The Bulwark Podcast - Episode: Jonathan Chait: A Scary Clown
Release Date: November 27, 2024
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Jonathan Chait, Staff Writer at The Atlantic

Introduction and Overview

In this engaging episode of The Bulwark Podcast, host Tim Miller welcomes Jonathan Chait, a seasoned political writer from The Atlantic. The discussion delves deep into the current political landscape, focusing on Democratic strategies, the challenges faced by Kamala Harris’s campaign, and a critical examination of Pete Hegseth’s suitability for the role of Secretary of Defense.

Democratic Campaign Strategies and Challenges

Shift in Public Sentiment

Tim Miller initiates the conversation by addressing the Democratic campaign's recent performance metrics. He references the Harris campaign leadership team's interview with Dan Pfeiffer from Positive America, highlighting a significant shift in public sentiment:

• Tim Miller [01:19]: "The numbers he gave was that the country shifted 8 points to the right. He called it negative 8 points in non-battleground states and negative 3 points in swing states."

Jonathan Chait responds by contextualizing the Democratic defeat as part of a broader global trend where incumbent parties facing economic challenges, such as inflation, have become unpopular:

• Jonathan Chait [02:30]: "Global inflation made every incumbent party super unpopular across the world, including every incumbent party that stood for reelection in a democracy, lost."

Kamala Harris’s Campaign Approach

The discussion turns to Kamala Harris’s inability to sufficiently distance herself from Joe Biden’s presidency, which Chait argues hindered her campaign:

• Jonathan Chait [04:25]: "She also never convincingly repudiated her left wing stances from 2019. So she stopped talking about the stuff she was talking about four years before."

Tim Miller underscores the Democrats' struggle with authentic messaging, exacerbated by internal party pressures:

• Tim Miller [08:49]: "The Democratic candidates ... are very forced to be more cautious because they're worried about backlash from within their own coalition."

Analyzing Republican Strategy and Success

The 2012 Autopsy and Republican Adaptation

Tim Miller brings up Chait’s 2012 article analyzing Republican failures and their subsequent success without altering core policies. Chait explains that while Republicans did not fundamentally change their economic policies, the messaging under Donald Trump—particularly distancing from figures like Paul Ryan—played a crucial role:

• Jonathan Chait [17:51]: "Donald Trump attacked Paul Ryan for wanting to cut Medicare and Social Security and said, I'm not going to do that."

Populist Messaging Over Policy Change

Chait emphasizes that the Republican success was more about shifting the narrative and utilizing populist messaging rather than implementing new policies:

• Jonathan Chait [22:20]: "He really did understand to an extent that this was like why Mitt Romney lost. He was, you know, seen as having economic plans that were contrary to the interest of what most people wanted."

Pete Hegseth: A Critical Examination

Background and Controversial Views

The second half of the podcast focuses on Pete Hegseth, scrutinizing his qualifications and ideological stance for the position of Secretary of Defense. Chait outlines Hegseth’s extreme rhetoric and militaristic metaphors applied to domestic politics:

• Jonathan Chait [33:06]: "He has come to see the Democratic Party as an enemy... He constantly applies metaphors that are sometimes not even metaphors of military fighting to this domestic political struggle."

Dangerous Perspectives and Policy Proposals

Chait highlights Hegseth’s advocacy for aggressive policies, including disregard for military regulations and support for war crimes, raising alarms about his suitability:

• Jonathan Chait [35:13]: "He chillingly expresses some quick regrets about what happened to the Jews during the Crusades. He does not have any regrets about what happened to the Muslims during the Crusades."

Implications for National Security

The conversation underscores the potential dangers Hegseth poses to national security, envisioning a military under his command that lacks meritocracy and is driven by extremist ideology:

• Jonathan Chait [40:08]: "Pete Hegseth is begging Donald Trump to purge the military, commit war crimes, and use the military to crush any kind of domestic protest that embarrasses or discomforts Trump."

Chait’s Assessment of Hegseth’s Writings

Chait critiques Hegseth’s books, describing them as alarmingly conspiratorial and devoid of substantive policy proposals:

• Jonathan Chait [43:42]: "He used to be a neoconservative anti-Trumper, and there's almost like this struggle session he conducts in his book where he beats himself up for having been fooled by the elites into hating Donald Trump."

Path Forward for the Democrats

Strategic Moderation Without Surrender

Towards the end of the episode, Miller and Chait contemplate the Democrats' need to adopt moderation in their strategies without appearing to surrender key principles. They debate the challenges Democrats face in selecting candidates who can authentically connect with voters while navigating internal party pressures:

• Tim Miller [28:31]: "Fighting smart is not the same as surrender. Choosing winning political battles is not the same as surrender."

Policy Choices and Political Legitimacy

Chait discusses the delicate balance Democrats must maintain in enforcing policies without appearing overly punitive, using the example of sanctuary cities and immigration enforcement:

• Jonathan Chait [25:59]: "The federal government does have the right to enforce immigration laws. ... It should be the federal government, not the states and cities."

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Tim Miller wraps up the episode by reiterating the importance of authentic and strategic political messaging for Democrats to regain momentum and avoid internal conflicts that undermine campaign effectiveness. The conversation serves as a critical analysis of both Democratic vulnerabilities and Republican tactical shifts, offering listeners nuanced insights into the current political dynamics.

Notable Quotes

• Jonathan Chait [02:30]: "Global inflation made every incumbent party super unpopular across the world, including every incumbent party that stood for reelection in a democracy, lost."

• Tim Miller [08:49]: "The Democratic candidates ... are very forced to be more cautious because they're worried about backlash from within their own coalition."

• Jonathan Chait [33:06]: "He has come to see the Democratic Party as an enemy... He constantly applies metaphors that are sometimes not even metaphors of military fighting to this domestic political struggle."

• Jonathan Chait [35:13]: "He chillingly expresses some quick regrets about what happened to the Jews during the Crusades. He does not have any regrets about what happened to the Muslims during the Crusades."

• Jonathan Chait [40:08]: "Pete Hegseth is begging Donald Trump to purge the military, commit war crimes, and use the military to crush any kind of domestic protest that embarrasses or discomforts Trump."

Final Notes

This episode provides a comprehensive and critical examination of current political strategies, highlighting the challenges Democrats face in messaging and candidate selection while casting a spotlight on the concerning qualifications and ideologies of Pete Hegseth as a potential Secretary of Defense. Jonathan Chait's insights offer listeners a deep dive into the complexities of contemporary American politics, emphasizing the need for strategic adaptation and authentic leadership.