← The Bulwark Podcast
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- [00:00]
A
We, the people, in order to form a more perfect union. These words are more than just the opening of the Constitution. They're a reminder of who this country belongs to and what we can be at our best. They're also the cornerstone of MSNow. Whether it's breaking news, exclusive reporting, election coverage, or in depth analysis, Mississippi NOW keeps the people at the heart of everything they do. Home to the Rachel Maddow Show, Morning Joe, the briefing with Jen Psaki, and more. Voices you know and trust. Ms. Now is your source for news, opinion and the world. Their name is new, but you'll find the same commitment to justice, progress, and the truth you've relied on for decades. They'll continue to cover today's news, ask the tough questions, and explain how it impacts you. Same mission, new name, Ms. Now. Learn more at Ms. Now.
- [00:46]
B
Dude, this new bacon, egg and chicken biscuit from AM pm. Total winner, winner, chicken breakfast.
- [00:51]
A
Chicken breakfast?
- [00:52]
B
Come on. I think you mean chicken dinner, bro.
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A
Nah, brother. Crispy bacon, fluffy eggs, juicy chicken, and a buttery biscuit.
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B
That's the perfect breakfast. All right, let me try it.
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A
Okay.
- [01:03]
B
Yeah, totally. Winner, winner, chicken breakfast. I'm gonna have to keep this right here. Make sure every breakfast is a winner with the delicious new bacon, egg and chicken biscuit from am pm AM P. M. Too much?
- [01:15]
A
Good st. Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller. Delighted to welcome to the show author and journalist. He's chief Washington correspondent for ABC News. His latest book, Donald Trump and the Campaign that Changed America. He also is a co anchor of this Week with George Stephanopoulos. George is that. We're calling him Stephanopoulos. It's Jonathan Karl.
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B
Hey, how's it going, man?
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A
Do you have a nickname for George?
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B
No, no, just George. Just George.
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A
Just George for you. Just George. Did you give him a finger wag over that faux pa that cost. That cost you guys $17 million or whatever it was?
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B
I think it was a little less than that, but no.
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A
Okay.
- [02:08]
B
I stayed very far away from all that.
- [02:09]
A
From that. Yeah. That's probably smart. There's a bunch of book stuff I kind of want to do like a little bit of a potpourri of some of the random nuggets in there. But we got to do a little news first, particularly with regards to the Epstein files. We have this vote coming this week. I noticed you were on on GMA yesterday, I think it was. And offering a little bit of skepticism about, you know, like that this might be the big moment where the dam breaks and Donald Trump just says, okay, let's see it all. You know, warts and all. We'll show you everything. You noted the phrase in his bleat that they'll release everything that they're legally entitled to have. Ken Klippenstein noted that there's word unclassified in the discharge petition to cut his eye. Where do you think we're at? Like, what do you think the state of play is on this?
- [02:54]
B
I mean, there are multiple reasons to be totally skeptical of this. First of all, let's just remember the base fact that if Trump actually wanted to release the Epstein files, he could do it right now. He could have done it a month ago, he could have done it six months ago. He could have let Pam Bondi do what she promised. All those mag influencers.
- [03:13]
A
Yeah, the binder. I mean, technically, he already kind of started the release himself without a discharge petition with those binders. You remember that binder?
- [03:19]
B
Oh, yeah, those binders.
- [03:20]
A
DC Drano and all the big journalists. You weren't invited, I noticed, but a lot of the other key journalists got invited. Invited for that.
- [03:27]
B
I wasn't. I wasn't. That's one reason. But the other reason is, I mean, he's coming out and saying, oh, yeah, vote for it. After he has done everything in his power to prevent this vote from happening. I mean, obviously, the Boebert display in the, in the, in the Situation Room, obviously the phone calls. I mean, he actually made phone calls to Nancy Mace. Apparently she didn't take the call. And to Boebert, her attacks on Marjorie Taylor Greene. I mean, the House was out of session for seven weeks. I mean, why was it out of session if not to prevent the, the discharge petition from going through it? So now suddenly, 218 signatures on the, on the discharge petition, the thing is going to pass. It's going to pass with, you know, 40, 50, maybe 60, maybe 100 Republicans voting for it. And that would have been the one big act of defiance that we have seen in the second term from Republicans. And he said, well, you know, why don't you all vote for it? I mean, they were all gonna vote for it anyway. You know, I did point out that phrase legally permissible. That's kind of legalistic language for a Trump truth social, frankly. So, you know, it's the old ongoing investigation trick. You can't release anything that is subject to an ongoing investigation. It kind of reminds me, you remember the tax returns? Of course, he really wanted to release the tax returns. He really wanted to release them, but.
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A
That audit is that audit still going on?
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B
I mean, you gotta finish the aud, you know. You know, we keep my.
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A
Should check with Howard Nutlik about that. It feels like they should have bring a little more efficiency to the auditing program.
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B
I don't know, with all those, with all those Doge layoffs at irs, maybe they just don't have the personnel to do it. I don't know.
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A
I guess the question is, like, could there be another reason that he folded? Right. Or do we think that, like, they really have a sense that they're going to be able to control the release of this stuff anyway? And the initial plan here, let's just be honest, was like they were going to cherry pick stuff that was embarrassing for Democrats and start releasing that that was the plan. That's what Cash Patel and them wanted to do. And so maybe they go back to.
- [05:34]
B
Plan A. Yeah, I mean, he said Democrats were the ones that were friendly with Epstein. All of them. All of the Democrats. To be fair, when you think about it, back when Trump was really associating with Epstein, he effectively was a Democrat.
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A
Right.
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B
So, you know, he might have, he might have a point.
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A
Mark Epstein, you see that he's been out there now, the Jeffries brother, he's out on the trail. Have you chatted with him ever?
- [05:57]
B
No, I haven't. I haven't.
- [05:58]
A
Yeah, no, me neither. He's out there and saying that, well, first there's a thing going around the Internet about Bubba, and that seemed like an obvious joke, and we want to engage in that here with a serious journalist. But he's also out there saying today that, like, that he has a source. I don't know why you would have a source. You know, what filing center, whatever it's called in Winchester, they're already going through and scrubbing, you know, anything related to Trump out of there. I mean, I think that the questions will remain, I guess, is my point.
- [06:27]
B
Yeah, I mean, look, even if they suddenly released everything in the DOJ files, are people really going to believe what they see? I mean, this is kind of actually a fundamental issue. Not just trust with this Justice Department or this FBI, but just generally with any official sources, nobody believes anything. Yeah, you know, the, the, the, the war on truth that I know you were talking about, like, you know, almost a decade ago is like, it's been almost successfully, you know, won by, by those that were fighting the idea of truth.
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A
Yeah. It's funny, I was looking at something not really that funny, kind of dark funny. I was looking at something that Candace tweeted I'm just. I'm always right behind her in the podcast rankings. I like to monitor what the competitors are saying.
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B
She's number one in the world, right?
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A
I don't know if she's number one, but she's up there. She's a little ahead of me right now. And she wrote this. This was, I guess, a couple days ago. They lied about JFK, MLK, RFK, Matthew Crooks, Covid, Russia, collusion, 9, 11, the court, Iraq, Afghanistan, Ukraine, BLM. But the good news is she's being sarcastic that everything seems to be above board about the Charlie Kirk assassination, which is, like, the most open and shut case I've ever seen, as far as I can tell. I mean, the person admitted it via text message and told people that he did it. But anyway, that is just to your point, right? Like, how do you deal with something like that?
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B
No, no, nobody's gonna believe everything. And it's. It's across the board. I mean, I. You know, since the book came out, you know, I've got that cover picture obviously, of Trump at. At Butler. I mean, I can't tell you how many people believe that Butler didn't really happen, that it was staged, that it was, you know, I mean, ketchup. Oh, yeah. And then Elon Musk used the satellite Starlink. The wackiest of the 2020 conspiracy theories was the Italian spy satellites that were used to flip votes. I don't know why the Italians would.
- [08:14]
A
Do this, but, you know, I hear from real people, not on the Internet, like on the street. Uber drivers. It worries me, honestly, because it's like the inverse of 2016. Like, I remember we getting probably would have been a taxi back then, and, you know, the driver would be like, what do you do? I'm in politics. Oh, you know, who do you work for? Republicans. Oh, Obama was really born in Africa. Right. Like a trajectory that would happen often. And I'm getting the inverse now of, oh, wait, the election was really stolen. Right. And I'm like, I have to be like, no, I hate to disappoint people. It's important to sit with the fact that he won. Actually, it's an important thing for everybody to deal with. You mentioned that Nancy Mace didn't take his call. I'm sorry. I just don't want to lose that.
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B
Yeah. This is before the 218th halva signature was on. Trump made two phone calls that we know of. One was to Boebert. Boebert did apparently take the call. Nancy Mace, either she sent it to voicemail. Or didn't take it. But that conversation, the call happened, but the conversation.
- [09:10]
A
Maybe she thinks he's trans now with all the makeup, she's scared to talk to him. I don't know. Running for governor of South Carolina, you think you would take Donald Trump's call. That's noteworthy.
- [09:22]
B
You know, I recently looked back. I did an interview with Nancy Mace back in the days when I had a podcast with Rick Klein. We interviewed her on January 6, before the attack on the Capitol, but in the morning of January 6th. And she sounded as rational and as level headed as you could possibly imagine, condemning her colleagues who were planning to vote against the certification of the election and talking about how dangerous that was.
- [09:49]
A
Maybe her and Marjorie Taylor agreed to do like a Freaky Friday.
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B
Has Marjorie flipped on the 2020 thing yet? I don't think so.
- [09:58]
A
On Epstein, since you're in the White House pool from time to time. In old days especially. Did you see yesterday after Trump was getting questioned on the plane by a Bloomberg reporter, a woman, if there's nothing incriminating in the files, why don't you release them? She's trying to get that out. And he looks at her and says, quiet, piggy. You see that?
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B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it ceases to, it actually ceases to even shock anymore.
- [10:26]
A
It is even on the news. Isn't that kind of strange though? How do you, I guess that's a real question. How do you deal with that? Like you're at abc and at some level I understand that this is dog bites man that the President of the United States calls a reporter piggy. And it's kind of ironic, actually. She's asking him about why he's covering up potentially his involvement in illicit behavior with women at some level, or at least sex, you know, we don't know exactly what. And he, and he looks at her and says, quiet piggy.
- [10:52]
B
You know, I mean, my approach, just my personal approach to this, when I've been the subject, he's never called me piggyback is. I think that I've lost track of what I'm supposed to be doing if I'm getting in a fight with him about what he's saying about me. So I ignore it. The one exception was the, was the other day when he suggested, when I asked him about Pam Bondi saying she was gonna prosecute hate speech. And Trump said, maybe she'll prosecute people. Like, maybe she'll go after people like you. And because you've been so unfair. And the idea that the President of the United States is suggesting that a reporter can be prosecuted because the President thinks that they've been unfair is a pretty. That's beyond a personal insult. That's actually talking about using the power of government in a way that gets to the heart of what the First Amendment's all about. I mean, I remember back in the. You know, back in the first term, there would be. Some of my colleagues would get up and take real. How dare you say that about my news organization? How dare you do. He wants to be in a fight with the reporters. He wants the world to see reporters as his opposition. I mean, that's why he calls the. Or used to call the press, the opposition party. If you can portray reporters as simply the same as Democrats, then everything that's reported, you can say, well, that's just, you know, not just fake news. It's.
- [12:17]
A
Can I spitball another strategy back at you besides fighting with them? That's kind of a fight. I don't know. Why hasn't he arrested you yet? Like, it feels to me like the Department of Justice is pretty weak. Like, why isn't Pan Bondi doing her job? That might be a question you might want to ask him. Like, I don't know why. I mean, you know, he's such a strong leader, and the press has been so tough on him, and he's made a lot of threats recently about a lot of people that should be indicted. But I haven't seen any. Any. Anybody arrested yet. I mean, maybe that might be something you should ask them.
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B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll take it under advisement.
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A
You're not. You're not. That's not something that sounds good to you.
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B
It's not.
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A
It's not. Haven't you arrested me yet? Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, I don't know. I mean, you call. You do call him. You say in the book, you call, you call, and he picks up. That's strange behavior. I mean, that's kind of weird behavior, though, I would think. I mean, I guess there's. You mentioned about how he does this with Biden. I thought he did this with Jeb. Right. Like, it's like you just say the nastiest thing imagina, and then he's chummy. So I guess it speaks to kind of the wwe nature of how he sees his job. But I don't know. I mean, that's. I guess. What do you make of that? The fact that he's trying to jail you on the one hand, and then he's chatting with you on the other?
- [13:33]
B
I mean, it is very strange in that time where he invoked the idea of the Justice Department prosecuting people like me. He in the very same answer to that question. I mean, because he does a little bit of the weave and then he starts talking about Washington, D.C. and he said that I should take my beautiful wife out to dinner tonight. You should take your beautiful wife out to dinner tonight. I was like, well, I mean, what if I'm on my way to the clink, you know? You know, the good news is, I guess because of the National Guard, I'll be safe at dinner. But the bad news is, you know, on the way home, I mean, who knows what could happen?
- [14:08]
A
Well, it's a pretty crazy world out there. You know, you got to sit here talking to Jonathan Karl, hearing about the now chief of staff to the White House, looking at battle plans or war maps that were stored in the then former president's bathroom in the Uday and Coussey suite in his club in Florida, and you start to think, boy, things are maybe a little out of my hands these days. It's hard to, I need to grab hold of something, you know, to ensure that I'm prepared for what might come. And one of the ways to do that is to get some good insurance. For over 40 years, SelectQuote has been one of the most trusted brokers in insurance, helping More than 2 million Americans secure over $700 billion in coverage. Their mission is simple, to find you the right insurance policy for your unique needs. Unlike one size fits all life insurance companies, Selectquote's licensed agents work for you. In as little as 15 minutes, they'll compare policies from top rated carriers to find you the best fit for your health and your budget. No medical exam, no problem. They partner with providers offering same day coverage up to $2 million without needing to visit your doctor. If you've got high blood pressure, diabetes or heart disease, Selectquote has partners with policies designed for many pre existing health conditions. So you get the protection you deserve, get the right life insurance for you for less and save more than 50%@SelectQuote.com Bulwark save more than 50% on term life insurance@SelectQuote.com Bulwark today to get started, that's SelectQuote.com Bulwark you see the conversation online about like, oh, why aren't the journalists treating Trump the same way? They talked about Biden's age. And there are like a million media criticism elements you can get to that that we can just set aside. We talked about Biden's age plenty here. You actually talk to him? I don't. Our listeners don't. Is he different from 2016? Do you feel him like? The phone call you write about in the book is very, is pretty strange to me where he is like kind of brow beating. It's the morning after the election and you call him to just congratulate him and he's like browbeating you about what you're congratulating him about. Seems like he seems angry. How would you assess what his private mental status is?
- [16:20]
B
I just started calling him during the last part of the election pretty regularly and again, that is entirely. I've never done that with a major party nominee weeks or days before the election, let alone the day after. I called him Sunday morning, Sunday before the Tuesday election and he had just watched me on Weekend Good Morning America. I don't even know if my wife had watched me on Weekend Good Morning America. He was rather upset about what I said and what I said was simply that even his own advisors are concerned that he is off message. You know, he's got a, they have a basic message which is effectively written version of Reagan's are you better off now than you were four years ago? Are you better off now than you were during my term? And instead he's talking about, know, shooting journalists or, or about what's his name, how he looks in the shower and you know, all this, all this stuff.
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A
Arnold Palmer and.
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B
Yeah, Arnold Palmer. Thank you, thank you. In Latrobe, Pennsylvania, I could never forget.
- [17:20]
A
Any discussion of Arnold Palmer's manhood.
- [17:24]
B
Yeah, no, that was, that was, that was a high point. And he just starts, you know, he says, I watch specifically to see. And you just can't do it, Jonathan. You just can't do. And I said, well, it's the weave, sir. It's a little bit of the weave. And he says the weave got me elected president. So he's like sitting there the Sunday before. He's got this mass. He's doing four, five events a day. It's a couple days out. And he is not only sitting there, you know, watching, and I'm sure he's watching the others as well. He's got the TiVo and you know, he's got his DVR and he's watching everything and then taking time to brow me over that. It showed me that at times the usual thing is to be nasty in front of the cameras and do the attacks and then, you know, to be like, ah, you know, take the calls and we'll talk nice. But sometimes he actually does rants privately as well. Is he different? First of all, I didn't do any of that in, in the first term. I never once called his cell phone. There were a couple times where you would do the trick of calling the White House switchboard and you could get through to him that way. But I. I went through channels, basically, you know.
- [18:26]
A
But you interviewed him.
- [18:27]
B
Yeah, No, I interviewed him. I talked to him. Yeah. No, no, no, no. I'm just saying that that was differently. I think it's kind of fruitless to speculate. People talked about his, you know, alleged mental decline a lot before he came to the White House. I mean, you know, 2016 and certainly while he was in the White House. Remember the, Remember that time when he had to walk down that, that ramp at a military event? I mean, he's. He's 79 years old. He doesn't really exercise. He likes to eat McDonald's. I mean, at some point the speculation will, you know, will be accurate, but he's actually been pretty vigorous, considering all that. He does a lot.
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A
He does a lot. He does way more than Biden. People don't like to hear that, but it's just, like, objectively true. And he's out there.
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B
He doesn't sleep either. It's weird. He doesn't sleep. I mean, you read the shit he does at 2 o' clock in the morning when he's on Truth Social.
- [19:19]
A
He seems a little addled, I guess. Forget the mental decline part. Just like reading the book. You're talking about how you do this call. You mentioned the one before the election, but then you call him again after.
- [19:27]
B
Yeah.
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A
And it's hard to tell. Like, is he fucking with you or is he actually mad the morning after he won this just unbelievably improbable election? Like, why is he browbeating you in a private phone call? Do you think? He's like. Because that speaks to what your motivations are. If you're mad.
- [19:43]
B
The next morning, I think that it wasn't so much that he was angry. I think that he wanted to rub my face in it. Because I just said, you know, Mr. President, I just wanted to say congratulations. And he said, on what? You tell me, Jonathan, on what? And he just wanted to hear me say it, you know, hear me say it. I compared it to that scene in Breaking Bad, you know, where Walter White, the Bryan Cranston character, says, say my name. Say my name. So I think it was as simple as that. And look, it's like you've just Won this massive victory against all the odds you had left the White House in disgrace, canceled, a pariah to corporate America, pariah to most of the leaders in your own party, impeached, indicted, all that stuff. And you managed to win it all and come back. You would think you could kind of bask in that, but it reminded me of 2016. He wins, and then the Saturday after his inauguration, he's complaining about people not giving him enough credit for the crowd size at his frickin inauguration. And I remember going to Sean Spicer, you remember him, and I'm like, what, what is it? Why does he like. I mean, he's President of the United States. Who, why does he care what somebody said in a panel on MSNBC about how many people turned out for his inauguration? He's in the White House now. And Sean said something, but I don't remember it because it didn't really answer the question.
- [21:16]
A
Who cares? Because the question answers itself. Right? It's like it's a sign of somebody that has. I was asking Tapper, obviously about this question about the mental decline versus and his line was that like Trump's at a different ward at the hospital, he's not necessarily in the memory ward, right. Like we don't need to be George Conway and identify the exact type of narcissistic personality disorder, but like it's his particular element of mental derangement that he cares about this stuff.
- [21:44]
B
You remember in the first term, when Mick Mulvaney became the acting chief of staff, he invited the White House staff to go to Camp David for a little retreat and he gave them a reading assignment, which was a book called A First Rate Madness. And A First Rate Madness is actually an interesting book. It makes the case that the best leaders in history have had a touch of mental illness. And some of the worst leaders have been perfectly sane. For instance, Abraham Lincoln, little manic depressive, mostly depressive. Churchill, according to this guy who is a guy from Tufts University Medical School, had a touch of mania. And the same Neville Chamberlain was a perfectly sane man. And when you're dealing with madness in the world, a little touch of creative madness helps out. But I thought it was just interesting because he's basically giving this book out to say, yeah, Trump may be nuts, but that's a good thing.
- [22:41]
A
Yeah, the foreign policy, they see that it's like the crazy, the unpredictability, you know, that like, they pitch that. Right, like the madman theory.
- [22:48]
B
The madman theory, right.
- [22:49]
A
Yeah, yeah. I say, I say that as self criticism a lot. And people, it sounds like it. It sounds, now I'm going to sound like Trump. This sounds like an egomaniacal thing to say, but I'm always like one of my big weaknesses, like in campaigns and a bunch of different stuff was like, I was too rational. Like, I would look at other people who were like, who are bosses who would make totally irrational demands on their staff. I like, I just, that's my makeup. But then I would watch and I'd be like one out of ten times it'd work. The totally irrational thing they would suggest would work. And I'd be like, see, I would have missed that one, y'. All. If you've been listening to me, you know, I just, I hate fallback. I hate the shorter days. I hate the darkness. I get sad, both in the literal sense and in the seasonal affective disorder sense. So if that's you or if you've got a friend who's in that boat, it might be time to check in with them. And if necessary, think about ways which you can get a little extra professional help from our friends at BetterHelp. BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. A short questionnaire helps identify your needs and preferences and their 12 plus years of experience and industry leading match fulfillment rate means they typically get it right the first time. But if you aren't happy with your match, switch to a different therapist at any time from their tailored wrecks. For me, luckily I got it right the first time. Back when I was needing some therapy, needing some middle aged man therapy, I landed on someone that had a lot of expertise and experience with folks that were dealing with the issues that I was dealing with. And that's great. Finding a therapist that's a good match for you is important. And if you're feeling a little extra blue during this time of year, turn to BetterHelp. Give it a shot this month. Don't wait to reach out. Whether you're checking in on a friend or reaching out to a therapist yourself, BetterHelp makes it easier to take that first step. Our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com thebullwork that's betterhelp.com thebullwork I want to do a couple more book things. I want to ask you just one more thing about present day. I felt like in the first term it wasn't like Reince was calling me all the time, but I was still much closer to Republican politics than I am now. You know, the only people that talk to Me now are actually the insane ones. All of my old friends hate me. And so it's hard for me to tell, but like, from the outside, like, there are fewer leaks, you know, that we have this time. We're not. We don't have the Javanka, you know, Javanka tried to save us from that one leaks happening. But like, it also, like the actual. The output seems great. Like, it's like even a bigger shit show, like a bigger mess. And I'm trying to, like, would you agree with that or, I don't know, how would you assess what's happening in there these days?
- [25:29]
B
On one hand, it is a much smoother running machine. Internally that Susie Wiles has a kind of a handle on how the staff functions, but there is nobody on that staff that is trying to keep him within the bounds of anything. So you have an administration that is moving at the whims of the President without any sort of process. I mean, I think that a couple of symbols of this. One is the White House counsel. The White House counsel was Don McGahn early on, and it was Pat Cipollone, and it repeatedly saw the job of the White House Counsel's office as to keep the actions of the executive within the bounds of the Constitution, within the bounds of the law. And I recount in the book a story of when they had that minerals agreement with Ukraine. This is a pretty major international agreement that was negotiated over time and, you know, involved the State Department, the Treasury Department, the National Security Council. And they're getting ready to. This is the day before Zelensky's to come, and somebody says, wait a minute, has White House counsel looked over this thing? And the answer was no. Dave Warrington hadn't even seen the thing. So J.D. vance, the vice president, just for people.
- [26:46]
A
Who don't know, just to emphasize your point, Dave Warrington is the White House counsel. This person barely exists.
- [26:52]
B
Yeah. I mean, would anybody know? Yeah, yeah. And J.D. vance says, well, why don't we have my wife have Usha take a look at it? So the second lady of the United States, who, by the way, is a distinguished lawyer, Yale law grad, all of that, but not involved in the White National Security Council or the White House Counsel or anything, comes in to take a look at the agreement. They don't even say, wait a minute, we can call Dave in now.
- [27:18]
A
I was taking Usha, gave it the green light.
- [27:19]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Believe it or not, she gave it the green light. Yeah, yeah.
- [27:22]
A
Sorry, kind of. I guess we would have heard that story. I think the second lady of the United States had been like, sorry, sorry, Mr. President, looks like what you're doing here is outside the bounds of the law. Farcical kind of to ask her in that way, not because she's not qualified. It's farcical to ask her because it's like, I mean, this is a rigged game that we're asking you to sign off on this. It's a good fact to know for future investigations.
- [27:45]
B
And you think about the so called reciprocal tariffs and the shaky legal ground and they may get knocked down by the Supreme Court. I mean, I imagine in a first term that might have gone through a more rigorous legal review rather than the thing where they just came out one day with like a chatgpt list of percentages of countries and how much we're going to tax penguins and all this kind of stuff. So, yeah, there is plenty of chaos. It's just a different kind of chaos and it's a more consequential chaos for the country than what you saw in the first term.
- [28:15]
A
You mentioned Suzy Wiles, another former boss of mine. You've mentioned a couple of my former bosses in this podcast so far. Sean Spine, Sir. Susie Wiles. How is Sean doing these days? You ever talk to him?
- [28:24]
B
You know, unfortunately, we've just kind of lost touch. I mean, I'm sure he's doing great stuff. He was doing ads for. What was that?
- [28:34]
A
Car shield, Lifelock. I don't know.
- [28:36]
B
Who cares?
- [28:37]
A
That's interesting. You think? I mean, Corey Lewandowski, other people managed to stick around that didn't have the survivor's instinct, I guess. Susie, did you have a thing in her book? Maybe. Had this been out there at all? No, no, no, it hadn't been out there at all because I had not seen this. Pretty shocking. It was related to the classified documents case. Why don't you just tell us?
- [28:57]
B
So I did a lot of reporting in this book, worked with one of my colleagues, Kathryn Falders, who has done just stellar work on the legal front. And we tried to kind of figure out what would have been in Jack Smith's final report if he had been allowed to release it. Because the classified documents case report was never released. It was buried. It's probably where the Ark of the Covenant is at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark. It's in that we'll probably never see it. But we learned that Susie Wiles talked to investigators and we learned of what she said. And she said that she should have been more active and more proactive in terms of getting Trump to return those documents that were requested back and that she really didn't like the way it was handled. She basically blamed the lawyers, not Donald Trump. But she said that she was not proud of how she acted, and it would have been very different if she had been more involved.
- [29:53]
A
He showed her a battle plan.
- [29:55]
B
Yes. And if you looked at the indictment, the indictment does make reference to a PAC official, a political action committee official being shown a battle plan. And the official, you know, Trump says, I really shouldn't be showing this to you. And what we learned is that that was Susie Wiles. That information is coming from Susie Wiles. I mean, because Trump's not admitting that. Right. So that information is coming from Susie.
- [30:23]
A
Wiles, chief of staff now and essentially admitting that he broke the law, or at least testifying that he was showing her this classified information that he shouldn't have had. Or maybe she would think he should maybe come up with some rationale. But on its face, I always thought it was. And no offense to Susie here, I always kind of assumed it was like a younger, hot staffer, that he was trying to show it up, because I remember that in the indictment, too impressed. Because I kind of was. Like, to me, there's the more corrupt theory, you know, which is that he was taking some documents that the. You know, something. Some MBs, selling them to the Russians or something. Or there was, to me, like, I always like the Occam's Razor, which is like, Trump likes trophies.
- [31:03]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [31:04]
A
And Trump, like, likes. And whatever. And it's like, he thought it was cool.
- [31:06]
B
Totally.
- [31:07]
A
To show. And I assumed it was like, I don't know, you know, a junior press aide who was 24 or something. It was interesting that he felt he wanted to show off to Susie.
- [31:15]
B
Another one of the details that we learned about the classified documents is that he was using some of them as scrap paper. So, like, in his. In his office desk, you know, how cool is that? You write a note to somebody and, like, it's on the. It's got that red class, top secret.
- [31:30]
A
You know, I mean, you could just buy a stamp that says that, I guess.
- [31:35]
B
But, I mean, this is real, man. This is real. See, this is why you're, you know, you're a podcaster and he's President of the United States.
- [31:41]
A
This is why I'm limiting. Yeah. Well, also, he's been indicted four times, I guess. Hey, y', all, we want to hear from you. What do you like of our offerings? I mean, besides me, of course. How do you watch or listen? Where are you tuning in from. In the show notes, you'll find a link to an audience survey we're conducting to help us get a better sense of who you are and get your feedback on our shows. We're cooking up some great plans for 2026, and this feedback is going to be invaluable. So please grab the link in the show notes. Thanks advance for your feedback. And it's okay. If you like somebody better than me, you can tell us. The cold courtroom you were talking about another thing in the book and how at one of the hearings, the elevator was down at Trump Tower, but he didn't want people to know. And so it was the one time he showed exercise in the last decade.
- [32:35]
B
I mean, this was just the wackiest story that I came across in reporting on the book. They're meeting before they have to go down to the Centre street courthouse in lower Manhattan in his apartment at the top floor of front of Trump Tower on, I think it's the 66th floor. And one of the two elevators goes out. And the Secret Service, for whatever reason, says that we cannot take the own working elevator. We're gonna have to walk down. And Trump walks the whole way without stopping. It's like some of his aides, like Boris Epstein's going down sweating and like, you know, he goes all the way down. They get in the motorcade and one of his aides says, God, that was incredible. You just motored down. Now, to be fair, it's on the 66th floor, but it's actually only 55 flights because, you know, he lies about the, the floors at Trump Tower. It goes from, I think it goes from 5 to 15.
- [33:26]
A
And you're going down.
- [33:27]
B
Yeah, but actually, but have you ever tried to go down that many? It's arguably harder. I mean, it's tough on the knees. It's like, I mean, it's, it's, it is a lot. So one of the says, dude, that was incredible because they're still running against Biden. You know, Biden's still the presumptive opponent. And it's like, we should tell everybody about that. I mean, can you imagine Biden doing that? There's no way Biden could have ever done that. And Trump swears them all to silence. Nobody may speak of this ever, because he's embarrassed that one of the elevators was out at Trump Tower. But what's great about this, I didn't know that at the time, but I do know what Trump said that day. This is when he came before the cameras. It was towards the end of the trial. And he said, we're going to be resting soon. And he said, by resting, I mean resting the case, because I don't get to rest.
- [34:16]
A
Nobody bitching. Bitching about the stairs.
- [34:20]
B
Yeah.
- [34:21]
A
You mentioned Boris was walking down the stairs with him. Boris Epstein, for people who don't know him, he's kind of like just big Italian fella with, like, the droopy cheeks. Russian. Russian. Thank you. Yeah. Big rut, but he kind of. He gives off a mobster kind of vibe, which is why I had to tell you my mind, with, like, the big jowls. There's a story that you were working on and others that he was shaking people down for cabinet positions, including Scott Besant, that he had, because Boris been with him forever, you know, since the early days. I remember Boris first from being, you know, back in the green rooms, where he was shilling for Trump and I was shilling against him back in the primary of 16.
- [35:00]
B
Yeah.
- [35:01]
A
So Boris been with him forever, been loyal, organized his legal team for all of his, you know, all the indictments against him. And so he's shaking people down once he wins for cabinet possessions, 30, 40 grand a month. And I, at the time, it seemed like that Trump even, like, swatted him down publicly, which is a very rare thing. It's interesting to read that, like, that that seems to have blown over. Boris is still. Boris still around. That hasn't this sort of corruption not really bugging the administration.
- [35:27]
B
I happen to be down in. Down in Palm beach. And when all of this was going down during the transition, I mean, Bessant went on the record, as did others, saying that Boris had tried to shake them down, to offer to represent him in the efforts to get into the Cabinet. And Dave Warrington, who we just spoke about, is now the White House counsel, but back then was the campaign counsel, and then counsel for the transition, actually wrote a memo detailing, you know, Boris's alleged transgressions and giving specific examples. The description of Besson is particularly vivid. And I actually learned that, you know, Besson basically tried to entrap Boris to get evidence of what he had done by staging a phone call and saying to him, you know, so you said you could help me out, you know, and Boris gets mad at him. And this is like, this is, as, you know, he's just about to announce as Treasury Secretary anyway. And Boris says, it's too fucking late. You know, I'm Boris fucking Epstein. And these quotes are in Warrington's memo. And the memo which was described to me in detail I quote, the last three paragraphs of it says that Trump should cease all contact with Boris. Epstein says that he should be fired from his. Whatever position he has in the campaign should not be brought into the administration. And the Trump should cease all contact. And if you don't do that, we risk a major scandal or worse, you know, legal problems. And for about 36, 48 hours, Boris is on the outs. John Solomon is the one that breaks the story. You know, John Solomon very much kind of a, you know, conservative writer.
- [37:03]
A
Maga.
- [37:04]
B
Sorry, maga Writer. And so, you know, it's clearly like a leak from people that want Boris pushed out. And Trump actually, you know, gets on the phone with Solomon and is quoted in his story saying, you know, it's a real shame sometimes, you know, people get close to you and they take advantage of you. It's a real shame. So Boris seems to be out. I happened to meet with Boris at this time. I knew these reports. I was trying to chase down the story. And I described this kind of crazy scene of me trying to get with Boris, and he's running around and changing the times and canceling on me. And it's. It's a. And then I finally meet with him down the hallway of a Four Seasons Hotel in Palm Beach. It's. It's this.
- [37:44]
A
This.
- [37:45]
B
It's this crazy effort to try to, like, try to get to the bottom of this. But what I had not realized was this is when he was actually on the outs and when he was clawing desperately to get back in Trump. And amazingly, he gets right back in, and he doesn't come into the office.
- [38:01]
A
Is it amazing, though?
- [38:02]
B
No, it's not. But, but, but, but, but, but. In. In any other context, it would be amazing. But, you know, but Boris is a very important figure. Even though he did, he doesn't come into the White House. He's the one that orchestrated all the stuff with the. With the law firms, you know, executive orders, you know, targeting the law firms and getting the law firms to basically offer, you know, payment. I mean, you talked about the, you know, the Godfather type stuff. I mean, you know, offering hundreds of millions of dollars in pro bono. And.
- [38:31]
A
And so he's still talking to Trump all the time.
- [38:33]
B
All the time. He's often on Air Force One. The other day I saw him, he was on Marine One. Do you know how few people go on Marine One? I mean, I mean, it's like, that's like your body guy, the first lady, the chief of staff. I mean, it's like there aren't a lot of extra seats on Marine One. And, you know, Boris is there. So, you know, with some of these people, you don't come on the White House staff because you're. You have one layer removed of any kind of possible oversight. But, you know, Trump doesn't. Whether you're on staff or not.
- [39:03]
A
One observation about this is. And about something that feels different to me in the second term, wondering what you think, and I think there will be a lot of reporting on this in the years to come, is I think Trump genuinely didn't want people to make money off of him in the first term. Trump never did. This was a thing from him back, going back ages. Now there feels like there's a little bit of a gold rush. The Boris story is, I think, constructive in that sense. In particular, he's able to. As long as you're loyal, I don't know. Feels like there's a lot of dealings happening out there. I mean, the Letnick kids are doing pretty well. The Witkoff kids, the Trump kids, you know, Jared and Ivanka on the outside. And it does seem like there's a lot more money sloshing around this time than last time. Do you think that's fair?
- [39:52]
B
There's definitely a lot more money sloshing around. I think that Trump still doesn't like the idea of people profiting off him if he's not, you know, it doesn't get a cut in some way. But there's just so much. And I think that one of the real stories of this administration, probably that it's going to take years after it's over to really get to the bottom of, is just how much of it was going on. I mean, when you think about the firing of the inspectors general, the Office of Government Ethics, which is responsible for, you know, kind of policing very basic ethics rules, was entirely gutted. You know, who was the acting head until recently of the Office of Government Ethics?
- [40:29]
A
I think Marco probably.
- [40:31]
B
No, you're very close. It was, it was. It was Jameson Greer, the trade representative. So this at a time when Trump was talking about 200 trade agreements he was working on, didn't quite reach that number, but. But Jameson Greer, pretty busy guy on the trade front.
- [40:46]
A
Yeah.
- [40:46]
B
Also had the second brief of being the head of the Office of Government. Anyway, he recently step down. We have a new acting Office of Government Ethics. It's Eric Uland, who is the Russ Vogt's deputy. So, you know, usually this is a pretty independent operation.
- [41:02]
A
Yeah. Right. So, you know, have they blown the whistle yet? The Office of Government Ethics.
- [41:08]
B
They'Re looking really hard. Okay, but when you have the President of the United states accepting a $400 million jet from the Qataris that is to be used as Air Force One, but then in January of 2029 to go to the Trump Presidential Library, when you have the crypto deals and everything else, yeah, you can imagine it sets, it sets an example for everybody else below. So it's not that Trump is okay with it necessarily, or even knows all that's going on, but I think this is going to be a story that'll be covered for a long, long, long time.
- [41:40]
A
And in the crypto, like the uae, like these deals are crazy and like this, the Biden, this guy gets a pardon. I. You've been covering this stuff for decades. The gap between, look, there have been corrupt pardons forever. The gap between Mark Rich and Spiro Agnew getting a paper bag, and there being a deal between an under investigation Chinese crypto magnate and the United Arab Emirates that yields billions.
- [42:06]
B
What did Blagojevich say when he was trying to sell Obama's Senate seat? This thing's golden. You think I'm just going to give it away? So I think the pardon power, the pardon power is the one power that is, you know, it's unchecked. I mean, he can do whatever he wants. I mean, who the hell knows what's going on? Do you remember the guy who paid match lap $400,000 in pursuit of a pardon in the first term and then the guy didn't get the pardon? I mean, did he get groped at least?
- [42:34]
A
I don't know.
- [42:37]
B
Not that I know.
- [42:40]
A
Didn't even give me a reach around after all that. All right. I have so much to get to. Running out of time. Rapid fire, though. So after this is Trump wins after JD had said, oh, we're not gonna pardon the violent criminals from January 6th gets backlash. Trump calls Julie Kelly, the blogger from American Greatness, to ask her what he should do, and she overrules the vice President, basically. Is that the nuts of this?
- [43:07]
B
I mean, sort of. So the vice President was asked on a, I think on the Fox Sunday show, who would get pardoned? You know, the president's promised pardon for the J6 prisoners. And Vance says something that sounds entirely sensible and reasonable, which is, well, we're not going to pardon the people that beat up cops. You know, we're not going to pardon the ones that committed violence. And suddenly Vance is hammered. The degree to which I didn't fully realize at the time because I wasn't paying attention to that part of the. Of the maga, you know, movement. But he was like, how could you say this? Everybody deserves a pardon. Everybody that was there and those that are accused of beating up cops, accused on the video, they were only defending themselves. They were provoked by the Capitol Police. And everybody deserves a pardon, especially those people. You know, Trump knows about that backlash, and he's getting ready to make his decision. He wants to do it on the first day. So this is in late January, before the 20th, but not long before the 20th, he gets this woman, Joey Kelly, on the phone. Actually, Charlie Kirk is there. Charlie Kirk's the one that actually makes the call and puts Julie Kelly on speaker at Trump's in Mar a Lago and says, who do you think we should pardon? What should we do? And even Julie Kelly. Julie Kelly is the one that. She wrote a book about January 6th. She is the leading advocate for the, you know, what she calls the J6 hostages. She's the one, by the way, is the first one to record the January 6th prisoner singing the national anthem.
- [44:30]
A
Oh, the choir.
- [44:30]
B
Yeah, yeah, the choir. The J6 choir. She's the beginning of that. It later gets done, you know, itunes thing with somebody else. But. But she's like.
- [44:38]
A
She is somebody else.
- [44:39]
B
Somebody else.
- [44:40]
A
You remember who it was?
- [44:41]
B
Tell me.
- [44:41]
A
I do. It was Ed Henry. I think it was Ed Henry that was the producer of that.
- [44:46]
B
God, Ed went on to such great things. I remember him in his roll call days. So anyway, even Julie Kelly doesn't think that he should pardon all of them. Now, she wants the violent ones pardoned, but she has, like, a couple, like, people that were there who had violated parole or something. But Trump goes in the direction she wants, which is virtually everybody, and then just decides, fuck it, everybody.
- [45:08]
A
The only thing Corey Lewandowski asked Donald Trump for was for Kristi Noem, his very close friend, to be the head of Homeland Security. And Trump gives it to him.
- [45:18]
B
Well, I mean, look, Corey was the very first campaign manager, total loyalist. He just wanted one thing. I mean, everybody has a request, right? I mean, some people. Some people might want passes.
- [45:27]
A
I don't think that David was going to get the Secretary of Homeland Security pick. I mean, it's a big job, you know, especially when you're planning a mass deportation campaign.
- [45:39]
B
The Kristi Noem pick was an outside the box pick, favorite of corn. And she was not on Lutnick's list of possible secretaries of Homeland Security. And there were a lot of discussion of various other people and somebody, you know, was at Mar a Lago, like everybody else, really surprised when it. By the way, the only reason why it wasn't more controversial, there wasn't more notice to it, is that you had all this other stuff going on because.
- [46:05]
A
The rest of the cabinet was so insane.
- [46:08]
B
And all that. Yeah, yeah.
- [46:10]
A
Did Trump ask Cory, do you think, about whether he had any personal engagements with the department, the Secretary of Homeland Security? Is that vetting, Was that part of the vetting, do you think?
- [46:21]
B
I think he actually keeps track of that kind of stuff pretty closely. So I think he was probably fully aware with probably some details. But somebody sees Trump at Mar A Lago, one of his aides and says, gosh, Kristi Noem, how'd you decide on that one?
- [46:37]
A
It was pretty important for Corey to have her there because, I mean, there was. I don't know if you remember the police report where he was at the Benihana, at the addiction awareness fundraiser where he was flirting with the wife of a Trump donor and talking about how he was, how he had killed people, how he'd stabbed somebody back in the day. So you don't want somebody to investigate. You want to keep the keep, depart DHS close. If that's your background.
- [46:57]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [47:00]
A
We the people in order to form a more perfect union. These words are more than just the opening of the constitution. They're a reminder of who this country belongs to and what we can be at our best. They're also the cornerstone of MSNow. Whether it's breaking news, exclusive reporting, election coverage, or in depth analysis, Mississippi NOW keeps the people at the heart of everything they do. Home to the Rachel Maddow Show, Morning Joe, the briefing with Jen Psaki and more. Voices you know and trust. Ms. NOW is your source for news, opinion and the world. Their name is new, but you'll find the same commitment to justice, progress, and the truth you've relied on for decades. They'll continue to cover the day's news, ask the tough questions, and explain how it impacts you. Same mission, new name, Ms. Now. Learn more at Ms. Now.
- [47:46]
B
Dude, this new bacon, egg and chicken biscuit from AM pm. Total winner, winner, chicken breakfast.
- [47:51]
A
Chicken breakfast.
- [47:52]
B
Come on. I think you mean chicken dinner, bro.
- [47:54]
A
Nah, brother. Crispy bacon, fluffy eggs, juicy chicken and a buttery biscuit.
- [47:59]
B
That's the perfect breakfast. All right, let me try it. Mmm.
- [48:02]
A
Okay.
- [48:02]
B
Yeah, totally. Winner, winner, chicken breakfast. I'm gonna have to keep this right here. Make sure every breakfast is a winner with the delicious new bacon, egg and chicken biscuit from AM pm AM P.
- [48:14]
A
M. Too much good stuff. I'm going to skip over the Merrick Garland apologia that you do. That's a hot tease for any Merrick Garland fans out there. You're going to have to read Jonathan Carl's book. You're going to have to buy retribution to read the Merrick Garland apologia. This wasn't in the book. But I had to ask you about it. I saw you. I forget what you were on. And I watched you talk about this Obama and there is also a lot of Biden stuff in there. We purposefully did not focus on this because breaking news for people listening. Tomorrow we're gonna have Kamala Harris on the podcast. I'm interviewing her tonight and now.
- [48:48]
B
This is huge. This is huge.
- [48:49]
A
Thank you. Actually. Well, before I get to your thing, do you have a. You're a questioner. What would you ask the former vice president if you were me tonight?
- [48:56]
B
This is immediately pops to mind and it's trivial. It's not the most important thing by long shot. But why the hell didn't she do stuff like this when she was actually vice president or when she was running for president? I mean, she was. I mean, I never got an interview with her, but I'm just me. But I mean she didn't. She did precious few interviews until they realized that she was losing and suddenly she was like, you know, doing a bunch of interviews. But it was like it was kind of a bubble wrapped campaign, a bubble wrapped vice presidency. And every interview she did was carefully, I mean, you're gonna have, I assume, a fair amount of time with her. That one big first interview she did, which she waited weeks to do after, you know, Biden dropped out, was with Dana Bash. And they were like, it's gotta be 20 minutes exactly. Walls has gotta be there. We're gonna.
- [49:38]
A
Walls was sitting in the chair that made him look really small. It was a strange setup.
- [49:43]
B
Then she couldn't do another interview until, you know, quite a while after that. And anyway, it's not why she lost. But I found that very strange because, you know, I did spend some time with her when she was vice president. It was curious, you know, away from the cameras, away from it all. She can be very engaging, very.
- [50:00]
A
Maybe that's what I was picked at. This is very. A Jeb trait as well. Awesome with the scotch and a table, you know, at the hotel bar after like sometimes not, you know. Okay, well if you have any other ideas, you're pretty good at this on the questioning side. If you have any other ideas between to now and tonight. Text me.
- [50:17]
B
I'll shoot you something. Yeah, Yeah.
- [50:19]
A
I did want to ask you about one thing that wasn't in the book about. And you go deep into all the Biden stuff. You said that Bruce Reed, he had the small inner circle. Anita Dunn and Mike Donlan Rachetti and Bruce Reed, basically. And like, one of the. And Hunter and Jill, and one of them said that they'd never even had a meeting about Biden not running. So that did jump to mind. The other thing that I notice, it just. You talk to Hunter a lot, and Hunter's pissed at the Obamas. And we've all seen now the Hunter interview with Channel 5 where he expresses all of. All the people he's mad at. You were doing, I guess, an interview where you said that Joe Biden and Obama happened to be at Cafe Milano together in Washington, D.C. not together at the same restaurant at the same time, the same day, and they did not greet each other.
- [50:59]
B
Yeah. So I got wind of this, that it was gonna be happening. So I was a witness to this. Go to Cafe Milano, and there are seats reserved at the bar, which is very unusual. Turns out they're reserved for Secret Service. And Biden was sitting out. Biden's table was ready for him, was with the general population out in the middle of the restaurant. And Obama was to be in a private room right to the left. When you walk into the restaurant, Biden gets there first, sits down. He's with a former senator, Mark Pryor, and an aide of his, and they're, you know, having their thing. And I went over and said hello. Of course. He looked pretty good, actually. He had just. He had just rang the bell, just finished his cancer treatment, and then his armored SUV is out front. And then I noticed that it has to move. And why does it have to have to move to make room for Obama's armored suv? There's only, you know, it's on a small street, this restaurant.
- [51:57]
A
Yeah.
- [51:58]
B
Yeah. And Obama came in and went right into the room. And I don't know if either one of them even made. Even saw each other, because Biden would have had a point of view on the. On the door to that room. But I don't know if he noticed when he came in. But, no, there was. There was no come over and say, how you been? Nothing. There's a lot of bitterness between those two camps. I mean, one thing I report in the book, and I don't know if that's why they didn't meet. I can just tell you the fact they were both there, they were in a restaurant. They weren't even that far apart at the restaurant. And their paths did not cross.
- [52:30]
A
I mean, that's crazy. I know. It was intention. That's crazy. I understand. I'm kind of mad at Joe Biden. I understand why Hunter's mad at Barack Obama, but he was his vice president for eight years.
- [52:41]
B
So let me just tell you something in the book related to this, which is after Biden drops out, calls Kamala, and Kamala's off to the races, and she's famously making all her calls to solidify her getting the nomination. Biden makes a bunch of calls that day as well, to thank all the people. I mean, now his political career is over, so he wants to tell his strongest supporters and the people that made it possible for him to be president, United States. He makes about 50 phone calls. Not one of them is to Obama. And I learned that Obama called him and Biden didn't take the call. By the way, Obama had also tried to call him in the week before he dropped out, and Biden didn't return that call either. So they eventually end up talking, but not until right before the convention. So weeks go by. Weeks go by and he doesn't talk to Barack Obama. You know, I mean, look, you hear it in Hunter. They think that Obama was effectively behind the George Clooney op ed. They resent that viral moment where Obama is leading Biden off the stage at that fundraiser in California. They see all of those Pod Save America type guys are out there beating the drums that Biden has to get out. They think that. And Obama's coordinating all that. Those are all former Obama aides. So there's a lot of resentment. But Joe Biden does not become president of the United States without Barack Obama. No, I mean, and obviously he hasn't become vice president. But I mean, it's.
- [54:13]
A
Yeah, again, look, be mad at me. Be mad at pundits, whatever. You know what I mean? Like, be mad at whoever you want. Be mad at David Axelrod. He's not mad at me. I'm just saying people in my business, that feels pretty, pretty crazy, like that the degree of animus would be at that level.
- [54:30]
B
And by the way, it's also with Pelosi, of course.
- [54:32]
A
I think that Mike Pence would. We actually know this because we saw it at the funeral. Mike Pence would say hello to Donald Trump. Donald Trump tried to kill him. Karen didn't. And we honor Karen for that reason here. We honor mother on this podcast. But Like Donald Trump tried to kill Mike Pence. They say, hello. So anyway, I mean, to be fair.
- [54:51]
B
It was Donald Trump's son supporters who tried to kill Mike Pence. I mean, Donald Trump himself.
- [54:55]
A
And Trump kind of cheered him on.
- [54:57]
B
He didn't condemn them.
- [54:58]
A
He rooted for it. I would say. Okay, well, sometimes it's painful to go through all this. It was painful at times to read the book. But there are good nuggets in there, obviously put a ton of work in. It's wonderful. And we do all. We live in the context of which we came before. We didn't just fall out of a coconut tree. And so it's important to kind of remember.
- [55:15]
B
And look, I wrote it because I see people rewriting this history as we speak. So I wanted to. I had some extraordinary access, and I witnessed a lot myself. And I thought it was important to, you know, write something not just for today, but 50 years from now if somebody wants to know what the hell happened. How did that happen? Hopefully my book will be on a bookshelf somewhere and they can. We'll still have books in 50 years, right?
- [55:43]
A
I don't think so, but it's a nice thought. Jonathan. Carl, I appreciate you, buddy. It's been too long. Good to see you.
- [55:49]
B
Thank you.
- [55:49]
A
Tim and everybody else will be back here tomorrow with Kamala Harris. See y' all then. Peace. Now that you're focused, I'm glad that you noticed.
- [55:57]
B
The realest nigga here is kind of.
- [55:59]
A
Chilly being the coldest Me and Timbo in that two door making our oldest now witness the chosen it's just different here. Monte Carlo knights let her throw the.
- [56:11]
B
Dice play in paradise Paul I know is white get the powder gone bitches love to shine shop levitate them all Mattress full of money let it break.
- [56:20]
A
The fall she used to fly on.
- [56:23]
B
The buddy pass they say when the.
- [56:25]
A
Money go you hope that your honey.
- [56:27]
B
Lasts I've been preaching since money cash.
- [56:29]
A
Ho and I promise I hardly see.
- [56:33]
B
You from where I am so hard to see. Maybe it's me and my arrogance who are you?
- [56:50]
A
Who are you anyway? Who are you? Who are you anyway? Who are you? We don't know you. The Borg podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown. This time of year, most of us are checking off our holiday gift lists. But identity thieves have lists, too, and your personal information might be on them. Protect your identity with LifeLock. LifeLock monitors millions of data points every second and alerts you to threats you could miss if your identity is stolen. Lifelock will fix it, guaranteed, or your money back. Make this season about joining not identity theft with Lifelock. Save up to 40% your first year@lifelock.com iheart terms apply.
- [57:44]
B
Dude, this new bacon, egg and chicken.
- [57:46]
A
Biscuit from AM PM Total winner.
- [57:48]
B
Winner, chicken breakfast.
- [57:49]
A
Chicken breakfast?
- [57:50]
B
Come on. I think you mean chicken dinner, bro.
- [57:52]
A
Nah, brother. Crispy bacon, fluffy eggs, juicy chicken, and a buttery biscuit.
- [57:57]
B
That's the perfect breakfast. All right, let me try it.
- [58:00]
A
Okay.
- [58:00]
B
Yeah, totally, totally. Winner, winner, chicken breakfast. I'm gonna have to keep this right here. Make sure every breakfast is a winner with the delicious new bacon, egg and chicken biscuit from AM PM AM PM.
- [58:13]
A
Too much Good stuff.