The Bulwark Podcast

Episode: Jonathan Karl: The White House Chaos Is Worse This Time
Date: November 18, 2025
Host: Tim Miller
Guest: Jonathan Karl, Chief Washington Correspondent for ABC News & author of Donald Trump and the Campaign that Changed America

Overview

In this episode, Tim Miller hosts Jonathan Karl for a candid and often darkly humorous conversation on the current chaos in the Trump White House, how it compares to Trump’s first term, deep-dive reporting from Karl’s new book, and revelations about the inner workings and dysfunction at the highest levels of government. The discussion ranges from scrutiny of Trump's handling of the Epstein files, rampant conspiracy culture, Trump's tumultuous interactions with journalists, and the new normal of ethical lapses, gold rush corruption, and historical rewrites.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Trump and the Epstein Files (02:09–07:42)

Skepticism about the Release:
Karl expresses deep skepticism that Trump will ever fully release the Epstein files, noting that "if Trump actually wanted to release the Epstein files, he could do it right now...He could have done it a month ago, he could have done it six months ago." (02:54)
Political Manipulation:
Miller and Karl agree the initial plan was to cherry-pick information embarrassing to Democrats. Karl points out the hypocrisy: "Back when Trump was really associating with Epstein, he effectively was a Democrat." (05:34)
Lack of Trust in Institutions:
Karl laments, "Even if they suddenly released everything in the DOJ files, are people really going to believe what they see?...the war on truth...has been almost successfully won by those who were fighting the idea of truth." (06:27)

Conspiracy Theories and Truth Decay (06:56–08:13)

Misinformation Ubiquity:
Miller shares stories about everyday Americans believing wild theories: "I hear from real people, not on the Internet...It worries me, honestly, because it’s like the inverse of 2016." (08:13)
Media Distrust:
Karl recounts how even the factual, photographic cover of his book is dismissed as fake by some readers.

Trump’s Attitude toward the Press & Authoritarian Threats (09:58–13:32)

Verbal Abuse of Journalists:
Trump called a Bloomberg reporter "quiet, piggy" when pressed about the Epstein files: "It actually ceases to even shock anymore." (10:18)
Abuse of Power & First Amendment Concerns:
Karl: "The idea that the President is suggesting a reporter can be prosecuted...gets to the heart of what the First Amendment's all about." (11:29)
- Notable Moment:
  Karl describes Trump’s veiled threats—“He wants the world to see reporters as his opposition...If you can portray reporters as simply the same as Democrats...everything that's reported...is just...fake news.” (12:00)
Trump's Ambivalence:
Karl notes how Trump will threaten him in one breath and then offer odd compliments the next: “In the very same answer...he said that I should take my beautiful wife out to dinner tonight. I was like, well, what if I’m on my way to the clink, you know?” (13:32)

Trump’s State of Mind: Anger, Obsession & Unpredictability (16:20–21:16)

Personal Interactions:
Karl describes Trump’s erratic, obsessive nature: “He says, ‘I watch specifically to see. And you just can't do it, Jonathan. The weave got me elected president.’” (17:23)
Narcissism over Victory:
The day after the election, rather than basking, Trump’s motivation is making critics admit his victory: “He just wanted to hear me say it, you know, say his name. I compared it to that scene in Breaking Bad...say my name.” (19:43)
Pathological Need for Validation:
Miller and Karl agree: “He wins, and then...he’s complaining about people not giving him enough credit for the crowd size at his frickin inauguration.” (20:21)
Is He Different Now?
Karl: "At some point the speculation [about decline] will be accurate, but he's actually been pretty vigorous...He does way more than Biden. People don't like to hear that, but it's just objectively true." (19:05)

Notable Quote

“Trump’s at a different ward at the hospital. He’s not necessarily in the memory ward...It’s his particular element of mental derangement that he cares about this stuff."
— Tim Miller (21:16)

Internal White House Chaos: Then vs. Now (25:29–28:14)

No More ‘Adults in the Room’:
Karl: "There is nobody on [Trump’s] staff trying to keep him within the bounds of anything...You have an administration that is moving at the whims of the President without any sort of process." (25:29)
White House Counselless Decisions:
Example of the Ukraine minerals agreement, where the White House Counsel was not even included, and the Vice President's wife, a Yale-trained lawyer, was asked to review international agreements:

"They don't even say, wait a minute, we can call Dave [White House counsel] in now." (27:17)
Comparison with First Term:
"It is a more consequential chaos for the country than what you saw in the first term." (28:14)

Classified Documents and Susie Wiles Revelation (28:36–31:14)

Susie Wiles Incident:
Karl reveals that Susie Wiles, now Trump’s chief of staff, admitted to special counsel investigators that Trump showed her a battle plan—a detail corroborating the classified documents indictment.
- "She should've been more active and more proactive in terms of getting Trump to return those documents..." (29:52)
Trump's Casual Handling of Secrets:
"He was using some of them as scrap paper...you write a note to somebody...and it's got that red top secret.” (31:14)

Corruption & the Gold Rush Environment (35:00–41:40)

Boris Epshteyn’s Corruption Allegations:
Detailed story about Epshteyn shaking down would-be cabinet members for money in exchange for access; Trump briefly cuts him off, but he quickly returns to influence.

"Boris is a very important figure. Even though he doesn't come into the White House, he's the one that orchestrated all the stuff with the law firms..." (38:00)
Generalized Venality:
Karl notes the shift: “There’s definitely a lot more money sloshing around. One of the real stories of this administration...is just how much of it was going on.” (39:51)
Gutted Ethics Oversight:
"The Office of Government Ethics...was entirely gutted. Who was the acting head? Jameson Greer, the trade representative." (40:29)
Foreign Gifts & Pardon Market:
Example: Trump accepting a $400 million jet from Qataris, and “the gap between Mark Rich...and there being a deal between an under investigation Chinese crypto magnate and the United Arab Emirates that yields billions.” (41:40)

Decision-Making & Cabinet Picks (43:07–46:57)

January 6th Pardons Policy:
How Trump overrode his own VP (JD Vance) about which Jan 6th defendants would get pardoned:

"Trump goes in the direction she wants, which is virtually everybody, and then just decides, fuck it, everybody." (45:08)
Cronyism in Cabinet Appointments:
Example: Corey Lewandowski successfully requesting Kristi Noem as Secretary of Homeland Security.

Insularity and Resentment in the Democratic Camp (48:48–54:29)

Notable: Biden-Obama Rift
Karl witnessed Obama and Biden at Café Milano—same night, same restaurant, didn’t greet each other:

"There was no come over and say, how you been? Nothing. There's a lot of bitterness between those two camps." (51:57)
Biden Ignoring Obama:
After his dropout from the campaign, Biden did not call Obama, even as he called dozens of others to thank them:

“Biden makes about 50 phone calls. Not one of them is to Obama. And I learned that Obama called him and Biden didn't take the call...” (52:29)

Memorable Quotes & Moments

Karl on Trump’s need for validation:

"He wanted to rub my face in it...I compared it to that scene in Breaking Bad, you know, where Walter White...says, say my name." (19:43)
On the new White House culture:

"There is nobody on that staff that is trying to keep him within the bounds of anything...It's a more consequential chaos." (25:29)
Karl on ethics and gold rush atmosphere:

"There’s just so much [money]. And I think that one of the real stories...is just how much of it was going on." (39:51)
On Biden and Obama’s broken relationship:

"They eventually end up talking, but not until right before the convention. So weeks go by and he doesn't talk to Barack Obama." (52:29)

Timestamps for Notable Segments

Trump and the Epstein Files: 02:09–07:42
Collapse of Trust & Rise of Conspiracy: 06:27–08:13
Reporter-White House Relations, Authoritarian Rhetoric: 09:58–13:32
Trump’s Private State of Mind: 16:20–21:16
White House Dysfunction, Now vs. First Term: 25:29–28:14
Classified Document Revelations: 28:36–31:14
Corruption, Ethics Gutting: 35:00–41:40
Chaos, Pardons, Cabinet Cronyism: 43:07–46:57
Biden-Obama Relationship: 48:48–54:29

Tone & Style

The conversation weaves sharp analysis, gallows humor, and frank, sometimes dark, reminiscence. Both host and guest riff on the absurdities and dangers of the current political landscape, using both reported facts and anecdotal color for a lively, if sobering, listen. There's direct attribution, sly asides, and the kind of unfiltered takes and banter that hallmark The Bulwark’s approach.

Final Thoughts

Jonathan Karl's reporting and insights, rooted in extensive access and firsthand experience, reveal a White House more chaotic, ethically compromised, and consequentially dangerous than even the first Trump term. Through tales both shocking and just plain strange, the episode underlines the stakes for American democracy and the importance of honest, fearless journalism in an era of misinformation and rampant institutional erosion.

(Summary by The Bulwark Podcast Summarizer. For direct quotes and granular context, see noted timestamps.)

The Bulwark Podcast

Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Trump and the Epstein Files (02:09–07:42)

Skepticism about the Release:
Karl expresses deep skepticism that Trump will ever fully release the Epstein files, noting that "if Trump actually wanted to release the Epstein files, he could do it right now...He could have done it a month ago, he could have done it six months ago." (02:54)
Political Manipulation:
Miller and Karl agree the initial plan was to cherry-pick information embarrassing to Democrats. Karl points out the hypocrisy: "Back when Trump was really associating with Epstein, he effectively was a Democrat." (05:34)
Lack of Trust in Institutions:
Karl laments, "Even if they suddenly released everything in the DOJ files, are people really going to believe what they see?...the war on truth...has been almost successfully won by those who were fighting the idea of truth." (06:27)

Conspiracy Theories and Truth Decay (06:56–08:13)

Misinformation Ubiquity:
Miller shares stories about everyday Americans believing wild theories: "I hear from real people, not on the Internet...It worries me, honestly, because it’s like the inverse of 2016." (08:13)
Media Distrust:
Karl recounts how even the factual, photographic cover of his book is dismissed as fake by some readers.

Trump’s Attitude toward the Press & Authoritarian Threats (09:58–13:32)

Verbal Abuse of Journalists:
Trump called a Bloomberg reporter "quiet, piggy" when pressed about the Epstein files: "It actually ceases to even shock anymore." (10:18)
Abuse of Power & First Amendment Concerns:
Karl: "The idea that the President is suggesting a reporter can be prosecuted...gets to the heart of what the First Amendment's all about." (11:29)
- Notable Moment:
  Karl describes Trump’s veiled threats—“He wants the world to see reporters as his opposition...If you can portray reporters as simply the same as Democrats...everything that's reported...is just...fake news.” (12:00)
Trump's Ambivalence:
Karl notes how Trump will threaten him in one breath and then offer odd compliments the next: “In the very same answer...he said that I should take my beautiful wife out to dinner tonight. I was like, well, what if I’m on my way to the clink, you know?” (13:32)

Trump’s State of Mind: Anger, Obsession & Unpredictability (16:20–21:16)

Personal Interactions:
Karl describes Trump’s erratic, obsessive nature: “He says, ‘I watch specifically to see. And you just can't do it, Jonathan. The weave got me elected president.’” (17:23)
Narcissism over Victory:
The day after the election, rather than basking, Trump’s motivation is making critics admit his victory: “He just wanted to hear me say it, you know, say his name. I compared it to that scene in Breaking Bad...say my name.” (19:43)
Pathological Need for Validation:
Miller and Karl agree: “He wins, and then...he’s complaining about people not giving him enough credit for the crowd size at his frickin inauguration.” (20:21)
Is He Different Now?
Karl: "At some point the speculation [about decline] will be accurate, but he's actually been pretty vigorous...He does way more than Biden. People don't like to hear that, but it's just objectively true." (19:05)

Notable Quote

“Trump’s at a different ward at the hospital. He’s not necessarily in the memory ward...It’s his particular element of mental derangement that he cares about this stuff."
— Tim Miller (21:16)

Internal White House Chaos: Then vs. Now (25:29–28:14)

No More ‘Adults in the Room’:
Karl: "There is nobody on [Trump’s] staff trying to keep him within the bounds of anything...You have an administration that is moving at the whims of the President without any sort of process." (25:29)
White House Counselless Decisions:
Example of the Ukraine minerals agreement, where the White House Counsel was not even included, and the Vice President's wife, a Yale-trained lawyer, was asked to review international agreements:

"They don't even say, wait a minute, we can call Dave [White House counsel] in now." (27:17)
Comparison with First Term:
"It is a more consequential chaos for the country than what you saw in the first term." (28:14)

Classified Documents and Susie Wiles Revelation (28:36–31:14)

Susie Wiles Incident:
Karl reveals that Susie Wiles, now Trump’s chief of staff, admitted to special counsel investigators that Trump showed her a battle plan—a detail corroborating the classified documents indictment.
- "She should've been more active and more proactive in terms of getting Trump to return those documents..." (29:52)
Trump's Casual Handling of Secrets:
"He was using some of them as scrap paper...you write a note to somebody...and it's got that red top secret.” (31:14)

Corruption & the Gold Rush Environment (35:00–41:40)

Boris Epshteyn’s Corruption Allegations:
Detailed story about Epshteyn shaking down would-be cabinet members for money in exchange for access; Trump briefly cuts him off, but he quickly returns to influence.

"Boris is a very important figure. Even though he doesn't come into the White House, he's the one that orchestrated all the stuff with the law firms..." (38:00)
Generalized Venality:
Karl notes the shift: “There’s definitely a lot more money sloshing around. One of the real stories of this administration...is just how much of it was going on.” (39:51)
Gutted Ethics Oversight:
"The Office of Government Ethics...was entirely gutted. Who was the acting head? Jameson Greer, the trade representative." (40:29)
Foreign Gifts & Pardon Market:
Example: Trump accepting a $400 million jet from Qataris, and “the gap between Mark Rich...and there being a deal between an under investigation Chinese crypto magnate and the United Arab Emirates that yields billions.” (41:40)

Decision-Making & Cabinet Picks (43:07–46:57)

January 6th Pardons Policy:
How Trump overrode his own VP (JD Vance) about which Jan 6th defendants would get pardoned:

"Trump goes in the direction she wants, which is virtually everybody, and then just decides, fuck it, everybody." (45:08)
Cronyism in Cabinet Appointments:
Example: Corey Lewandowski successfully requesting Kristi Noem as Secretary of Homeland Security.

Insularity and Resentment in the Democratic Camp (48:48–54:29)

Notable: Biden-Obama Rift
Karl witnessed Obama and Biden at Café Milano—same night, same restaurant, didn’t greet each other:

"There was no come over and say, how you been? Nothing. There's a lot of bitterness between those two camps." (51:57)
Biden Ignoring Obama:
After his dropout from the campaign, Biden did not call Obama, even as he called dozens of others to thank them:

“Biden makes about 50 phone calls. Not one of them is to Obama. And I learned that Obama called him and Biden didn't take the call...” (52:29)

Memorable Quotes & Moments

Karl on Trump’s need for validation:

"He wanted to rub my face in it...I compared it to that scene in Breaking Bad, you know, where Walter White...says, say my name." (19:43)
On the new White House culture:

"There is nobody on that staff that is trying to keep him within the bounds of anything...It's a more consequential chaos." (25:29)
Karl on ethics and gold rush atmosphere:

"There’s just so much [money]. And I think that one of the real stories...is just how much of it was going on." (39:51)
On Biden and Obama’s broken relationship:

"They eventually end up talking, but not until right before the convention. So weeks go by and he doesn't talk to Barack Obama." (52:29)

Timestamps for Notable Segments

Trump and the Epstein Files: 02:09–07:42
Collapse of Trust & Rise of Conspiracy: 06:27–08:13
Reporter-White House Relations, Authoritarian Rhetoric: 09:58–13:32
Trump’s Private State of Mind: 16:20–21:16
White House Dysfunction, Now vs. First Term: 25:29–28:14
Classified Document Revelations: 28:36–31:14
Corruption, Ethics Gutting: 35:00–41:40
Chaos, Pardons, Cabinet Cronyism: 43:07–46:57
Biden-Obama Relationship: 48:48–54:29

Tone & Style

Final Thoughts

(Summary by The Bulwark Podcast Summarizer. For direct quotes and granular context, see noted timestamps.)

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Jonathan Karl: The White House Chaos Is Worse This Time

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Summary

The Bulwark Podcast

Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Trump and the Epstein Files (02:09–07:42)

Conspiracy Theories and Truth Decay (06:56–08:13)

Trump’s Attitude toward the Press & Authoritarian Threats (09:58–13:32)

Trump’s State of Mind: Anger, Obsession & Unpredictability (16:20–21:16)

Notable Quote

Internal White House Chaos: Then vs. Now (25:29–28:14)

Classified Documents and Susie Wiles Revelation (28:36–31:14)

Corruption & the Gold Rush Environment (35:00–41:40)

Decision-Making & Cabinet Picks (43:07–46:57)

Insularity and Resentment in the Democratic Camp (48:48–54:29)

Memorable Quotes & Moments

Timestamps for Notable Segments

Tone & Style

Final Thoughts

Summary

The Bulwark Podcast

Overview

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Trump and the Epstein Files (02:09–07:42)

Conspiracy Theories and Truth Decay (06:56–08:13)

Trump’s Attitude toward the Press & Authoritarian Threats (09:58–13:32)

Trump’s State of Mind: Anger, Obsession & Unpredictability (16:20–21:16)

Notable Quote

Internal White House Chaos: Then vs. Now (25:29–28:14)

Classified Documents and Susie Wiles Revelation (28:36–31:14)

Corruption & the Gold Rush Environment (35:00–41:40)

Decision-Making & Cabinet Picks (43:07–46:57)

Insularity and Resentment in the Democratic Camp (48:48–54:29)

Memorable Quotes & Moments

Timestamps for Notable Segments

Tone & Style

Final Thoughts