip this hope from your soul one more time before we go to Christmas.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Okay, cool. Cool.

[Tim Miller]

Teddy?

[Ryan Seacrest]

I'm good.

[Tim Miller]

It's just something I just thought about for the first time this week. Teddy, when he goes to school in, like, five years. And they have the. On the wall, they have the picture of the presidents. Donald Trump's going to be on there two times.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yeah. Yeah, he is.

[Tim Miller]

Two times. He's going to look up there and it's going to be like, look at this. Look at this great list of white men who fought for everybody's right, for every. For liberty and pursuit of happiness, equality. These great people that you're supposed to aspire to. And the worst person in the country, like, really, America's worst human. Only two of the last three.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yeah. And you know what I'm going to say? I'm going to say that is America. And this other guy in between there, Barack Obama, he's America, too. And John Lewis is America, and so is George Wallace. And we are a. We contain multitudes. And this is a country that has never lived up to the ideals of its founding that are still worth fighting for. And there is pain in this country, and there is misery and suffering and evil, and there is also good and kindness and compassion, and that is the country we are in. And by the way, you have a say in what happens, because we have agency. And no matter how dark it gets, we have agency. And so that's what I want to teach my kids.

[Tim Miller]

That's the best you can go. You're a good dad. Seriously. I was coping, though, in unseriousness to get you to downgrade America in the Obama spirit. To like, we're just. Belgians think that Belgian is. Belgium is great too. Malaysians think Malaysia is great too. We're just not actually that special. I was trying to get you to downgrade us and kind of, you know, in the spirit of what from whence you came. But. But no, you're still feeling the American exceptionalism in. In there.

[Ryan Seacrest]

The exceptionalism, I feel, is. Is more for the ideals than it is for the country itself. And I think that those ideals are. Should be universal. Right. In other countries as well. Treat your neighbor like you want to treat yourself is like a. A precept of almost every single religion through human history. Can't be a coincidence that they all came around to that one. And so I think that these are like universal principles that aren' America. That's about, like, how we organize the world. And so that's what. That's what keeps me going.

[Tim Miller]

What are you and Teddy doing for Christmas?

[Ryan Seacrest]

We're here. We're here in Los Angeles. Charlie, Teddy, Emily. Emily's parents are in town. They're staying with us. My parents live here, so my brother lives here. So we're all gonna do Christmas at the Favreau's.

[Tim Miller]

A Favreau family Christmas.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yeah. Where are you going? You're going to.

[Tim Miller]

I'm going to Vail. I'm going skiing. I'm going to be off. It's going to be offline with Tim Miller.

[Ryan Seacrest]

That's great.

[Tim Miller]

We'll see.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Are you. I was going to say. You're not going to be. You're like. You're as bad as we. You're the only. Of all the people at Pod Save America, Baller. All the people we talk to, you and I, we're the most online. We are the most online.

[Tim Miller]

How many times has somebody sent you a text and was like, hey, have you seen this? Where? You haven't seen it?

[Ryan Seacrest]

Never.

[Tim Miller]

Never, never. I appreciate all of you. All my friends out there, they're like, ooh, have you seen this story? Yes. Have you seen this? Yes, I've fucking seen it. Okay, I'm online. All right, I'm.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Pfeiffer is close. Pfeiffer is close as us, but even he's been sort of falling off in recent weeks. So it's really me and you.

[Tim Miller]

I'm tell you this, this is what I'm. And this is a step up for me. I'm not going to Bring it onto the mountain.

[Ryan Seacrest]

That's good.

[Tim Miller]

How about that? Like, I'm not, like, at lunch when I'm skiing. I'm not going to be on Twitter. So that's it. I still will probably be tweeting on Christmas night after I've had a few drinks.

[Ryan Seacrest]

But we're looking for progress there. We're not looking for big swings, just progress.

[Tim Miller]

All right, Jon Favreau, thank you so much for a good show, a long show, kind of a meaty show for everybody. Since I'm gone next week, people needed every single second of of this, and I hope they enjoyed it. Everybody else, you have a merry Christmas. We'll see you back here Monday. What will it be? Monday, December 29th. Because of the Bulwark, we work, you know, okay, this is America. We work here. We have the good old fashioned Republican work ethic. John Favreau will be back for you with Podcast of America. I don't know, what, February 14th or something after a little French January 6th, we're back January 2nd.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Big celebration. Yeah, it will be wild. Bye, Tim.

[Tim Miller]

We'll see you all later.

[Jon Favreau]

If we make it through December Everything's gonna be all right I know it's the coldest time of winter and I shiver when I see the falling snow no, if we make it through December Got plans to be in a warmer town Come summertime maybe even California if we make it through December we'll be fine Got laid off at the factory Their timing's not the greatest in the world Heaven knows I've been working hard Wanted Christmas to be right for my girl I don't mean to hate to see December it's meant to be the happy time of year and my little girl don't understand why we can't afford no Christmas here if we make it through December Everything's gonna be all right I know it's the coldest time of winter and I shiver when I see the fallen snow if we make it through December Got plans to be in a warmer town Come summertime maybe even California if we make it through December we'll be fine maybe even California California if we make it through December we'll.

[Tim Miller]

Be fine the Bulwark podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown. Lights are going up Snow is falling.

[Jon Favreau]

Down There's a feeling of goodwill around town it could only mean One thing.

[Tim Miller]

McRib is here people throwing parties Ugly sweaters everywhere Stockings hung up by the.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Chimney with care it could only mean one thing McRib is here at participating.

[Unknown]

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